We spoke to Dan Tingle from the National Grid about how he found the recent inspection under the renewed framework, Joel Dalhouse the lead inspector, and Denise Olander, Ofsted's Deputy Director of post-16 education, training and skills.
Cait Mellow
Hello everybody, and welcome to another episode of Ofsted Talks, the Ofsted podcast. I'm hosting the podcast this time. My name is Cait Mellow and I'm the Head of Engagement at Ofsted. I'm here today with Denise Olander, who is ...
We spoke to Dan Tingle from the National Grid about how he found the recent inspection under the renewed framework, Joel Dalhouse the lead inspector, and Denise Olander, Ofsted's Deputy Director of post-16 education, training and skills.
Cait Mellow
Hello everybody, and welcome to another episode of Ofsted Talks, the Ofsted podcast. I'm hosting the podcast this time. My name is Cait Mellow and I'm the Head of Engagement at Ofsted. I'm here today with Denise Olander, who is Ofsted's Deputy Director for FE, Dan Tingle, who's the Head of Development Programmes at the National Grid and Joel Dalhouse, His Majesty's Inspector from the West Midlands FE team. As we've recorded this, we've published reports for about 150 inspections so far under the renewed inspection framework, but let's focus on one in particular. We inspected the National Grid recently. So, Joel, you were the lead inspector. What sort of things did we look at?
Joel Dalhouse
So, we looked at apprenticeships and we were looking at, especially from a distribution point of view. It's something that there isn't much of in the country, electrical distribution, the apprenticeships organisations that offer that. So, we had a look at that.
Cait Mellow
Okay, so what sort of things do you look at when you're looking at an apprenticeship inspection? Do you talk to apprentices?
Joel Dalhouse
Yes, that's quite an important part of our activities, is really trying to understand their experiences. We try to get underneath whether they are developing that knowledge, those skills and those behaviours that would help them to be very successful in the career that they've chosen.
Cait Mellow
Dan, what did you notice? What sort of experience was it?
Dan Tingle
It was interesting really because we were inspected against the old framework for another part of our business in July and then inspected in December on the new toolkit. I think that the new toolkit has similarities to the old framework, but there's a much bigger focus on making sure that we're supporting learners that have barriers to learning.
Cait Mellow
So inclusion is a big part of the new framework. How does that look on inspection?
Dan Tingle
It's a challenge. It's a challenge because it's first to understand what you mean by inclusion, what you mean by barriers to learning. I think the first thing is for organisations and providers to consider that and what comes into the scope of that. One of the things that we found is having really good data to be able to identify those learners. And then you can really dig into what that means and what supports available at each opportunity.
Cait Mellow
Denise, what do you think a look into inclusion on an FE inspection?
Denise Olander
So I think Dan's right, we've always looked at those with SEND and those who have particular barriers to learning. So that was very much a focus under the education inspection framework. But under the renewed framework, we now have inclusion as a whole evaluation area, which we've never had before. So we are, we're grading inclusion as a whole new evaluation area. And within that, it covers a wide range of learners and apprentices. So the toolkit is what we use to identify the criteria and the standards in which we judge the provider against. So we collect evidence against the criteria in the toolkit. And once we've collected that evidence, We then use the picture that we formed through evidence collection against the criteria in our handbook. So we hope that most providers will be at least at the expected standard. It's a really high bar. It's providers doing exactly what we would expect them to do using taxpayers money. and making sure that learners, and in this case apprentices, are receiving high quality education and training. In the inclusion evaluation area, we identify learners with SEND, those who are vulnerable. Quite often that's because of the financial situation that they find themselves in. Maybe they're from low-income families. And then there's a wide range of other factors which could mean that an apprentice or a learner have some barriers to learning, things such as known to social justice, known or previously known to social services, mental health issues.
Cait Mellow
Help me understand this, Dan. So the National Grid are an employer and a provider. How does that work?
Dan Tingle
It’s a challenge. At the National Grid, we offer apprenticeships in a range of areas. It may be some really technical, bespoke niche skills that we have into deliver what we do as an organisation, or it may be some of the more support function type roles that we have in the organisation, maybe like a finance role. We will use training providers where they have the expertise, but in areas where we are the experts, and typically that's in sort of high voltage electricity, then we will be the training provider for those programs. And it's a really good model that we've got in place now. So for our transmission business that we have, when we were inspecting in July, outstanding result that we got in that inspection was 20 years of outstanding.
Cait Mellow
Wow. So do you find that people who you have as apprentices, do they stick around? Is the National Grid one of those places where people just work there forever?
Dan Tingle
Yeah, so I'm in my 27th year. I started as an apprentice at National Grid. And it's always nice that when we introduce ourselves in meetings internally, I'm never the most experienced in the room. And so, yeah, so people do stay here for a long time. It's nice, I've been at National Bridge Training Centre for 20 years now. The people that I've seen in senior roles in the organisation that started as an apprentice as well, it's really positive to see those people.
Cait Mellow
Did you get a chance, Joel, to talk to people like that on an inspection?
Joel Dalhouse
Daniel and myself had a number of conversations about the apprenticeship, how it's been designed, the rationale behind why they offer the apprenticeships they offer, why they feel they're the best place to offer those apprenticeships, what they're hoping that their apprentices get from that. And we also speak to people that the apprentices work with in the work environment just to see and get an understanding of those skills that they're developing and how they really compare to what would be expected and to see if they are really benefiting in that business. So it's really important to speak to people within the organisation just to get that sense of those skills developed.
Cait Mellow
So I'm getting the feeling that it's not just, oh, we'd better have an apprentice just to sort of tick a box. You're genuinely committing to really seeing that these people or, you know, the young people in your schemes are sort of progressing, they know what's happening, they know where they're going, they're aiming for something that's concrete.
Dan Tingle
Apprenticeships are embedded right from our strategic workforce planning processes that we have in place. We know one, 3, 5, 10 years out what sort of workforce numbers that we're going to require as an organisation. And apprentices are at the heart of that to make sure that we've got the right level of individual joining the organisation. And linking back to the previous question about do people stay at National Grid? The answer is yes. And one of the reasons is that people know there are opportunities to develop. that may be in the original field that they were recruited against. So I joined as a transmission substation apprentice. There would have been opportunities to progress in that field of expertise. And I chose to move into a training centre and I've been fortunate to move into the roles I've got. And again, Joel's answer about talking to people that have been apprentices, again, it's really easy for us to be able to put senior leaders in front of an inspector during an inspection. And it's just nice that a lot of them were apprentices and they can talk about their experience and why they're still there. And that in itself showcases that people do develop a national grid.
Cait Mellow
Yeah, I can see how reassuring that would be if you're a young person who's just starting out. Somebody who, you know, was where you are now a long time ago is now got all sorts of opportunities, which is great.
Denise Olander
The difference between the original education inspection framework and the renewed inspection framework. The key difference is the introduction of the inclusion evaluation area. And when we were thinking about the design of the new toolkit and the methodology, the inspection methodology that sits behind that, we had a very clear vision about inclusion. because that inclusion evaluation area helps us to continue to put learners and apprentices first, because that's what we've always tried to do through our inspection work. But it's really shone a light on the work that providers do. And it's helping us to break down even further the barriers that some learners and apprentices experience. And by breaking down those barriers, we are raising the standards. And it's particularly for the disadvantaged and vulnerable because we want to enable them to thrive in their studies. And our focus on those as part of this renewed framework is really, we're already seeing that that's really helping them to do so. we look at how the provider identifies needs, provides timely support and reduces barriers to learning. What we're finding is the nature of inclusion lends itself really well to further education and skills providers because we can already see some of the great, innovative, dynamic work that providers do and have always done on behalf of their apprentices so that they get that access to the education, training and teaching that they need. We're hearing that they're feeling valued and that they belong and that links very nicely to what Dan was saying about people. people staying within the organisation because they do feel valued and they do feel like they belong. And then as a result of that, we're finding that they then thrive in their learning. And really importantly, they achieve the apprenticeship and the qualifications that sit beneath that, at least in line with their peers. So in some of the very best providers, where the support is so effective, they actually achieve at a higher rate, the standard of work is higher, they progress through that apprenticeship at a much faster pace. So it's our opportunity really in furthering education skills to celebrate the great work that we knew all along, didn't we Joel, that our providers were doing on behalf of their learners and apprentices, whether they're 16 to 18 or whether they're studying an apprenticeship as an adult. and we see people studying apprenticeships well into their 30s, 40s, et cetera. So the most important thing for us is that the provider has that opportunity to show us and for us then to celebrate and validate the great work that they're doing. And we, as I mentioned previously, we focused on learners who had SEND or maybe were in receipt of high needs funding. And what we mean by that is that their SEN needs are so significant that they get additional funding to help them to study. And we've always focused on those. But under this framework, we've broadened our focus. So we always say to a provider, you tell us who are your apprentices or learners who are vulnerable or disadvantaged. Who are they for you? Because they will often vary according to the provider. But to try and be helpful in our toolkit, we've listed a range of learners who may find themselves with barriers to learning. So those who are socio-economically disadvantaged, they may have previously been on free school meals in the past six years, or they may be from low-income families. I mentioned those with SEND and those who receive high needs funding, or any other additional support to help them with their learning. They may have an education health and care plan, those who are known or previously known to social care, including those who are under the age of 18 in care and care leavers, those who are known to the youth justice service, and then those who have other barriers to learning and or their wellbeing. So they may have previously been not in education, employment and training, or they could be people who do not currently have a level 2 in English and or mathematics. So that's our starting point. of identification of those learners who may be vulnerable or disadvantaged. But we always say to Dan as the nominee, you tell us who those people are. And then when Dan will tell us who those people are, where they're studying, when they're studying, and then Joel as the lead inspector will use that information to do what we call a case sampling exercise. So we make sure that when we talk to learners, look at learners work, look at apprentices in the workplace. We make sure that the learners that Dan and the apprentices that Dan told us about are within the cohort that we look at so that we can make a comparison between those who the provider or Dan has identified as needing support compared to those who don't. And that's when we can make that comparison about the progress they make in their learning, the knowledge that they gain over time, their skills development, the standard of their work, how they contribute to the workplace. So we're constantly using that information to find out from them and their employer or their manager or workplace coach how well they're progressing against those who are not identified by the provider. And we do that really carefully because some people may find themselves from one of those categories I mentioned, but not need support. So it's really important that we aren't labelling those people. We use the information to begin the conversation with Dan. Dan will then say, these are the people that we're providing additional support to. This is what it looks like. This is how we assess them. This is how we're monitoring how effective that support is. And then we, or Joel, sorry, as the lead inspector, will make sure that we include them in our sample of people that we talk to, because we never get a chance to speak to every apprentice or every learner. So it's very much a sampling people, but using the information that Dan gives us to make sure that those people are within the sample that we choose.
Cait Mellow
So it sounds to me, Joel and Dan, like it's a sort of, it's not being done to you, this inspection, it's being done with you. Would you agree with that?
Joel Dalhouse
Well, I would hope Dan would agree, yeah. Yes, but I would say so. I think it's definitely working together. Right from the planning call, we sit down and we discuss the learners that are identified as those who have barriers to their learning. We then have a look at those within the apprenticeships in this case and then select a few which would give that sample of how that's working within the provider. So I'm not sure how Dan feels about it.
Dan Tingle
Yeah, 100%. From that planning call, the first planning call, the inspection is working together. So myself and Joel worked really closely together. And I spoke to Joel on a number of occasions about us wanting to showcase what we wanted to showcase as a provider. And that relationship is key to be able to do that.
Cait Mellow
Currently, the sort of the economic outlook for young people is tricky. Why do we think that an apprenticeship or training, in-house training with an organisation is a good option?
Denise Olander
When we talk to apprentices, whether it be with the provider that they're studying with or in the workplace, many of them prefer that style of learning. So it's around about 80%, what we call on the job at work, where you're learning at work and you're working and being paid. And then it's around 20% of their time where they come off the job at work and have dedicated study, training, skills development time. And for many, not just young people, but for many apprentices, they really like that approach where they are working, studying, learning in the workplace, receiving really great coaching, and they get the opportunity to achieve a qualification to whatever level they're working at. but they're doing it through the workplace with some studying and training when they're not at work, or maybe they're at work, but they're in a training centre. So it's an increasingly popular way of learning and achieving qualifications. We know it's a key priority for the government, but most importantly, it's a way of learning and working that suits the individual. They like the structure that the workplace gives them. They like the support and the coaching and the development and what is quite often a secure job at the end of it. Now in Dan's case, these people are already employees, Dan, aren't they? But for many of the apprentices that we meet, it may not necessarily be a secure job that they're in at the moment, but they're hoping that it will lead to that or it may lead to a secure job with another employer.
Cait Mellow
And I guess it's also a supportive kind of place to be with lots of other people who are in the same situation as you with a chance to make some friends and support each other.
Dan Tingle
Yeah, definitely. I know when I started my apprenticeship a long time ago, that I still know every individual that was on that programme, still got relationships with some of them that were on that programme. And that's typical for any sort of cohort of apprentice that is probably around in the UK, not just National Grid. But like Denise said, said, the practicalities of doing an apprenticeship, learning on the job is really good. Getting the experience that you need to do that first post role is really good. And getting the benefits of an employee whilst they're on programme. I know from personal experience at National Grid provides so many benefits.
Cait Mellow
I want to have a little plug for if you're a parent or a young person who's looking for an apprenticeship, please do have a look at our reports on the local offers in your area because they're really good, they're not just for the people who are at the college or the setting, they're for parents and young people to have a look at and to make sure that apprenticeship is going to be right for you or your child. There's lots and lots of information in our new style reports and they allow you to focus on something which might be really important to you.
Dan Tingle
Quick sort of appreciation for the work the inspectors are doing at the moment. It feels like the inspectors really do care about your well-being. Not that it feels like, inspectors really do care about the well-being of the staff that have been inspected. The nominee probably in particular, but it was evident that those past two inspections we've had, it really is clear that people do care. If I've just got time for one quick anecdote. For the inspection that we had in July, when I had the planning call, I'll not name the lead inspector, but she asked me if there were any reasons why we couldn't be inspected. And I made a joke and said, does Oasis count? because I'd got a ticket to Oasis that week. And we kind of had a little joke about it. And then when we got into the inspection itself, the senior HMI came along for one day and said, oh, so you're the one that is supposed to be going to Oasis. I said, yeah, I've forgotten about it now. It's gone. I'm quite happy to miss it. And she said, absolutely not. In no circumstances are you missing that. We'll finish everything up early today. We brought forward the final meeting of the day. And that happened because people cared about my wellbeing that it was a big thing for me to miss. So yeah, no, I just wanted to say thank you.
Cait Mellow
All that remains for me to do is say thank you very much to Joel, Denise and Dan. And don't forget to have a look at our reports if you're looking for an apprenticeship. They're really helpful. Join us again soon on Ofsted Talks.
