S3E02.1 - Brynn Devine (Interview)

#Oceans #Finspan #OceansNorth #MarineBiology #Interview #BoardGames #Science

Summary

In this special bonus episode, we talk with Dr. Brynn Devine, one of the science consultants on Finspan. We get to hear what it was like helping the game's development, why monitoring fish and oceans is so crucial, how cold-calling can open surprising doors, and details on many lovely, lovely fish.

Timestamps

• 00:00 Introductions
• 04:16 How Brynn met Finspan
• 07:37 Being a science consultant
• 16:37 Balancing accuracy and gameplay
• 21:20 Favorite fish
• 25:30 Brynn's great secret
• 27:36 Wrap-up

Links

• Finspan Designer Diary (where Brynn is specifically thanked)
• Ocean's North 

Find our socials at https://www.gamingwithscience.net 

This episode of Gaming with Science™ was produced with the help of the University of Georgia and is distributed under a Creative Commons Attribution-Noncommercial (CC BY-NC 4.0) license.

Brynn's photo courtesy of Ocean's North

Full Transcript

(Some platforms truncate the transcript due to length restrictions. If so, you can always find the full transcript on https://www.gamingwithscience.net/ )

Brian  0:00  
Hello and welcome to the gaming with science podcast where we talk about the science behind some of your favorite games.

Jason Wallace  0:10  
In today's bonus episode, we will be interviewing Dr Brynn divine about her role as science consultant for finspan. All right, everyone, welcome back. This is

Brian  0:21  
Jason. This is Brian, and

Jason Wallace  0:23  
today we are joined by a very special guest, Dr Bryn Devine, who was one of the science consultants, maybe the science consultant for finspan. I guess we'll find that out. Dr Devine, Brynn, can you please introduce yourself?

Brynn  0:34  
Yeah, hi, Jason. Hi Brian. Thanks for having me. I'm Brynn Devine. I'm a fish biologist, fish scientist, and was one of three actually marine biologists who were consulting on the finspan game.

Brian  0:44  
Very cool. 

Jason Wallace  0:45  
Good to meet you. Thank you for coming on the podcast. When I was reading over the designer diary for finspan, they actually mentioned your name. In fact, it says specifically thanking you for all the endless insights about fish, from their abilities to their fun facts the accuracy of their art. So you apparently made an impression on at least one of the designers of the game. As soon as I read that, I was like, I want to talk to this person. We've had several game creators on this podcast, but we've never had one of the science consultants, one of the people in charge of getting the science right. And so I want to talk about that, but before we get that, let's talk about your credentials. So the internet says that your title is Arctic Fisheries Scientist at Oceans North. Can you tell us a bit about what is Oceans North? And then, what does an Arctic fishery scientist do?

Brynn  1:29  
Absolutely good questions. Yeah. So I'm currently working for Oceans north. So ocean North is a charitable nonprofit organization that's based here in Canada, and we do a variety of different marine conservation work in partnership with both coastal and indigenous communities across the Canadian Arctic and also the Atlantic region. So my role is Arctic fisheries scientist. Some of my job is providing stakeholder advice on some northern fisheries stocks, but a lot of my job is research based, and I have a long academic science research background, so I really love that aspect of my job. And I get to work with communities to help design science projects and research projects to help answer questions that they may have related to fish and fisheries in their local waters. So for example, I'm currently working on a project tagging sharks up in Nunavut, which is a region in northern Labrador and we're expanding that to look at other species, like cod and salmon, so looking at fish movement. So some of my job is more indoor cat vibes, going to meetings and in the office. And a lot of it, though, is, you know, get to go in the field, get to go to some amazing places, and get to work with really cool fish and really cool people. So 

Brian  2:30  
it's half indoor cat, half catfish. 

Brynn  2:32  
Yes, exactly. It's a good mix. 

Brian  2:34  
How do you tag a shark? 

Brynn  2:37  
Oh, good question. Well you catch one first. And then we're using satellite tags. So it's a little tag that you put either on their fin or in their muscle, and it stays on the shark for you can program it forever, long you want, but usually up to a year, about Max. And then it collects all the data on where they go, their depth, the temperature they use, and then it pops off the shark and relays all the data. 

Brian  2:56  
Really, it actually releases from the shark, and you collect it, or it transmits, or how do you

Brynn  3:00  
It transmit it all through the you like, pre program, the date you want it to release, and then as soon as it gets surface, it dumps it all through the satellite. So I can just sit at my desk here in Canada and I can just download all the information about the shark. It's really cool.

Brian  3:12  
So the sharks are showing off their cool, new piercing to their friends, and then just randomly, it just pops off 

Brynn  3:17  
exactly. I like to think it's a little accessory that they get to show off to their friends, and they enjoy having it, but

Brian  3:22  
that's super cool. 

Jason Wallace  3:23  
What's the purpose of a lot of this research? Is it all fisheries management, so figuring out appropriate catch, or some of it just basic science. We don't know how this fish, how it works, like, where it lives, what it behaviors, like, I realized in this area that the boundary between basic research and applied research is probably pretty fuzzy, but like, Where does a lot of this fit

Brynn  3:41  
absolutely so I mean, many regions of the Arctic are notoriously under-sampled. They're just remote. They're seasonally ice covered, so there's just not a lot of information. And for some of these species, like the sharks that we're tagging, they're sharks that are really taking advantage of the warming temperatures up there, and so they're pushing further and further north. And so then people in these communities that maybe they don't often see that that many sharks, but now they're seeing a lot of sharks. And so people in the communities have a lot of questions, how long are they staying? Where are they going? Where are they coming from? Why are we seeing these things? So it's really supporting communities to collect data that then they can have and they can use that data to help monitor their own marine resources and manage their own resources up there.

Jason Wallace  4:16  
Okay, and then getting more towards the game side of this. How did you get involved with finspin? In the emails beforehand. You said that was not part of your official job. That was something you're doing on the side. But how did you get connected with them?

Brynn  4:26  
I think it was kind of a weird way to get involved, maybe. But yeah, I guess it was 2021 back during the pandemic. Like many people, we were all playing probably more board games than we've ever played before, just not a lot to do when everything's closed down. I found myself with a group of friends that were really into board games, and one of our favorite games to play was wingspan. We're all biologists, so a bunch of nerds, and it was a really nerdy game to play. I had never seen that game before. Had never come across it, and I was blown away immediately, not only by the scientific detail in the game, like it's so cool how they've integrated that into so many components of the gameplay. And just aesthetically it's stunning, the artwork and everything. I was blown away. Love the game, but maybe after the second or third time playing it, I was like, "guys, you know, what would make this game so much better?", "if all these birds were actually fish? so much better." And I just kept thinking more and more about it, and I feel like I could just see so many similarities and how the game could be played, but also the demographics of the audience. I mean, for birders, you have the classic ornithologists. You have people who like backyard birds and bird feeders, and then you have this huge force of recreational birders that are really into it. And the same for fish, you know, you have ichthyologists like myself, aquarium hobbyists. You have all of these recreational anglers. I get to see the demographics kind of playing well for both groups, and then maybe after one too many glasses of wine, I was like, You know what? I'm going to email the game makers. And so I went on their website, and I just found, I think they had, like, a web portal to contact Stonemaier games. And so I was just like, hear me out. This is why I think this game would work so well for fish. Sent it off like no expectations to ever hear back from anyone. Lo and behold, I had a reply from Jamie Stonemaier, Stonemaier games, I think, like in 12 hours after I sent it. So lovely. And he was like, it's so great to hear from you. Like, I'm gonna let you on in a little secret. Don't tell anyone. It's weird you mentioned that because we're working on an aquatic version of wingspan right now. So I was like, No way. Well, I was like, if you need any like fish people. Let me know.

Brian  6:22  
I love that you describe yourself as a fish person. She is, in fact, a human I promise. 

Brynn  6:27  
I am a human. Yeah, they can see me on video.I'm a human. 

Jason Wallace  6:29  
We keep calling ourselves plant people. Brian, 

Brian  6:31  
that's true. Okay, okay, legitimate, legitimate. I do not actually photosynthesize 

Brynn  6:36  
We are people of our nerd realms, but, but yeah. So then and he contacted me back, and he was like, That would be great. I'll put you in touch with our game maker. So, yeah, that was years ago now. 

Brian  6:46  
What a wicked story. That's so cool that a cold call actually led to this is so. Also not the first time we've heard about how the renaissance of science and science accurate games sort of really comes out of a combination of wingspan of the pandemic. 

Brynn  7:01  
Yeah. honestly, it's such impressive games, yeah. So I think I really found or contacted them at the exact perfect moment. I think they were early enough in the development of the game, they hadn't really, maybe even thought of, like, what scientists they would bring on to look at the fish facts. And I just kind of inserted myself into that perfect moment. But I'm glad I did. It was really, really fun.

Brian  7:20  
I guess there's a lesson there. Don't be afraid to just send somebody an email after you've had several glasses of wine, right?

Brynn  7:20  
 Shoot your shot, whatever, like, just put it out there. 

Brian  7:20  
Jason may disagree.

Brian  7:20  
I'd say, if there's a lesson to the listener and it's like, Hey, if you have an idea to try, the worst they can do is either say no or just ghost you.

Brynn  7:36  
That's just it. Yeah,

Jason Wallace  7:37  
so working on the game, then, what was your role, like, what did you do as a science consultant here? 

Brynn  7:43  
I was very focused on the science aspect. And as you know, like, if you've played wingspan or finspan that a lot of the science is in the cards. So most of my science support was a little bit helping with some species selection where needed. But once we had sort of the fish, it was mostly helping to make sure that all the details on the cards was correct, fact checking all of the core deck of cards for the fish in the game. 

Jason Wallace  8:03  
And you've mentioned that there were two other science consultants on them. Did you have some sort of division of labor amongst yourselves, or was it that you were all doing basically the same thing, and they would essentially tally their scientist votes and go with whatever the majority said, like, How'd that work?

Brian  8:18  
Did they also cold call after several glasses of wine?

Brynn  8:21  
I don't know how they got involved. Honestly, I didn't have an opportunity to talk to either of them.

Brian  8:25  
Oh, really? you don't know your counterparts?

Brynn  8:27  
No, no, I don't. So I'm not sure how they divvied it up. I think they gave us all the opportunity. I think I was probably, I don't say the most annoying,

Brian  8:34  
 enthusiastic, 

Brynn  8:38  
yes, very like a stickler. And Michael would say the same thing too. I probably was his worst nightmare for most of the game.

Brian  8:44  
You were being reviewer 2. We need that.

Brynn  8:47  
I was absolutely Reviewer 2, yeah, but so I'm not sure what the other biologists did or how they got involved, but 

Brian  8:53  
yeah, well, they were Reviewer 1 and Reviewer 3. 

Brynn  8:56  
They're like, looks great.

Jason Wallace  8:57  
Okay, so fact checking, art, coloration, I assume fish sizes, where they live. I know this is one thing. When we were talking about the game on a normal episode, we were surprised, like, the whale sharks were all the way down to the deep, deep benthic zones, until I actually did a Google search, like, oh yeah, they can actually dive down several 1000 meters, apparently, 

Brynn  9:17  
yeah. And I love to hear that. That's what I want the game to be. I want people to learn cool, new things about fish they didn't know. 

Jason Wallace  9:22  
So during this process, how much of what you contributed were you able to draw from what you already knew, and how much of it did you have to do a lot of additional research in order to be able to find out about this fish you'd never heard about, or, I guess, given that you're an Arctic fishery scientist, all the tropical fish that showed up like, how much extra work did you have to do for this? 

Brynn  9:40  
I'm a big fish nerd. I've studied fish for quite some time. I It helps that I did my master's degree in Australia. So I did work for some coral reef fish. Then my PhD was more general deep sea fish focus. I'm working a lot in the Arctic now, but I've had the opportunity to kind of dabble in a lot of different types of fish. But I think, as you both know, the longer you're in academia, it doesn't make you more knowledgeable, it just makes you hyper-knowledgeable about one very specific thing or species. So I absolutely had to do some research. Sure. There were some cards that I could like, no research required. But, I mean, there's something like 15,000 species of marine fish, so I absolutely had to do some research, even things that I felt pretty confident about. I just really wanted to make sure all the information was correct. The last thing I wanted was for someone to find their favorite fish card in the game, and then there'd be some horribly wrong piece of information on the card. The game designers did a lot of work populating a lot of the cards, like, sometimes I would get them and, like, everything's there. So then it was really just going and making sure that everything was correct. And I mean, some of the information, you know, is like, coming from web pages like Wikipedia or other web pages where there wasn't, maybe references to it. So you know, you can't believe everything on the internet. I tried really hard to make sure that everything on the cards, from the depth, the name, the fact everything was corroborated, not just with web page material, but also scientific references. So I was digging pretty deep in the peer-reviewed literature. I've luckily amassed quite a few fish textbooks over the years. So I had a lot of materials to look but I was making sure that what's on the cards was present in multiple sources, but in like, citable, peer reviewed sources.

Brian  11:10  
So then there's a secret references cited section for Finspan. we don't know about.

Brynn  11:15  
It's all in my head. 

Jason Wallace  11:16  
I was gonna ask if you still have those notes around, because, yeah, that would be fascinating. We actually gushed over a game earlier this season called primates, where they actually have the references cited section at the end of the rule book. Every single card has a reference for it.

Brian  11:30  
Really, really cool. So it's, it's fun to know that. That's true for Finspan, too. And I love the respect of just thinking it's like, oh, wait a second. Every one of these cards, there's someone out there in the world who this is their favorite fish. They love this fish.

Brynn  11:43  
Yeah, I hope that's the case, but yeah. And some, like some of the fish in the game. I mean, there's some very obscure deep sea fish in it, which is great, but I mean, some of the species, they may only be known from a handful of specimens. So sometimes it took a really deep dive in the literature to find certain information or confirm certain information, but also to find a good visual for the artist to do their rendition for the card, some of these fish, you could search of specific species of like, say, Barbeled Dragonfish. And maybe the first whole page of google images will be a dragon fish, but not the species you're looking for at all, because there may not even be good photos of a lot of these fish. So sometimes it took a bit of a deep dive to find, like, a good quality illustration or photo for the artist use and make sure everything was accurate.

Brian  12:22  
Pun intended or pun not intended?

Brynn  12:24  
 of course, intended.

Jason Wallace  12:26  
Okay, so in this process, do you have some examples of where you had some sort of influence on the game, on the art, or on a factoid or something that you're particularly proud of? 

Brynn  12:39  
Yeah. I mean, I'm so pleased with how the whole game turned out and how well it's being received. I feel like everyone seems to be really enjoying it, and I'm happy I got to be involved, I guess, in terms of what I'm proud of, I mean, poor Michael O'Connell, again, he was the game designer that I worked most with, and I, again, was probably his worst nightmare when it came to 

Brian  12:57  
We're going to have talk to him and see if that's true

Brynn  13:00  
Yeah, talk to him. He will, He will corroborate all of this. Yeah, I was merciless in my resolve when it came to correcting the fish information. And he was so patient and understanding with, like, my fish neurosis. But it really helped that he was really supportive in making the game as scientifically accurate as possible as well. And that really helped. I think, you know, they appreciated how wingspan really achieved that. You know, even early on, they were kind of thinking of ways to make it different than wingspan. There, there were some suggestions of like, oh, well, do we even need the scientific names on the cards? We even need the fish facts on the cards? And I was like, Absolutely, you need to have, that's the best part of all of these games. You know, like to learn about the things that you're playing is really cool. And it was good. Like, Michael also was really supportive. So I think fighting to keep things like that in the game, and I'm happy, like, obviously they're all still in there, but yeah, I'm proud of that all the fish cards turned out the way they did. I haven't gotten any angry emails about incorrect information forwarded to me by Stonemaier games, so I'm hoping that is a good sign. I'm also really proud of the diversity of fish that's in the game. I think a lot of, like, I don't know, things you see with the ocean, it's often the beautiful coral reef fish, you know, that everyone loves looking at. But there's some really cool fish in this game that most people probably haven't encountered. And I appreciated that Michael, like, there was no fish too weird or bizarre for me to recommend. Like, Michael loved that. So I got to kind of insert some of these weird fish into the game that I'm really happy about. I mean, because it just, it makes me so sad. There could be people walking around out there that I've never heard of a grideye fish

Brynn  13:00  
That there are a fish full of knives.

Brynn  13:03  
Yeah exactly like or a little deep sea lizard fish. It just makes me sad. People could go their whole lives without knowing about them, yeah, 

Brian  13:26  
althoughI wouldn't want to encounter one, because, 

Brynn  14:09  
oh no, they're They're tiny. 

Brian  14:09  
I know, I know I'm way bigger than them, but they're so pointy. 

Brynn  14:09  
Oh, they're so cute.

Brian  13:00  
Okay, I'm gonna ask you the same question I asked our marine biologist on the finspan episode. What is it about the deep ocean that breeds nightmares like, why are so many deep sea fish just congealed nightmare fuel.

Brynn  15:01  
Jason, how dare you? First of all, hey, extreme pressure breeds some weird stuff. I don't know also, I mean, there's no light down there, so no one can see these horrors. Really, 

Brian  15:09  
okay. This is the same answer we got before. 

Jason Wallace  15:11  
Two scientists have said this must be just correct

Brian  15:14  
It relieves the selective pressure of having to look good

Brynn  15:16  
Yeah, that's not something anyone thinks about cause they cant see each other.

Brian  15:18  
it's more important to be able to eat.

Brynn  15:23  
Exactly who was the marine biologist you talked to? 

Jason Wallace  15:25  
So that was Emily Melvin. She's a PhD candidate at Duke University.

Brian  15:30  
Yeah, we kind of go back and forth. We talked to scientists, we talked to game creators, we talked to other science communicators. We'll talk to anybody who will actually answer our emails Basically, 

Brynn  15:39  
that's great. Well, I hope Emily didn't have any fish facts that she was upset about in the game. 

Brian  15:44  
Did you want to know sort of what came up in our conversation?

Brynn  15:47  
Yeah, sorry, I'm fully derailing this interview But 

Brian  15:49  
So in wingspan, you know, you can have movement between the environments. The thing that is sort of like, you know, with the verticality of finspan, is just that the fish don't move. The fry move, but the fish are kind of stuck there. So like, I can stick my whale shark in the twilight zone, and that's where it will be for the rest of the game. So that was the only thing. And like, we know it's a game, we know that you're making concessions to gameplay. So we have our little nitpick corner that's 

Brynn  16:14  
Fair take

Jason Wallace  16:15  
to be fair. The biggest nitpick that our other expert had is nothing to do with any of the fish color. That's true. The meeples are divers and not submersibles going down to the bottom of the ocean. 

Brian  16:16  
We did talk a lot about how you could send a diver to the bottom of the ocean, but not alive. You couldn't.

Brynn  16:32  
They'd be dead, yeah, yeah, that's that's fair. 

Jason Wallace  16:35  
So actually, Brian, so you bringing that up about like the fish being stuck there actually brings up my next question is, so your major goal was to try to make the science accurate. But in this area, with games, also happens with movies television, sometimes you have to make compromises in order to make a good product. A game that is scientifically perfect and really boring is not going to go anywhere. So are there any places where you were involved in having to make that compromise and saying, like, Okay, this is something we can bend in. This is something we cannot or was that mostly on the game designer side?

Brian  17:07  
Well, it sounds like you fought for keeping the scientific names. So thank you.

Brynn  17:11  
Yeah, thanks. Yeah. I fought for some things and, but, but yeah, like, a lot of the game design that was not my realm. So I wasn't really, I think early on, Michael reached out to me with questions about different aspects of the gameplay, of like, how science could be integrated, but it was very little and very like, on some very specific things in terms of compromise. I mean, yeah, like, again, I didn't have much control over gameplay aspects, but I will say, I think that there was a strong desire to make the game a little less complex than maybe some of the other span games to make it a little more approachable to a wider audience. And so I think they were really trying to find a balance of making it different from wingspan, but not too different from wingspan for all the people who really love wingspan. But ultimately, I think then through that, some of the science became a little more abstract. You know, I think, for example, the fish eggs is a good I think early on, I had lots of questions from the game designers of what are the different types of fish eggs, and does this fish egg makes sense for this species? And I think it just became way too hard to be descriptive, just because there's so many different reproductive strategies for fish that it was impossible. So ultimately, like simplifying it to just the fish egg that's in the game now, I think makes a lot of sense for like, gameplay. 

Brian  18:18  
So did you get to talk to them about how some sharks give live birth?

Brynn  18:22  
Oh, endlessly. Yeah. I'm like, you can't make that fish have this egg because they don't have that egg. Yeah again, that's all part of being a stickler and a nightmare. I think a big thing too, like just the overall concept in the game of, like, a bigger fish eat smaller fish. I maybe had to personally compromise, because I'm like, whale sharks, cant eat, blue Marlins Michael! 

Brian  18:42  
literally, almost the exact same thing that we talked about as well is just, again, look, we love these games. We love what they're trying to do. The nitpick corner is literally just that. It's just nitpicks. We're not bashing games based on these little things that we know are compromises.

Brynn  18:54  
Exactly yeah. So I think my like science heart, I wanted it to be like everything is exactly that's not realistic in gameplay. So yeah, I think it's great what they did with it. And so then I just kind of focus more on what was less abstract, science wise, which was the information on the fish cards. 

Brian  19:12  
One of the things that I love about finspan. Have you ever played the game photosynthesis? You said you're a biology nerd, so maybe you have?

Brynn  19:18  
no but it's on my list. I'm dying to play it. I've heard really good things about that.

Brian  19:22  
You should get it, again. It's more of a forestry game, but whatever, that's okay. 

Jason Wallace  19:25  
You should also listen to our episode on it was our very first one. That's true.

Brian  19:29  
Listen to all of our episodes first of all.

Brynn  19:31  
I listened to some. 

Brian  19:32  
 But photosynthesis, you're you get this wonderful feeling, this tactile feeling of this grove filling with and growing with trees. And in finspan, I really do feel like you're just populating this ocean, you know, all the little fry swimming around,the eggs. And it's just so satisfying at the end, when you get to look at your tableau, and it seems so full of life. So for vibes alone, 

Brynn  19:53  
for fish vibes alone, 

Brian  19:54  
that's right, it's very fishy.

Jason Wallace  19:57  
I want to go back a bit to the fish eating fish. So. So I guess fun science fact for our audience, reason a whale shark can't eat a Marlin is because the whale shark's throat is only like, what the size of a quarter, because it eats krill and such, 

Brynn  20:09  
exactly. 

Brian  20:09  
Is that true? Oh my god, it's a huge funnel. What kind of pressure has to go through the throat?

Jason Wallace  20:15  
So my next question is, are there examples of the opposite? Are there smaller fish that eat bigger fish. The only ones we could come up with on the episode are all mammals that gang up and eat larger fish. Are there actual fish, fish that do this?

Brynn  20:28  
Well, Jason, I'm so glad you asked. Let me tell you about some of the nightmares in the deep ocean, because this is absolutely what goes on there in the dark that you can't see. What comes to mind is this fish called the Black Swallower. It is notorious for having this, like, stomach that can extend. It's insane when they when they fed, it looks like they have this giant, little pot belly. They can eat fish up to, like, 20 times their body length.

Brian  20:52  
Oh, my goodness. 

Brynn  20:52  
I mean, I think, I mean in the deep sea, like, when you find something swimming by, you got to take advantage of it, whether it's bigger than you or not. So, yeah, I think in the deep sea especially, there's a lot of examples of fish that can eat, like any frog fish, angler fish too, like they can really distend their stomach to expand and accommodate prey much bigger than themselves.

Brian  21:10  
So they're kind of doing the snake thing a little bit. 

Brynn  21:11  
They're just Yeah, exactly, yeah.

Brian  21:13  
That's really neat.

Jason Wallace  21:15  
So I'm about to do something very cruel.

Brynn  21:16  
Oh no, oh no. 

Brian  21:16  
You know what this question is going to be, right?

Jason Wallace  21:20  
Brynn, what is your favorite fish? No, either in the game or in real life. 

Brian  21:27  
Okay, I'm just gonna say we always ask people this. But I do want to caveat. It's okay if you feel like you can't choose one, you can just choose a favorite fish, and that's actually fine. And also they don't know, so we won't tell them. They don't listen to the podcasts.

Brynn  21:43  
Yeah, this is like the hardest question. I get it a lot. I mean, I just adore so many fish. It's impossible to have a favorite. I will say there were favorites in general of mine that I was like, Oh, this needs to be in the game, so I'll maybe stick with those Greenland shark. 

Brian  21:56  
Very cool

Brynn  21:58  
 beloved species of mine. I've worked on them for many years now. So that was of like number one needed to be in the game for me,

Jason Wallace  22:03  
is that the longest lived vertebrate? Am I remembering that right? 

Brynn  22:04  
Yeah, we think it's the longest lived vertebrate. Used to be the bowhead whale for a long time, but there was an aging study that came out in 2016 that thinks that they could live 300 years or more. There's so little uncertainty with radiocarbon the deep sea and aging methods, but super long lived, really cool deep sea fish. That's one of the sharks that we were tagging up in Nunavut as well. So that one absolutely had to be in Oar fish was another favorite of mine.

Brian  22:29  
Also very cool. You're picking all of the top ones.

Brynn  22:32  
Thank you. Excellent fish, longest bony fish. Also inspiration, possibly for some of the sea monster tales of a long time ago, the sea serpents,

Brian  22:40  
and also the sea monsters in Subnautica, the video game Subnautica, supposedly

Brynn  22:45  
love a good Oar fish, and then literally any deep sea angler fish, love deep sea Angler Fishes. I did notice there were several of those. Yeah, several of them. And not just like the cute little round ones are great, but the really funky ones, like the Wolftrap angler or like the really toothy sea devils, so cool. And they're ones that I think a lot of people don't realize the diversity of deep sea anglerfish. You often just see the kind of little round ones, but they're all just absolutely perfect. So yeah, I'm glad that there's a lot of really out there anglerfish in the game.

Brian  23:12  
Well, I was gonna kind of try to help constrain this question. Be like, okay, one in the deep sea, one open ocean, one coral reef. But you kind of did that already a little bit. But evidently, not the coral reefs. Not into those?

Brynn  23:23  
I do. I love a good coral maybe the mandarin fish and coral reefs. Oh, I don't think I know that one. What's it look like? They're tiny and they're beautiful, like every color of the rainbow, gorgeous little fish.

Brian  23:33  
So are you friends or enemies with the invertebrate folks?

Brynn  23:39  
Enemies for life. No, I admire any invert specialist because, I mean, if I think the diversity of fish is insane, like the inverts are just It's wild. This is a feud I'm not aware of. I know of like Team fish team bird feuds in the past, but I haven't heard of the fish vs. invert, verts vs. inverts?

Brian  23:59  
It's just different specialties. I mean, we were speculating on what some expansions for finspan would be. And I think having the mollusk or the crustacean expansions would make a lot of sense. 

Brynn  24:09  
Yeah, those would be cool. Like, pick your poison, right? There's all kinds of things going on down there.

Jason Wallace  24:13  
Well, I think we're gonna start wrapping this up. Okay, so before we wrap up, like, is there anything else that you really want our listeners to know about fish, about the Arctic, about fisheries management, anything like this. I mean, you've got a platform, you might as well take advantage of it. 

Brynn  24:27  
Oh my gosh, that's a tough question. I guess, in terms of the game, I hope people see the game and see the insane diversity of fish that are in the ocean, you know, and really respect that. I mean, this is, you could think this is only a fraction of what species are actually out there. And that's like, just the species that we know. I guess in terms of biodiversity, there's still so much of the ocean that is unexplored that goes for the deep sea, many regions in the Arctic as well. And I guess just to drill home, what all of us know now climate change. I mean, I work in a place in the Arctic where people there see changes that are happening so fast. And we don't really have the baseline data that we need to really detect those changes, but also know how that will impact communities, people's livelihoods, access to food, and just how ecosystems will shift over time. So I guess just just a call for more conserving biodiversity and studying what we need to study to know how climate change will really impact things moving forward. I don't know if it was a good answer to that? 

Brian  25:21  
Yeah, I think so. I did want to ask though, Brynn, because we got your favorite fish, and I can assume, is Finspan your favorite game, or is there another game you wanted to sort of call out?

Brynn  25:30  
Okay, I hesitate to even say this, because it's going to be so embarrassing, but I I haven't actually had a chance to play Finspan all through I know, I know, and Michael would like kill me if you heard me say that. But I want to be clear, it's not for lack of trying. They sent me a copy. So nice. I bring it to my nerd friends house with like, the intent to play.

Brian  25:49  
What kind of nerd friends are these?

Brynn  25:50  
fish nerds, conservation nerds, but we go to play it, but then I open the game, and everyone's just like, oh my god, the cards are beautiful, and, like, the game is beautiful, and then we just sit around.

Brian  26:00  
You can't get people to play because they're too busy looking at te cared 

Brynn  26:02  
We're just like, looking at all the cards. Like, oh, this fish is so cute. This was so cool. Like, read this fact, read this fact, and we literally sit there for an hour doing that, and then it's like, momentum dies.

Brian  26:13  
And if you really don't want us to put that on, we won't. But if you would let us put that on, that is so amazing.

Brynn  26:21  
But it is like, I mean, the game is, I've heard such great things, and I will continue to bring the game to parties unsolicited, to try to force people to play it. But so far, people are just so taken by the beauty of the cards and the games and just the fish in general, which is which I love. And I could sit in a circle just looking at Fish cards, talking about fish for all of time. So yeah,

Jason Wallace  26:39  
well, if your job ever takes you near Atlanta, Georgia Then you know two people here that where we'd be happy to play finspan with you.

Brian  26:46  
Yeah, come to Dragon Con. Dragon Con is great.

Brynn  26:49  
What is Dragon Con?

Brian  26:50  
Dragon Con is a huge pop culture convention. It's held every year in Atlanta. It's really all nerd culture, but it also has all these tracks. So for instance, Jason and I volunteer in the science track, and we have panels about all different scientific topics.

Jason Wallace  27:03  
We've done slimes, we've done reproduction, we did

Brian  27:07  
a whole panel about grass, and there were like 70 people sitting there listening to us talk about grass.

Brynn  27:12  
Oh, my God, this sounds so cool. Yeah. I mean, I'm based in Halifax, and we have halicon here, which is like our little mini Comic Con. Yeah, they have like, a whole board game room, and I was really excited. This year, they had Finspan in there, and there's some people playing it, so that's cool.

Jason Wallace  27:29  
So your lack of playing is not for lack of trying. You have tried very hard,

Brynn  27:30  
yes, tried so hard, and I'll continue to keep trying, and hopefully we'll finally play it. 

Brian  27:35  
This has been really fun. It's such an interesting process to actually talk to a science advisor on this because they don't usually do that.

Brynn  27:42  
Yeah I mean, a lot of games don't have enough science in them to probably need one, 

Brian  27:45  
Even the ones that do. I remember we did the game Atiwa, which is about fruit bats in Uganda, based on an actual study. We talked to the scientists who's study inspired the game. They didn't talk to her until they already had the game done. It's just not part of the culture. It's just not part of the culture. 

Brynn  28:00  
Yeah, I guess you just got to start cold emailing game makers and just insert yourself into their games.

Brian  28:05  
Well, I mean, hey, what do you think Jason and I are trying to do at this point?

Jason Wallace  28:09  
We cold email scientists half the time, so actually most of the time. So Brynn, are there places where you'd like people to look you up? Do you have any social media handles or anything like that?

Brynn  28:19  
Yeah, you can oceans north. We have a has a great website, and we post stories to keep people updated on some of the works we do and a lot of the different places we do work. So can certainly look there for our ongoing tagging work up in the north.

Jason Wallace  28:33  
Yeah, and I saw even that Stonemaier made a donation to oceans north as part of their production to that, and like one or two other charities. Oh, did they it was listed in their designer diary or possibly the rule book. I don't remember which that they'd made a donation to oceans north and like one or two other charities as part of the creation of the game. 

Brian  28:50  
That's so nice.

Brynn  28:51  
I remember they had asked for some advice on, like, what ocean charities would be good to donate to. I didn't want to self promote, so I didn't recommend oceans north, but I glad that they did.

Jason Wallace  29:00  
That's very nice. Well, I think we're gonna call it there. Brynn, thank you so much for coming on. This has been a delightful conversation. 

Brynn  29:07  
Thank you. for having me

Jason Wallace  29:08  
Thank you for doing the good work up there, learning more about Greenland sharks and all the other stuff going on underneath the Arctic ice. And listeners, thank you for listening. Have a great month and great games.

Jason Wallace  29:18  
And as always, have fun playing dice with the universe. See ya!,

Jason Wallace  29:19  
 this has been the gaming with Science Podcast copyright 2026, listeners are free to reuse this recording for any non commercial purpose, as long as credit is given to game with science. This podcast is produced with support from the University of Georgia. All opinions are those of the hosts, and do not imply endorsement by the sponsors. If you wish to purchase any of the games we talked about, we encourage you to do so through your friendly local game store. Thank you and have fun playing dice with the universe. 

Transcribed by https://otter.ai