Be the Person You Want Your Kids to Be: Episode 219

You can listen wherever you get your podcasts or check out the fully edited transcript of our interview at the bottom of this post.

In this episode of The Peaceful Parenting Podcast, Corey and I talk about modeling the person you want your child to be—instead of trying to force them into having good character or good values. We discussed the difference between being a gardener or a carpenter parent, raising kind and helpful children, and how to trust the modeling process. We give lots of examples of what this has looked like for parents in our community as well as in our own homes.

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We talk about:

* 00:00 — Intro + main idea: be the person you want your child to be

* 00:02 — How kids naturally model what we do (funny real-life stories)

* 00:04 — When modeling goes wrong (rabbit poop + shovel story)

* 00:06 — Not everything kids do is learned from us (fight/flight/freeze)

* 00:08 — Gardener vs. carpenter parenting metaphor

* 00:10 — Why “don’t do anything for your child” is flawed advice

* 00:12 — Helping builds independence (adult example + kids stepping up)

* 00:17 — Hunt, Gather, Parent: let kids help when they’re little

* 00:19 — How to encourage helping without power struggles

* 00:23 — Family team vs. rigid chores

* 00:26 — Trust, faith, and “I’m sure you’ll do it next time”

* 00:29 — Respecting kids like people (adultism)

* 00:31 — Living values without preaching

* 00:36 — It’s the small moments that shape kids

* 00:38 — Don’t be a martyr: let some things go

* 00:40 — When this works (and when it doesn’t)

* 00:42 — Closing reflections on trust and nurturing

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* Hunt, Gather, Parent podcast episode

* Evelyn & Bobbie bras

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xx Sarah and Corey

Your peaceful parenting team-

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Podcast Transcript:

Sarah: Hey, everyone. Welcome back to another episode of the Peaceful Parenting Podcast. I have Corey with me today. Hi, Corey.

Corey: Hey, Sarah.

Sarah: I’m so happy to be talking about what we’re going to be talking about today because it’s something that comes up a lot—both with our coaching clients and in our membership.

Today we’re talking about modeling the person you want your child to be—being the person you want your child to be—instead of trying to force them into having good character or good values.

Corey: This is one of my favorite topics because people don’t really think about it. There’s that phrase that’s so rampant: “Do as I say, not as I do.” And we’re actually saying: do the exact opposite of that.

Sarah: Yeah. And I think if people did this, that phrase wouldn’t have to exist. Because if you’re being the person you want your child to be, then you really can just say, “Do as I do.”

I guess that “Do what I say, not what I do” comes up when you’re not being the person you want your child to be. And it shows how powerful it is that kids naturally follow what we do, right?

Corey: Yes.

Sarah: Yeah. We both have some funny stories about this in action—times we didn’t necessarily think about it until we remembered or saw it reflected back. Do you want to share yours first? It’s so cute.

Corey: Yeah. When I was a little girl, my favorite game to play was asking my mom if we could play “Mummy and her friend.” We did this all the time. My mom said she had to do it over and over and over with me.

We’d both get a little coffee cup. I’d fill mine with water, and we’d pretend we were drinking tea or coffee. Then we would just sit and have a conversation—like I heard her having with her friend.

And I’d always be like, “So, how are your kids?”—and ask the exact things I would hear my mom asking her friend.

Sarah: That’s so cute. So you were pretending to be her?

Corey: Yes.

Sarah: That is so cute.

I remember once when Lee was little—he was probably around three—he had a block, like a play block, a colored wooden block. And he had it pinched between his shoulder and his ear, and he was doing circles around the kitchen.

I said, “What are you doing?” And he said, “I’m talking on the phone.”

And I realized: oh my gosh. I walk around with the cordless phone pinched between my shoulder and my ear, and I walk around while I’m talking on the phone. So for him, that was like: this is how you talk on the phone.

Corey: That’s such a funny reference, too. Now our kids would never—my kids would never do that, right?

Sarah: No, because they never saw you with a phone like that.

Corey: Right.

Sarah: That is so funny. It’s definitely a dated reference.

You also have a funny story, too, that’s sort of the opposite—less harmless things our kids copy us doing. Do you want to share your… I think it’s a rabbit poop story.

Corey: It is. We’re just going to put it out there: it’s a rabbit poop story. This is how we accidentally model things we probably don’t want our kids doing.

So, if you were listening this time last year, I got a new dog. She’s a lab, and her favorite thing is to eat everything—especially things she’s not supposed to eat, which I’m sure a lot of people can relate to.

Our area is rampant with rabbits, so we have this problem with rabbit droppings. And my vet has informed me that despite the fact that dogs love it, you need to not let them eat it.

So I’m always in the backyard—if you’re hearing this, it’s really silly—having to try and shovel these up so the dog’s not eating them.

Listeners, we’re looking into a longer-term solution so rabbits aren’t getting into our backyard, but this is where we’re at right now.

Whenever I noticed I’d be shoveling them up and I’d see her trying to eat something else I hadn’t shoveled yet, I’d say, “Leave it,” and then give her a treat to reward her.

One day, my little guy—little C—who loves taking part in dog training and is so great with animals, he saw our dog eating something she shouldn’t. He ran and got his little sand shovel and went up to her holding it—kind of waving it at her—like, “Leave it.”

And I was like, why are you shaking a shovel at the dog? Totally confused about what he was doing.

And he’s like, “Well, this is how you do it, Mommy.”

And I was like… oh. I shake a shovel at the dog. You just say, “Leave it,” and then you give her the treat—not the shovel.

Not an hour later, I’m shoveling again, she’s trying to eat something she shouldn’t, and I’m like, “Leave it, leave it.” I look at my hand and I’m holding the shovel up while saying it to her.

Sarah: Right?

Corey: And I was like, “Oh, this is why he thinks that.” Because every time I’m saying this to her, I’m holding a shovel mid-scoop—trying to get on top of the problem.

Sarah: That’s so funny. And when you told me that the first time, I got the impression you maybe weren’t being as gentle as you thought you were. Like you were frustrated with the dog, and little C was copying that.

Corey: Yeah. Probably that too, right? Because it’s a frustrating problem. Anyone who’s tried to shovel rabbit droppings knows it’s an impossible, ridiculous task.

So I definitely was a bit frustrated. He was picking up both on the frustration and on what I was physically doing.

And I also think this is a good example to show parents: don’t beat yourself up. Sometimes we’re not even aware of the things we’re doing until we see it reflected back at us.

Sarah: Totally.

And now that you mentioned beating yourself up: I have a lot of parents I work with who will say, “I heard my kid yelling and shouting, and I know they pick that up from me—my bad habits of yelling and shouting.”

I just want to say: there are some things kids do out of fight, flight, or freeze—like their nervous system has gotten activated—that they would do whether you shouted at them or not.

It’s not that everything—every hard thing—can be traced back to us.

Kids will get aggressive, and I’ve seen this: kids who are aggressive, who have not ever seen aggression. They’ve never seen anyone hitting; they’ve never been hit. But they will hit and kick and spit and scream because that’s the “fight” of fight, flight, or freeze.

So it’s not that they learned it somewhere.

And often parents will worry, “What are they being exposed to at school?” But that can just be a natural instinct to protect oneself when we get dysregulated.

Also, kids will think of the worst thing they can say—and it’s not necessarily that they’ve heard it.

I remember one time Asa got really mad at Lee. They were like three and six. And Asa said, “I’m going to chop your head off and bury you in the backyard.”

Oh my goodness—if I hadn’t known it wasn’t necessarily something he learned, I would’ve been really worried. But it was just a reflection of that fight, flight, or freeze instinct that he had.

So I guess it’s: yes, kids can learn things from us, and I’m not saying they can’t. Your example—with the dog, the rabbit poop, and the shovel—of course kids can pick up unsavory behavior from us.

But that doesn’t mean that every single hard thing they do, they learned from us. And also, they have good natures. There are things that come from them that are good as well, that they didn’t learn from us.

Corey: That’s right.

Sarah: I want to ground this conversation in a great metaphor from a book by Allison Gopnik. I think the title is The Gardener and the Carpenter: What the New Science of Child Development Tells Us About the Relationship Between Parents and Children.

To really embrace what we’re talking about—being the person you want your child to be—you have to believe in the gardener metaphor of parenting.

The gardener metaphor is: your child is like a seed that has within it everything it needs to grow into a beautiful plant. You provide the water, sunlight, proper soil, and then the plant does the work of growing on its own.

The carpenter metaphor is: you have to build your child—make your child into who they’re going to be.

This idea we’re talking about—be the person you want your child to be—that’s the soil and the light and the water your child needs to grow into a beautiful plant, or a beautiful human being.

It’s not that we’re doing things to them to turn them into good humans.

And honestly, most parents, when you ask them what they wish for their child, they want their kid to be a good person when they grow up.

I want to say to parents: it’s easier than you think. The most influential thing you can do to help your child grow up to be a good person is to be the person you want them to be.

This goes up against a lot of common parenting advice.

One phrase I wish did not exist—and I don’t know where it came from, but if anyone knows, let me know—is: “You should never do anything for your child that they can do for themselves.”

Such a terrible way to think about relationships.

Can you imagine if I said to your partner, “You should never do anything for Corey that she can do for herself”? It’s terrible.

I make my husband coffee in the morning—not because he can’t make it himself, but as an act of love. For him to come downstairs, getting ready for work, and have a nice hot coffee ready. Of course he can make his own coffee. But human relationships are built on doing things for each other.

Corey: Yes. I think that’s so profound.

I think about how I was just telling you before we started recording how we’ve been spending our weekends skiing. When I first started skiing with my husband—even though I’d grown up skiing—I’d never done it as much as him. He helped me so much. He did so much of the process for me so I didn’t have too much to think about.

Now that we do it all the time, he said to me the other day, “Look at how independent you’ve gotten with this. You can do so much of this yourself. You’re managing so much more on the hill.”

He was so proud of me, and I was thinking: imagine if he hadn’t done that for me. If he had been like, “Just figure it out. We’re on the ski hill. You’re an adult.”

I probably wouldn’t have enjoyed it very much. But he did lots of things for me that I could have done for myself, and that love and support helped nurture the shared love we had.

Sarah: Yeah.

And I think it’s tough because our culture is so individualistic. Hyper-individualistic—everyone should stand on their own two feet and do things without help and make it on their own. And that has really leaked into our parenting.

One of the major fears I hear from parents is that their kid won’t be independent.

So a lot of parents push kids to be independent—and what that ends up looking like is the opposite of what we’re talking about.

Part of the reason there’s pressure for individualism is because we see it as a way for kids to turn into “good people.”

But so many qualities of being a good person are about human interconnectedness: caring about other people, being kind, being helpful, being conscientious, thinking about what’s the right thing to do.

All of that comes from how we’re modeling it—the gardener metaphor.

But there’s always this tension: wanting your kid to be helpful, caring, kind, and thinking you have to make them be those things instead of letting that gardener process develop.

I’m on the other side of this because my kids are grownups, so I’ve seen it develop. One of the things I realized a couple years ago is this progression I saw with Maxine.

One time we were on our way out the door. My husband happened to be leaving for work at the same time we were leaving for the school bus. Maxine was probably around seven, and I was carrying her backpack for her.

My husband—who also has that individualism thing—said, “Why are you carrying her backpack? She’s seven. She can carry her own backpack.”

And I was like, “I know, but she likes me to carry it, and I don’t mind.”

And I really knew that someday she would want to carry her own backpack.

Sure enough, a couple years later, she’s carrying her own backpack, doesn’t ask me anymore. I didn’t think about it for a while.

Then one day we were coming from the grocery store and had to walk a little ways with heavy groceries. She insisted on carrying all the groceries and wouldn’t let me carry anything.

I was like, “I can carry some groceries, honey.” And she’s like, “No, Mom. I’ve got it.”

She’s carrying all the heavy groceries by herself. This full-circle moment: not only was she helping, she wanted to do it for me. She didn’t want me to have to carry the heavy groceries.

I just love that.

Corey: Yeah. And I love when we have these conversations because sometimes it feels like a leap of faith—you don’t see this modeled in society very much. It’s a leap of faith to be like, “I can do these things for my children, and one day they will…”

But it’s not as long as people think. I’m already seeing some of that blooming with my 10-year-old.

Sarah: Yeah.

And Sophie in our membership shared something on our Wednesday Wins. Her kids are around 10, eight or nine, and seven. She’s always followed this principle—modeling who you want your kid to be.

She said she always worried, “They’re never going to help.” And whenever you hear “never” and “always,” there’s anxiety coming in.

But she shared she had been sick and had to self-isolate. Her kids were making her food and bringing it to her. She would drive to the store, and they would go in and get the things needed.

She was amazed at how they stepped up and helped her without her having to make them. They just saw that their mom needed help and were like, “We’re there, Mom. What do you need?”

Corey: Oh—“What do you need?” That’s so sweet.

Sarah: I love that.

One more story: this fall, my kids are 20—Lee’s going to be 25 next week—21, and 18.

My husband and I were going away for the weekend, leaving Maxine home by herself. It was fall, and we have a lot of really big trees around our house, so there was major eavestroughs—gutters—cleaning to do, getting leaves off the roof and bagging all the leaves in the yard. A full-day job.

My husband had been like, “I have so much work to do. I don’t want to deal with that when I come home.”

So I asked the boys if they could come over and the three of them could do the leaf-and-gutter job. And they were like, “Absolutely.”

They surprised their dad. When we came home, they had done the entire thing. They spent a day doing all the leaves and gutter cleaning. None of them were like, “I don’t want to,” or “I’m busy.” They didn’t ask me to pay them—we didn’t pay them. They just were like, “Sure, we’ll help Dad. We know he has a lot of work right now.”

I just love that.

Corey: Oh, I love that. When they’re so little, they can’t really help take the burden off you. But knowing that one day they will—it’s such a nice thing to know.

Although this brings us to that good point about Hunt, Gather, Parent.

Sarah: Yeah. If people haven’t listened to that episode, we’ll link to it in the show notes.

Let’s talk about some things you can do to actively practice what we’re talking about—modeling who we want our kids to be.

One idea is really encapsulated by Michaeleen Doucleff, who wrote Hunt, Gather, Parent. She traveled in Mexico, spent time with Mayan people, and saw kids doing household stuff without being asked—helpful, cooking, cleaning, doing laundry, taking care of younger siblings in this beautiful way that was pretty unrecognizable by North American standards.

She went down and lived with them and studied what they did. She found it started with letting kids help when they were little.

The two- or three-year-old who wanted to help a parent make food or do things in the garden—rather than the parents doing it without the kid around, or giving them something fake to help with, or not letting them do it—those parents let kids do it.

Even if it took longer, even if the parent had to redo it later (not in front of them). They let their kids be imperfect helpers and enthusiastic helpers.

That’s an impulse we’ve all seen: kids want to help. And we often don’t let them because we say they’re too little or it takes too much time. And we end up thwarting that helping impulse.

Then when we really want them to help—when they’re actually capable—they’ve learned, “Helping isn’t my role,” because it got shut down earlier.

Corey: Exactly. And I really feel that for parents because schedules are so busy and we’re so rushed.

But you don’t have to do this all the time. It’s okay if there are sometimes where there’s a crunch. Pick times when it’s a little more relaxed—maybe on weekends or when you have a bit more space.

Sarah: Totally.

And while we’re talking about helping: this comes up a lot with parents I work with and in our membership. Parents will say, “I asked my kid to set the table and they said, ‘Why do I always have to do it?’”

This happened the other day with a client. I asked, “What was your child doing when you asked?” And she said, “He was snuggled up on the couch reading a book.”

And I was like: I can see how that’s frustrating—you could use help getting the table ready. But let’s zoom out.

Modeling might look like: “Okay, you’re tired. You’ve had a long day at school. You’re snuggled up reading. I’ll set the table right now.”

Being gracious. Even if they refuse sometimes, it’s okay to do it. But also, in that specific helping piece, we can look at the times when they help without being asked.

When I give parents the assignment to look for that, every parent says, “Oh, I won’t find any.” And then they come back and say, “Oh, I did find times.”

So when they do help—carry groceries, help a sibling—how can you make them feel good about it?

“Thank you. That saved so much time.” “I was going to help your brother but my hands were full—thank you.”

Pro-social behavior is reinforced when it feels good.

If you want them to help more, ask: “What would you like to do to help the family team?”

Not, “This is your job forever.” More like, “I’ve noticed setting the table isn’t a great time for you. What are some other things you could take on?” And if they don’t have ideas, brainstorm what’s developmentally appropriate.

Often there are things kids would like to do that you’ve just never thought of.

Corey: It’s true. It’s kind of like how adults divide jobs at home—often according to who likes what. But with kids we think, “I should just tell them what to do, and they should just do it.”

It makes sense to work with what they like.

Sarah: And also the flow of the family and schedule.

That’s why we never had chores in the strict sense. My kids helped out, but it was never “one person’s job” to do the dishwasher or take out the garbage.

Because inevitably I’d need the dishwasher emptied and that person wasn’t home, or they were doing homework. And if I said, “Can you do the dishwasher?” someone could say, “That’s not my job—that’s my brother’s job.”

So instead, if I needed something done, whoever was around: “Hey, can you take the garbage out?” I tried to keep it relatively equal, but it wasn’t a rigid assignment. And I think that helped create the family team idea.

Corey: Yes.

Sarah: And that “it’s someone’s job” thing is that individualism again.

You hear this: “Can you clean that up?” and if you haven’t been modeling cleaning up messes that aren’t your own, you might hear, “Well, I didn’t make that mess.”

But if you model: if they make a mess and you say, “Can you pick up your crayons?” and they’re like, “No,” then you can say, “Okay, sure, I’ll pick up the crayons for you,” and they have the experience of seeing someone clean up a mess that isn’t theirs.

They’re more likely to absorb: “Oh, yeah, I can help with messes that aren’t mine.”

Corey: I’ve really seen this play out in my house this winter. One child loves shoveling. The second there’s any snow, he’s like, “Time for me to shovel.” It doesn’t matter if it’s early morning or dark out—he’s out there shoveling.

And I’ve been blown away, because first of all, I do not like shoveling. It’s genuinely helpful.

But he’ll also be looking out for when the plow comes by—this doesn’t happen where you live on the island, but for lots of people: the plow makes a wall at the end of the driveway. Even if you already shoveled, you have a new wall.

He’ll keep looking: “Just watching out for the plow.” Like a little old man. The second it happens, he’s out there so everyone can leave the house as needed.

And he’s even admitted, “There are lots of jobs I don’t like, but I really love doing this. This is something I can do for everybody.”

Sarah: That’s so great. That’s a perfect example of letting them choose something that helps the family.

In terms of flexibility—doing things for them—how have you seen that play out? Because for me, when my kids were small, they did very little. We’d do “Let’s all tidy up,” but maybe they’d pick up three things and I’d pick up most of the things. We’d do a 10-minute tidy.

Mostly I did dishes, setting and clearing the table, all of that. But then I found that as they got older, they just started doing it.

And I never got into power struggles because, honestly, it was often easier to do it myself. Maybe that worked out because I didn’t have a grand vision—I just lived it, and then I saw them grow into doing a lot as they got older.

What about you? How are you seeing that balance between what you do for them and how you see them growing?

Corey: I’d say this is where you really have to have faith. Something that maybe wasn’t modeled for us.

This comes up with clients all the time: they get anxious—“They’re never going to clean up, they’re never going to be helpful, they’ll be entitled.” They get stuck in “never” because it’s not happening right away.

So when I tell people: invite them, and if they don’t want to do it, say something like, “You don’t want to do it this time. I’m sure you’ll do it next time.”

But mean it—not passive-aggressive. Not “I’m sure you’ll do it next time” as a threat. Actually mean: “I’m sure you’ll do it next time,” and then go about it with trust that they will eventually do it.

You’re holding space. You’re not being anxious about it.

Sarah: Yes—holding space, having faith.

Corey: And I think it’s giving ourselves—and the parents we work with—a permission slip.

You can tidy up for them without being angry about it. If you’re doing this like, “No one helps me,” that’s not going to work.

You have to truly trust the goodness of your children—that they’ll want to be like this.

Sarah: Yeah.

And I think some of it comes down to how we treat other adults.

If your partner normally does the dishes and says, “I’m exhausted from work,” hopefully there’s give-and-take. You pick up slack when they’re tired.

A lot of this is: how do you want to be treated? How do you treat other adults? And how can you work on treating kids the same way?

So often we don’t treat kids the way we treat adults. And sometimes that’s appropriate. But often it’s just a lack of respect.

I saw a comedy skit once where these moms were sitting around drinking wine, and at first it was normal, and then one goes to reach for the bottle and another slaps her hand: “You haven’t finished what you have in your glass. Finish what you have first.”

Someone interrupts, and the other says, “I was still speaking. Wait until I’m done speaking.”

And you’re like: oh my gosh, that’s what people do to kids all the time. If you see an adult do it to another adult, it’s funny—but it’s also jarring because it’s considered normal when people do it to kids.

Kids aren’t always seen as having the same rights or deserving the same respect as adults.

Corey: Yes. And I think Iris Chen talks about this. You did a podcast with her back in season one—adultism.

Sarah: Yes, adultism—like racism or sexism, but adultism: prioritizing adults’ needs and rights over children’s.

Corey: And that really stood out to me. If we treat them like the beautiful little people they are—not “just children,” but people—that goes a long way in what we’re talking about today.

Sarah: Yeah.

And the last big point is how this works with values.

Corey: We hear this a lot: parents get worried about values. They really value the environment and worry their kids aren’t living those values.

Like a parent who was upset their kids were buying candy made with palm oil because of how it’s harvested. “Why don’t my kids care?”

If we get preachy—“We can’t buy candy with palm oil,” “We only buy thrifted clothes”—it can turn into, “You’re trying to control me,” and then kids push the other way.

Versus if we live those values and give them room to play with them and figure out where they land, they tend to be more open—and more interested in the why.

A strange example from this weekend: I don’t really like those disposable hand warmers because you can only use them once. I prefer things we can use multiple times.

It was supposed to be really cold, so I was like, “Okay, I guess I’ll buy them.” I didn’t say anything weird about it. We used them.

At the end of the day, he had to throw them out, and he goes, “I don’t feel great about this. It was helpful, but I don’t know if it was helpful enough that we have to throw this in the garbage now.”

And I was like: that’s exactly how I feel. But I didn’t get preachy. He was able to think about it himself.

So even with values, we live them. If kids aren’t agreeing with our values, sometimes we have to give space and pull back. When someone’s pushing something on you, you often feel like not complying.

Sarah: Yeah. It becomes a power struggle.

And I do think there’s a difference between pushing and educating. You can give them information in an age-appropriate way, and you can say, “You can buy that with your own money, but I don’t want to support that, so I’m not going to.”

Not in a way that makes them feel terrible. Just: “These are my values.”

I’ve said this to my kids. Maxine was maybe 14 and said, “My phone’s broken. I need a new phone.”

I said, “What’s wrong?” She said, “My music library keeps going away and I have to download it.”

I started laughing and said, “That’s not enough to get a new phone.” I said, “My values are we use electronics until they’re broken. We don’t get a new phone because of a little glitch.”

You should see our minivan—it’s scraped up and old-looking. Maxine actually said we’re going somewhere with her boyfriend and his mom, and she said, “Can you please ask my boyfriend’s mother to drive?”

I said, “Why?” And she said, “Our car is so embarrassing.”

And I’m like, “It works great. We drive our cars into the ground.” That’s our family value.

And then last year, Maxine’s phone screen actually broke. She wanted a new phone, and I said, “My values—because of e-waste—are that I’d get it fixed if I were you. But I promise I won’t judge you if you want a new phone. Do what feels right for you.”

No guilt-tripping. And she chose to fix the screen instead of buying a new phone.

So these are examples—like your hand warmers—where we can give the information without being heavy. And they usually absorb our values over time.

Corey: Because it’s not just that moment—it’s hundreds of interactions.

And that’s actually empowering: you don’t need one big conversation. You get to show them these little things throughout life.

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Corey: I mean, if we’re talking about phones, goodness gracious—how long have I needed a new phone?

Sarah: I know. I’ve been wanting you to get a new phone so you can post Reels for me.

Corey: They’re like, “Corey, maybe you’ve taken this too far.” But I don’t know—the modeling I’ve given my children is that you can make a dead phone last for two extra years.

Sarah: And I like your point: it’s all of these interactions over and over again.

The opposite of what we’re talking about is you can’t tell your kids not to be materialistic if you go out and buy things you don’t need. You can’t tell them people are more important than phones if you’re on your phone all the time.

You really have to think about it. That’s why that “Do as I say, not as I do” sometimes gets used—because it’s hard. It’s hard to be the person you want your kids to be.

And it keeps us honest: who do we want to be? Who do we want them to be?

Corey: I mean, it’s that moment when I stood there holding the shovel and I was like, “Ah. I see.”

So we can see this as a beautiful thing for our own growth, too, because we’re going to keep realizing how much it matters.

Caveat, though: I don’t want parents to listen and feel pressure—like every moment they’re being watched and they must be perfect.

Because this is also a chance to model messing up and making repairs. So don’t take this as: you have to be perfect.

Sarah: And the other thing: if you’re listening and you’re like, “Why do I have to do everything around here? Sarah and Corey are saying clean up your kids’ messes, carry things for them, do the chores…”

I’m not saying every parent should be a martyr and never get help.

Remember what I said: where can your kids help? What are they already doing? What could they choose?

And I think I also let a lot of stuff go. My parents once came to visit and said, “Sarah, we really admire how you choose to spend time with your kids instead of cleaning up your house.”

I was like, I think that was a backhanded compliment. And also them noticing it was kind of a mess.

It wasn’t terrible or dirty. It was just: I didn’t have a perfect house, and I did everything myself.

I did a lot myself, but I didn’t do all the things some people think they need to do.

Corey: That totally makes sense. You’re basically saying: what can you let go of, too?

Sarah: Yeah. For the sake of the relationship.

And I think the last thing I wanted us to talk about is: does this ever not work?

You and I were thinking about objections.

If you’re living this way—gracious, helpful, flexible, modeling who you want them to be—you’re putting deposits in the Goodwill Bank. Your connection increases. They care what you think because that Goodwill Bank is nice and beefy.

The only time you could say it wouldn’t work is if you didn’t have a good relationship. But if you’re doing all this, it builds relationship—so I don’t even think you can say, “This doesn’t work.”

Nobody’s perfect. There were plenty of times I asked my kids to do things and they were grumpy, or I had to ask 10 times. It wasn’t like, “Of course, Mom, let me empty the dishwasher.” They were normal kids. But in general, if you trust the process and maturation, your kids move in that direction.

Corey: I’d add one other thing: it wouldn’t work if this is all you’re doing, with nothing else.

Sometimes people think peaceful parenting is passive, and what we’re saying can sound passive: “Just be who you want them to be.”

But there are also times you need to do something. Like we said: if you’re being the person you want to be and they’re never helping, there’s also a conversation: “What do you like to do?” There are collaborative steps.

This is the big philosophy—embodying who you want them to be—but there are also practical supports and conversations that help them be successful.

Sarah: Totally.

And the last thing is: remember this happens over time. Trust the growth process and maturation and brain development.

Remember that when they’re little, their agenda is not your agenda. And as they get older, they start to see the benefits: “Oh yeah, it is nice when the living room’s tidied up.”

When they’re little, they don’t have the same agenda as you. That’s a lot of why you get, “No, you do it.”

And I actually can’t believe I didn’t say this earlier, but a lot of times when we’re doing things for kids, they feel it as nurturing.

So sometimes when they don’t want to help, it’s their way of saying, “I want to make sure you’re taking care of me.” Sometimes that can look like refusal or not wanting to do things themselves.

Corey: Yeah, absolutely.

Sarah: Thanks, Corey.

Corey: Thank you.

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