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TRANSCRIPT:
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Jake: From Yellowstone National Park. This is What We Do. I'm Jake Frank. Brett: And I'm Brett Raeburn. Jake: Hi, Brett. Brett: Hey, how’s it going? Jake: I’m great. How are you? Brett: I'm good. I had a good weekend. Jake: Yeah? That's good to hear. Hey, how are your pipes in your house doing? You like that transition? [laughter] Jason: Have you flushed your toilet today? Brett: My pipes, I think they're. I think they're good. Do you know something I don't know? Jake: No, I just wanted to, that was the best transition that I could come up with, Brett: That was terrible. I’m not going to lie. Jake: I have a trivia question, actually, I want to ask you. Brett: Okay. Jake: All right. So, Yellowstone, we’re a big park, 2.2 million acres, 4.5 million people roughly visit the park every year. We have a lot of infrastructure in the park that's hidden to support all that visitation. Part of you know, those systems are water and wastewater systems in the park. So how many combined between the, you know, making clean water and then making dirty water clean, if you combine those two systems, how many of those are in the park? Brett: Like pipes? The number of systems? Jake: No, the number of systems, the number of total systems. Yeah, you don't have to it's not like, you know, miles of pipe or anything. Brett: OK, that’s what I was trying to anticipate. Jake: Because they're located all throughout the park. So, if you were to count the total number, how many of their across the park? Brett: Fifteen? Jake: There are 23 wastewater systems and 21 water systems. So, a combined 44. Brett: So, I wasn't even close. Jake: It's a lot. It's like and, and this is like something that I had no clue about until when I started, you know, working with the facilities team to document all of our infrastructure, you know, from like the GAOA projects and putting in money to improve our infrastructure. It is unbelievable how much infrastructure there is. And it's all hidden like no one sees it, but it's by design. It's all, you know, behind the trees and whatnot. Brett: So, do we know how many feet of pipe there are in this park? I really want to know that now. Jake: I have no idea. But maybe, I guess maybe our guest today, Jason Murphy, he's the utility systems facility manager for our water and wastewater systems. Do you know that answer? Jason: The exact number to the top of my head? Brett: To the centimeter to the millimeter. Jason: So, between water and sewer, it's thousands. Jake: Yeah. Jason: There are over 500 manholes that one sticks in my head from that spec sheet. Brett: Wow. Jake: Yeah, that is crazy water. Brett: That's a lot. Jake: Well, speaking of water and wastewater and manholes, how are you today? Another great transition. Jason: It is a very great transition. I am fine. Yeah. Well, thank you for joining us today. Brett: How are your pipes? Jason: My pipes are good. Yeah, toilets are flushing. Great. Jake: That's a win. So, you know, why don't we just kind of dive in? How did you get into the Park Service? Did you start in the Park Service? Or, like, even before then, Jason: Just how did you get my first park Service job? I applied as a summer seasonal in 2001, and I was picked up as a wage grade three garbage truck operator and not the driver, but I rode the garbage truck we had ride along garbage trucks in Canyon. Then we had about 300 of those swinging bears cans and I rode the garbage truck for that summer, picking up garbage in Canyon. Jake: That seems like a fun job. Jason: It was very fun to do. Brett: Like on the outside, like you're the one hanging out? That is cool. Jake: That's like the one that all the little kids want to be when you grow up. Jason: Correct. Yeah, we've taken that away. Now we have mechanical arms that do that, but it was a very fun job. Jake: They always got to ruin all the fun stuff. Yeah, so. Jason: Can't hang on the back of a truck around town. Jake: Yeah. There's somebody probably got seriously injured and then that. Brett: Yeah. Jason: Yeah. Jake: So, how did you find that job? How did you hear about, you know, how did you even know to apply? Jason: Friends at University of Montana who came down here and work for YCR as seasonals? Jake: Okay. Jason: And they were like to apply for these jobs. Jake: And so, are you from the area? Did you go to school here? Jason: We were living in Missoula at the time. I grew up in Buffalo, New York, but we had moved out in 98 to Missoula and just met some folks that, you know, had been coming down and working seasonally for the Park Service. And the housing was a very big draw at that point that you could get a job that came with housing. Jake: Yeah, In Yellowstone. Jason: In Yellowstone. Jake: Yeah. That's pretty cool. Yeah. So, you know, between, hanging off the back of a garbage truck and your current position, there's probably a few jobs in between those two jobs? Jason: There are a few in between, yes. Jake: Yeah. What you want to walk us through that? Jason: Well, you know, my father was in the utility stuff, so I kind of grew up with some of that, at least in the collections and distribution side of things. So, I had known about it. And then in between that summer season and kind of, you know, still as a seasonal working for, you know, doing the ski school thing in the winter and then coming back. It was even back then it was recruitment and retention for water and wastewater operators was tough. The people came and came and went pretty regularly, even going all the way back into the late nineties. So, I kind of saw that there was there was a way to get in there. Then I did then do a little stint for the Department of Defense in Germany, working for the Army for a few years in early 2002 through 2004 or 2005 when we came back, and I've been here ever since then, and it was kind of that on the job training, you could get in, do some correspondence courses, grab some certifications and then get in the door that way. And that was pretty much the easiest way to get a permanent job in Yellowstone. Jake: Yeah, so we've done a handful of these interviews now and it's at the consistent thing is like I think that John Cataldo said move at the speed of opportunity is that it's just kind of being in the place and being willing to learn some new thing and then take advantage of it. Jason: Yeah. I didn't leave. [laughter] Jake: Yeah, yeah, yes. That is another way is just to plant your roots. Okay. So, in your current job, so as the utility systems facility manager, do you have a typical day and like or a time of year or like, like what does your job look like? Jason: Well, let's be honest, there hasn't been any quite typical day since June 2023. Jake: What happened then?!? Jason: There was a flood. Jake: There was a big flood, yeah. Jason: Yeah. So I've been pretty wrapped up in that project, getting the wastewater plant up and running here in Mammoth, which it's been up and running since July of, did I get the date mixed up? It was 2022. Jake: Yeah. So, for folks that don't know, we had a big flood in June of [20]22 that washed away one of our roads and in that road was a wastewater line that would take our sewage from Mammoth out to the town of Gardiner, [MT] where it was processed. And then when that line severed, we basically had to build a temporary wastewater facility in Mammoth. Jason: We resurrected a facility from the it was last used probably in the late sixties, within a matter of 48 hours after we lost the main line down to Gardiner. Brett: It's like a zombie facility. Yeah, came back from the dead. Jason: There's a lot of chainsaws and weed whackers out and things to YCC and a bunch of other folks and fire crews for getting some stuff cleaned up and we were able to utilize some existing infrastructure actually to great success for a while to keep the community of Mammoth here. And then over the course of that, that year, I got those dates mixed up. So, June 2022 to July 2023, build a biologically processing wastewater treatment facility here in Mammoth. Brett: It wasn’t on your radar either, as I was just like, by the way, Jason: Not on the radar. Brett: But this is a new thing that you have to do starting now. Jake: Yeah. And, you know, living in and living in lower Mammoth, looking down and seeing that thing go up and just the how fast, you know, there's always speed bumps in the road. But I mean, with the government building things like building a wastewater facility in like less than a year isn't a typical timeline. Jason: No, no. Jake: Yeah. So, so I'm guessing that that's been your primary thing to take care of? Jason: Yeah. Yep. Being on site. There's a few other folks like Molly or Parks civil engineer who's very critical in getting that up and running. We got great support from Denver Service Center and then the contractors and stuff that stepped up to get it all going. Jake: So, with, you know, all of the things that you're mentioning, is there like a skill set that you have that you found that has like kind of allowed you to be the most successful in your position? Jason: I feel like I'm pretty adaptable. Flexible. Kind of got to roll with the punches. And you need to be creative and use what you have around you. Like I said, those you know, there are some folks here who have been here for a while. So, when the flood happened, we reached out to a few a few people that have been here for a while and they were like, You do this and you got to have a good network of people to get all that information across and then implement. So being able to strategize quickly and then implement that, that plan and that's kind of the general thing with utilities is stuff's going to happen and you're going to need to figure it out kind of on the fly. And, you know, you don't always have those parts on the shelf or even whatever it is, if it's a water main break or something like that. You've got to really be able to react quickly but yet systematically and approach to keep everyone safe and to get the job done. Brett: Yeah, that's one it's one of those things do that's like everyone's looking at you are waiting for you to figure it out too, because they're like just holding their pee over there, waiting to use the toilet again. Jason: Yep, yep. Brett: It's a high stress. Jason: And I think the park had a great, a great team response to from the whole flood that I don't think anyone was holding it too much. Jake: I had my wag bags ready. Jason: Right. You bust out the groover, we're going, we're going on a raft trip. But no, that that's pretty much it. And then generally work with outside partners, EPA, rural water associations for both Montana and Wyoming, Wyoming DEQ. There's this position here in with Molly and the civil engineer for the park. We work a lot with Denver Service Center, and it is kind of that kind of position where you're balancing between the regulatory agencies. Wyoming is the only state in the nation that did not take primacy over drinking water. So, we get the fun of we work with EPA for Drinking Water Region eight and then Wyoming DEQ for wastewater. But in Wyoming, DEQ who also has everything to do with construction and permitting and things like that. Jake: So that's also a benefit. But the majority of our infrastructure is in Wyoming, right? Jason: Correct. Jake: Like we do have a little bit, that does bleed into Montana, but the majority of its Wyoming. So do you have a favorite part of the job? Like what? What do you wake up and enjoy doing? Jason: I like pumping sludge. Yeah, that's kind of like my favorite part of when I when I get to get out of the office or, you know, those kinds of things. Pumping sludge is very rewarding. Brett: Do you put that on like the calendar on the days that you get to do that? Today I’m pumping sludge! Jason: We’re doing that a lot more than we ever have at this new treatment facility. Brett: So, it'd be a good day. Jason: Closure of the wastewater loop. Jake: So where does the sludge go? Jason: Right now, it's going to the compost facility at the landfill in Logan. Jake: Okay. Jason: And they'll use it. They use it in the landfill. They mix it with woodchips and most of the municipal wastewater treatment facilities in the area, Livingston, Bozeman, even Three Forks and some of the other ones, they all use the compost facility too. So, they use it in as they layer things in and when they close cells and in between intermediate stuff in the cells, they put that layer of that material and mix it with woodchips and other things like that. Jake: So, if pumping sludge is your favorite part of the job, what is your least favorite part of the job? [laughter] Jason: That's a loaded question. [laughter] Jake: What are some of the challenges that you face in your job? Jason: That's a that's a better way to ask. Jake: Yeah. Jason: I think right now recruitment and retention is definitely a challenge. Finding certified operators nationwide is a challenge. I think through that, whatever happened a couple of years ago, we don't want to talk about the pandemic. Jake: Yeah. Jason: We did lose a lot of that knowledge base and some of those older operators. And we're struggling as a as a profession nationwide from coast to coast. Jake: Well, and you mentioned that even in your, you know, when you were at Canyon doing garbage, that you noticed that it was hard to recruit and retain people back then. Is that is that just like do does anybody have an idea as to why that is that just like the hazards of the profession and or is it? Jason: Yeah, I think you know, it seemed kind of clear back then that, you know, people with families being someone who has experience that staying in the interior of the park and that remote duty station is difficult. Brett: No pun intended. Jason: No pun. Yeah. D-o-o-d-I that that's just a struggle. You know, even when we had children and that was kind of my exodus from the interior after being out there for eight, nine years was, you want to be home and that makes it difficult. Brett: Can you kind of go into why like, what are some of those difficult things that. Jason: Yeah, the school. Brett: Yeah. I mean what does that look like getting your kids to school or homeschool. Jason: Yeah that, that was not an option. [Laughter] Yeah, I could see like, kindergarten. We could do blocks and, you know, music and all the fun stuff. [laughter] Yeah, no. Brett: Teach me trigonometry. Jason: My wife worked for the park for 20 years. Yeah. So, we didn't. We decided not to do that. She was here in Mammoth time, and I was able to come into Mammoth and work out of the plumbing shop for about ten years, doing some HVAC stuff and just all kind of project work and things like that before this position came up. Jake: So now that you're, you know, the in your facility manager position and you're, I'm guessing you supervise a handful of people. Jason: Yes. Jake: With all those challenges and trying to recruit and retain people, I mean, why do you, why do you stay here? What keeps you at the National Park Service? Jason: Well, I've always loved being here, so I feel like that's as far as recruitment goes, when you're looking for people who want to be here, you want wherever they are, whatever job it is. If you're in, you know, Michigan or Florida or North Carolina, I would think anybody you're recruiting for any job, you want the person to want to be where they're at, at least at that time. So, I've always wanted to be here. I was in love with the park. To be honest. I was in love with the skiing in the park for a long, long time. I still am. But you just don't have that kind of say. Brett: That's sounds past tense. Jason: Well, you know, life, healthy kids, there's adulting. [laughter] So. Yeah. And just the idea of and I always thought this might sound a little cliche, but you're you get to do some of that mission statement stuff the stewardship model take Canyon wastewater treatment plant for example. It's the only treatment plant in the park that discharges directly into the Yellowstone River. So, I always thought, even going back to 20 years ago, that you had a part of that kind of responsibility and stewardship. And plus, you're doing a little bit science. There's some science to it. And I just thought that was the best part of working in the park. And you can only, you know, I was never going to be in our REYP or anything like that. So, it was just for me, it was part of that. You could see that in the mission. Jake: Yeah. Jason: Well, relate to it. Jake: And you know, 2001 is when you said you got your first job here, is there between then and now, has there been some point in your career that you kind of identified as like a turning point or a defining moment that you're just like really stands out to you? Jason: I think there's a lot and, you know, not to talk. The flood was definitely one last year, two summers ago. Now, I think a defining moment was, you know, getting that first permanent job because that was a roller coaster and then even progressing up and moving from the interior to Mammoth up, that was a big deal in that. Jake: Yeah, because that's like the whole everything other than work. It is improved by being up here, not the logistics of with your kids. And you know, things like that. Jason: Yeah, yeah, yeah. That was when the skiing stuff. Brett: Yeah, yeah. So, I guess I'm in some ways improved and in some ways, yeah, yeah, Jake: Yeah. I do get that. And that's like, that's a cutting edge that cuts both ways. Like it's super fun to be in the interior in the winter. You have access to all this stuff. But then on the flip side of the coin, you got to get on the snowmobile and drive to the store. Jason: But I think it's important though, that we make sure that people know that the interior life in the winter is not, it's manageable. You know, if you don't make a grocery list now, you if you come and you work in the interior, you might want to start working on your grocery list. Brett: Can't forget eggs. Jason: Can't forget. Yeah. You know, there's just a little bit there's another level of logistics and organization that goes to it. But I, I loved it. It was and that was a hard part of moving. Jake: Yeah. Jason: You know, I kind of felt like I was abandoning something that I really wanted. I always wanted, even when we were in Germany working, I was always like, okay, this is great. Europe. We're traveling. Brett: Eating schnitzel. Jason: Yeah, we get to go to Croatia on our day and on our trips or wherever it was, but I was always like, All right. And then the supervisor at the time, he would call my mom like, is he coming back? No, he's not coming back yet. And so, when I when we decided to pull the plug, it was just a phone call was like, okay, I'm ready. Come back. And they welcomed us back here with open arms and a lot of mosquito bites. Mary went down to the south entrance. [laughter] Not a lot of mosquitoes in Germany that was. Brett: Not a lot of bugs in general, probably. Jake: So, you know, we're mentioning like recruitment, retention, finding the right kind of person. So, say that there are people listening right now that are interested in this type of career. If they were to try to find this job on USA Jobs, what are they what are they looking for? Like, do is there a job series like that you're hiring for typically that, you know, Jason: We are typically we're hiring for its utility systems repair. I believe the series is 4742. Jake: Okay . Jason: We do we do hire we have some higher graded positions that are open right now that would come with, you know, being more certified at the beginning. But more and more, we're opening positions that are entry level positions we hope to do, you know, in this recruitment push, we hope to do some other things. I don't want to, you know, say things and never be able to implement them. Brett: So, yeah, this is recorded. [laughter] Jason: So then I, like you said you would do you get this huge in this one. Yeah. But I think we want to get creative and you know and work and talking to Wyoming rural water last Friday and just reach out and try to come together with other organizations that are having the same problem and try to just pull together and work through this because this is this is a nationwide kind of thing for us. Jake: Well, and it's one of those things it's one of those professions that no one notices it until something isn't going right. And when it is going wrong, it's really bad. Jason: Right. Jake: Like it's like an emergency type of a thing. So, yeah. Do you have any advice for people, like if they wanted to get started in this, you know, like if they have their certifications and everything, it sounds like they would just apply for a job because somebody is brand new. Like what? What, what are they? Start with. Jason: I think you could start with, you know, like this. It's going to, you know, that it. Even that quick Googling like water, Environmental Federation or American Waterworks Association starting with that, I feel like a lot of things just start with that. That basic research and then reach out. Every community has people that do this. Brett: Everyone has waste. Jason: Everyone has water and wastewater, you know, and I'm sure you've noticed somewhere driving around your town, you've seen somebody in a truck, Department of Public Works truck, Yellowstone has municipal features. We operate, we plow roads, we make water, we do wastewater. I would encourage people to start there, go to a water and wastewater district board meeting, meet people, get in that way with your local folks. There's a lot of people right now nationwide trying to start intern programs or apprenticeship programs or things like that. I would be really surprised if your local high school biology teacher or doesn't have or knows some way to get a hold of somebody in your community that knows the water and wastewater guy or gal. Jake: Yeah. Brett: And going on a tour like I went on tour of a wastewater treatment plant, and it was like fascinating. Like I didn't really know what I was getting into, but it was like, I want to know more about how this actually did. Do you have like a, like a really nutshell presentation of how that process works? Jason: Yeah, it all depends on the treatment facility, right. Or whatever. If it's for wastewater, if it's a biological or mechanical treatment facility, water what the source is, is it groundwater, is it surface water, those kind of thing. Jake: So, pick, pick one and like it sounds like we have all the flavors in Yellowstone. Brett: That's kind of interesting. Jake: Yeah. So, if you just say, what's the most complicated one? What's the what's the wastewater facility here that's giving you the hardest time? And like, kind of explaining? Jason: Well, I think we deal with we deal with some of the aged infrastructure that gives us a hard, harder, harder time. I think some of the ideas behind, you know, you turn it off and you turn it on every year that wears on a system more than the thought of maybe, well, you only use it six months out of the year. It should last double the time. Jake: Yeah. Jason: No, you know, and just in the in the learning of bring in this facility here in Mammoth online, it's a more modern treatment process than we have anywhere in the Park Service, you know. Teton We went down to Teton, Patrick Larson down at Teton has an MBR down there at Moose. That he's had, they've had probably maybe inside ten years. We went down there, and we talked to him and we learned about some of that. And I think what was good for us is we had that Great American Outdoors Act push already going. So, we had a lot of this stuff in the lake. We had a year under our belts, a planning for building Old Faithful in Grant Village and Canyons. So, we had some of that experience with the engineering firms already to kick this off the ground. Jake: But and one of the things I learned, you know, going out with you guys is when you said aging infrastructure, a lot of our facilities were put in like 40 or 40 plus years ago. Jason: Right. Jake: And what's the average lifespan of a facility? Jason: Well, I think that the average lifespan of a facility is if it was maintained. And we've we some we've struggled with that for a whole host of reasons. But I, I struggle with the idea of putting a number on it. Jake: Gotcha. Jason: You know, like, I don't, I don't want to say, you know, it's going to last for 50 years. It's going to last as long as we needed to last if we take care of it. Jake: Yeah. Jason: We're lucky here. We're not in a situation like a municipality that's going to put in another 15,000 homes. So, we don't we can cap our capacity for the most part. So, we don't need to worry about having another million gallons of capacity when we might do some lodging updates and infrastructure, stuff like that. But we're not going to have those same issues as a municipality, like a like a Bozeman or somewhere. Jake: But even like so if these facilities were put in 40 or 50 years ago, visitation was much lower. And where the facilities kind of built that there was room to grow them or are we kind of now we run everything even from my time here, everything that's on. Jason: When it's on, I always go back to the campgrounds were full in 2001 when I showed up and the lodging was full. In 2001 when I got here, right? Jake: Yeah. Jason: That those plants were operating the same way then as they are now. They're on their, you know, 14 hours a day or 24 hours a day. They're running, they're running at that their capacity that they were designed for. Jake: Gotcha. Well, yeah, admittedly so this is an anecdote that I like to say. When I was a little kid, you know, you'd always drive by the wastewater plant, and you'd get the smell. My mom's like, that's the wastewater plant. And in my mind, I thought it was like the pipes dumped into, like a plant with, like, leaves. [laughter] And there was like, a plant that just, like, absorbed in the waste. And I was like, Wow, that's a really cool plant. Like, just like trees. They take the carbon dioxide out of the air. Brett: The plants don't like tomato plants grow out of the sludge because we can't, like, process tomato seeds or something. Or am I just like a dream. That's a weird thing to think. Jason: No, I've heard something along those. But I mean wetland treatments is a very real process. Brett: Yeah. Jason: I mean, so it's not far off. Jake: Thank you for thank you for not making me feel like. [laughter] Brett: He's winking at us because you guys can't see it. But he's like, we’ll make Jake feel better. Jake: Yeah. So, the last question we like to ask everybody before they go is, do you have like a favorite story or memory in Yellowstone or some other national park that just like a fun thing to share with our listeners? Jason: I just think I was really lucky for the better part of 12 years to have my family here, raise my kids here in the park and just have that have that experience. But I feel blessed to have gotten to where I'm at today and I look forward to, you know, taking the challenges head on and getting to where we're going to go tomorrow. And then all those great powder days at Canyon over the course of nine winters are always in the back of my head. Brett: Do you think your kids, like, fully grasp the fact that they grew up and like, that's not normal? To get to grow up in Yellowstone. Jason: Yeah, I think I do, actually. Yeah, I think they do. But, you know, as much as a teenager can grasp. Brett: Yeah. Jason: I mean, she didn't have a phone then, so. [laughter] Brett: Yeah, those are those like icebreaker things that I think they can be like. I grew up in Yellowstone, you know? Yeah. Good story. Jake: Well, thank you so much for taking the time and talking about water and wastewater with us. It's one of those things that I, again, getting to go out with you guys and your team and seeing what you do. It's really very interesting. Also, I think everyone in Mammoth and the hotels and everybody that's here, like the fact that we can even be here because you guys got that facility up and running as fast as you did. We really appreciate that as well. Jason: Appreciate that. Thank you. It took a lot of people. Jake: Well, that's it for this week's episode of What We Do. Thanks again to our guest, Jason Murphy. If you like What We Do, write and review the show wherever you listen, because every positive review helps new listeners find the show. If you have questions or you want to learn more about a particular job, contact us using the form at go.nps.gov/WhatWeDo. Thanks for listening!
Heather Basak, Administrative Support Assistant
Miles Barger, Publications Program Manager
Katy Anderson, Law Enforcement Specialist
Brian Batzloff, Engineering Equipment Operations Supervisor
John Cataldo, Fire Management Officer
Addy Falgoust, Park Guide
Pat Bigelow, Fisheries Biologist
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