How Might We Become Aware to Help Others

In the latest episode of How Might We, I am joined by Mark Hammond. Mark is the owner of Connectivity Consulting, and he specialises in enabling highly effective teams by transforming how those teams behave.

His passion is for enabling a team and their leader. His experience is that by transforming the behaviour of teams, shifting the entire dynamic, I can embed a change in culture and performance.

He achieve this by doing things differently. His approach is powerful, as are your outcomes.

Mark LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/mark-hammond-a0103714/

Marks Website: https://connectivityconsulting.co.uk

 

Transcription:

Scott: [00:00:00] Hello, and welcome to the latest edition of how might we, we're going to be unusual this time. We, we're not going to decide on the title until the end. So it's going to be quite an unstructured chat around things of purpose, vulnerability, and leadership. So on this episode, my guest is mark hammer. Good morning, mark, would you like to introduce

Mark: yourself by Scorpio?

Mark Hammons and I am. This podcast with Scott after having met him. And we just connected and had a really good conversation share quite a bit have a lot in common and I agreed to come on and talk a little bit more. Me I'm I run my own business it's called connectivity consulting and I focus on helping people change.

Pretty much similar to what Scott does. I work with teams mostly in that evolved after 25 years in corporate. But I, I tend to [00:01:00] focus on really helping people to shift their awareness within a team and then help that team to shift. And that includes the leader. And I linked that to sorta things like sustainability purpose And innovation, it's sort of a process, so it's not very linear.

And I've I've had to learn, be open to a whole lot of learning in that process. So yeah, Scott and I got talking about some stuff and so here I am. So it's been It's been interesting just to come out, come on and just find something to talk about. And but it makes sure it has meaning and purpose and some focus.

So that's a little bit about nameless. You feel you'd like a little bit more Scott, but this there's plenty of me on, on my website and LinkedIn, and I thought maybe could use this time to talk about some good stuff.

Scott: Okay. We could, obviously we can we'll put your your links to your website and stuff on the, on the page.

So people are more than welcome to do so. Yeah. So you talked about change, changing and working predominantly with teams, but obviously the important thing is you said it's about the leaders to change within that team as well. So and the adaptability before we came online use the word vulnerability, [00:02:00] which has definitely been sort of gaining a lot of traction sort of on things on LinkedIn and sort of people talking in, in the sort of personal development, leadership field about talking about vulnerability.

So what do you think vulnerability is?

Mark: So, this is just my personal view. I think it's, it's many things. And when you, when you start looking at something like vulnerability, it would be easy and comfortable to categorize it as, as a thing. But if there's anything that I've learned in working with different teams and different people, it's many different things for many different people.

But broadly, I mean, probably the best. The best sort of approach I've heard or unread of is, is that by Brandon Brown and a couple of other people that she's spoken to. So for me, you know, for me personally, I think vulnerability is, is when you're willing to take a risk with something that you, you have that that's going to make you feel.

But you [00:03:00] that as you put yourself out in that space, you can notice a physical reaction. You may notice a cognitive or mental reaction to that. But it it's something that might make you feel a little uncomfortable in whatever your comfort zone. I, I'm not going to curve from. You know, putting your trust in somebody that you haven't done before, it could be raising a difficult topic.

It could be challenging somebody on something. So it's many different things, but it tends to have an emotional response or an emotion. A very strong theme of strong is the right word, but it tends to come with an emotional component. So for me, it's when I start to feel uncomfortable and noticing the things that I do to distance myself from being uncomfortable.

That's when I started to pay attention. So it brings with it a number of things. So there's a, there's a strong emotional component to it. And I, I sort of broadly categorize it as when you start to feel uncomfortable. And it tends to have quite a bit to do with trust. But again, it's not, it's not exclusive to trust. So yeah, it's Brenda Brown's definition, I'm going to see if I can pull it up briefly so we can [00:04:00] have a, I can be a little bit more specific. Cause I was just running through my mind. What is, what's the best way to define it?

So ground Brenda Brown, I think in a book from 2016, says the emotion and the experience during times of risk uncertainty and emotional exposure. And I love that one. There's a more technical one, which is from Maya luffa and Robinson, I think from 2007. More research-based vulnerabilities manifest in a willingness to be honest and open to learning by accepting our own fallibility and thus taking responsibility for one's own actions, be more responsive to others and sharing responsibility.

So in answer to the question, probably somewhere in, in amongst those two.

Scott: Okay. So, I mean, I quite like the thing about that, being that vulnerability about taking responsibility. For ourselves and then saying, this may be uncomfortable for me, but I'm going to have to do it, but I understand where I am and what I can do within that space.[00:05:00]

So was it the muscling somewhere versus the, you've got your comfort zone sometimes in, outside the comfort zone, that's where the magic happens. And it's about this it's uncomfortable at times.

Mark: Yeah. And I saw playing just a little bit on the weekend with my daughter. She was, she's doing a diving. So springboard diving course.

And it came from jumping off a pier somewhere in Croatia while back, and she loved it, enjoyed it. And so she decided to take up a diving course. And so she was in the springboard and they had asked the class to go up to the sort of three meter and then right to the very top one. And she said, you know, I've done.

I was, and she's 12. So she said to me, I was feeling really nervous and anxious about it and scan of it. And I said, so what did you do? She said, well, I didn't want to look bad in front of the rest of the class. And I also knew that I could do it cause I've done it before, maybe not as high, but I felt quite anxious and uncomfortable with it.

And I said, so, and what happened when you did it? And she said, well, I felt a lot better and was a little nervous going down. But she said, I felt a lot better when I did it. Cause I knew I could do [00:06:00] it. And I said, yep. And to your point, Scott right there. And once you take that step into the, into what we perceive as the unknown and potentially the uncomfortable and potentially some of the risks we might perceive that comes with it.

Sometimes, I mean, granted not always, but sometimes there's a sense of relief afterwards of actually it wasn't as bad as I thought it was going to be. That's what my daughter said to me. She said, I got out of Wharton and I looked at him and went, I can do that. And so to your point and learning unfolds and, and something beautiful starts to happen and I don't shy away from those words.

The learning, the learning that starts to take place as we take a step forward, as we make the choice, as we start to connect with those decisions, as we start to connect with how we feel about stuff that there's, there's some real purpose in there, and there's a whole level of learning that comes with that.

And that's, that's not sort of, make-believe soft and fluffy. It's probably life giving a little tap on the shoulder going, come on. I think maybe we we, we, we need to take a couple of steps down here. I ain't gonna force you. But [00:07:00] he has a choice and then we make the choice. We make the choice to either shy away or engage with it or play with it or think about it or circle back.

Or my sense is life. My experiences life always come back and use it. Broadly. Life, life comes back gently. When, when you, when you when you least expected and gives you a tap on the shoulder and says, okay, come on on, stay in your comfort zone all the time. So,

Scott: I used to work with somebody and he had a great saying.

He said everyday every day,

Mark: Yes.

Scott: Every day is a school David, so it'd be willing. And there's another one I liked. I mean, I love my quotes. I can't remember as this. I mean like a lesson, something that happens to you and experiences the lesson, doing something different is a learning.

And I think that goes back to what you say is that we, we have these experiences in life, whatever they may be. And what do we do with that knowledge, that new experience that we've gotten? How could we then use that to move ourselves forward in such a way? And I liked strengths. I, I think we've talked before about the, the Clifton strengths.

Yes. So I'm one, I'm a coach for them. And the interesting thing is it's [00:08:00] accepting that yes, you are stronger at something, but there's areas that maybe you're not, and it's not about trying to take time to work on our weaknesses, but it's basically how can we leverage what we're good at?

To overcome our challenges. So instead of spending our time trying to develop, so I'm not an organized person, I'm not a dude. I'm not a sort of a, somebody pushes things forward. I'm much more about give me some ideas, do it play around with things, and then I'll say, well, I can't do that sort of stuff very well.

So there's no point in giving me to do lists, to do lists, state, to do, to do lists. They don't ever get to done lists, kind of just stay there. It's not worth what works for me, but sitting there going, okay, once I've done this, I can then move on to something exciting, understanding that how I work helps me manage that, that better so I can adapt my workflow to my strengths and what I like.

So I think that comes back to what you're saying about that vulnerability as well. And just saying this isn't a strength of mine. That is, but then again, it's about how, the way they leverage their strengths to overcome the challenges of.[00:09:00]

Mark: The vulnerabilities, that is a great teacher. And it shows up in many ways. I mean, let's, let's put it out there, love loss across the whole gamut of life. So, you know,

it's, it's many different things for many different people, but so One way of, of vulnerability becoming becoming real for people is, is there's a technique I I'll use with time with teams at a certain point in their, in their process and then their journey and then the work that they're doing together.

And that's very much engages the individual, but you know, for me, the, the piece around working with the team. That the individual is, is getting it from, it's not getting it. Sorry, is, is, is experiencing something for themselves, but also themselves in a team environment. So they are seeing how they how they impact and influence the team.

So as they shift and change the feedback, the context from right there in front of them, that's a [00:10:00] very rich piece to work with. And you were talking about your preferences and your styles. So whilst vulnerability is something that we not always comfortable with. It doesn't always have to be something which is sort of deeply personal.

So there's many techniques. So telling a personal story and sharing deeply I I've heard some CEOs and board members and executive teams speak really deeply and personally about And love and loss and their journey through life where you could hear a pin drop in the room because it was so powerful.

And they had been working with people for 10 to 15 years. We had no idea, no idea, but yet when they connected with these people in this way, the thing that started a nudge was was people really started to connect and listen. And appreciate and understand so that they're sort of use the word broadly, but the Hemi humanity and the, the connection with the loss of the connection with the joy.

I mean like a simple, simple thing, but like a wedding in a wedding is a time of great joy sometimes. And you could see the room lights [00:11:00] up on them. And they were talking about getting married to the person that I loved. And, and then a little later in the story, there was something around where they lost a loved one.

And you could see people go with them on that journey so that they connected very deeply. So it's, it's like you were just talking to it's many different things from, for each of us, so it can be a personal story or it could be simply putting a difficult issue on the table. So, what do you want to talk about?

How is this issue getting in the way for you? So it doesn't necessarily mean need people to show up with. With the past, but there's another way of getting them to come into the room where it has a real context and allows them to be a little bit more present with it because they have a view and slowly allow them to experience coming into talking about something, which might be quite meaningful, but they don't feel like they can.

And it goes back to that different, that vulnerability issue that we were talking to. So it's, it's fascinating to see this, this [00:12:00] process unfold because one of the things I was thinking was it, it is a process. And as, as we, as people go through the process, it's taught me a lot, but I can't assume what the, what the journey is for other people.

I can see the outcomes, but I see, I see people becoming aware. I see people in sung to experience and notice different things like acknowledging different things for themselves. Like for example, a leader would goes. I'm just, I'm giving too many solutions and I need to keep quiet because when I keep quiet, I see, I see a completely.

Piece unfold or merge or whatever word you want to use, but I see something shift and change. So when I remove my input and I create a space, something else emerges, other people start to talk and I get to learn something. I get to learn something which is you know, John has an idea or mark has an idea, or Scott has an idea where his thoughts or views, or I get to see that there's possibly too much silence or I get to see that.[00:13:00]

One person's talking too much other than me or. Actually there's a whole range of views and perspectives that when I keep on giving mine, I miss. So that vulnerability shows up in terms of quite simply saying, I need, I need to stop talking. I maybe need to stop giving the solutions. It can be that pragmatic in a way.

But it's not always easy to do, cause that might surface feelings of lack of control or not, not adding the value that people might ascribe to a role or that they feel they have to do. And as they let go of some of those pieces and to become aware of that, that there are feelings of vulnerability that might emerge And so it starts to unfold and you were talking about tasks, give me a task list and I'm going to get tasked.

I ain't going to get done. We've learned that, you

Scott: know, you may have yeah. Repeated behavior and saying guys has gotta be, there's gotta be a better way of doing this. But it's interesting. Cause we were again talking before the role of leaders in organizations changing and this isn't, I think it was applicable for [00:14:00] whether you're a small business or a large business either way.

Yeah. My personal view now is, is, is, is much more about who you are as a person rather than the role that you play. I think some of that perception is the leader has all the answers and the manager. So some would be, should go to for the answers is changing. I think COVID has been a catalyst for some of those changes that were already happening.

Yeah. And the different ways we work as it may be required a different way of doing it.

What's your thoughts on that?

Mark: Yeah. Again, it's, it's quite a it's a big area. So let me take a few little pieces from that, which, which possibly be the sort of joined up link, but

I think COVID you you're spot on. I think COVID has has, has provided something for people, which is context. It's a shared context. We've all been through it. Okay. So analogy would be whilst we were all on the same ocean, we might be in different boats rowing, but we've all been through. COVID being the ocean and the way we we've all had to experience it.

And we've expensive, many [00:15:00] different ways. I've got friends and families who've lost, loved ones as a result of it or lost their jobs or so it's had an impact. And that experience that, that understanding that awareness, that knowledge is not limited to leaders anymore. In fact, it's, it's opened up. A whole range of insights to everybody.

So leaders, I think are not just title and role anymore, as you were talking to. We are now all in the position where we, we've got to think about how we move forward and how we engage and talk to each other because there is no going back to the past. People might want that and strive for it, but too much has changed.

Know though the, the absolute meshing together molding together of working and home. That's just transformed everything. I think we were chatting about this when we first started talking and what that's done. I've had ladies say to me, I just do not want to get on a plane anymore. I've seen my daughters.

I've seen my children. I've seen my sons grow and I've seen them changes as young [00:16:00]people and. I don't want to miss that anymore. And yet other people feel like they just want to get back to the security of the pasta and get back into the office and all that comes with that. But so much has changed. I don't think it's ever necessarily going to be the same experience again.

So it's it's whilst people are yearning for that in the way. It may, it may have a similar, similar structure, but it may not have the same feeling or emotions or, or, or experience that comes with it. So, yeah. It's so it drives for me it's it's. Created something where people can go and say it in team meeting, hang on.

I actually need to be working from home and because of a, B and C I'm for leaders to turn and shut that down and not enable that conversation. And there are some who we're still doing that. I mean, there's been calls for you. Absolutely. You have to get back in the office. And in a way that's been imposed.

Now, if you start imposing something, when people have awareness that it's different, [00:17:00]there's going to be a response and there's going to be a reaction. And that's invariably resistance and resistance shows up in many ways. And what we're seeing is the great what are they calling it? Where people at the great resignation where people are living.

So the, my sense is we have experienced something which has given us A different focus, a different purpose. If we're choosing technology and become aware of it. So leaders in that space, it's not tackling and roll anymore. It is two degree because people in leadership positions still need to sign off budgets.

They still need to sign off decisions that those practical elements, but it's the emphasis I think, has shifted onto leaders. The spotlight is on them. You have the kind of self-awareness to have the presence of mind, to learn how to be authentic, to learn how to be present, because those are the skills they're going to help them to connect with people and have those conversations where they can navigate some of the stuff that's out there that wasn't typically in the workspace or, or seen as soft and fluffy, or were [00:18:00] seen as the domain of HR.

It's not anymore. And those are broad categorizations. It's everybody. So leaders really do need to figure out how they're going to show up as people, because the glaringly obvious point now is, is if you can have those conversations, you're going to be at a disadvantage. And that that comes from building your awareness, building your self awareness, learning how to have those conversations, learning how to connect with people.

So, so there's points of connection become far more. Of of of flow both ways. It's not a N it's not anymore a single one way direction. It might be perceived that still exists. But I think the the reality is the person who's being told you can't, as a board example, you can't work from home anymore.

You have to be in the office that person's going to. I just don't agree with that. And they may not articulate it. They may just go inside. I just don't agree with that. And it could be any kind of scenario. I just don't agree with that. I've seen it [00:19:00] working and I'm going to, I'm going to go find something else.

So in business that comes to the cost comes in a cost on time, a customer capability, culture, all of these things. And that's, that's the other piece that has really rapidly emerged is. As you, as you as leadership is changing the awareness of how it has a significant impact on effectiveness, effective behaviors, culture, how people are willing to trust you, how people are willing to show up and give you the ideas. Those leaders we've figured that out and how that, how they can, how they can really step into that authentically.

They have a distinct, competitive advantage as both as an individual, as a leader. In the team and for the organization. So, yeah, I agree with you. Leadership is just it's it's it's, it's not a, it's not a, sort of a right here's leadership. It's getting from a, to B. It is exponentially shifting and changing.

And we're seeing a lot of those, those w we're seeing that play out [00:20:00] globally and local. In how leaders don't really show up and address the issue on the table. I'm so sorry. You can just say on, I've been rattling on, you got me thinking. So I

Scott: think he's good. I like thinking it reminds me of the Stephen Covey quote not the one who wrote the seven habits of highly effective leaders, but his, his son who wrote speed of trust.

And it is that he calls it a trust dividend or a trust tax. So if you've got high trust, Then businesses easier and cheaper, quicker and cheaper. If you've got low trust businesses, slower and more expensive for the various reasons that you've identified. If, if somebody doesn't trust what you're doing or that breakdown to come to, you have to come back to the office and be like, well, I've been working from home for 18 months and why do I need to come back to the office?

And then there's that potential resistance, as you say, can manifest itself in multiple ways, but generally it's going to have a negative impact on how they do. Hmm, which is going to cost the organization in time or money

Mark: or both,[00:21:00]

and then mutation brand, you know, there's all these, there's all these different pieces that start to play out. But you you're spot on. I love that, that that trust piece that you've just mentioned, because that is in the work that I do with my clients and the it becomes very evident very quickly, whether there's trust there.

And it's not a, it's not a sort of a. Cognitive or way mental mental arithmetic of we trust each other because we've known each other for 15 years. Okay. Let's, let's introduce a little bit of conflict and see what happens. And that's one test of, of real trust is if it's tenure based or it's actually based on people making themselves vulnerable to each other, you know, to, to Brown's quote of the emotion that we experienced during times of risk, when they start to make themselves vulnerable to each other.

And it, and it is maybe asking some tough questions. And in uncertainty and that real test trust gets formed when people start to listen and acknowledge each other. I mean, I work with teams where they don't even acknowledge each other's perspectives. That seems to be this technique where people have [00:22:00] adopted where they just talk over each other.

So there's something introduced somebody talks and never get acknowledged. I never quite get heard. There's never a questioning of what they said. And in a constructive, insightful sort of curious way, something just gets layered on top of. And that's considered productive. That's considered effective broadly.

And then people wonder why this there's so much chaos in this. And it comes down to this, this, when you have trust, you actually get real listening, real hearing, real acknowledgement. Oh, so that's what you meant. Oh, and I appreciate that. You also lost somebody. So this might be playing. Is that playing?

Yeah, it is playing out for me as well. I feel like I'm going to make my space safe because I've lost somebody and I'm really feeling nervous and anxious at the moment. Okay. I get it. I get it. It's a lovely video that Renee brown from brown Brenae brown does about empathy, where there's a bear standing next to a, another small animal and they sharing the pain of loss and and [00:23:00] and the, the basically they, they sh they tell the story of, of their pain and another animal comes in and it's available in nutrients to remember, it'll come to me.

And there's absolutely no compassion or empathy displayed. And the, the other person comes in, let's call it a person comes and goes, you want a sandwich versus going, I get that. You guys are talking about something which is really painful and difficult. And, and I can see that you really in this I mean, I'm, I'm happy to share because I've been in a similar position versus trying to.

Avoided number two, et cetera. So there's absolutely something in how we've got to connect with each other in a different way. And this trust component you talk to is so vital. And yet we, we, there seems to be so much assumption around. We have trust and yet it plays out in so many ways. When it's not there, I I'm almost would go so far to say that people use it broadly.

But when I work with. It's something I really focus [00:24:00] on. And I don't know if it's because people are feeling very vulnerable with it or they forgotten about how to do it, or they don't know how to do it. Or there's so much information about them, about how they should be

learning, how to trust people, particularly in a team environment. It seems to be at times it seems to be quite a revelation. Because the other piece here is, is if you want to get through conflict, trust is what's going to get you through it. And we were talking about vulnerability and how it unfolds and how the lessons come to you when you, when you, when you go on this journey and trust is exactly the same way because they all connected and they all do the same.

They all sort of broadly sort of connect and then take you on a journey. And I appreciate it. I'm not courting any ref, any religion or any research, but just from what I've noticed is when is when people start trusting each other in team. The then got to clear some of the interpersonal stuff, but then they can start having [00:25:00] those conversations, which are really meaningful and really powerful because they've really learned to trust each other.

They can then introduce the topic issues, which then she being avoided and. And it doesn't mean that it has to get aggressive or loud, but it, where, where people have learned to listen and hear and let go of some of their pieces and make themselves vulnerable in that space, man, things start to happen.

And we were talking earlier about how, how those lessons start to emerge and it leads to progression. It leads to people sort of moving through their stuff that was sort of six years out, slight exaggeration start that sort of like a year out for businesses and small teams. And small organizations at their Stripe and get to, if they sit down and have the right conversations with each other, I see this back in corporate teams, those issues suddenly accelerating and come onto the table.

And innovation starts to merge because people are willing to trust who put the ideas on. Well, what about, what about this? What do you mean by that? I I've never thought of that. And there's [00:26:00] this piece in here, which I think is really interesting because it makes me think of this. And we start getting sparking is what I call.

So you get this, get this organic innovation, just simply from people learning how to listen and trust and connect differently, but there's work to be done in this space because it's not always something people find easy. It makes them feel vulnerable, I think. And so they may shy, shy away from it, but as you would, you're talking to so, so powerfully earlier, You know, when you step into this and you start pushing a little bit, what comes, what, what is given back?

I think as part of taking that risk, what has given back is that the process shows you it's not all that bad and actually there's a huge amount of benefit that can, that can come from an auto, I mean, deep. Better understanding, feeling heard, feeling listened to learning how to listen, learning how to acknowledge finding out the best shed and common purpose that healthy conflict is actually really important.

And that conflict can be a positive thing. A healthy conflict is where [00:27:00] you stay connected in a disagreement rather than what typically happens is you break apart. So as I'm talking, I'm just thinking, okay, how do I evidence a little bit more around? What is, what are the benefits of being vulnerable in building.

And really doing that. So hopefully that's, that's done to come through cause it's, it needs to be more tangible, I think for people and the tangibility comes from practicing it and walking in it.

Scott: Yeah. There's something you said that sparks something on me, but then I don't think it's appropriate. No, when you hear something you think, oh, that's interesting, but then you say something else.

That's interesting. So the stuff that was interesting before I said, I'm not going to build on that now because it's not, the moment is not there and I forgot it was, but it's definitely around what you're saying. And around that trust and. We have an assumption of that. We trust people because we work with somebody for however many years and we know each other, but the question is, do you trust them?

And it's not linear. It's not a yes or no black or white, because you might trust somebody with your car keys, but you don't trust them to finish the project on time. You might trust them to finish the [00:28:00] project, but you don't trust them with some information about yourself because you think they're going to gossip so that I don't feel safe giving you that information because it's going to go somewhere on that one.

And I can't remember the guy's name, so apologies for whoever wrote this, but one of the best definitions of trust I've ever seen is where you are willing to give something to somebody that may harm you. So the question I would ask anybody, and again, looking at what trust is, is trust associates and it's perception as well.

So it is fluid and it's a perception and it's subjective. Is to say, what are you doing today that demonstrates you are worthy of somebodies trust? I think if we flip it around and say, that's what trust is, I've got to be worthy of. You've got to be, feel safe to share something with me. So what am I going to do to demonstrate that that's okay to do what am I going to do today?

And every day. Cause it's that consistency as well. And as you say, it's about, okay, I'll listen to your ideas. I won't shut you down. I'll if you tell me something, [00:29:00] I'll get. When I'm talking with my opinions, they're based on something, or I just say, this is just my, from my experience, this is what I think, but at least your quality qualifying.

So you're not just throwing stuff out there. And I think importantly mean what you say and say what you mean.

Mark: Yeah. There's a, there's something in it for me, which I think comes back to awareness. And I'm struck by when I'm working with teams is where people just seem to talk. And talk and talk and they don't seem to realize that they've been talking for five or 10 minutes and people around them have just gone.

Quiet. Here we go again. So I'll use myself as an example. Okay. Mark has been going on now for 10 minutes and watching teams with people. People just go quiet and then sort of get completely disconnected. So that there's something in this trust and vulnerability piece, which is, is it linked to awareness that, that there's something about how you've got to give this to yourself, [00:30:00]acknowledge it for yourself created within yourself, which is such an integral part of everything we talking to now that that lesson starts within us.

So that awareness starts within us giving ourselves a little bit of trust, giving ourselves a little bit of vulnerability. Is the catalyst for being able to see it in other people and see it more broadly in teams or, or, or understand how it's going to work. And until we've given that for ourselves.

So for ourselves it's all a little theoretical now, again, it happens in many ways. So but I, I watch as people who have. I'll use the example I've just spoken and spoken and spoken, and it has no relevance to what, what people were actually on. And they've completely disrupted the conversation, taking them off in a completely different direction.

No, one's really quite sure what it is. So it's in those moments that I, that I, I encourage people just to pause and stop and. [00:31:00] And I have to do that quite delicately because it can be quite a shock to him to be told. Just take a, just pause, take a breath. Think about what you need to say, because you've been speaking for the last 10 minutes.

So as, as I have, as I hold that space for an individual, I feel vulnerable because I don't know how they're going to react. I don't know what's going to happen, but I have to trust myself. I have to trust myself that there's a process playing RTI that I've seen before, and I've got to trust that. So I make myself vulnerable.

I put my trust in the process. I put the trust in myself in my own knowledge and that I present that to that person gently and delicately because you know, they're going to be in front of their peers and others and just gently say, what could you get if you paused and listened to. So to your point earlier, what's in it for me in a way, where does the perspective start to shift and change with God's to creating more awareness for people.

And I feel this is a really important [00:32:00] part of this, as well as vulnerability awareness trust there. So let's start to work together and we need to be able to give this to ourselves. Cause that's part of the journey.

Scott: Yeah, I agree. Definitely every journey starts from within. And I think what you were saying in the beginning about teams as well.

So I think organizations were sitting there going, no, this is what we're going to do from management downs of staff is not going to work because the staff, I think, half of the space to say, how does this play out? Absolutely Megan, to be in it. Once Ivy, once I've worked out, what is going to be for me, then how can I make that work for me?

And if we can work that way with T. And it doesn't matter what size of organization you are, even if you're a manager of 10 people or you're mad, or you're a team leader of five or your, a company that's got 30, 40 thousands. We can just bring everybody along. And sometimes, sometimes you think it's easy yet.

If you're a smaller company, but I think that even big companies can because you have smaller teams. Yeah.

Mark: The [00:33:00] principles still apply. You still got to shut. You still got to show up for the individual, no matter how many you have report reporting into you still to show up and figure out and go on the journey of how do I show up?

What happens when I show up? What do I enable for myself when I show up? So there's a process. It's it's. It enables all sorts. I mean, there's a wonderful picture. I saw once at a great friend of mine should have been, it was a river in Germany and the sun was arising the distance and it was reflected through the water.

But in the water, you could see all the movement from the current. So whilst this was it appeared to be a static picture that there was a reflection, there was movement. There was. It's all sorts of things unfolding and playing out, even though it appeared static. And I think it just really captured for me our internal process and becoming aware of that.

And not letting us over, not letting it overwhelm us all the time and then wondering, well, how did I get here? And it's the first stage of awareness. I did something I've ended up here. I'm angry. I'm frustrated. I'm [00:34:00] not sure how I got ya. And it might be you repeat that or you might go hang on. I noticed that something happened about five minutes ago, somebody said something or something was done or, or something triggered me.

Now you can go back to that point and go, okay. So when that happens again, I can choose something else. So here comes the self-awareness it comes to trust. Check comes the the whole process doesn't to, to play out a little bit. I mean, it's not terribly complex, but it, it is a, it is a process of acknowledging, noticing, experiencing rather, and that takes a whole body approach.

That's not just a. What I mean by the head is we think so much. Sometimes we forget to, we get to use the rest of our facilities now, our capabilities. So, so checking in with, hang on, hang on. I'm really getting nervous. I'm sweating. My voice is starting to tremor. There's something going on. Yeah. I mean, maybe it's just need to take a deep breath and just pause and reconnect with myself.

And make a different choice because [00:35:00] I don't want to end up being angry. So that's real awareness. That's where trust can be built. So you can literally articulate that and say I'm starting to feel quite nervous about. The, for example, the numbers, aren't adding up the way that they should. And I, I'm getting quite uncomfortable with this.

That's a, that's a beautiful way of introducing. I'm starting to feel uncomfortable with this. And I'm not sure what we, what we're really going to do with this, but we we're going to need to fix figure this one out. And that could be a small team for a small corporate or sorry, small organization or for a corporate.

But those principles of stepping into that space, being a little vulnerable, building the trust, checking with yourself, that process applies to everyone. And there's the individual leaders. 'cause when we notice that for ourselves, we can stop behaving, choosing, becoming a way in many, many different ways.

So that's the leadership piece. I think that is available to individuals and it is absolutely a leadership piece. It could, it's got nothing to do with title or ankle grade or bonus, or [00:36:00] how we choose to show up for each other and how we choose to maybe have an honest conversation about stuff. Yeah, you can have a joke and a laugh and go down to the pub.

If that's appropriate for you or your friends, you know, or you can go sit in the park and have a good, whatever it is that's relevant. But yeah, there's something here about how, how will we recognize our role as leaders as individuals. We don't need a title and how we lead ourselves into trust into vulnerability and experience at first, because there's something very powerful in that and what it brings to each of us.

Yeah.

Scott: I just want to just highlight two things as that's. Okay. Well, you said it's not complex what we're doing. I might try it. I might, I might question the use of language there if you don't mind. Possibly. I don't think it's complicated, but it is complex.

Because the complexity is understanding all those different things playing together, but the complicated, it's not [00:37:00] complicated. Somethings happens. This creates a trigger. That's created a response and I want to choose how to respond rather than react. But the complexity is. What is it? How am I reacting?

What's the impact on me? What choices do I have? How do I then choose? So, and everybody's different in that space. So Alexa T but I don't think the process itself is complicated, if that

Mark: makes sense. Absolutely. Isn't it, there's an awareness that you're talking to. That you can identify the complexity and that it the different elements to it.

But I can recall a time in my life when I had, no, I didn't have the awareness I have now. And, and I say that with complete and absolute humility, and it's not coming from a point of arrogance at all, because I made the choice. I made the choice to start. I just made a choice because I realized I was. [00:38:00] He wasn't doing and being who I really could have been.

So at that stage, I really struggled with simply figuring out how to trust myself because my life journey had been, I had learned how to protect myself. More than anything else. And that had led me to rely on one and only one person, which was me. So, and, and to, you know, enter a young lady who I'm now married to and I had to learn to trust her.

I have to learn to, I also had to learn to trust myself, to trust her if that makes sense. So. As I was learning that and the loyalty came in and she stood by me when I wanted to run, because I was wanting to get back to something which was more familiar. And I was feeling very vulnerable. I had to learn how to trust that loyalty.

So she stood by me as I went through this, this I [00:39:00] want to run and I want to go back to stuff which is more familiar. She just stood by me and she didn't mean to make it overly dramatic. She just, she just put her hand on my shoulders, basically told me she loved me. And she said I'm here. In words to that effect.

And that's what I learned. So my awareness came from the point of, as I experienced that I started become more aware of, ah, so that's what I I'm actually am okay. In this. So, and as I became, as I allowed myself to experience more and became an, and brought more vulnerability to it and sort of trusting more.

So I saw more, but at the time, The only thing that I was aware of was I'm not feeling comfortable. I want to get away from that. I want to get back to something which is more comfort. I don't want to be uncomfortable. It wasn't complex at all. It's simply was I just want to go back to state where I am, but as I played and I worked with that and I, I noticed it and I became more vulnerable.[00:40:00]

So the layers that the different levels sort of opened up to me. So I think we're fortunate in that we can talk about, and I think it is, it's a beautiful example of that. The awareness of we can work from home, you know, it's just, it's a more simplistic in pragmatic perspective, but. So in a way of, yes, I agree with you, but I think there's more to it than it's and I'm not, you're not saying this it's not a light switch.

I think it's, it's a, it's a gradual increase in, as you put yourself into these positions as a gradual increase of knowledge and awareness where you start to see there's more to it. And sometimes the simplest way of dealing with this is just to take a deep breath and acknowledge it right now. I'm getting uncomfortable.

I I'm either going to say something removed myself oh. Or not say something, but it's a more conscious choice and that isn't always. Or has complexity. Sometimes it is just [00:41:00] very, very simple. I'm not feeling comfortable. I need to get out of this or I need to say something, what am I going to do? So that awareness is, is in the moment.

It's, it's just very, you're in it. What are you going to do? So, yeah, I'm not disagreeing necessarily. But maybe I'm just trying to add a little bit more too, because I think yes. And I'll shut up now. Cause I think at times it can be collected quite complex. Yeah. I mean, at times at times it can be quite simple, simple as

Scott: well.

Oh, I think, I think we have a complicate things and not, and I say that the complexity is just about the different layers that are in there. And as you say, as the redness comes, we can peel back more or less and get a deeper understanding of . I think my mind came from when I used to work in the prison service.

And that's where I developed that level of awareness. And cause you just have to try and I love it again. It's an analogy and I love analogies is I look at it [00:42:00] as I was always looking at how can I calibrate myself to be effective in this situation. So I developed that sort of awareness that I needed to change how I was in any given situation to try to be effective because you'll deal with.

30 to 60 people, although you're trying to get them to do the same thing. It's 36 to people have to find a reason to do it. So you can't, you can't have that same conversation with 36 people and it be effective. So I think it was about me learning that calibration of myself and being a wedge. What this isn't quite right?

This, this doesn't feel the same to digest the day. There's something not quite right. So I've got to be really cautious and conscious of what I'm doing now. So I don't inflame the situation or I can try and deescalate what's going on, whatever it is. So I think that sort of dynamic awareness was bill from working there.

Cause I did that for about 14 years and then building that awareness of yourself and how to, I think, calibrates a good thing, how you can calibrate yourself to be effective on the [00:43:00] engineering, changing, tweaking just a little bit to be effective in the myriad of situations, we would find ourselves in women with.

Regardless of how big it was. Small group, man, 10 individuals, 20 individuals, but they're all individuals. They just are working together as a team. Hopefully.

Mark: Yeah, I'm going to, what's lovely about what you're talking to is the depth and richness of your experiences has a con had a context. You talked to the adaptability and the flexibility of that that'll work with one person, but it's not going to work with another you know, that, that approach of, okay, how do I, how do I, how do I match my style?

Why do I change my style? To best connect with this person. Not because I want to be Machiavellian about it, but purely because I want to connect with them because there's something that's really important. Yeah. So it's a, it's a lovely, it's a lovely, I love the way you explained that and you broke it down.

That's a very insightful, so

Scott: I was Gary Klein says once you gain insight, you can't go back to your old ways of. [00:44:00] Which I think is such a powerful quote. I mean, by that journey, we talk about every new insight, no matter how small or big it is, is that shift in perception, which is then the springboard for the next

Mark: one.

Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. And I love, I agree. It's embedded in my DNA now that you know, I, I, there were times when it, where I learned a lesson and then I went back and I, I. It's something again, out of ignorance and ended up hurting somebody or hurting myself and realizing actually, no, that's not something I ever want to do again, because it, it doesn't, it hasn't, it hasn't given me the purpose of the satisfaction or the is something far more deeper.

It just eroded that and took away from it. Some, some kind of essence. And so that, that, that, that was learnt as well. And so it's a great way. You, you, you lay that out, but. This P this piece around you, you can't go back. Not because no one, not because it's being enforced, I'm having, in some cases, in a pragmatic data is going to be enforced like crime or whatever, [00:45:00] but there might come a point where you, but you make a decision and you go, that's just, that's just not going to be good for me.

I'm not going to go back and play with that again. But again, there's many circumstances in many situations. We've got to learn stuff to, to come out the other side. And sometimes we done

Scott: no, and I think it's quite cause I, I think the one way to possibly look at closing this off, when you were talking is about the, you used the word choice throughout this deal conversation as a word you choose, choose, or a choice was used multiple times.

And I, I agree that we'll get to the point is we can consciously be more aware of constantly to. What we choose to do in that position rather than unconsciously making that choice that we're not aware of. So I think that's that other spot. And rather than reacting you say, I can recognize I'm not in a good place at the minute.

I'm nervous or I'm uncomfortable. Let's take a pause. [00:46:00] Let's now think. And then now let's act, I think, just to say building that space, that thinking space though, as you say, that pausing spaces is an important aspect.

Mark: Yeah, this that's great. It's a great place to finish. Cause I think it, it, it brings it all full circle is, is when you, when you start to acknowledge and become aware of and are vulnerable to what is my choice in this situation?

What do I really want to do as you sort of start to shine a light on that, that piece of your awareness? You're spot on You, you become more aware of the different pieces that are there for you. And it's, it's not sort of it's, it's fascinating to me because as you do that, you can, you can start to acknowledge how things might play out.

And there's that piece that we come back to, which is, you may realize that you don't want to go back. It could be, it could be an old relationship, or it could be an old flame and you go, actually, you [00:47:00] know what, it's great Spock there, but actually I ended up worse off. So I'm not gonna, I'm not. Go back into that.

And I'm going to keep an eye open for those kinds of qualities. When when I, you know, those kinds of dynamics when when I meet other people and maybe, maybe I just look after myself differently. So this, this choice pieces in the moment. Well, what is it that's actually going on for me? What do I want to do with it?

But doing it from an authentic place, not a, not a Machiavellian, I'm going to screw you over. And I'm just, and I'm not naive enough to think that doesn't happen. Of course it happens. It's we live in a, we live in an interesting world, put it mildly. But there's something very powerful when you see people stepping into a space, which is authentic.

When it's present, when it's vulnerable and there's a real sense of connection that can be created. And that, that is really standing out. Significantly than the old ways of doing things. And you can see those people who are making these choices differently and they come with, they come with a very different level of thinking.[00:48:00]

And I see it in the younger generation. I see the strength and an awareness that my generation didn't necessarily always know. And I'm fascinated by it because I'm like, wow, wait, what have they, can I look at my daughter in some car and some of her friends and, and that age group at my daughter's school.

And I go, these young girls are, are stronger and have a level of wisdom with them. That that is I've, I'm really pleased to see that's just from again from a very humble place. But different to, to when I was growing up, I mean, there's many reasons, but this self-awareness to bring it back home. This self awareness is such a, such a powerful piece.

And within that is his choice. And when we choose things differently and when we choose something different for ourselves and potentially for those around us, it's it has real. Purpose and there's the link to sort of sustained or sustainability anyway, but that might be another conversation. [00:49:00]

Scott: One of many, possibly one of many.

So what

Mark: do you want to call it?

Scott: And he's got start with with, how might we, so how might we,

Mark: how might we

become aware to help each other

Scott: and might we become aware to help you. Okay. I like that. I'll go to white this time or else I'll forget it. '

Mark: cause I'm probably will. Well, it's

Scott: terrible. You got a record again, is recognizing where it is in memory is not a great one minutes, you know, each other, I think, cause I live in the moment so much anything that happened five minutes ago, that's gone now.

I'm here.

And that's definitely me out, outside, out of mind.

Mark: Just to say, Scott, thank you. And this is the first time I've done something like this. And It's been good to do. And I've really enjoyed it, but to anyone who's listening. Thanks for listening as well.

Scott: That'd be people listening.

Trust

Mark: me. We've read a rattled on a little bit, but I appreciate you taking the time to talk to me. Thank you.

Scott: Welcome. Okay, so mark, thank [00:50:00] you very much for your time.