Hon. Elizabeth A. Gunn, U.S. Bankruptcy Judge for the District of Columbia and recipient of the 2025 American Bar Association Business Bankruptcy Committee’s Kathryn R. Heidt Memorial Award, joins Salene to talk about bravery, authenticity, public service, and the pivots that shape a life in law. She is Board-Certified in Consumer Bankruptcy by the American Board of Certification.
From being bullied in a tiny Oregon town to becoming one of the most recognizable voices in bankruptcy education (including the wildly popular “Bad Boys of Bankruptcy” podcast), Judge Gunn shares candidly about her journey: leaving BigLaw, taking a pay cut for purpose, balancing motherhood with the bench, and finding her voice as a leader.
A powerful, warm, and deeply human conversation about resilience, reinvention, and why the scariest decisions are sometimes the truest.
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NOTES
Today on The Pivot Playbook, Salene sits down with Hon. Elizabeth A. Gunn, U.S. Bankruptcy Judge for the District of Columbia, marathon runner, mother of two, scholar, podcast creator, and the 2025 recipient of the ABA Business Bankruptcy Committee’s Kathryn R. Heidt Memorial Award.
Judge Gunn is known for her intellect, her service, and her creativity — including launching the ABA’s hit series “The Bad Boys of Bankruptcy,” now the most-listened-to podcast in the entire Business Law Section.
But behind the accolades is a story of courage, reinvention, and authenticity.
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In this episode, we cover:
1. Her path to the bench—from a tiny Oregon town to Washington, D.C.
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Growing up as the academically gifted “outsider”
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Being bullied and persevering
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Discovering bankruptcy law through Professor Ingrid Hillinger
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Working BigLaw → regional firm → Virginia AG’s office → federal judge
2. The pivotal moment that changed everything
Leaving private practice, taking a massive pay cut, and betting on purpose over prestige — a scary leap that ultimately led to national recognition and her judgeship.
3. Running marathons, building playlists, and her global Starbucks mug wall
How running keeps her sane, what she listens to, and why Berlin and Sydney marathons mark chapters in her personal story.
4. Inside the “Bad Boys of Bankruptcy” podcast
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How it started
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The wildest stories (Seattle jewel-smuggling fugitives, Dunkin’ Donuts Ponzi schemes, hidden jewelry walls!)
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How storytelling makes bankruptcy accessible and engaging
5. What it means to be a first-generation lawyer and a woman on the bench
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Authenticity vs. “playing the role”
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The “mom finger” for mansplainers
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Being the only woman in the courtroom
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Raising confident kids while doing demanding work
6. Judge Gunn’s advice for:
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Distressed business owners: “Do NOT wait until it’s an 8, 9, or 10 crisis. Come in at a 4 or 5—before it’s too late.”
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Creditors: “Open your mail. Participate. The squeaky wheel often gets the grease.”
7. The Pivot Playbook Four Pivots
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Pivot she’s most proud of: Leaving private practice + applying for the bench
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Practice that keeps her grounded: Being a mom
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Principle that guides her: Treat people the way you want to be treated
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Person who changed her trajectory: Her mentor, Roy Terry — and her mother
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MEMORABLE QUOTES
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“Sometimes the best decision is the scariest decision. Be brave.”
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“I wasn’t successful until I stopped trying to be who I thought a lawyer should be — and just became myself.”
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“If they walked in six months earlier, we could have saved it.”
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“The bankruptcy code protects the people who show up.”
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“Treat others the way you want to be treated — it’s not complicated.”
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“This is probably my last job ever, and I love it.”
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CALLS TO ACTION
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Learn more about the ABA Business Bankruptcy Committee: https://www.americanbar.org/groups/business_law/about/committees/business-bankruptcy/subcommittees/
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Listen to Bad Boys of Bankruptcy podcast:
- https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/to-the-extent-that/id1498999428?i=1000737283314
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Connect with Judge Gunn’s work through NCBJ, ABC, ABI, and the Federal Bar Association
- Learn more about becoming Board-Certified in bankruptcy: https://abcworld.org
