In this enlightening and empowering episode, we're joined by the inspirational Michelle Saudan, a beacon of light in the world of healing arts and the founder of Amanzi Wellbeing. Michelle’s dedication to transforming lives through trauma-informed approaches, coupled with her mastery in sound healing, breathwork, movement, bodywork, and meditation, brings us a conversation that's both healing and revolutionary.
In this enlightening and empowering episode, we're joined by the inspirational Michelle Saudan, a beacon of light in the world of healing arts and the founder of Amanzi Wellbeing. Michelle’s dedication to transforming lives through trauma-informed approaches, coupled with her mastery in sound healing, breathwork, movement, bodywork, and meditation, brings us a conversation that's both healing and revolutionary.
Episode Highlights:
- Michelle opens her heart about her personal and professional voyage into the realms of healing arts. With her story, she illuminates the path for those of us seeking a deeper understanding of our holistic health.
- The spotlight of our discussion shines brightly on the topic of stored trauma—how it's often the unseen force disrupting women's health, especially during the pivotal stage of midlife. From hormonal imbalances to a spectrum of other health concerns, Michelle sheds light on the shadows cast by unaddressed trauma.
- Have you heard of trauma-informed approaches but find yourself mystified by what they entail? Michelle demystifies this term, explaining how such strategies foster a safe environment for healing and liberation from the chains of past hurts.
- Seeking practical wisdom? This episode is laden with tangible tips and strategies. Discover how integrating sound healing, purposeful breathwork, mindful movement, and meditation into your daily life can act as pillars supporting your health and healing voyage.
- We wrap up our conversation with a surge of hope and a call to empowerment. Michelle reminds us that it's within our power to nurture our health, rewrite our stories, and step into a life marked by balance and vitality.
About Michelle Saudan:
Michelle Saudan embodies the essence of holistic healing. Through her groundbreaking work with Amanzi Wellbeing, she has dedicated over a decade to enriching the lives of individuals, especially women navigating the complexities of midlife. Her approach is one that intertwines the physical, mental, and spiritual dimensions, offering a roadmap to those eager to heal from trauma and lead a life filled with joy and well-being. Michelle's commitment goes beyond individual healing—she is passionate about fostering community healing, notably through her trauma-informed wellness retreats that spotlight Africa's unique wellness treasures.
In Conclusion:
Dive deep with us into this life-affirming episode as Michelle Saudan helps us uncover the profound impact of stored trauma on our health and guides us through the pathways of healing. Remember, the power to transform our health narratives is within our grasp, and with the right tools and wisdom, we can emerge stronger, healthier, and more vibrant.
Ready to start your healing journey? Join us on The Hormone Prescription Podcast and take the first step towards not just surviving, but thriving. Because your health isn't just about hormones—it's about heart, healing, and harnessing your power.
Dr. Kyrin Dunston (00:00):
G Mate is quoted as saying trauma is not what happens to you, but what happens inside you. Trauma affects all of us, and it affects our health. If it stays untended, we'll never achieve the brilliant health that's possible for us at midlife and beyond. Stay tuned as Michelle Sudan shares with you, how to use Compassionate Inquiry and other modalities to help ease the trauma that's hurting your health.
Dr. Kyrin Dunston (00:27):
So the big question is, how do women over 40 like us, keep weight off, have great energy, balance our hormones and our moods, feel sexy and confident, and master midlife? If you're like most of us, you are not getting the answers you need and remain confused and pretty hopeless to ever feel like yourself Again. As an OB GYN, I had to discover for myself the truth about what creates a rock solid metabolism, lasting weight loss, and supercharged energy after 40, in order to lose a hundred pounds and fix my fatigue, now I'm on a mission. This podcast is designed to share the natural tools you need for impactful results and to give you clarity on the answers to your midlife metabolism challenges. Join me for tangible, natural strategies to crush the hormone imbalances you are facing and help you get unstuck from the sidelines of life. My name is Dr. Kyrin Dunton. Welcome to the Hormone Prescription Podcast.
Dr. Kyrin Dunston (01:20):
Hi everybody, and welcome back to another episode of The Hormone Prescription with Dr. Kyrin. Thanks so much for joining me today as we talk with Michelle Sudan, a beautiful woman I met in Dubai who's going to talk to us about healing the trauma that binds you, that's hurting your health. Whether you know it or not, the majority of us pro, probably pretty much all of us have little T traumas throughout our life. I know we've talked on the podcast and during the Stop the Menopause Madness summits some about this, but we haven't really tackled it in a big way. How do you start to address this in a tolerable way that's compassionate and really helps you to understand how these little overwhelming situations in your childhood and life have affected your health and are affecting your health to this day. So we're gonna talk with Michelle about that.
Dr. Kyrin Dunston (02:18):
I met her when I was in Dubai. She's from Zimbabwe. She talks a little bit about her story, which is beautiful, as with many of the healers I met in Dubai. She has a multifaceted skill set and is just a gifted human being. And really I think it's her presence that's more healing than anything. You'll see what I mean when you hear her talk. I think she has a healing frequency that just heals people who are in conversation with her or listening to her. That's been my experience with her and I just had to have her on the show. I had some beautiful experiences with her when I was in Dubai. Looking forward to having more. I think you will love this conversation as we really talk about healing the trauma that's binding you that you might not even be aware of, maybe you are, and how to go about doing that. So I'll tell you a little bit about her and then we'll get started. Michelle Sudan is the founder of AM Manzi Wellbeing and a practitioner of healing arts. She's deeply committed to the transformative powers of trauma-informed approaches, found healing, breath movement, body work, and meditation. She's devoted to supporting and holding space for the healing and wellbeing of our global community via trauma-informed wellness retreats with a focus on expanding awareness of Africa's unique wellness assets. Please help me welcome Michelle Sudan to the show.
Michelle Saudan (03:45):
Thank you, Karen. I'm so happy to be here. It's an honor. Love you energy, and just happy to share.
Dr. Kyrin Dunston (03:52):
Mutual. I'm so glad that our past crossed when I was in Dubai and really your energy just spoke to me. You have such a calming presence. There's so much talk about trauma and trauma informed therapy. I think the world is really waking up to how we've collectively been traumatized and how it's affecting our health. I know that's been a part of my journey these past 10 years, and you just had a presence and a way of speaking about these issues that was extremely non-threatening and inclusive and compassionate. And I saw people opening up in response to what you shared in a way I hadn't seen before, and I very much appreciated that. I know I participated in inner child healing meditation that you offered at Eva experience in Dubai that was just beautiful and so many other interactions. I so enjoyed hearing you talk about your grandmother and how she would speak to you and speak to just the culture that you come from, the continent that you come from.
Dr. Kyrin Dunston (05:15):
It's steeped in you <laugh> in such a beautiful way. And so I was very excited to share you with my community because I think here in the US we women have been traumatized in ways that we don't even realize. And that was a big thing that happened for me in my year and a half travel outside the US was just seeing that, okay, yes, people have trauma pretty much everywhere, but it's very different in the ways in which, and the support systems and cultural differences in other areas that allow people to have a resiliency that I don't necessarily see here in the us. I mean, first off, the fact that it's talked about openly and collectively and discussed is so foreign to my US experience, particularly in the medical field where this really hasn't so much made it into the mainstream. It is starting to show that people are kind of left with not identifying, oh, this is talking to me, not aware particularly as a woman at midlife struggling with hormonal and other health issues. Oh, this is a part of my hormonal healing. Oh, what tools could I use? So you're left with a lot of women googling on doctor go, trying to find answers, maybe finding some answers, but really not a holistic, nurturing, supportive collective approach. So I'm wondering if you can start by talking a little bit about what brought you to trauma work and trauma healing. Hmm.
Michelle Saudan (07:10):
It's a lovely question. Thank you. Well, Kirin, I started my career as a bodyworker 14, now 14 years ago. And it came up to a point where a lot of my repeat clients would book sessions just to talk. I remember the first client, like it was yesterday, who booked a 90 minutes deep tissue massage. And he sat down and I said, well, you know, it is not first time he knows the protocol, you know, put the bath lay down. But he just sat and he said, no, Michelle, from today onwards, we'll do 15 minutes massage. 75 minutes we are going to talk. It started, and I was so confused because at that time, you know, 22 years old, I, I didn't know that there were such modalities like coaching and counseling and therapy. It doesn't exist in my part of the world in Zimbabwe where I came from.
Michelle Saudan (08:09):
So I started researching and, you know, came upon all these beautiful modalities and discovered that this was something I could, you know, serve my clients with. And then, then it was the topics that they brought as well, you know, topics such as suicide or harmful habits or, you know, depression, anxiety, which I did not know of, but they just opened up. And so I took it as my responsibility and also curiosity to find out more about these deeply rooted concerns that they were speaking to, and so that I could meet them at least halfway. And then that's how it started and it's been a roll on effect. And I remember watching a documentary called The Wisdom of Trauma by who is now one of my teachers, Dr. Gbo Mate, and his approached Compassionate Inquiry. And when I watched that, I just resonated with his teachings and everything that he spoke to in the world of trauma. And I decided to dive deep into somatic somatic healing when it comes to trauma informed practices and just an overall overarching theme when it comes to looking at trauma. And that's, yeah, that, that's the way it's taken me today. The nutshell.
Dr. Kyrin Dunston (09:31):
I love that because for so many reasons, the first, well one relates to this quote that you shared with me before we started recording, that I love by a h Almaas, only when compassion is present will people allow themselves to see the truth. I think that's something that I feel from you is from truth, but also peace, truth, inside peace. But the truth to me is peace. And that this man, bless him, <laugh>, he saw the truth of who you were and he didn't believe, oh, she's just a massage therapist. And he saw that truth in the compassion that you offered him, that came through your hands because you weren't counseling him. And he called that out in you. So he loved and respected himself enough to say, oh no, I see who this woman is. And he also saw what he needed. And then to basically stand for that truth, this is what I need.
Dr. Kyrin Dunston (10:34):
And so it, it's so beautiful. I do believe that we each have a unique purpose on this planet and a reason for being here. And that part of our health problems are the fact that we haven't recognized or allowed ourselves to know that truth. And particularly in America, we've tried to decide with our minds, oh, what's a good career? How can I make a good living and, and have quote unquote security with a good pension plan and 401k and a home and a car, and all this with our minds. And we haven't listened to our souls to allow us to be called forth from us what our true purpose and calling is. And so I love that story because it says to me, you were attuned and you were listening to what is the universe telling me that I'm here for what I'm good at? And he called that out in you. I just think it's so beautiful. Does that make sense?
Michelle Saudan (11:40):
It does. It's, it's similar to, you know, when you, when you reflect on the quote, what's so beautiful about it, Karen, is that if, if I came to you and I was pouring my soul and bearing everything that I needed help with, I'm gonna seize to see everything and see things as they are and be willing to accept them and see the truth. And not just the story, but the underlying truth of what's really happening to me. For me, if there is judgment, if I'm being seen to be that which is not right in my life, if I'm being seen through a lens of compassion, then I'm gonna be willing to see all the parts of me, the good and the bad. You know, the comfortable and the uncomfortable. So that truth, seeing the truth of what really is present, seeing the truth of the pain that's underneath, you know, whatever addiction, you know, if there's, because underneath the anger that I hold within my body, within my soma, I'm gonna be willing to see it all and listen to it being mirrored back to me when there's compassion present and I'm willing and I'm ready to open that Pandora's box.
Michelle Saudan (12:53):
'Cause when we open that box of healing, so much comes out that sometimes even shocks us. But if there's a compassionate witness or there's that sense of compassion within, then I'm, I'm not gonna be afraid. I'm just gonna be willing to open up that box load, I know what's inside, but I'm gonna be okay with it. 'cause The person in front of me is just mirroring that it's okay. And I think that really embodies what that quote stands for. And thank you for, for reflecting it back. I think it's so important.
Dr. Kyrin Dunston (13:27):
Yes. And something that has been really a part of my journey was initially I said, well, I want to work with women and help them with their health. So what's the biggest toolbox, most powerful toolbox I can get to access to help women? And so I said, oh, I'll get my medical doctorate. So I went to medical school and then I practiced that for many years. And then I saw that so many women, despite all the prescriptions I gave them and surgeries, I did hysterectomies, things like that, people were still suffering, particularly at midlife, including myself. And I said, well, we're missing something. Something's not right here. And then I discovered something called functional medicine. So that looked at the physiologic, biochemical causes of disease. So I studied that and that helped me transform my health and the women I was working with. But then after a while I started saying, wait a minute, yes, this works but not for everybody and why is that we're missing something.
Dr. Kyrin Dunston (14:31):
And then kind of went on my own healing journey and realized that the things that you help people with is what I was missing. And now I've realized, well this affects all of us, but very much in the US we have this mindset of, if I'm able to have a family and work at my job and be a productive member of society, this doesn't apply to me. Like there's very much this culture of don't talk, don't trust, don't feel like feelings are the enemy <laugh>. And I find in working with women with their health, feelings are everything. And that's really what stops us from doing the things that could help us with our physical health is the feelings that we don't feel, the traumatic history that we don't acknowledge, that we don't talk about. But people spend so much time and energy not talking about it and pretending that everything's okay.
Dr. Kyrin Dunston (15:39):
Put some lipstick on, do your hair, you know, what's that song? I got my hair done, dah, dah, everything's fine. Like that to me says American culture. And so a lot of what I spend time with women doing is trying to help them see that no, everything's not fine 'cause you got your hair done and your nails done. And that really avoids talking about the things that are underneath what's causing you to not follow the diet. You know, you should follow, you know, eating things that I say are not in your best interest. <Laugh> doing things that are not in your best interest and your energy provides kind of, I've seen people open up in a way that, well, and I, I must say that in the Middle East where I encountered you in general, people are more open to being aware of these things.
Dr. Kyrin Dunston (16:36):
I'm talking about it. And I was amazed to arrive there and find this huge conversation going on in the kind of public that isn't going on in the US particularly. Also, I saw that in South Africa about apartheid and it's very public. And people say to you right away, oh yeah, we talk about this. We have to heal from this as a country. So can you talk a little bit about how people come to realize that this is them? And I'll say one more thing. I know I've said a lot at the retreat that you gave her a treat and you had kind of a conversation with everyone that to my mind was about codependency. But you never said that word <laugh>. And you had people open up in a way that was so beautiful having this conversation in such a gentle way that women were realizing, oh yeah, this is me, but you never came at it. We come from a, in the US from a very top down perspective, oh, this is what the issue is and you need to da, and then people shut down. And no, that's not me. I'm not codependent. Can you talk a little bit about that? That's
Michelle Saudan (17:46):
A great question. It's like when you talk to a child, we have to realize that when people go through trauma, you know, like we all have gone through our own stuff, is that it causes us to put walls up and to protect and defend. That's a normal primal state of being when we're, you know, subjected to external forces that are, are not right, that are not safe for our being. So that when people are trying to heal, the last thing you want to do is, like you said, come from the mind because that's not gonna help anyone. It's what got them there. That's not what's gonna take them out. We need to come from the bottom, you know, and but come right from the heart center, that's what's gonna take them out. So in order to work with, with the trauma or to work with any of these circumstances that got people into the limiting states that they're in, then we can't be pointing fingers, for lack of a better word, it's gotta be different.
Michelle Saudan (18:51):
So that defenses are lowered and then we can work, then we have an open field. We don't have, we are not dealing with an army. You know, we are dealing with a peacemaking operation here that's ready to, to make amends and to see how we can fix things. And with regard to people talking about things you had said, you know, in South Africa, you know, people speak South Africa a little bit differently. That, and I love the movement and the energy, you know, that's building up. I can't say the same thing for other parts of Africa. I'm from Zimbabwe and Zimbabweans and South Africans, even though we share the same border is very different. Zimbabweans are still very much, we are very held back. I think we are 10 steps behind, for so many reasons. There's that fear, you know, that we can't speak, you know, after having, without bringing politics into this conversation.
Michelle Saudan (19:51):
But, you know, that has largely played a role, you know, lack of freedom of speech. It was never, never present from the time we won independence. But the South Africans had amazing leadership. Look at Nelson Mandela. Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>, you know, that, you know, for them to rely on. But for us, we can't say the same. So it's, we are still stuck in that time zone where people are not so open, at least not yet. And I hope to be one of the people with other sisters and brothers to change that narrative, not just for Zimbabwe, but for the continent as its own. 'cause It's time for us to heal, not just as a country, but just as a people regardless of where we come from. Mm-Hmm.
Dr. Kyrin Dunston (20:36):
Yes. And so is your approach something that you came by more innately from your origins and your ancestors? Or is it something that you learned?
Michelle Saudan (20:49):
It is something I would say I learned largely because I grew up in a community where we did not speak and you just had to go and do your job. Just if you had a roof and you had something to eat, whether it was once a day, you, you, you were better off. You just go and you continue because things could be worse. That was the mantra in our homestead. So, but then something happened and I have to thank them. I, I got a youth exchange scholarship at 16 and I went for the first time to the USA and it was such a huge culture shock because we were taught to be quiet, respect the teachers <laugh>. And if we had an opinion, we kept it to ourselves. And when I went to a public school in Santa Barbara, it was very opposite.
Michelle Saudan (21:48):
Children spoke their minds. And so it, it really awoke something in me. I said, wow, you know, I mean, if we had a bit more respect, yes we can do it with some respect, but I loved how the children were just open, you know, they spoke the family. I stayed with them. The girls spoke about, you know, their emotions, how they were feeling openly with the parents. And that wasn't something I grew up with. So when I went back to Africa, it ignited something in me and I said, well, you know, I'd like that to be different, you know, 'cause it was nice, you know, we learned, we spoke our truth. Nothing was held and they were still together even though they spoke opinions. So it was a reflection. And then it was also something I learned because I traveled to so many countries in my time and then said, no, well, I've been extracted from what I've known for so long. I think this is where we are missing. We are missing something here as a people, as a culture. And this is hindering us in so many ways, economically, mentally, physically, socially, emotionally. And this is one of the major missing links, at least from the country I know of. I can't speak to others in the world, but from what I know from experience. So to a long-winded answer to your question, yes, it was learned.
Dr. Kyrin Dunston (23:19):
And so what was the evolution? Because yes, there are, people do speak their minds and opinions in the US and there's this whole reservoir of pain that isn't discussed, the feelings underneath. I'm wondering, coming from what you described in your cultural background and then the kind of eye-opening experience in the US, what was the evolution that allowed you to really have this deep presence and ability to sit with people in their pain and feelings? How did that evolve and how did you learn that? Hmm.
Michelle Saudan (23:58):
Yeah. Sitting with the deep pain comes from having gone through a lot of deep pain and adversity yourself. So I've gone through my own deep adversities, not just as an individual, but with my family is a lot of pain we've gone through as a collective. And I think watching when that's being mirrored to you as a child growing up. And you can see maybe we were not able to speak about the emotions, but the physical presence of holding space for people was always there is always part of the culture. You sit, there's no words being said, but we sit with the person and we know what's going on, but we sit and we grieve, we hold that space. So seeing that, but also having felt my family hold me and very much the same way and do the same for them is something you could sit with anything.
Michelle Saudan (25:00):
You know, people came with so many things and my grandmother was a, a nurse by night, but she did traditional African healing in the community, you know, and people were always coming to the home with different things and just sitting, you know, we could, they could be laughing and talking, but you see there was some pain and there'd just be silence, you know, or the body posture, you know, with the rounded shoulders and the heads down and the hands together under the chin as though you really, you know, I I I hear you, I resonate with you. So seeing that it's just been able to, to help me as well, to be able to sit with other people. It's like, no pain is, it is too big for me to be with you. I might not have all the answers to, or, you know, support to help you unpack it, but sitting with you that I can do no matter what. It's,
Dr. Kyrin Dunston (25:58):
That's so beautiful. Just being present with it. And, you know, my experience in the US is that we can't sit with, with uncomfortability. We gotta turn the TV on, eat that, you know, sweet compulsive avoidance of being present to discomfort, hence all the compulsive ways that we medicate our pain that then affect our health. You know, rates of diabetes, <laugh> and pre-diabetes are soaring in the US over consumption of sugar, but also caused by stress, which affects how we process sugar, right? It affects our cortisol stress hormone. And it's interesting to me, a big part of what I help women with is the menopause transition. And it's a huge problem in the US but in other cultures it's not as much. And it's partly because of our lifestyle and the things that we reach for and the stress levels that we have. But it's very hard to get people to see this because in a capitalist culture, people profit off of our poor health and our compulsions. And it's such a part of the culture that we're taught when we're literal, oh, you fell and skinned your knee, have a cookie that'll make you feel better. How would you help someone compassionately lean into looking at the ways that they compulsively avoid their pain and feeling their feelings? Hmm.
Michelle Saudan (27:31):
Yeah. The first one, and I always use this word, is first compassion for yourself where there's no judgment. 'cause What leads us into the, the habits is then now the, you know, finding ways to cope with how bad we feel about ourselves, right? Mm-Hmm, <affirmative>. So it's okay, you know. So first I'll, I'll, I'll, I'll share an acronym that I share with many of my clients and something I use myself. So it's raining. So r stands for just recognize, just recognize what's going on for you. Okay? There's anger within me, there's guilt, or there's shame, or there's deep sadness. So there's grief. Just recognize what's there. And then the next thing is a, is allow, can you allow it to be there? You know, can, can the sadness be there without you trying to change it or whatever it is. And then I am in choir, just get curious, okay, what's really happening for me?
Michelle Saudan (28:31):
You know? And this creates space, you know, it gives you really a lot of space between the stimulus and you know, your reaction or your response. So get curious, okay, well what's happening? You know, what's triggered that? What's brought this on? And then the last part is to nurture yourself. So by the time you get curious and you say, oh, okay, well it was something someone said, okay, that triggered this belief. You know, there's this, there's something, 'cause this is, this is a pattern. Now there's space. You're becoming more conscious. And as Carl Young says, it's, it's until we make the unconscious conscious, it'll drive our lives and we'll call it fate. So here you are being conscious now, you know, by just doing this, you know, recognizing can you allow it to be with no judgment? Can the grief be there without me saying, oh, enough now, or have grieved for too long, I've been too sad, I've been crying for too long, or I haven't cried enough.
Michelle Saudan (29:34):
You know, can there be no evaluation on, on, you know, what's present for us? And then we get curious. And then the last part is nurture. Okay, what do you really need besides the cookie, you know, or the ice cream tub, is it a hug? Do I need to talk to someone? What's underlying? Because if it's, if it's a habit that doesn't serve you, it's okay, but let's look at what it's giving you. So when we look at a cookie, what are we getting? You know, we get dopamine, right? We circuits are wiring and firing. So from that, eating that satisfaction from the sugar. So what is that equivalent to? It's equivalent to a hug, quality touch. Yeah. So can I try that instead? And then it doesn't hurt me internally. So that's how the framework I use, it seems like a long little, long checklist. But when it's more conscious, it's just the way of being as opposed to, to doing. I
Dr. Kyrin Dunston (30:32):
Love that. So rain, recognize our recognize a allow, I was
Michelle Saudan (30:39):
In choir, so this was curiosity. And then n was is nurture,
Dr. Kyrin Dunston (30:46):
Right? And that quote from Carl Young, until we make the unconscious conscious, it will drive our lives and we will call it fate. And so many of the women I work with really have the mindset and attitude that my life is the way it is. I only have this health problem, this hormonal problem. Most of the women who come to me. And I just want you to tell me what supplements I need to take, diet to eat, exercise to do, to get rid of these symptoms. And not really seeing how unconscious patterns are playing a role in their health problems. And for so many of us, it is, I know for me, you know, unconscious patterns of this belief of I wouldn't be doing a good job as a doctor if I wasn't bleeding myself in my giving, right? I had to suffer in my giving.
Dr. Kyrin Dunston (31:41):
And then that caused me to overwork and overdue, which then affected my wellbeing and health. But it was such a compulsive, unconscious belief. And now I've kind of transformed that. 'cause I recognized it and it wasn't serving me. So I guess I kind of did this <laugh> rain. I inquired this is serving me, oh, it's hurting me. And then I didn't, couldn't show up my best self and then started to nurture myself and say, no, I, you know, I can only really help other women to nurture themselves when I nurture myself. And so I stopped doing that. And I find that a lot of the women I work with have that similar belief. They give till it hurts. What thoughts would you share about that?
Michelle Saudan (32:32):
My grandmother always used to refer to this. I don't remember the passage, but it was from the Bible and it was about my cup runneth over. And she always used to say, you know, I'm, I'm a nurse, but at the end of the day, you know, my cup has to be four and the extra is what I give you children's, what I give my patients. And that was always something she spoke. And we didn't understand what it meant as an adult, I do now, but when we are giving so much and get into something where we spoke lightly saying compassion fatigue, you know, is giving so much that there is an underlying belief. And that's something that is very old. So it's something we have to look at, you know, within ourselves. It's like, okay, where, where is this coming from?
Michelle Saudan (33:27):
Because it's okay to give, you know, we're all in this line of service. But when it's, there's an, an agenda because it's a, it's attached to something that, that doesn't serve us where we de be depleting ourselves. So there's some work for us to do. 'cause It shouldn't be that way where when it's, when it comes out that way, there's, there's something where it started is so, so my question would be, where did you learn that you had to give so much of yourself that, or you depended or you placed your value on how much you know you gave. So something you learned. So it's, where did you learn that? And can we look at it from a nonjudgmental lens and see what's happening?
Dr. Kyrin Dunston (34:15):
So yes, the compassionate inquiry, and I know that you work with Gabor mate and I wanna share a couple quotes that you also shared with me. One from Gabor, which is, trauma is not what happens to you, but what happens inside you and the other from Tara Brock, whom I love the deepest transformations in our lives come down to something very simple. We learn to respond, not react to what is going on inside us. And very much what I hear you talking about is first becoming aware that something's happening. I think this used to be me and, and so many women I work with, we're not, we don't even, we're not, we don't even recognize these internal thought and feeling processes that are happening. And then we try to shut them down because we don't wanna go there. So we don't allow it. And then we're certainly not inquiring <laugh> because I just need to put my lipstick on and keep it moving. And then we don't really know how to nurture ourselves 'cause we're not in touch with what we're needing and what we're wanting. But this idea of slowing it all down and learning to respond and not knee-jerk reaction, how would you help a woman to start to slow down and to start to respond and not react and really turn towards herself in this way?
Michelle Saudan (35:47):
It's, I think cultivating or having a practice of your own, you know, a mindfulness practice. And what I mean by that, Karen is not, not everyone needs to light a candle and burn incense and have a meditation cushion. You know, it, it, it can sound like making your own pot shrimp soup on a Sunday. And, and that's your moment and taking all the time. If whatever takes you out from the busyness, you know, of your external and really brings you in, then find that and use it as an anchor. If you love trimming your roses, let that be that moment where you say, okay, I'm gonna try and be as present as I can consciously and use this moment to, to really, I'm trimming the roses, but there's also, it gives me space and time just to be with myself, to slow down, you know, walking your dog, brushing your dog or your horses, just whatever it is, just find something that really anchors you.
Michelle Saudan (36:51):
We all have it, but maybe we just haven't consciously realized that, hey, that is my thing, you know, but you just unconsciously drawn to it, but you just didn't know that that is your, you know, your, your silver, your golden key to presence. So finding any practices that really bring you into the present moment to really slow down and anchor you can really make a difference. Because it's in those spare moments where you actually think, you know, well no, that didn't go well. What, what's wrong? You start questioning and give you space to contemplate if you are also ready to go there. Sometimes we can have all the space, but if we are not ready to go there, then all we'll have is just space. But, you know, so I hope that that helps. But just finding one's own way of taking that moment. But like you said, self-awareness is just do I realize that something's wrong and or something needs to be changed? Not wrong, I'll, I'll take back that word, but just something that needs to be changed. And if you just have that realization that no, something needs to change, then you have presence, voila, the rest will unfold.
Dr. Kyrin Dunston (38:10):
Yes, presence and awareness. And it leads me to a question that really has been reframed for me recently, and that is, what is self-love to you? How would you describe that to someone? Because we hear so much, oh, love yourself, love yourself. But really what does that mean on an everyday basis? What does it look like? What does it feel like? What, how do you do that?
Michelle Saudan (38:35):
Yeah. self-love. I, I think for me when I have a balance between authenticity and attachment, it means that I'm not stretching myself too thin to save the relationships around me. I'm not, I'm not putting myself on a spit as a sacrifice for the relationships I have. There is an element of me nourishing those relationships, but there's also a balance of me nourishing myself in equilibrium that for me, daily, because I'm in a relationship daily as all of us are, it's a very big thing because your relationships really test you. You know, <laugh> as my young aunt made a joke. She said, well, if you want to get to know your crazy, have relationships or go live on an island, <laugh>,
Dr. Kyrin Dunston (39:30):
You <laugh>.
Michelle Saudan (39:32):
So it's so self-love is, in what ways are you choosing you even in the daily mundane things? I think it goes beyond, you know, spoiling yourself with a beautiful breakfast and a spa day or meditation treat at a center. But it's just how are you choosing you every day and how are you holding yourself accountable? 'cause It's also gotta be self-Love is also that element of allowing yourself to see your own growing edge, because then there's evolution, you know, that is also self-love. Not just in the ways we give space for, for ourselves, but it's also in recognizing, no, you know, this is where I contributed to this conflict or, you know, I, I wasn't my best here. You know, I could have done better, I could have responded better. That I feel, oh, I believe is also self-love because you are so self-aware and you are growing. So where are you catching yourself to be accountable and responsible for actions that may not have served or hurt somebody else's? Also, self-love, if it makes sense.
Dr. Kyrin Dunston (40:44):
Yes. I love that. Balancing authenticity and attachment and how you are choosing you every day and holding and holding yourself accountable. So it's kind of like a responsibility to yourself and to others. And how do you hold both of these gently in both hands together? <Laugh>, that's kind of what I heard. You have a beautiful retreat coming up that I would really like to go to. So I'm gonna see if the universe would like me to go. So I'm setting that intention 'cause it would be my 60th birthday, and I've been wondering what do I want to do for my 60th birthday? And then I saw the retreat you have and I said, oh my gosh, what I love, love that. And I try to live my life by what would I love to have happen? Because in this life I only get one <laugh>. So I try to be guided by that. But do you wanna tell everybody about it in case they might be interested? We'll also have a link to your website that has the details, but tell everyone about it.
Michelle Saudan (41:50):
Mm-Hmm, <affirmative>. Thank you, Karen. Here, this retreat is called the Ancient Walks of Wisdom. And the intention was to, to really hone in on the holistic, forgotten languages of healing on the continent of Africa. But some of the oldest tribes such as the Himba and the Sam, who we know as the, you know, being the guardians of nature, they only take what they need. You know, they move from different ends of their lands with only what they can carry. But when, if I were to move, I speak to myself, I need a whole moving truck. I cannot carry everything in my hands. And it's a reminder for me, and I hope that it would be a reminder for those that come is that we forget to live lightly and not just externally, but internally. And this was the intention. And just to really look at how they live in unison and community with their children.
Michelle Saudan (42:51):
For example, one of the tribes we will visit is a Himba tribe. And the woman does not put the child on the ground unless he wants to, to walk and run. But she, he, this baby is latched with the mom 24 hours, you know? And eye contact and holding is something that we've lost in modern society. So this was just for us to come back. We are teaching this, we are learning this now by reeducating with modern studies and trauma, somatic healing. But when we look at it is something we already did in all our tribes, wherever we come from. So this is just to reconnect us, what has always been, but we've just forgotten. And this is what this retreat will embody. And I have one for local women. 'cause One thing I realized was that some of the retreats I was doing, which I canceled most of, was I didn't see my grandmother in who I was trying to represent.
Michelle Saudan (43:56):
I didn't see my mom or my great-grandmother, and they would have never afforded some of the retreats. And I said, well, I think I need to, to change this. And it gives me so much passion to now do some really low income retreats for just most women. So I'd like most women to be able to come and connect, like what we did at her retreat. I'd like everyone to be able to come because trauma and mental health is how it's seen right now in, in, in Africa is if you've, you know, in a mental health hospital, then that's when you need it. But if you don't do it again, put on the lipstick like you said and carry on. So I'd like to open that up. 'cause Our ancient elders, they did all of this, so they just didn't call it a retreat, but there was that support. So I'd like to bring that back in a way that suits us in the day and age we are living right now. So that's what I have upcoming and I'm really excited to share it and hopefully maybe I will come closer to you in the states and we can do some for, you know, for everyone's. I believe everyone should be able to have this at their fingertips.
Dr. Kyrin Dunston (45:13):
Oh, that sounds beautiful and I love your consideration for, for inclusivity at all economic levels. It's something that I struggle with in what I offer because to provide the type of services is rather expensive, and that means that some women are left out. And one of the ways that I can be more inclusive is by providing this podcast free. So I love having guests who come on and really I offer as you have this depth and perspective that they're not encountering every day and, and information and inspiration that they can use for healing. I mean, you sharing the rain technique, I invite everyone who's listening to start using that and just maybe keep it in your mind and the next time something happens that is disturbing or troubling or keeps coming to your mind, maybe just spend some time using that rain process of cognize, recognizing, allowing, inquiring and nurturing. That's a place to start. And I invite everyone listening also to look at, at Michelle's website and the offerings that she has, we'll have the link in the show notes that you can click. I thank you so much for just being who you are and for sharing yourself with us and the world. I think you've been a healing presence for me, and I know everyone listening to this show feels that as well.
Michelle Saudan (46:50):
Oh, thank you, Karen. It's been a joy. Thank you so much. Love to everyone listening and if anything, just remember it didn't start with you. I think we can love ourselves to healing by remembering just that. And yeah, I look forward to seeing you, Karen. If not at the retreat, I see you in Dubai or somewhere where God aligns us. But thank you too for the work you're doing.
Dr. Kyrin Dunston (47:15):
Thank you. And you know that what you just said, it didn't start with you. That's a whole other conversation, <laugh>, that we can have. So maybe we'll have that at another date. If you're listening and that intrigues you and you would like us to talk about that, please reach out to me and let me know and we'll see if Michelle might allow us to make that happen. Thank you so much for joining me today. Look forward to hearing your experiences with the rain process, which is really a beautiful process that Michelle has shared with us. Thank you so much. I will see you next week in another episode. Until then, peace, love, and hormones, y'all.
Dr. Kyrin Dunston (47:54):
Thank you so much for listening. I know that incredible vitality occurs for women over 40 when we learn to speak hormones and balance these vital regulators to create the health and the life that we deserve. If you're enjoying this podcast, I'd love it if you'd give me a review and subscribe. It really does help this podcast out so much. You can visit the hormone prescription.com where we have some free gifts for you, and you can sign up to have a hormone evaluation with me on the podcast to gain clarity into your personal situation. Until next time, remember, take small steps each day to balance your hormones and watch the wonderful changes in your health that begin to unfold for you. Talk to you soon.
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