The Deconstructionists

Ep. 246 - Dr. Janet Kellogg Ray "Fish With Feet: Human Evolution and the Image of God" pt. 1

What if accepting evolution didn’t require abandoning faith?Dr. Janet Kellogg Ray returns to The Deconstructionists to talk about her new book, Fish with Feet: Human Evolution and the Image of God.Janet is a science educator, author, and Jesus follower who was herself raised within creationism. In her latest book, she tackles one of the most persistent points of tension between modern science and certain expressions of Christianity: human evolution.In Part One of our conversation, we dig into the remarkable story of how life developed on Earth and eventually produced us—from our ancient aquatic ancestors to primates, early humans, and Homo sapiens. Along the way, Janet helps unpack some of the evidence for evolution found in fossils, anatomy, genetics, and even the strange imperfections built into our own bodies.We also explore why human evolution remains particularly difficult for many Christians to accept, why familiar objections like “If humans evolved from monkeys, why are there still monkeys?” misunderstand how evolution actually works, and what happens when the scientific evidence appears to conflict with the way we were taught to read Scripture.And underneath it all is a much bigger question:If human beings are part of the evolutionary story of life on Earth, what does it actually mean to say that we are made in the image of God?That’s where things get really interesting.This is Part One of our conversation with Dr. Janet Kellogg Ray.Fish with Feet: Human Evolution and the Image of God is available from Eerdmans Publishing and wherever books are sold.Advertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

What Comes Next: The Future of The Deconstructionists

After more than ten years of conversations about faith, doubt, theology, identity, and the questions that reshape us, The Deconstructionists is entering its final chapter.In this special update, John reflects on how the show began, the philosophy that guided it, what has changed in the deconstruction space over the past decade, and why the time feels right to bring the weekly podcast to a close at the end of 2026.But this isn’t goodbye just yet.There are still new guests and conversations ahead, the full archive will remain available, and the door will always be open for future special episodes.John also introduces what comes next: Who We Become, a new podcast exploring the moments that divide our lives into before and after — and the people we become on the other side.Learn more and join the mailing list at thisiswhowebecome.com.Advertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

Ep. 245 - Rev. Sally Miller "The Modern Chaplain" pt. 2

What does it really mean to be present with another person?In Part Two of John's conversation with Rev. Sally Pelinka Miller, the discussion moves beyond defining modern chaplaincy and into the heart of spiritual care itself.Rather than offering easy answers or trying to fix people's pain, today's chaplains often practice something much more difficult: accompanying people through uncertainty, grief, trauma, and profound life transitions. In a culture that values certainty, productivity, and quick solutions, this conversation explores the transformative power of simply showing up.Rev. Sally shares how contemporary chaplains understand their work—not as experts dispensing wisdom, but as compassionate companions helping people navigate some of life's most sacred and challenging moments.Together, John and Rev. Sally discuss:Why presence can be more powerful than having the right words.What chaplains can teach all of us about listening.The role of empathy, curiosity, and accompaniment in spiritual care.How grief, suffering, and meaning intersect.Why human connection is becoming increasingly valuable in an age shaped by technology and AI.What it looks like to care for people across different faiths, beliefs, and worldviews.How we can all become better companions to those who are hurting.Whether you're a person of faith, someone deconstructing long-held beliefs, or simply interested in becoming more present for the people around you, this conversation offers practical wisdom and a hopeful vision of what compassionate care can look like.Guest:Rev. Sally Pelinka Miller, MDiv, MA (DMin candidate), is a Board Certified Chaplain (APC), an ACPE Certified Educator, and Manager of Clinical Pastoral Education at The Johns Hopkins Hospital. She is the author of the forthcoming New Images of Spiritual Care, which highlights the diverse voices and innovative practices shaping contemporary chaplaincy.Follow The DeconstructionistsIf you enjoyed this conversation, we'd love your support. Subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts, leave a rating or review, and share this episode with someone who might find it meaningful.Follow us on social media for episode clips, behind-the-scenes content, and updates on upcoming conversations exploring faith, doubt, history, psychology, and what it means to be human.Advertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

Ep. 244 - Rev. Sally Miller "The Modern Chaplain" pt. 1

What comes to mind when you hear the word "chaplain"?For many of us, it's an older Christian minister carrying a Bible into a hospital room to pray with patients. But what if that image no longer reflects the reality of modern spiritual care?In Part One of this conversation, John sits down with Rev. Sally Pelinka Miller, board-certified chaplain, ACPE Certified Educator, and Manager of Clinical Pastoral Education at Johns Hopkins Hospital, to explore how chaplaincy has transformed over the past several decades.Today's chaplains come from an extraordinary range of religious and philosophical traditions—including Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Buddhism, Humanism, Unitarian Universalism, and more. Rather than focusing on converting people or providing religious answers, modern spiritual care emphasizes presence, curiosity, accompaniment, and compassionate listening during life's most vulnerable moments.Together, John and Rev. Sally discuss:Why most of us have an outdated picture of what a chaplain is.The fascinating history and evolution of chaplaincy.What board-certified chaplains actually do.Why spiritual care is about far more than religion.How hospitals care for patients with widely different beliefs and worldviews.The shift from authority and hierarchy toward relationship and mutuality.Why "being present" can sometimes be more healing than having the right answers.Whether you're deeply religious, spiritually curious, deconstructing your faith, or simply interested in what it means to care well for another human being, this conversation offers a fresh perspective on one of the most misunderstood professions in healthcare.Guest:Rev. Sally Pelinka Miller, MDiv, MA (DMin candidate) is a Board Certified Chaplain (APC), an ACPE Certified Educator, and serves as Manager of Clinical Pastoral Education at The Johns Hopkins Hospital. She is currently writing New Images of Spiritual Care, a book exploring the diverse voices and evolving practices shaping modern chaplaincy.Follow The DeconstructionistsIf you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe, leave a review, and share it with a friend. Your support helps more people discover thoughtful conversations about faith, doubt, spirituality, history, and the questions that matter most.Follow us on social media for episode clips, behind-the-scenes content, and updates on upcoming interviews.Website: www.thedecontructionists.org Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/c/TheDeconstructionistsPodcastAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

Ep. 243 - Jacob & Esau: The Misunderstood Brothers

What if one of the Bible's most famous stories isn't really about a hero and a villain?For centuries, many of us have been taught to read the story of Jacob and Esau through a familiar lens: Jacob, despite his flaws, is God's chosen son, while Esau becomes little more than the cautionary tale of the brother who "despised his birthright." But what happens when we slow down, revisit the text, and listen to voices from within the Jewish tradition?In this episode of The Deconstructionists, John explores one of Genesis' most fascinating—and misunderstood—relationships. Drawing on insights from Rabbi Jonathan Sacks in Essays on Ethics and Not in God's Name, as well as reflections from Rabbi David Wolpe, this conversation examines how the story of Jacob and Esau challenges simplistic readings of Scripture and invites us into a richer understanding of reconciliation, identity, and what it means to become fully human.Rather than reading Genesis as a collection of moral fables with obvious heroes and villains, we consider the possibility that the biblical authors were doing something far more profound: exposing the cycles of sibling rivalry, fear, favoritism, and violence that have echoed throughout human history.Along the way, we explore why Jacob spends so much of his life wrestling—not only with God, but with himself—and why his eventual reunion with Esau may be one of the most emotionally powerful moments in all of Scripture.Could it be that the real transformation wasn't simply Jacob becoming Israel... but two brothers finally seeing one another clearly?In This EpisodeWhy Jacob and Esau are far more complex than they're often portrayedThe ancient Near Eastern world behind the Genesis narrativeWhy Jewish interpretations often differ from traditional Christian readingsWhat Rabbi Jonathan Sacks means when he argues that Genesis repeatedly challenges sibling rivalryHow Not in God's Name reframes stories of election and chosennessThe surprising significance of Jacob's wrestling match before meeting EsauWhy Jacob sends gifts ahead of himself—and whether they are simply a bribe or something deeperRabbi David Wolpe's reflection on mirrors in the ancient world, and how Jacob and Esau may have seen themselves in one another after decades apartThe emotional power of forgiveness and reconciliation in Genesis 33What Jacob and Esau still have to teach us about family, conflict, identity, and grace todayBooks ReferencedRabbi Jonathan Sacks — Essays on EthicsRabbi Jonathan Sacks — Not in God's Name: Confronting Religious ViolenceAdditional insights discussed from the teachings of Rabbi David WolpeA Few Questions We ExploreWas Jacob always intended to be understood as the hero of this story?What does it really mean to be "chosen" in Genesis?Why does the Bible spend so much time telling stories about rival siblings?What changes when we read Genesis through the lens of Jewish scholarship?Is reconciliation ever possible without first confronting who we've become? Like the music? Check out Forrest Clay anywhere you find your music! The song featured on this episode is "Does God" off his Recover EP. Love the work we're doing?! Support us by joining the Patreon family here: https://www.patreon.com/c/thedeconstructionistspodcast/membershipStay up on all things Deconstructionists here: www.thedeconstructionists.org Advertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy