Muslim Heaven Is WAY More Psycho Than You Think

What does a traditional Afghan or Pakistani Muslim actually believe happens in heaven? Not the sanitized Western or progressive version — the classic one drawn from the Hadith and mainstream interpretations.

Malcolm and Simone dig into the details: every believing man gets at least two wives (with no upper limit tied to piety), no woman in paradise is ever without a sister-wife, houris (created beings often described in highly physical terms), infinite sexual stamina, controllable pregnancy and aging for children born in heaven, the absence of bodily waste, the majority-female population of hell according to reports of Muhammad’s night journey, and the young male servants who attend the righteous. They also cover the process of death, the period in the grave, the immediate entry of prepubescent children, and the extremely graphic punishments of Islamic hell.The conversation then compares these beliefs to Mormon spirit-world ideas, traditional Christian heaven, and the Collinses’ own techno-puritan framework — examining how different afterlife incentives shape behavior toward spouses, non-believers, long-term civilization, and personal morality.

Want to dive deeper? Check out this episode’s companion page on the Techno-Puritan website. :)

Episode Transcript

Hello, Simone. I’m excited to be here with you today. Today we are going to learn what Muslims believe happens in heaven, and here I do not mean Western Muslims or apologist Muslims. I wanted to get an understanding of what your standard - Afghani man, Pakistani man would believe is going to happen to them after they die, and it is way crazier than you think, and it reframes for me why Muslims in Islamic culture and far progressive culture get along so well.

What?

Uh.

You’re like... So first, just a few to throw out some crazies here. Okay. If I were to convert to Islam-

Okay ...

when I die, you would believe and I would believe that I get at least one additional wife. No-

And I’m s- I’m okay with that allegedly ... no

Muslim man in heaven has fewer than two wives.

So wait, wait, wait.

If I, an Islamic woman, a believer, choose to marry a man I know that I’m gonna have a sister wife in heaven, at least

Absolutely. There is no getting around it. And-

Unless he goes to hell. Do I get a sixth one?

No, no, no, no. Even if he goes to hell, you, when you get to heaven, get married to a believing Muslim man as an extra one of his wives, and he will have at least two wives.

Wait, hold- oh.

No woman in heaven is in a relationship with a man withou- out a sister wife. So

you can’t be a female single in heaven?

Not allowed.

You’re not allowed to be single in heaven?

Not allowed to be single. And if a woman’s like, “But what if I don’t want that? Like, what if I get jealous?” What Muslims believe is a satisfying answer is, well, God just brainwashes you into being okay with it.

So- ... you don’t even

know. Which is cool. Everyone’s kind of poly in heaven. It’s fine.

He, He, He, he messes with your brain so that you no longer experience jealousy. And- Everyone

belongs to everyone else.

Yeah, no, it really does feel like one of those scary, like the faculty or something like that where I think too an American mindset, especially like a backwards American mindset, if somebody comes to you and they’re like, “There’ll be no pain.”

“There’ll be no suffering. There’ll be no...” And it’s like, but it’s not me anymore. Right. It’s something else.

Yeah. It’s a pod person.

It is so much better. There’s no fear or pain. It’s beautiful. And you We’ll be beautiful. No problems or worries. We want you. No pain, Stan? We’re gonna come in here and I’ll show you some f*****g pain!

So you’re gonna kill me is what you’re trying to say. Yes.

Other crazy facts about heaven.

Okay.

Well, the number of additional wives I get. So the crazy thing is if, if you help me be an extra good Muslim man-

Okay

the better I am as a Muslim man, the better you make me as your, my wife, the more additional wives you need to deal with.

Oh, man.

And the, the 72 wives that martyrs get- Right ... you could get way over 72 wives.

Oh.

It’s said that some men live in tents where there’s so many women that you can’t-

Wait. All you get in heaven is a tent?

name them all. Are, is this a FEMA heaven? What, what is this?

Yeah, I’d ... It’s a, we’ll get to it. It’s weird. Oh, another thing. You can have babies in heaven. And- Oh, no ... you can have a baby, and you can make the gestation whatever lengths you wish. So you could make the gestation a day if you wanted to.

Okay.

You could make the gestation a week if you wanted to, and then you could have them age at any speed you want

So there are no diapers in heaven if you don’t want them. Okay.

Oh, well, also all of your uncleanness. You don’t menstruate anymore. I think you don’t pee or poo anymore.

Oh.

No pooping in heaven.

But what’s really interesting about these babies born in heaven-

Okay ...

that gets me is they have human souls. Like, they are actual human-souled babies, but they don’t have to go through the trials that God made all of the rest of humanity go through- Oh ... to get into this heaven, which seems- So it’s just- Why did we all have to go through it and these souls don’t have to go through it?

It seems bizarre and unfair. Yeah. But-

Hmm ...

then again, these people... Oh, another fun one about women in heaven. Okay. So Muhammad said that when he went to hell, he saw many more women in hell than men. Hell was majority female. And when he came out- Hell is female. That’s... ... he saw far fewer females.

So, you know, straight

up- No, how is that po- ... misogyny There cannot be far fewer females because every man has all these wives.

Well-

This is mathematically impossible ...

hold on, because a lot of these wives might be hurers, or hur- hu- hur- Hurers? It sounds like w****s, okay? But it’s spelled like H-U-R-O something.

The point being-

From now on, we need to spell w****s that way ...

is they are constructed beings that are not fully human. And they are meant to look like y- young, beautiful maidens.

I- So they’re sex bots. You have sex bots in heaven.

They are sex bots, yeah, and the Hadith spends a lot of time talking about, like, how nice their breasts are and that,

They’re, they’re real dolls.

They are real dolls in heaven.

You, no, you as a man get infinite stamina for sex. Explicitly it says, “Infinite stamina for sex.”

Wait, I thought... This is one of the circles of hell. This is, this is lust. Why are we lust maxing in heaven?

Well, actually, this is the point I’m gonna get to. It made me realize that Islam is, above all else, a max hedonism religion.

Yeah, no kidding. Like, I mean-

No other religion is like, “Yeah, you get all the sex bots you want in heaven.” Right? Like, you-

Even like, “Well, don’t worry. In heaven, you’ll be stripped of this licentiousness and these, these basal drives. You can rise above.” And, and- Yeah, no ... with Islam, they’re like, “Don’t worry.

The entire point of all of this is to be super freaking hedonistic.” It’s infinite heaven sex, and then- Oh

my God ... then you have all the babies you want.

This is... Well, what kind of... I mean, that’s the... Ugh. I, I’m speechless

I’m actually this is where I think it, it works pretty interesting with techno puritanism

No, no, no Because- The twain shall never meet. I’m seeing that we are incompatible

N- well, hold on, hold on.

You might think we’re more compatible than you

would think Okay. Sure. Explain this to me

So within the techno puritan afterlife we haven’t done our full afterlife tract series yet, but I do have the research notes for it, because I’ve been doing a lot of research on it recently. And people know we think that you’re going to be raised again into a new body, and that that body will likely, because it’s described in the Bible as being neither physical nor spiritual, likely some form of simulation in an artificial environment that’s given.

And so the question w- is, is what are those environments like? And we know that some people are given work in heaven, and some people reign over others in heaven, and some people reign over cities in heaven. And so what does that mean? And so what it could mean is that heaven is sort of like a tiered system.

It’s very clear that souls are tiered in traditional Christian heaven, and so in techno puritan heaven, yes. This is our weird belief system for people who do not know. But what, because it says that some people can be like angels, we would think, well, some people, if you’re, like, good enough in this series of simulations, you leave the simulation and you reenter future society, potentially as an AI on a spaceship or something like that, or either in, like, a humanoid body or whatever- Yeah

form the world has taken at that point. But Muslims would be forever trapped, even the good ones, in their heaven, and never brought into the real world again, because what they cared for more than anything was an afterlife of pure hedonism. And so their souls are permanently trapped in hedonistic simulations.

Which is what they wanted anyway, so it’s not like we’re doing anything bad to them. You know, they, they did all of this so they could get the hedonistic simulation. But hold on. I’ve, I’ve... Big deviant here. I haven’t mentioned the young boys yet. You also get, Oh, I should talk more about the houris.

So the, these things in heaven now some Muslims believe that every truly believing Muslim male gets at least two real women in heaven, and then they get houris on top of that. Whereas others think... And the math on that just doesn’t make sense. There’s no way you could have every true believing Muslim man get two women, and men are more righteous than women.

That, that, that just doesn’t make sense. There’s slightly more women than men in the world, but it’s like 1% more. Yeah ... that’s the argument. ‘Cause I asked, “How can you explain this?” And the, the AI was like, “Well, you know, there’s more women born.” And I’m like, “That, that, that doesn’t explain the two to one math.”

Not enough. Not enough. Yeah.

Yeah.

But it seems like the majority of Muslims, what they believe is the additional women are made up- The houris ... the houris. And these creatures that are made for- Muslim men’s pleasure in heaven. I mean, really, a- a- or not, I’ll note, people are like, “Wait, so then the wife has to compete with these sexbots?”

It’s like, no, she doesn’t, because it said all throughout the Hadiths that the these additional ones, the houris, are way less hot than real women are. And the reason why they’re less hot is because they haven’t undergone the moral trials of a real li- l- life.

Okay. And so that- So you’re hotter if you’ve withstood ha- hardship.

That’s kinda... I appreciate that, kind

of. Mm. Yeah, I appreciate that.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah ...

so, oh, it’s also, so the little boy servants, I’ve gotta talk about them. Oh, God. So it goes into, and it spends a lot of time on, like- It, it, like, the words kind of, like, creep you out if you’re reading it. Like, if you ask an AI about them, it has to be, like, very explicitly they are not used for sex.

Even though it goes on and on about how pretty they are.

No homo. No homo. Oh my god,

Greg. But no homo. But y- they are very pretty. They’re like... It, it, it makes that clear, like, very pretty, young I, I think explicitly underage males act as slaves for you in heaven. And these are another class of created bil- beings like the, the houris.

Now note having young child slaves was actually very common for Muslims during the periods where this Hadith tradition was growing. So, as I, I have talked about before Islam worked really well and did really well during the period where it acted as only the, the masters believed it. Like, only the people who ran society believed it, and none of the, the lower classes believed it.

Mm-hmm. Because it is basically built to be a slave religion, right? Like, as we point out, even Muhammad owned sex slaves, right? Like, it’s, it’s sort of designed to be a religion of a ruling class. And it works really well when it’s the religion... Well, not really well, but I, I mean, Islam had a significant period of expansion and success until it reached all levels of society, and then you began to get breakdown.

But because there’s also a totalizing religion. Also note here, very interesting the lowest level of hell in Islam is for hypocrites. And at first I was like, “Oh, that’s really awesome.” Like, “I don’t like hypocrites either. G- good on you for being so harsh with them.”

Okay.

And then I looked up what it meant by hypocrites, and what it means by hypocrites is individuals who say that they b- follow Islam, but don’t really in their hearts believe it’s all true.

Oh, so just infidels that... Okay.

Well f- well, no, but it’s, it’s infidels who pretended to convert so that they could get, like, power in society, which actually happened a lot when Muslims acted as a ruling class-

Mm ...

in a number of regions. Anyway, back to the- Well,

right, but that, that, I feel like that just goes without saying.

If you don’t have genuine faith, then, like, you’re not gonna end up in the right place in, in religions that, that have that whole thing.

Yeah.

Right?

Well, back to how do you know if you, if you messed up, if Islam is right? How do you know? ‘Cause we had a video on, one of our weekend videos for, like, paid subscribers, we offer on Patreon and Substack weekend videos, and one of the, the ones we did this weekend was I did a similar breakdown but on Mormonism.

Hmm.

And I thought I knew what happened after you die when you’re a Mormon.

That was mind-blowing.

And I had no idea.

No, man. What if they- I get now for real why Mormons Always wear their temple garments. Why some Mormons even used to shower in their temple garments, ‘cause if you know what I know now-

Yeah, I know, yeah, I know why they don’t masturbate too.

Yeah.

So the fun fact on Mormons, the most shocking one for me, it’s not like the, the planet thing or, you know, the i- eternal progression. Everybody knows about that. Everybody knows about that. What I didn’t know is Mormon think that, like, everyone who’s ever lived is, like, a ghost just walking around living life.

They have emotions, they interact with each other, they have conversations, and they’re, they are on Earth here with us until Judgment Day. And so right now there’s just, like, ghosts everywhere in this room. Everywhere. This house is, like, 200 whatever years old. Yeah,

they’re, they are all around us right now.

They’re watching us- Especially in my room, ‘cause mine’s the dying room. It’s, it’s

a nice

one ...

yeah, you, you masturbate and there is- They’re

watching ...

a room full of, like, Victorian old women- ... looking at you like, “Ugh.”

Commenting on your form.

Yeah, just like, I cannot believe- “That young man’s

building a death grip.

He needs to ease up.”

What is he watching?

That,

that

gives me so much more than God watching me. “His, his sexual

tastes are atrocious.” Yeah. Like, God watches you, whatever, right? Right, right. But the idea of a bunch of ghosts watching

him- Like, God has seen everything, you know? He’s less judgmental at this point.

It’s, you know, tens of thousands of years of humanity. But, like, you know, a Victorian woman, the colonial woman m- and men who died in this room, I... No, I’m not ready for that. That’s the thing.

The I’d, I think as a, a Mor- I’d never have sex if I was a Mormon. I don’t want, like,

a bunch of people- I know, how do they have all these kids if it’s not through IVF?

I mean, I get IVF. That, that part’s easy.

Well, we’ve talked about higher rates of, like, cucking and, like, vore-ism behavior in Mormonism. Maybe this could evolve. And the ghosts are

watching them do

this. Because they had to learn to be okay or even get off- Oh ... to a room full of ghosts.

Oh, yeah. They’re like, “Look, I’m gonna have to do it as a ghost.

Let’s just start practicing.” Right. “I don’t wanna have to deal with this in the afterlife.” Oh my God. But still, actually, in the end I think that the Mormon afterlife is super wholesome and sweet and nice, and I really- Yeah,

no, it’s, it’s actually pretty

dope ... it’s my favorite afterlife, honestly- Yeah, but, but, but-

of all the afterlifes ... I

was like, I

go to hell. Islamic afterlife? This sounds like a horrible afterlife. I,

and let’s say- I, I, do you know what, do you know what the Mormons do when they’re gho- No. I, I go to someone, I go- Yeah ... what Mormons think they immediately start doing when they become a ghost? Of course, they start trying to convert other ghosts.

Darn tootin’ they are.

And you’re, you’re totally out, off the hook if you get converted after you become a ghost.

I know.

Like, there is no reason

to be like, “No.” I know, I know, I know, I know, I know. Yeah, it’s great. Yeah, no. But- We’re just gonna... We’ll convert

his ghost. So yeah, if, if, if a, if a, If you die and you’re immediately a ghost, you’re like, “The Mormons were right.”

Yeah,

and then you just convert. It’s great.

Just convert ...

if, if you die...

okay.

More north, more north, more north. Oh, yeah, so but if you die and there’s a Black guy staring at you, you know you’re in Muslim world. Because- A Black

guy?

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm, because when you die as a Muslim-

Uh-huh ...

one of two options. A, a white angel can come to you or a Black angel can come to you.

Are you s- You no wait, hold on though. What about all of the, the Black Muslims, especially in the United States?

Oh, no,

like- What do they think about this?

Muhammad kept, like, Black slaves. Like, they- I know, but, like,

the, all of the people who were originally, like, Nation of Islam, but then they’re like, “Oh, now we’re just actual Islam,” look, I mean, if you go just to-

Sorry, we did an episode on this recently, but the Islamic slave trade was significantly larger than the American slave trade and lasted significantly longer than the American slave trade.

Like, they’re, they’re not even close, right? Like-

No, but help me understand this, ‘cause, like, if you just go to Philadelphia, right? Like, right by our house, you will walk around in the streets, there are ton... The only people that I see wearing hijab- hijabs in Philadelphia are Black. Like, they’re not-

I mean, Muhammad didn’t like your people very much.

Well, then so how do they reconcile this whole, like, well, if you die and you’re going to the, the not good place-

Well, they say, “Oh, it means...” B- you know,

there’s some sanctimonious about race- Does everyone become white and delightsome in, in in heaven or something? ... when it, like, when

they’re, when they’re talking to you, but when it’s like in, in Islam they’re like, “Oh, well, that’s just is symbolic of evil, Blackness.”

Oh. “It’s symbolic of evil, and whiteness is symbolic of good,” and that’s what they’re trying to say. It, it doesn’t come off to me that way, but anyway. And, you know, Muhammad did, again, we know he explicitly had African slaves. We know they engaged in slavery in that region. We know that they were significantly worse to their slaves than the Americans were because they predominantly used them for sex slavery.

And so they would castrate the males which had a very high rate of just killing them, and then the females were really horrible, really horrible. We did another episode where we talk about that. I’m not talking about that now. We’re talking about right now Muslim afterlife. So you die. An angel comes to you.

The angel takes you out of your body, and you go up to heaven, and it’s, like, painful to be taken out of your body if you’re not Muslim, and it’s, like, not painful if you are Muslim. Okay, so you go up to heaven. You then have judgment passed on you, okay? Then you’re sent back to your body- All right? And you then just wait in your grave until Judgment Day.

Now-

Wait

So this

is- What, how, how are dead Islamic bodies prepared, and what if you get cremated?

Muslims are super against cremation. Hmm. For this reason. So-

Yeah, well, okay, well, what if you die en route on a battlefield? What if you die i- incredibly devout but penniless, and the state finds your body and cremates you?

I’m sure they have some, “And God makes it better somehow, but you shouldn’t do it.”

Okay.

But anyway, so you, Muslims believe that all of their dead ancestors- Mm ... every dead Muslim, including Muhammad, except for one class that we’ll get to in a second, is right now still in their grave, okay? But they have a view of the heaven they’re eventually gonna inherit.

Wait, are they on pause? Is this like a stasis cryo kind of thing, or are they just

sit- It says they sleep- ...

middling about ...

like a, a, a bride on her bride’s night. So they, they say it’s a pleasant feeling, but for me, this doesn’t feel pleasant. It feels like being endlessly, like, what’s that word that people...

Like, edged in sex or something like that? Like, “Heaven’s coming, heaven’s coming, heaven’s coming.” Wait,

aren’t, like, Islamic women virgins when they,

Enter heaven, yes ...

marry?

We’ll get to that

again. No, no, no, no, when they marry. I’m just, like, thinking, like, a, a bride night would probably be very, like, stressful for-

True

a woman.

But then it, it’s what the Muslim men thought the bride night was like, Simone.

Oh, great.

Okay- Okay ... ‘cause they’re the ones writing all this. Hmm. So they’re looking at paradise right now. They’re all in their- Got it. Okay ... graves looking at paradise- Hmm ... waiting for the door to open. Now, they- Hmm

they have a door. They just can’t open it. It’s, Okay. Okay ... sometimes a window, sometimes a door, whatever. Anyway, the one group that gets into heaven immediately are prepubescent children. So they get directly into heaven, and they’re all- Early

entrance to Disneyland. Got it.

Yeah, they’re all cared for by, I wanna say Abraham.

And it’s com-

Abraham wasn’t that good of a dad. I’m very concerned about this.

That’s actually a good point.

Yeah, man. Anyway. Who’s, who is putting him in charge? Oh.

Anyway, so, all of the kids in heaven right now, and they stay young u- until the trumpet blows. And when the trumpet br- blows, they immediately turn 30, and everybody when they get to heaven turns 30 as well.

Wait, so hold on. Like- A woman, her, her kid dies, and she’s like, “Oh,” like, “I’ll be able to embrace my child in heaven.” But then she gets to heaven and, and he’s like 30, and she missed- But

she can have another one in heaven, and make him look however she wants and- But that’s not the point ... make him age however she wants.

Oh. But of course it’s okay, ‘cause she’ll be brainwashed to love it all. But what’s the point? Yeah. If you’re brainwashed to love it all, why even go through all the... Like, why give the, why give away the real dolls, and the hookers, and why, why all this when,

like- Yeah, why can’t the men just be brainwashed to

love

their wives?

Why

don’t you just, like, why don’t you just be in your grave, and, like, Muhammad’s like, “Ah, but you’ll be incredibly happy.” Like, you didn’t have to do all this other stuff. It’s just like, “Look, you’ll get to heaven, and it’s darkness and nothing, and you’ll just be super happy.” Like, did we need the details?

Did we need the debauchery, the sex? No,

but I, I think you make a really strong point here, right? Like, if you’re gonna say, if, if you’ll be brainwashed to like it, or recreated in a way that you like it, is the way the Muslims like to say it, they don’t wanna say brainwashed. Sure,

okay.

Recreated in a way where your brain enjoys all this.

Recreated, that just sounds like a copy of you that’s not you.

Right.

That’s worse than brainwashed. Recreated- And why be

brainwashed

and recreated ... in

a way where you like all of this.

Okay.

The question then becomes, and I think Simone lays it out, why can’t the men just be programmed to be perfectly satisfied with their existing wife or wives?

Yeah, maybe, maybe you can just be recreated to not be a sex pest, or incr- have a high sex drive. You could just... I don’t, I don’t know, man. Okay. But carry on.

No, it, this, this really understanding this, understanding what’s at the end. Oh, the other thing you should know about Muslim hell and note here within all of this, I’m talking-

Wait, wait, wait, right, right, right.

Sorry, sorry. I, I totally steamrolled you on Muslim hell. So a Black person addresses me, and what’s happening next?

Well, so the point I was making is you this isn’t talking about techno-puritan Muslims. If you are Islamic and you follow a version that is a Muslim version of techno-puritanism you wouldn’t believe any of this nonsense.

You would go back and try to find something in the text that actually makes sense, and you can make a lot of it. Like when I was trying to apply like a techno-puritan reading, basically what I learned about Islam is you have to be a Koranist to apply te- y- the, the Hadith just are completely incompatible with techno-puritanism.

Throw ‘em out. Okay.

But this is, this is the same with the Jews. You could say, “Oh, you’re applying something similar to Muslims.” No, with the Jews, I say you’ve gotta throw out Kabbalism. Like that’s, that’s- Oh, obviously.

Yeah ...

that’s a later edition, which puts you in a very small minority camps. The people who throw out the Hadith, it’s a small number of Muslims.

But,

Yeah, but look, the Star Wars franchise, although that’s not a great example to use, but they don’t like incorporate fan fiction. The Harry Potter universe isn’t like fan fiction is canon, and that’s what Kabbalah is. That’s what the Hadiths are. They’re not

But that’s the way almost every school of Muslim takes Hadith seriously.

Like for example- And they’re wrong ... the, the, the additional wives things, you don’t g- if you throw out the Hadiths-

Uh-huh ...

you, you can read around that.

Oh, okay. Okay ...

but the Hadiths ad- add a lot of that stuff more explicitly, okay?

Oh, okay.

Now I note here it’s easy to be like, “Well, that’s unfair to Jews and Muslims. You’re saying what Jews can’t believe in the Kabbalah and Muslims can’t believe in Hadith? How come Christians still get to believe everything?” It’s like, well, no, actually not. In techno-puritanism, anything that happened at the Council of Nicene, any of that later stuff that was added to Christianity like the Trinity that’s not actually in the Bible or wasn’t something that early Christians believed, we throw that stuff out as well.

, And for most Christians, throwing out the Trinity is a much bigger deal than throwing out something like the Hadith or throwing out something like Kabbalism

But anyway, so I, I wanted to point out here, I’m not, I’m not talking about necessarily...

well, one thing is, is the Quran is way more explicit about hell and, and, and the Hadiths are more explicit about hell than-

Okay ...

Jew- Judaism or Christianity is.

Okay. Okay.

They get really inventive with the tortures in hell and stuff like that. They go it’s like- More than Dante’s Inferno? Yes, like Dante’s Inferno is like built into the, the religion in a way- Wow

that it’s just not w- like, if you put out with techno-puritanism, I can, I can read like every line about hell, and I can be like, “I think it’s just talking about erasing people,” right? Like that’s-

Yeah. Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah ...

what fire being is an analogy for erasure. Delete. Yeah. You’re, you’re removed from the book of life.

Mm-hmm. That means you’re not one of the people who’s gonna be raised again in the future.

Yeah.

That simple, right? And people are wondering if you haven’t seen that tract, how I get around the one where Jesus takes the guy to Hades. I’m like, “Well, it says it take, he takes him to Hades, so it’s clearly a parable.”

Because like we don’t believe in Hades, right? Yeah. Like it, it, it would say Sheol if it meant like the real Jewish hell, right? But it didn’t. It said Hades. So it’s, it’s a parable, and there’s a reason why he had to do the parable that way.

Do you call it Hades for the same reason you call it Nike?

What,

it was Hades

Oh, it’s... Whatever. The, the the reason he had to do it that way is the parable doesn’t work if he’s in the real afterlife or erased or in hell- For sure ... where, like, you can’t interact with somebody, because he needed to have regret, so he had to use an afterlife that people would understand had a still a sense of sentience within it.

Mm-hmm ... but anyway, don’t wanna get into weird techno puritan stuff here. Gonna keep going with the Muslim stuff. But what I found very interesting about all this is it helped me understand why I think Islam often has worse outcomes than other religions in terms of the rates we see things like terrorism or SA.

You see this in r- like in Egypt, one survey showed 99% of women had experienced it. Like really high rates within a lot of these countries within a lot of these communities. And I think one of the reasons is one thing you gotta know is with, as a Muslim, you generally still get into paradise, even if you do fairly egregious sins, so long as you’re a true believing Muslim.

You just get punished for a period first.

Mm.

So to be clear, because I got to double check this, you can grape a child, you can torture somebody, you can murder anything, you still get into heaven if you’re Muslim. And if you’re like, well, that sounds really unjust, how could anyone believe that? Keep in mind. Traditional Christians essentially believe the same thing.

Just believe in Christ and answer forgiveness and you get in no matter what you did.

So very similar to how I’ve heard some Catholic retellings where, look, as long as you repent by the time you you die, you’re kinda good. You’re, you’re solid.

Yeah. Well, yeah, except you, you do face more punishment. I think, but you can get around- You gotta

go through purgatory-

most of

that ... in theory, right? But-

Yeah, yeah, you can get around most of that by just repenting in most forms of Christianity. Yeah. Not techno puritanism, by the way. No, no,

no.

No, no, no, no. That repent on your- No ... deathbed thing doesn’t work.

Not

happening. Well, I mean, it does kind of if it is a true repentance because, you know, we think the point of the things that happen to you after you die, let’s say the, the stimulated worlds, is to test your soul to see if you are worthy of being like the angels, which it says some souls become in heaven.

And this then means you’re re-entering a consequential interaction with reality again. So, like, if your soul had actually improved itself that amount to the end then you’d be closer to that particular end state, right? Like-

Hmm ...

and the technology would be able to determine this. But you, you can’t just be like, “Oh, I rep- I, I...”

You know, like there’s the one- Sorry ... famous serial killer who did that, right?

Well, and it m- matters, what matters is what you’ve done, not what you say. I, I think that’s the bigger thing.

Well, you, you could say what you say, but a lot of people are like, “No, you’re saved through, through Christ alone and faith alone.”

Yeah. “And that gets through everything.” And I don’t, I don’t think that sounds moral to me at all.

No.

It’s not, it’s not a religion I wanna be a part of. I... Oh, the God’s endless grace or whatever, and it’s like, well, if somebody, like, tortured a kid or something like that, I kinda think-

No grace ...

there should be ramifications for that, right?

Like-

Well, the Old Testament’s clear. Like, even if you, like, make a, a widow or a fatherless child cry out to God, like- y- y- you’re deleted, essentially. Like you shall, you shall burn in fire. And your entire family basically will be ended. It’s- Mm ... it’s very clear. Like, don’t do that. Y- you’re gonna get in big trouble.

Y- you can’t just be like, “I’m sorry.” It, it doesn’t say, “And then by the way-” “... if you say I’m sorry, it’s totally fine.”

This is traditional, traditional Christians believe that’s the one thing you’re pissing off a lot of

them. Are you- And I haven’t gotten to the New Testament. I get that, guys. But also, okay, I’ll get there.

A lot of Christians,

this is the traditional view in Christianity.

And they’re welcome to feel that. And, and

again, we’re, we’re- Look, we have different views ... we’re joking about it because if we’re gonna joke about Islam and we’re gonna joke about what traditional Muslims think, we’re gonna joke about where we think that this sounds silly to us.

Of

course.

And, and where it seems like it’s... But I, that, that to me is not as egregious as just like how Dover Muslim women get. Oh. You know, like the, just-

Don’t worry, they’ll be happy about it. You’ll like it.

You’ll like it. But no, what’s fascinating to me is if you have this view of the afterlife, like I think the negative ramifications, what it means is, one, you can still sort of get away with what you wanna get away with.

And two in, in, in addition to that you... And gosh, I didn’t know about some of this stuff. Like some of our fans have sent us stuff, like there’s a line where, I don’t remember if this is the Quran or the Hadiths where they’re asking about when we’re graping polithiest whose villages we’re wiping out, do we pull out?

And it’s like, no, of course, don’t pull out. You know, this is the, like, it when you’re doing war crimes. It’s like if God’s the one who controls whether they get pregnant or not, ...

So for full context on this one, this is from one of the hadiths, and, , they had captured women from a polytheist tribe, and the men wanted to grape their women, but then they would be able to sell them back less as slaves, , sell them back , as hostages if they ended up getting pregnant. , And so they asked Muhammad for, we do coitus interruptive?

Do we not grape them?” And he’s like, “No, no, no, of course grape them,” like obviously, right? But, , you know, also don’t do coitus interruptive because you don’t need to worry about that because Muhammad takes care of all that

And just to be clear for people who are like, “Well, that’s just what you did back then,” , both Christian and Jewish law prevented acts like this centuries before this. This isn’t just what you did back then. This was unique to Muhammad and his people

And if you’re like, “What’s the techno-puritan perspective on this?” Because obviously sometimes you still need to go to war. Well, if you go to war and population needs to be

that population, but as painlessly as possible, as quickly as possible. And if you have people who are temporarily captives, you sell them back or you eliminate them.

You do not treat them as grape slaves ever

And if you are selling them back, I would say unless there is, is something that makes this an extremely unfavorable thing to do in specific conditions, they should be sterilized before they’re given back. Your goal is to lower the population of those groups that want you eradicated

Or to put it in other words, to lower future bloodshed, future suffering where it’s possible.

Not, not awesome. Well, not awes- Not awesome ... not awesome. But there’s a lot of stuff where I’m just like this is, this is quite, I don’t know. Like, I’m, I’m gonna be honest, even, even to our fans who are Muslims, I would seriously like, I, I do think that there might be a way for a portion of Islam to like work well, but like I would seriously think about whether that’s something you wanna continue to follow. More so with other religions where I’m just like, no, you can, you can find a way to, you know, stay Jewish or whatever.

This is, I don’t know, like that, some of that stuff is just like that’s, that’s gruesome, man. That’s really gruesome. But to continue here, Because we, yeah, even our fans were like, “No, it’s...” I won’t get into this argument again, ‘cause we’ve, we’ve litigated it numerous times whether or not a Muslim can legally within Sharia law grape a non-Muslim.

We say no. A lot of people say yes. I’m not gonna argue

about it anymore. I think that, yeah, where, where it comes down to is, is we seem to disagree- I haven’t been convinced

by the

arguments

people

have given us ... on yeah, they think that, like Anyone’s just allowed to basically act as though they’re at war, even if, say, they’re an asylum sp- seeker who has come on their knees saying, “Oh, help me,” to their host country, that somehow that means that they’re also at war with their host country?

No, absolutely not. Look, Muhammad, yes, he, he did a lot of really crappy things t- but he was also very clear, like, “I’m gonna come and get ya.” Like, he was always kind of at war. These people are not. They’re not at war. I- if you’re not at war, then you can’t do the war things.

Well, they would say that he did things in his battle tactics to try to trick his enemies and ended up being able to kill them, like raiding early in the morning, and I’m like, it’s not the same thing, right?

No, no. Like, a- and I’m saying all this ‘cause I wanna point out that, like, we don’t always just go, like take the maximally anti-Islamic approach to something, right? You know. I think that there are places where you have to give them their dues. Mm-hmm. And, and that is one of them. But what I mean is if what is at the end of the day in store for you is as many additional wives as you could...

You know, based on how moral you are, you don’t have the same motivation to treat your earthly wife very well. Because once you

get

to-

She’s just gonna be hotter and, like, cool with you no matter how you treat her anyway. Yeah. So.

You can basically be- ‘Cause they’re hotter, right?

Oh, yeah, yeah, they’re, they’re hotter in

heaven.

Oh, by the way, did you know that you’re not allowed to have threesomes with your earthly wives in, in Islam?

Oh, wait, so if they’re both married to you, like you, you can have max four wives. You cannot have a, that would, ha- a f- a fivesome.

Yeah. Well, you can have max four wives and infinite sex slaves.

Right, right, right.

Well, can you have, can you... So but you can’t have sex concurrently with up to four wives in your life life, your earth life.

Yeah, you can’t- Can you- E- even on earth, you can’t have three ways. No Muslim three ways. Because-

Oh, but also there are no three ways in heaven. So there’s infinite Viagra, no, no three ways.

One-on-one.

Yeah, yeah.

Like, I guess you have infinite time, so who cares?

Even, even if the women are into it, which I thought was interesting. I didn’t know that. I thought, like, the women were probably allowed to sleep with each other at least if they’re your wives, but, like, no.

Oh, wait, they can’t sleep with each other.

No. No,

no. No, no lesbians in -

No lesbians ...

no lesbians in Islamic heaven.

But there’s really cute boy slaves.

Lots of those around.

Yeah, no homo. But they’re so cute.

Well, the,

a lot of Islamic countries- They’re the only children who don’t immediately grow up ...

we

have this other episode on this- Which

is interesting

but a lot of Islamic countries like Afghanistan have problems with lots of gay sex, but it’s not, like, same age gay sex. It’s, like, huge age gap a- gay sex.

Mm.

Which was a huge problem for the troops, and so, like- This has been around in Islamic culture for a long time. We see at like during the Muslim, the height of these Muslim empires, if you go to you know, their, see our episode on like how I- Islam went from like the maximally debauched religion to like a religion that was very, very strict in a fairly short time window where it used to be, you know, all these giant harems and belly dancing and you know, people drinking all the time. There’s the one court where the mom made all of the girls dress up like boys to try to seduce her son, you know?

And then it became popular for a while for all the girls to dress like boys because they were trying to seduce a gay prince.

The era of the tomboy.

The era of the tomboy.

Yeah. We’re for it, you know? Look, it- But the

point being is if you think that that’s what all this is for- Mm-hmm ... and you know that like your wife won’t be able to ever be like, “Hey, you were a dick to me and now we’re together for all eternity,” you don’t have to worry about any of that.

The other thing is that you don’t need to worry about the long term of human civilization. You don’t need to worry about what hap- like nuking the entire planet, that’s totally fine. In fact, that might even cause judgment day, right? You don’t need to worry about like the, the Russians love their children too song.

You know, like the, no, they’re actually okay with that, ‘cause all the kids get immediately perfect heaven, right? And because what you’re fighting for is ultimately hedonism, you’re not really worried in sort of like a higher moral calling either, right? Like in, in being efficacious with your life or anything

like that.

Yeah. Yeah, yeah. ‘Cause the whole point is max hedonism. Yeah. So you’re never gonna try to rise above it. It’s your motivating factor.

And this is, and I think in terms of heavens, if I was gonna rank like afterlifes in terms of creating good moral action, I think the lowest you could have is Buddhism, okay?

That’s just like-

Nothingness ...

anti-materialist. That’s, that’s negative utilitarianism as a religion, okay?

Yeah. The heat death of the universe, that’s, that’s a good, good end state.

Yeah. G- destroy reality is a good end state. Yeah.

Yes.

I don- I don’t think that that motivates particularly moral behav- well, okay, it motivates more moral behavior than pure hedonism.

Let’s say that, okay? We’ll put, we’ll put Islam, traditional Islam, note there’s different interpretations, we’re just talking about the traditional one- Mm-hmm ... the very lowest in terms of motivating moral behavior because it motivates you to devalue women, devalue your wife, devalue your relationship, devalue the long-term future of humanity-

And n- not a ton of reason to act particularly morally, especially to non-Muslims.

Yeah, actually it make the, it makes so much, like a lot of the human rights issues that you see take place in many predominantly Muslim countries have a lot more context now- Yeah ... ‘cause it doesn’t appear to really matter.

Like even within your own family, it’s like look- What they, what they do right now doesn’t matter at all, and what I do to them doesn’t matter. You know? Like, they’re just, they’re gonna be better when they’re dead honestly.

Yeah.

Which is, that’s gonna change people’s b- it’s a very, it’s a very sick view. I, I, I, mm.

We used to come out as being so neutral. Yeah. We were so nice. We’re like, “Oh, all religions

are kind of right.” But then the, the next bad, and I think traditional Christian heaven is not a very good moral framing.

What are we talking here? Not Mormon heaven, but like-

No, traditional Christian heaven-

traditional Christian heaven ... is you go to heaven. You’re unmarried. Your, your family relationships essentially dissolve. You are sort of basking in God’s grace forever.

Hm.

Y- y- you’re, you’re not typically, This is, this is the heaven that I grew up being taught. I’m not saying... ‘Cause there’s different ways of interpreting the heaven in the Bible.

I’m talking about the heaven that I grew up believing that Christians believed in. It’s a heaven where you’re the... Just feeling a form of hedonism that’s higher than having sex all day.

Well, right, because you’re fangirling over God for all eternity.

Yeah. I, th- th- this I don’t like for a number of reasons.

I, I think it leads to less moral behavior because you don’t care about the long-term consequences to the human condition. Hm. Eventually humanity’s gonna be wiped out, so humans anyway. And it doesn’t mean that, you know, you’re gonna have to take responsibility for the way that you treated your wife if you guys have a bad relationship, if you have a bad relationship with your kids.

And it’s a heaven where because it’s a form of hedonism maxim, just a higher form of hedonism maxim, there’s no... You, you don’t do anything consequential. Like, to me this is sort of like if somebody said, “If I could take you right now and I could put you in a, your brain in a vat and I could connect you with all of the right emotional chemicals to make your brain feel absolutely perfect,” right?

You know, like the highest you could ever feel. Would you prefer that feeling or being in the world where you can efficaciously interact with things? Yeah. I would always say I’d rather be in the world, right? Even if it meant suffering, even if it meant pain, even if it meant a life from today until the day I die of suffering, I- judge quality of a life.

I’d like, and a lot of people I think feel this way intrinsically. When we talk about are we potentially in a matrix? Are we potentially in a simulation? You know, simulation theory. Well, if in the future they can make thousands of simulations, hundreds of thousands, billions of simulations that are just lifelike, you’re more likely to be in a simulation than in reality.

And, and humorously, we think they do end up doing that, and that is part of what heaven is. But th- those simulations are a thing you can eventually get out of and live efficaciously again. Which is something I didn’t... I went to Simone because at first I thought, oh, it’s just simulations, and I was like, but I don’t really...

And she’s like, “Malcolm, go read the Bible. Say if the Bible says anything that makes it seem like that’s not true.” And so then I go and it says, oh, you’re gonna be like angels. You’re gonna have jobs. You have to serve in heaven. You, you have to reign in heaven. You might be managing something like v- variably managing cities based on how competent you are.

Huh? That sounds a lot like actually interacting with the world again. And so this isn’t just in techno- Mormon heaven also may have a feature like this as well, where again, you are undertaking an actual project which is trying to help other peoples im- improve themselves, like a new generation of humanity or something like that.

And, and I like I, I, I would feel like heaven wasn’t a particularly big reward if it was just max good feelings. And note here, I’m not saying that the brain in the jar can simulate whatever it feels like to bask in God’s grace. I’m just saying that at the end of the day, that still is an emotional state.

And it’s an emotional state where you’re separated from the things you did in life, like your, your family and everything like that, which to me would be hell. Like, the idea of being... And people that say, “Well, you’re remade to not care about Simone anymore.” And it’s like, I don’t wanna be remade to not care about Simone anymore.

Right.

I wanna be with Simone forever, okay? I don’t, I don’t wa- I don’t wanna... If, if they remake us in the future, I want to be made in a, a pair of AIs running a ship together, not, you know-

Yeah. Although this is, like, where, you know, Buddhism comes in and they’re like, “No, that’s your problem. You love people.”

No, you

love people, right? “It’ll be a

mistake. How dare you?” I, I,

I, and note here, I will be clear, the Bible very clearly does say that you will not be husband and wife anymore, which we won’t be because we won’t... You won’t even... I mean, you will be remade to the extent that, like, you and I wouldn’t even want to have sex if we’re AIs managing a ship, but we would want to make the world a better place, right?

Like, continue humanity’s expansion. So yeah.

Yeah.

That was wild. Wait.

So how explicit were they about hell, and is there a place for lusty people in hell? Like, are the sins similar or super different?

I

know you didn’t go really far into hell ‘cause this was all about heaven, but what, what were your big takeaways from hell?

Okay, yeah, let’s, let’s go into this. So burning and renewing of skin. Every time your skin is burned through, it is replaced with new skin so the person continues to feel pain. That’s from the Quran directly. Okay. Boiling water and fluids. Boiling water is poured over their heads, melting their insides and skins.

They drink boiling water, pus, or melted brass. Food of Zaqqum. They eat from the tree of Zaqqum, whose fruits are like the heads of devils. It fills the belly but scalds the inside like boiling oil.

Oh, great.

Clothing and restraints. They wear garments of fire or pitch. They are bound in heavy chains and dragged with iron hooks.

Heat and physical agony. The fire s- seizes people to different degrees, ankles, knees, waist, or neck, depending on their sins. Even the lightest punish-

It’s a very temperature sensitive environment. This is for people who are-

Yeah, even the lightest punishment in hell is described as two burning coals under the feet that make the brain boil.

No escape by death, and you undergo this forever. And this is, like, again, a good God doesn’t do this for... That’s not a, that’s not a just... I’m sorry, it’s just not a just punishment. It’s not.

No, and that, that’s why I like the techno-puritan inter- interpretation of just deletion in the end, ‘cause it even really Agrees well with all the evidence we have around crime, punishment, and incarceration, where when people have done systematic reviews of the research, different experiments with crime and punishment, they found that, like, the, the severity of the punishment doesn’t really affect crime, doesn’t make communities safer.

Like, if you punished stealing by cutting off a hand or by, you know, capital punishment, it’s not gonna make society safer. The only thing that makes society a better place is removing the bad actors. The reason why prison is effective and helpful isn’t because it’s, like, reforming people. It’s that they’re not in society when they’re in prison, which is why I’m so big on penal colonies.

Just, like, get them out. But yeah, I mean, like, i- in the end you, you can’t make it right by hurting someone.

Yeah.

You just can’t. It’s it’s very frustrating. And so I like- Yeah ... this idea of hell is, hell is deletion. The punishment is just you’re gone,

Well, I mean, I think- ... and that’s fine ... that that’s what it, and people can see our other tract where we go over why we believe that, and we go over every single verse that talks about hell. But it seems to align with, like, even the idea of Gehenna where, like, you burn stuff, right? Like, the, the only way an ancient person would have understood total erasure is burning, right?

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

And it, it talks about being struck from the book of life, which would be a book of the people that are going to be brought back in the future. And the way that we know that not all bad people are destroyed, written from the book of life or e- erased, the s- the synonyms for the same thing, is because in Daniel it says that some of the people who are raised again are ashamed about being raised again, and will live with that shame forever, will be shamed.

Which basically says they never leave the simulation. They never reach the state that heaven is meant to get them at, but they’re also not permanently erased. Mm-hmm. But I, but I also think that, like, the morality of a book the idea of punishing a person forever, terribly punishing them in, like, a lake of fire instead of just saying that means erasure for fairly mild sins, frankly would, would qualify you for this in a, in a m- many traditional understandings, I think is just evil.

Like, especially when he’s out there putting bones in the ground to make it look like there’s dinosaurs and stuff. If you get that wrong- ... like, well, why’d you do it? Why did you make it look like a star- ... exploded a billion years ago? You didn’t have to do that.

You really didn’t, yeah.

You made up that light on the way to f- with us.

You know, so that- that’s why I take this interpretation where I’m like, “No, no, no, I don’t think he’s actually a jerk.” But, like, the level of jerkiness of the God- That’s being described in a traditional understanding of the Quran as just, like, very high. Because you can’t get around it as easily as you can with a techno-puritan framing of just saying, “Oh, it’s, it’s, it’s talking about deletion.”

Mm-hmm.

Which, which predominantly takes, you know, the, the, the Christian sect.

Which is- Yeah, but it... You know, your, your description of hell puts heaven to a lot more context. ‘Cause at first I’m like, look, why on earth then would a Muslim woman sign up for this at all? Like, why? And I guess it might be because she doesn’t want her skin burned off every single day from the inside and the outside

in this case.

Oh, yeah. And obviously big punishments for anyone who leaves Islam as well. Ugh. So they’re really taught, “Oh, you better not leave.” Right ... and then your family will hunt you down and torture you to death anyway- That’s great ... if you try to leave.

Mm-hmm.

Even if you, you know, make it to a Western country or something, which has happened before, right?

Like, the, the, It’s a very different culture. And I, I think, I wish the, the, the Westerners who are like, “Oh, you know, do I... No.” But I do think that the, the, the one thing I take away from this is one, you know, I’m, I’m willing to be critical of traditional understandings of Christianity as well. And I, I do think that a heaven where you, for many people, where your, your actions no longer at all matter on earth.

Now, if you got to be, like, a guardian angel after you die, that’d be chill. Like, maybe that’s... You could say, take a totally traditional Christian view and just saying, well, it says you can be like the angels, so it s- means that some humans come back and help guide other humans. That’s great. I would be totally okay with that.

But yeah, you know, like in All Dogs Go to Heaven. But if it’s just, like, totally your actions affect nothing after that, that’s like, the, the endgame. I don’t know. I don’t, I don’t, I don’t think I like that a lot. I am overly tied to being productive, and you can say, “Oh, that’s a love of earthly things,” whatever.

I think that that’s the highest form of, of being, right? And when you remove that from somebody, you’ve removed humanity. But what are your thoughts more broadly on all of this?

I had no idea

I had no idea either. I had no idea about the Mormon ghost thing. So go check out our episode on that, our weekend episode.

We really love, you know, Mormon-paid people. Or I had no idea about the... I, I... In the future, whenever I hear, like, a Muslim wo- I’m always gonna ask them, “Do you think your husband’s gonna get additional wives? Do you think if you die unmarried, you’re gonna be married to

a random man?” We’ve gotta ask. I wanna...

Yeah, I really wanna know if people know. I mean, I think the answer almost 80% of, of the case has... Time, I would say, has to be no, because the... Something trending on Twitter earlier this, this week was some article talking about the average voter and just how uninformed they are, and this one, a journalist I think from The Atlantic, went to some part of New York where a, an unusual number of conservatives voted for Mamdani, and I guess they wanted to understand why because Mamdani is an open member of the Democratic Socialist of America.

Yeah. He’s very progressive, et cetera. And these people thought like, he, she this, this journal- I, I don’t know who they were. But this journalist interviewed a couple that was either centrist or conservative. Like, they... Or they were Republicans registered, but they had voted for Mamdani because they thought that he was more centrist than Andrew Cuomo and because they thought he was an Italian from Astoria because his name ended with an I, like Mamdani.

He’s Italian. And so they voted for him. And they were a little off. And it’s funny because no one was hiding what Mamdani was all about, right? Like, these people just chose to believe that he was some Italian guy- Some Italian guy ... from Astoria, and I, so I wouldn’t be surprised at all if most of the people who are, who are-

I’m just constantly thinking of that woman on Caleb Hammer who was like, “Islam is the most feminist religion,”

Islam is probably the most feminist religion there is for women and non Yes, it is certainly Middle Eastern countries that are most known for their feminism and freedom for women. But it is. I don’t have a problem with Islam as a whole, but when you come here and you say it is the best or most feminist religion for women, you would be beat in Iran if you took the scarf off.

As of Quran 2:282, a woman’s testimony in financial matters is actually worth half of that of a man’s, ‘cause, uh, we’re, we’re doing the Sharia version, so we have to follow the rules because- Hmm ... it’s the most feminist. And w- you had a son, right? Yes. Okay. Very good. Are you guys gonna have any daughters?

Hopefully. Well, they can only get half the inheritance actually, legally. Hmm. Sons, they get 100%. Women, uh, they actually can only get half.

and I just wish Caleb had been like, “Has your husband, ‘cause you converted for him, has he told you yet he’s gonna get an additional wife when you die?

Like, when you guys die-” Maybe

the most feminist thing is just not caring anymore, you know? Yeah. It’s the ultimate feminist freedom. You know? It’s end the patriarchy.

Oh, good. I really wanna watch the husband ‘cause you could see he’s just eating a s**t-eating grin that whole interview- ... that he’s been able to brainwash this woman.

And, Oh, my God ... I just want to him be like, “Has he told you about the