Defensive to Anti-Fragile: The Path of Waking Up and Growing Up with Diane Musho Hamilton and Gabriel Kaigen Wilson

Jennifer speaks with Zen teacher Diane Musho Hamilton and facilitator Gabriel Kaigen Wilson about walking a spiritual path: not just waking up to our inherent belonging, but growing up into emotional maturity, flexibility, and courage.

At the heart of the conversation is the tension many of us live inside—between enlightenment and the ego, urgency and presence, identity and oneness. Diane and Gabe offer practical, compassionate tools for navigating modern complexity without abandoning ourselves or each other.

In this conversation, we explore:

• Why oneness isn’t enough to navigate conflict:  why we need both the spiritual path (waking up) and the developmental path (growing up).
• How identity can be both a safe home and a tight boundary: why flexibility is essential for compassion, clarity, and connection.
• How reflective listening calms the nervous system; and becomes a practical, transformative way to stay connected through difference and polarization.

Come join us for a light hearted conversation on how to trust the grit and wisdom of our entangled, modern life.  

Links & Resources

• Get their new book Waking Up and Growing Up: Spiritual Cross Training for An Evolving World 
• Real Life Programs: training with Diane Musho Hamilton in emotional maturity, conflict resolution and leadership
• Learn more about Two Arrows Zen, a practice community co-founded by Diane Musho Hamilton and Michael Mugaku Zimmerman
• Learn with Gabe (Wisdom Gym and Executive Team Development)
• Follow Jennifer’s Substack and connect with her work

Gratitude for this show’s theme song Inside the House, composed by the talented Yukon musician, multi-instrumentalist and sound artist Jordy Walker. Artwork by the imaginative writer, filmmaker and artist Jon Marro.