The conversation explores how a bottom-up approach helps educators create hospitable, faith-filled classrooms through intentional rhythms and practices. Smith discusses redesigning assignments to build relationships rather than just complete tasks and emphasizes the importance of shaping learning experiences that reflect who students are becoming.
The Just Schools Podcast is brought to you by the Baylor Center for School Leadership.
Be encouraged.
Mentioned:
Everyday Christian Teaching: A Guide to Practicing Faith in the Classroom by David Smith
EverydayChristianTeaching.com
OnChristianTeaching.com
Just Teaching by Jon Eckert
Solutions that Heal by Alan Bandstra
Baylor MA in School Leadership
EdD in K-12 Educational Leadership
Jon Eckert LinkedIn
X: @eckertjon
Center for School Leadership at Baylor University: @baylorcsl
Jon Eckert:
All right, so welcome David. It's great to be able to talk to you about your new book, Everyday Christian Teaching: A Guide to Practicing Faith in the Classroom. So I just got it yesterday, so appreciate that. I'd love for you to talk a little bit about what brought you to writing this book. I mean, you've obviously written a lot of things.
David Smith:
Yeah.
Jon Eckert:
What brought you to this one right now?
David Smith:
Yeah. It was two experiences that really sparked the idea for this book. One, was just that the last book on Christian Teaching had circulated quite widely and a lot of schools had used it in professional development. And a couple of school leaders said to me, "Okay, we've read on Christian teaching, we believe you that this is a thing. We're on board, you've persuaded us. Now, how do we learn how to do this on a regular basis? We are kind of convinced of the concept, but how do we internalize this?"
And then I had a slightly more detailed version of the same conversation when I was doing like an online seminar for Trinity Western University for some of their faculty. And at the end of, I gave a presentation about some of the old Christian Teaching staff and some different ways of connecting faith and teaching. And one of the faculty said to me at the end, "I go to a church, have done for years and years and years. I teach at a Christian university, have done for years and years and years, and I would never have made the connections between the two that you just made. How do I learn to think like that?"
And I thought, it's another version of the same question. How do I learn to more instinctively think in a way that connects faith and teaching. Especially in a culture where so many of us have learned so deeply to keep those things apart, and that teaching is about tips and tricks and getting it done. And faith, it's about church and theology and so on, and it feels like we don't always have a great set of mental muscles for moving fluidly backwards and forwards between those two. So that just seemed like a great question, like how do you... Like don't try and persuade me of a philosophical position, but teach, like how do I learn to think about this on a regular basis? So that's what I was trying to address in the book, is-
Jon Eckert:
Yeah.
David Smith:
How to learn to think.
Jon Eckert:
Well, and the intro is, Invitation to Wisdom, which I love, especially right now as we look at everything that artificial intelligence can do, all the things that can be offloaded to different kinds of tools. We have more tools to help people learn than we've ever had. And it also feels like deep, meaningful learning grounded in something more than just tips and tricks is increasingly obfuscated. And so I love this very human invitation to wisdom. So talk about why you started there.
David Smith:
Well, it's partly Comenius' fault, 'cause he's my hero. For those who are new to Comenius, a 17th century major Christian education thinker, and he's got this textbook called The Orbis Pictus, the World in Pictures. And it's probably the most famous textbook in the history of schooling. It went through 250 editions, close to over a couple of hundred years. And the very first line of the book is, "Come child, learn wisdom." And I just thought that's a pretty interesting way to start a school textbook, that's not how most of our textbooks start these days, right. And so I sort of borrowed that as the start of this book. And his book starts with this image of a road that we're walking along as we learn wisdom and the Bible, wisdom's often spoken of in terms of a path or a way. It's something you walk in, wisdom's not just something you get by getting the diagram straight in your head, or getting the doctrines all lined up, or knowing the sentences in the right order.
Wisdom's something you have to learn how to walk in and walking is something that takes place over time and you kind of sway to the right and the left and it's got a rhythm to it. And again, that's sort of what I was going for with the book. So this book doesn't start with the philosophical concepts or the theology or the reasons why we need to do integration of faith and learning or that kind of top-down. It really starts with the rhythms of the classroom and how you start the class, what things you repeat, how you use silences, how you end the class, how you frame things. Those things that are happening to us every single day if we are educators, as we sort of walk through this life in the classroom.
And again, if we're going to learn to think in a way that habitually connects faith and learning, it has to happen in that context. It can't just be when we're sitting in the great lecture with some great Christian thinker who tells us how the world fits together. It's got to be while I'm in class, while I'm in motion, while I'm moving. So the Comenius image seemed to help me capture a little bit of that, that we are walking along a road, we're trying to learn wisdom, we're trying to walk better, we are not just trying to have better theories or better solutions or better fixes. We're trying to learn to walk in a way that's got a certain kind of rhythm to it, a certain cadence.
Jon Eckert:
Yes. And I love that you begin and end with wisdom. So when you get to the close, before you finish it out, you get back to the purpose. And throughout the book you have what looked like woodcuts from your hero and it's a cool through line throughout the book. So learning to be wise, that's really what we want from education, is how to learn to be wise and, so appreciate that.
And then, just the way you've broken the book down, it does really, and I think you said it even before we jumped on, it starts from the bottom up. Like what does this-
David Smith:
Yeah.
Jon Eckert:
Look like in the classroom? And then where is the wisdom in that? Where is the humanness in that? Where do we see our creator in that process? So-
David Smith:
Yeah.
Jon Eckert:
Can you talk a little bit how you came to that bottom up piece? Because I think a lot of times philosophers and people that are in the academy get accused of starting top down-
David Smith:
Yeah.
Jon Eckert:
Like, "You should do it this way." But I think what you're saying is here, this is how it is done, and then-
David Smith:
Yeah.
Jon Eckert:
Here's the wisdom in that. Can you speak a little bit about that?
David Smith:
Yeah. Oh, I could speak for hours about that, because there's something in this that's been kind of motivating everything I've done for 30 years, has been trying to push on that very thing, because. And I think a lot of it goes back to, I didn't grow up Christian, I became Christian as an adult. And then a couple of years after I became Christian, I became a teacher and then started figuring out how those two sort of connected with each other. So I started reading the Christian books and the philosophies and the theologies and going to conferences and listening to people. And I thrive on that stuff, I mean, I love a good philosophy book. I've got no objection to people writing great philosophy books.
But I also find that sometimes, as a classroom teacher and I was a language teacher, I wasn't like a religion teacher or even a history teacher where we could talk about big ideas in class. I was teaching languages, I was doing this very nuts and boltsy kind of thing. And I just found that sometime, even when I'd read the book on what a Christian vision of knowledge is or of the world or whatever, that there was still this gap of like, yeah, but what do I do on Tuesday morning with my twelve-year-olds?
And there's a moment I sometimes share with my students, and I remember, my very first semester in the classroom I was doing my student teaching and total newbie, no skills, and I made the rookie mistake of standing writing on the whiteboard for too long. I think it was a blackboard at the time, actually, writing on the blackboard for too long with my back turned to the class. And I turned around and a student in the front row had removed almost all of his clothes and was sitting there in his underwear, apparently just to see what I would do. And I just had this moment of like, they didn't tell me about this in teacher ed, just that the classroom is like the Wild West. The classroom is this place where very unpredictable, angular stuff happens and often the theory is, it's a thousand foot.
So I've always been fascinated in this middle space, of how do you avoid, either ending up reading a philosophy book that's at a thousand feet and it might be brilliant and it might be inspiring, but you're still not quite sure what to do on Tuesday morning. But I also don't want to end up in the other end of the scale, and there's lots of this out there, which is the, like, 50 tips and tricks to get you through your week in the classroom stuff which is... Sometimes you get some good ideas out of that, but it's also kind of brainless in terms of lacking like a coherent reason why we should choose these tips and tricks. It's just like this big bag full of stuff and you're just going to pick stuff out that looks like it works, but there's no coherence to it.
So for a long, long time I've been fascinated with how do we try to describe that middle space, where you want to do stuff that works, you want to actually live in the classroom, you want to actually teach, you want to actually help students. But you want to do it in a coherent way that's in touch with your beliefs and your values and your commitments and the way the world fits together. And that, it feels like a difficult but the most interesting space. And so much of our literature seems to drift off to one end or the other of that, like it's either philosophy of education, or else it's a hundred tips and tricks for teachers and how to rescue your classroom kind of stuff.
Jon Eckert:
Well, I want to go deeper into that idea and a couple things from the book, but you have to tell me, what did you do with the kid that's sitting there in his underwear?
David Smith:
It's actually one of those rare occasions where I think I probably did the right thing without having a lot of forethought.
Jon Eckert:
Okay.
David Smith:
I actually just laughed at him and invited him to go outside and put his clothes back on and then join us again and then carried on with the class.
Jon Eckert:
Yeah.
David Smith:
And therefore, I think deflated his attempt to-
Jon Eckert:
Yeah.
David Smith:
Capture everybody's attention for the next 15 minutes and make me look really stupid, so. Which I think was probably the right response, I think he was kind of-
Jon Eckert:
Right.
David Smith:
Hoping that I would sort of go ballistic or something, but-
Jon Eckert:
Yeah.
David Smith:
I just sort of basically said, "That's really funny. Now go put your clothes back on."
Jon Eckert:
Yeah. Well done. Well done.
David Smith:
Yeah.
Jon Eckert:
A novice win.
David Smith:
Yeah.
Jon Eckert:
So one of the things, I just was having a conversation with the head of school at a really great school and they're talking about how they integrate their academic success. They've been very successful based on test scores and everything, they've got great scores K through 12, and they're actually a school that's funded by vouchers, so it's an interesting model, in Milwaukee. And so they've been doing this for a long time. So they have a faith-based component to it, but they're also measured by state tests, so it's kind of-
David Smith:
Yeah.
Jon Eckert:
An interesting-
David Smith:
Yeah.
Jon Eckert:
Place to look at. And they're like, "We know we've got to get better on our faith integrations, we want to work on our K through 12 Bible curriculum, that's one of our strands. And this other strand is on improving academics." And my response was, those two things have to go hand in hand.
David Smith:
Right, right.
Jon Eckert:
Because you've got to have that integration about why do we do this well? We do this as a reflection of what our creator's given. It's all got to be woven in there. Have you seen schools that do that well? And what is a hallmark of that? So you've laid out all these great ideas here.
David Smith:
Yeah.
Jon Eckert:
Have you seen schools where that's happening really well right now?
David Smith:
Yeah, there are schools here and obviously there's a lot of schools I don't know, so I'm sure there are schools-
Jon Eckert:
Right.
David Smith:
Out there that are doing brilliantly, that are just not ones-
Jon Eckert:
Right.
David Smith:
I happened to have visited. But the schools that I've visited that seem to be doing really well at this, seem to more often be schools that have really set aside intentional time to think about it together. That's the one simple thing I would put my finger on, it's the schools that have got time set aside each week for a professional learning community, where they're actually talking about how to integrate their values with their teaching and they're not just doing admin things or curriculum things or whatever. So I think this is very dependent on being able to build a reflective community where you can talk to each other about how your values are infusing your teaching and learning choices.
Something I've been suggesting to schools for a while, is like why don't you take one of your professional development days each year and just cancel it and just tell your teachers to go to the park or whatever, but then say, and now you owe me six hours. And what you're going to do with that, is you're going to get together with three of your colleagues and for six months you're going to meet one hour a month at the local coffee shop with a nice pastry and a nice drink. And you're just going to talk about three things, what was the best thing that happened in my classroom in the last month where things really felt integrated? And what was the worst thing that happened in my classroom last month? And what's one thing I want to change in the next month? And just talk about those three things for an hour. And how much learning might you get out of that in terms of questioning your own practices and moving them forward?
So to me, it's less about getting the perfect model and more about, can you build the kind of community where you question what you're doing together and can then start to make adjustments? And you can be constantly asking, why do we do it this way? Is it just because we did it that way last year? And how does this actually reflect what we say we're about on the mission statement?
I mean, if I can throw in an example here, interrupt me if I talk for too long. But to throw in an example that's in the book, is a perfect example of this kind of, again, finding this middle space and questioning things. I was having breakfast a few years ago with some teachers at my daughter's school when she was in high school. And I was just venting, I wasn't even trying to be constructive, I was just complaining about the general state of the world.
And what I was complaining about was that I'd noticed that during the vacations we got our daughter back, that she was articulate and she shared her life with us and we talked about things. And as soon as the semester started, it was down to monosyllables, and it wasn't because we had a bad relationship, it's just because she was tired all the time. And because school was colonizing her every waking hour, she would get up at 6:30 in the morning, to be on a bus by 7:20, to be in school by quarter to eight. We get on another bus at something after three and get home by four-something, and then we'd have supper together at five. Wasn't always our most brilliant hour as a family because my daughter just had long tiring days, and then she'd have four hours of homework.
And what had struck me was that the homework was always designed to be done alone. And so she would disappear to her room with a pile of books and a laptop and the only role for me as a parent, was to either nag her to get it done or tell her to quit and go to bed. And after we had this conversation over breakfast, and I just complained about this, the teachers who'd been at that breakfast started surprising me. So a week later, she turned up in the family room one night at eight o'clock and she said, "Do you guys have some time, because I've got this weird homework from my religion teacher? I've got to talk to you for half an hour about whether you grew up Christian, or became Christian, or how you relate to all of that, because we're going to talk about it in religion class tomorrow, and you've got to sign this piece of paper to say that we talked about it for half an hour."
And then another teacher sent home a homework where we had to choose a TV show and watch it together and then discuss what its value system was, and whether we thought this was a fruitful way to spend our time and they were going to discuss this in the media studies class. And there was a whole string of these from different teachers.
But one of the things that struck me about this, was that this was a school whose official philosophy was that God has given primary responsibility for children to their parents, and the Christian school comes alongside parents to help them raise their children in a Godly way. And yet as a parent, the only role I was being given was to nag about homework and to sell food at sports games. And until this point, I wasn't being invited into the learning process, and what's more, the school was occupying, not only the whole day but the whole evening with tasks that the student was designed to do on their own. And as soon as we started asking this question, "Well, could you design homework activities that actually strengthen community and actually build relationships between people?" Suddenly you've got something that is a little more in tune with what the school says it's official philosophy is.
My daughter said she learned more from them from the standard fill out a worksheet kind of homeworks. So it was actually beneficial for learning.
Jon Eckert:
Yeah.
David Smith:
And it didn't necessarily involve throwing a Bible verse on all the worksheets. This is just more about trying to actually get the practices to line up with the values. So that's the kind of thing I'm sort of constantly fishing for, because we all think we know what homework is supposed to look like, so we all just keep doing what we think homework is. But maybe sometimes it doesn't look like that.
Jon Eckert:
Well, and I think that notion about homework is shifting significantly post-covid and what teachers actually assume students are doing on their own. Because I think the assumption is, that has been, that they're doing it on their own, I think that's a pretty false assumption now.
David Smith:
Yeah.
Jon Eckert:
That they would be doing anything on their own if you consider the tools that are available to them to get rote homework done. The thing I love about your example, is that homework assignment cannot be offloaded to ChatGPT, or if it was-
David Smith:
Right.
Jon Eckert:
It'd be, probably somewhat comical how ChatGPT might answer that question about how you came to faith and where your family, you know.
David Smith:
Yeah.
Jon Eckert:
So I think there is a benefit to that kind of homework and building community, because again, I think even with homework now, we need to lean into the humanness of what we do. Because there are a lot of other tools for getting assignments done and not always crediting the source of that assignment-
David Smith:
Yeah.
Jon Eckert:
Whether that's a friend, Photomath or some type of artificial intelligence tool. So I think if we're not rethinking homework right now, we're really sticking our head in the sand.
David Smith:
Yeah.
Jon Eckert:
Because I don't think students need four hours to do homework anymore, I think they're way more efficient.
David Smith:
Yeah.
Jon Eckert:
Because they divide and conquer and offload to other things, so if you're not giving a meaningful homework assignment that is not able to just be done by something else, that's a problem. What I also loved about your example, and this is from page 76 in your book, it really gets into hospitality and what that looks like. And so it's asking students to be hospitable and then asking families to be hospitable. And you have this great separation here that, I'm just going to read this.
"The call to tolerance asked me to put up with your differences in exchange for you being willing to put up with mine. A Christian frame asks for more, extending the idea of love of neighbor to include strangers and even enemies." And so I do think as Christians, as educators, we have a really high call, that tolerance isn't even close to what Christ requires of us. And so-
David Smith:
Right.
Jon Eckert:
Welcoming students into that and helping them welcome others in it, that's a really high call. So can you talk a little about, this is from your framing sections, I thought that was a perfect place for it.
David Smith:
Yeah.
Jon Eckert:
Can you talk some about that?
David Smith:
Yeah, I think there's more than one Christian idea that can become a framing device in education, and one that I've been thinking about for a long time is hospitality. There is this theme in scripture, from start to finish, about hospitality to strangers. And it appears in all the important places, it's in the law, it's in the gospels, it's in the prophets, it's in the epistles, it's everywhere. So there's also quite a long history of thinking about schools in terms of hospitality, so when you start thinking about that in curricular terms, what does a hospitable classroom look like? How do students experience the classroom?
So the way I started one of my classes this semester, and I talked about this in the book as well, is I actually started the class with us all sitting around in a big circle. And I asked each student to, I asked them to pair up and introduce themselves to each other and share two pieces of information that they were willing to be made public. And then I asked each person to introduce their partner to the group. And as we went around the group, we tried to memorize all the information, so we stopped after every second or third person and said, "And what was her name and what was her cat called?" right, and so on. So it's a real simple thing. And then I had students journal about it, and I've done this for a few years now.
And first, I think there's an interesting difference between coming to a classroom and having to introduce yourself and having somebody else introduce you-
Jon Eckert:
Right.
David Smith:
Having somebody speak up for you in the first five minutes of class. And then, rather than going around the class and doing the introductions and by the end you can't actually remember any of it, because 40 pieces of random information just went through your short-term memory. The fact that we're actually focusing on remembering things about each other, my students have written quite eloquently about, in fact, I was fascinated just reading the journals over the weekend. One of them said, "Teachers often say at the start of the semester, "We care about you, we are here to help you," but usually I don't believe them. I think it's just something teachers are supposed to say at the start of the semester. But this activity made me believe that you actually cared that we were there, because the information about ourselves actually mattered for the start of the learning."
And it's not like I think that's the way every class has to start, there are different disciplines and contexts and so on. But again, it's how do we find these moves that actually create a welcome within the classroom and you then push it further, how is the classroom welcoming to voices from beyond the classroom? So whose pictures do we show? Whose stories do we tell? And then how do we enable students to go out beyond the classroom? If I give my student a homework where they have to go to interview someone, how do I help them to be a good interviewer, to ask good questions, to not roll their eyes when the person says something they disagree with, to show in their body language that they're interested in what somebody has to say? Suddenly you're into a whole new set of skills that you don't get if the homework is fill out a worksheet.
So there's a whole continuum here in terms of, hospitality is a very rich way of thinking about lots of different facets of schooling, from just basic classroom relationships, to curriculum content, to what kind of skills we're trying to equip our students with. And tolerance is not nearly enough, tolerance just means I'm willing to not kill you.
Jon Eckert:
Yeah, yeah. No, it's a great example. We do some similar things in the, I teach a leadership capstone class, it's the only class I get to teach to undergrads. And I just had lunch last week with one of my students from last semester, who has been through a lot, really tough life as an atheist. When you dig in, you realize where a lot of the hurt is. And so at the end of the semester, I give each kid a book and I inscribe something in the front to encourage them where I've seen them grow, what I hope for them, how I'm praying for them. And I'd given this class, All Prodigal God, by Tim Keller. And it was interesting, when we sat down, she read it over break, and so she wanted to gather and talk about it at lunch. And the book is the story of the Prodigal Son, but it's really, God is the center of the story is a reckless spendthrift, so that's why it's Prodigal God. And it's a beautiful story.
She actually said, in this way that I find having atheists in class to be unbelievably interesting to creating a different dynamic in the class. She was wise enough to identify herself as the elder brother in that, so not only was she not tolerating Christians on campus, she was looking down on them as being less than, because of how she felt like they made her feel and instead, she had become the older brother in it. And she articulated that at lunch, and I was like, the wisdom that she shared and the hospitality that she displayed by, A, reading a book that I gave her that's explicitly Christian.
David Smith:
Yeah.
Jon Eckert:
And then B, wanting to have lunch and talk about it. I mean, what a gift that is from a student to an educator to be able to have that, and then to have that all throughout the semester in class, 'cause we dealt with a lot of really hard things. And so I think that's a beautiful piece, and I love this, you say this on 113, which relates to, I think, both of those last two examples. It's about hopes and tasks, and I thought this was really good. "Instead of just giving a reading assignment, we could devote the same kind of reflection to tasks focused on other skills such as writing research or artistic creation, with the idea that we are trying to," this is the next sentence down a little bit. "A carefully articulated task becomes a chance to remind ourselves of who we are trying to become, as we read."
And so if we started thinking that way and curating our assignments that way, I think that would fundamentally shift how we assign work in class.
David Smith:
Yeah.
Jon Eckert:
Is there another example that you have where that's been really successful for you?
David Smith:
Yeah, I mean, just yesterday in class, I got the most nods around the room that I've had in a while, from students just going, "Oh, yeah. When we started talking about how there's something about school that if you're not really, really careful, slowly teaches you that the point of doing the assignment is to get the assignment done. And that in the end, what the teacher really cares about is that you get the assignment done, because what you're going to be penalized for is not failing to grow, it's not turning it in at 3 P.M, and it's not having written 250 words, or not having got to page 27. So a lot of the messaging that we give to students when we give out assignments, it's often like the last two minutes of class and we're already in a hurry, and it's like, "Make sure you read chapter two by tomorrow," right.
So the strongest verbal message is, what I really care about is quantity, deadlines, getting it done, getting it turned in. And so I also find that what my students most often come and apologize to me about, is, "Oh, I didn't quite manage to get to the last three pages today," or, "I need to turn it in 30 minutes late, is that okay?" And a big part of me is going like, "Why would I care if you turn it in 30 minutes late? Like the world's not going to stop turning." So that means you're a good student being conscientious, the fact that you still want to get it in within 30 minutes. But what they're not coming to me and saying, is, "I started reading this and I didn't get through it because it was really challenging me and I had to go and think about it." Or, "I tried to get through it, but I didn't quite understand it. Can you help me figure out how to apply this?"
And so, again, this is a big mountain to climb, but how do you start to shift the message from, school is about getting stuff done, to school is about growing and learning. And I think a real simple way to run at that is by being explicit about assignments.
So if I give you something to read, is the message, "Read to page 27 by tomorrow?" Or is the message, "I'd like you to read to page 27, and when you get to page 22, you're going to find a paragraph there that's kind of a little dense, but it's a really core paragraph in this chapter, and we're going to need talk about it together tomorrow, because I've read this chapter eight times and I'm still trying to live out this paragraph and I'm not sure I'm there yet, so I need you to think about it with me. So when you get to that paragraph, stop, read it three times, then go find a friend and read it to them and see what they think. And if that means you only get to page 26, I can live with that, but this paragraph, right. And then see if you can think of some ways that you would live differently tomorrow if this were true."
And I'm just making this up as I go along-
Jon Eckert:
[inaudible 00:27:12].
David Smith:
But imagine that as a homework assignment, compared to the usual kind of, "Read to page 27, answer the first three questions, turn them in at 4:37 P.M. on Moodle." And it's all about messaging, and so if I could do that consistently, is there a chance that I could get more of my students believing that in the end, what I really care about is that something changed, that some learning happened. And not just that we all managed to click in the right place on the right day. Which, frankly, is the least of my worries, so.
Jon Eckert:
Yeah.
David Smith:
Because even when you emphasize that, it doesn't happen anyway, so.
Jon Eckert:
Yes, no, I want to give that a giant amen. I mean, my classes are always designed, I take the best 25 authors, I've read their best article or their best chapter from their best book, and I have curated that as like, this is what we're going to focus on today. And I love that even focusing them further on the paragraph and going back to the example I just gave you from the student who I gave the book at the end of the semester. Like that's not an assignment, that's a, "Hey, I am grateful for you. This is my last, kind of bringing closure to class and here's this." And then it's, I may never see that student again, we may never have another conversation.
David Smith:
Yeah.
Jon Eckert:
But when you do, that's a much richer conversation, because it wasn't compulsory, it wasn't about compliance, it wasn't about getting something done, so I love that. I love that point. The last thing we always do, is we do a quick lightning round, and with all the years of experience you have, I got to imagine you've got some good answers. I just have four questions. The first one is, and you can do in whatever order you want, these first two. Best advice you've ever given or received as an educator and worst advice you've ever given or received as an educator? Start there.
David Smith:
Best advice, never talk to a child without eye contact.
Jon Eckert:
That's good.
David Smith:
That was the best piece of parenting advice I was ever given, actually.
Jon Eckert:
Yeah. That's good.
David Smith:
I think it's really easy for adults to talk at young people-
Jon Eckert:
Yeah.
David Smith:
Rather than, to young people. And something I said in, at least once in a previous book is, I think teaching is something you do with people, not something you do to people. My students are not objects that I'm trying to hit with something, and if I can't establish communication, that we're actually human beings looking at each other and we're trying to figure something out here, then it's probably not going to go as well as it could. If I just kind of broadcast over the top of the assembled heads, that's not going to go well.
Jon Eckert:
Just watch a great kindergarten teacher, they're always down on a knee-
David Smith:
That's good.
Jon Eckert:
Eye to eye with kids, yeah.
David Smith:
Right. Well, I often find, it's not just kindergarten, university, I often find myself down on a knee by a table, 'cause that's where you should be, right.
Jon Eckert:
You should be, you just see it far less. I totally agree.
David Smith:
Yeah.
Jon Eckert:
No, but yes.
David Smith:
Yeah.
Jon Eckert:
That is good.
David Smith:
So-
Jon Eckert:
Worst advice?
David Smith:
And then worst advice. Worst advice I've been given, don't smile till Christmas.
Jon Eckert:
Oh yeah. Classic.
David Smith:
It's one of our old chestnuts. Yeah, it's funny, when I first started teaching, my early teaching was in some urban environments and I found it very difficult. And I did not have great classroom management skills when I started and I struggled, I had some unruly classrooms. But one of the things I also learned about myself was that I couldn't do the Policeman act convincingly, it's just not in my personality to look mad-
Jon Eckert:
Yeah.
David Smith:
With students. Because I'm not actually very often mad with students, I just find classrooms fascinating.
Jon Eckert:
Even when they derobe. Yeah.
David Smith:
Yeah. And so, a few times early on, if I tried to pretend to be mad with students, then they just laughed at me, because it just wasn't convincing. So I had to gradually find other strategies, which had a lot to do with just investing lots of time in relationship building and trying to make the learning meaningful, and again, the one-on-one contact. And so the sort of be mean until they know you mean it thing, has just never ever worked for me.
Jon Eckert:
Yeah.
David Smith:
Maybe there are people for whom it works, but even then, I'm just not convinced that an ethic of be unpleasant to people until they get on board is a great way to go.
Jon Eckert:
I'm pretty convinced that's not a great way, which I think you're being kinder than I am. I don't think that's an effective way to manage people, especially not in 2025. I don't think that's a-
David Smith:
Yeah.
Jon Eckert:
Ethic that's going to work. Okay, next thing, best book you've read in the last year related to education?
David Smith:
Oh my, read so many books recently and some of them were really, really specialized.
Jon Eckert:
Yeah. Or pick one of your top five.
David Smith:
Yeah.
Jon Eckert:
Yeah.
David Smith:
Best book that I've just read. Well, you know what, I'm going to do the really embarrassing thing here, I really enjoyed your book. I read your book just recently-
Jon Eckert:
Oh.
David Smith:
Just Teaching by Jon Eckert
Jon Eckert:
Yeah.
David Smith:
Is something that I've been getting ideas out of for my own classroom, and that's always a win. So that was a really great one. And another reason I have for picking that out is, at the moment I'm working up to a big research project on Comenius. So I'm reading a lot of-
Jon Eckert:
Yeah.
David Smith:
Books about Comenius at the moment, and some of them are really great.
Jon Eckert:
Yeah.
David Smith:
But they're in German and they're really specialized, so.
Jon Eckert:
That is specialized.
David Smith:
But-
Jon Eckert:
That is specialized.
David Smith:
In terms of books that are just about the classroom, I did enjoy your book, Just Teaching.
Jon Eckert:
Okay.
David Smith:
And, yeah, another one I just read the other day, I just did a podcast the other day with Alan Bandstra, who's a teacher from Iowa, and he's got one called, Solutions That Heal-
Jon Eckert:
Okay.
David Smith:
Talk about infectious behavior in classrooms. And it's a self-published book, it's just a teacher who wanted to write about the things that are going on in his classroom, and I found it quite winsome.
Jon Eckert:
No, that's good.
David Smith:
[inaudible 00:32:43]. So, yeah.
Jon Eckert:
That's good. The funny thing is, whenever I ask that question about best book, I always have my pen ready to write it down. And as you're sharing that, I'm mindlessly, I literally wrote down, "Just Teaching," on my thing. I was like, okay.
David Smith:
so you can look it up later and see if it's any good, yeah.
Jon Eckert:
Right. I'll see, I'll check. But that's very kind. Last question, what makes you most hopeful as you look at schools right now?
David Smith:
It's funny, I don't draw hope from looking at institutions really, so it's not so much looking at schools. What always makes me hopeful is, like every student who is in my classroom right now is a human being who is spending a lot of money to learn how to help other people learn. And I just find my students are sometimes idealistic to a fault, there's some things that will get more complicated when they get into the classroom, but they are students who deeply want to do good for their learners. And I'm glad every semester, that I've just spent a semester with another 20, 30 young people who want to be teachers and who want to find a humane way of doing that and a faith informed way of doing that, in a way that does good in the world.
And that's among my students. But I'm going away on a retreat as part of a research project this weekend, with five teachers from area schools. Where we're actually going to talk about hope for the whole weekend and how we're going to address that in schools. And again, just seeing their eagerness to be part of that project and to want to give up their weekend to talk about how we teach for hope in schools. So all over, when I do professional development, I just keep running into teachers who haven't given up yet and who are trying to do right by their students, do right by their faith, find a more true and wholesome way of doing things. And as long as there's a good subset of people who are doing that, then there's still a chance that it can get better.
Jon Eckert:
That's good, that's good. Good place to find hope. Well, hey, thank you for your work, really appreciate Everyday Christian Teaching. Super helpful, good follow up on Christian Teaching-
David Smith:
Thank you.
Jon Eckert:
Also, super helpful. Oh, and excited for the platform you're building out, we didn't even talk about that. But there's a platform that's going to go with all of this. Do you want to just say something to wrap up-
David Smith:
Yeah.
Jon Eckert:
And give people a sense of where to find that?
David Smith:
Yeah. I'll try to say this quickly. Where to find it, there's a website, everydaychristianteaching.com. It already exists, if you go there right now, you'll find a description of what's coming, but there's no actual resources there yet. We are hoping to have the first resources up there by March, we are building it frantically right now. But what it's going to be is really an extension of the idea that this book is about, how do you learn how to do this regularly, not just how do you have this one blinding moment of revelation, but how do you make this part of a routine? So we're building professional development resources that help to create community conversations around this.
So there are some resources where you can just download everything you need to run a PD day. There's others where you can download everything you need to run a seven week or seven month whole school conversation around it. There's going to be self guided resources, so if there's just one of you or if there's a small group of you that want to do it at your own pace, there's going to be versions like that. And there's some graduate credit bearing options. And we're building these around specific topics like community or hospitality or Shalom, and we're sort of building out resources for each of those. Like I say, we're furiously working on finalizing details on some of these, and we've been piloting them out in schools and getting really good feedback. And so we hope to have the first ones available on there and we're trying to make it very affordable as well. First stuff should be up sometime in March at the latest, and yeah, go there and take a look and then keep coming back to see what we've added over time.
Jon Eckert:
No, that's great. Thank you for that. Appreciate your work. Thanks for being with us.
David Smith:
Yeah, you're welcome. Thank you for the invite.
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