Episode 168 – The Gallic Sack of Rome – Part 3

In this episode, we discuss one of the more tragic episodes from the Gallic sack of Rome. Want to know how we got here? Check out our previous coverage!

We Who Are About to Die…

The Romans who have remained in the city take up their defensive positions on the Capitol. The old patricians did not join them. Instead, their retired to their houses. Wearing their old robes of state, they settled down in the middle of their houses on ivory chairs to await the end.

Livy reports that some of his accounts indicate that the pontifex maximus (chief priest) led the ex-magistrates in a vow, in which they were devoting themselves to death for the sake of the city and its citizens.

The Gauls found their blood had cooled; after all, they had not had to fight the Romans to seize control of the city. They had just wandered in. They could see that the Capitol had been fortified, so they kept an eye on that area. However, it was time to go SHOPPING! All these abandoned streets and houses – it was theirs for the taking.

After some pillaging and plundering, the Gauls touched base again in the Forum. The plebeian houses in the area were locked up – they weren’t taking any chances whilst they were out of town. But the houses of the elite were mysteriously open.

As the Gauls entered the patrician dwellings, a shocking sight met their eyes. The old ex-magistrates, sitting as still as statues, dressed in their robes of state, just waiting for them. Not quite believing their eyes, one of the Gauls reached out to touch the beard of one of the patricians. How rude! The patrician clocked him in the head with an ivory mace. The Gauls were not going to show restraint now. The patricians were slain, the houses of the Roman citizens looted, and finally, the city was set on fire.

‘Destruction’ by Thomas Cole (1836), Courtesy of Wikipedia.

Up in Flames?

But not the whole city – these Gauls weren’t FOOLS! They wanted to keep a bargaining chip in their back pockets. Maybe these pesky Romans on the citadel might surrender to save their homes?

The Romans in question were in their own kind of hell as they sat on the Capitol and had to watch the destruction. Fortune had turned her back on them.

Did this mean that the Romans were going to give up? It most certainly did NOT! When the Gauls finally assaulted the Capital, the Romans were ready for them. They managed to hold the line. If the Gauls wanted to seize all of Rome, they were going to have to settle in for a siege.

The Exiled Camillus

As the Gauls made themselves comfortable and set about plundering the countryside, over in Ardea, the exiled Camillus heard of the attack on Rome. What could he do? Could he possibly whip up an inspirational speech and persuade the Ardeates to fight the Gallic invaders? You betcha!

Things to Look Out For:

• Dazzling rhetoric
• Far too much bloodshed
• Silent, manly tears from the Romans on the Capitol
• Ye olde time Roman racism
• The Gauls putting on a SHOW of destruction for the Romans

Our Players 393 BCE Military Tribunes with Consular Power

Q. Fabius M. f. Q. n. Ambustus (Pat)

K. Fabius M. f. Q n. Ambustus (Pat) Mil. Tr. c. p. 404, 401, 395

N. Fabius M. f. Q. n. Ambustus (Pat) Mil. Tr. c. p. 406

Q. Sulpicius -f. -n. Longus (Pat)

Q. Servilius Q. f. P. n. Fidenas (Pat) Mil. Tr. c. p. 402, 398, 395, 388, 386

P. Cornelius P. f. M. n. Maluginensis (Pat) Cos. 393? Mil. Tr. c. p. 397

Dictator

M. Furius L. f. Sp. n. Camillus (Pat) Mil. Tr. c.p. 401, 398, 394, 386, 384, 381

Master of the Horse

L. Valerius (L. f. L. n. Poplicola) (Pat) Mil. Tr. c.p. 394, 389, 387, 383

OR

L. Valerius (L. f. P. n. Potitus) (Pat) Cos. 393, 392; Mil. Tr. c.p. 414, 406, 403, 401, 398

Pontifices

?-390: M. Folius (Flaccinator?) (Pat) Mil. Tr. c.p. 433

C. or K. Fabius Dorsuo (Pat)

Augurs or Pontifex

439-390: Q. ? Servilius P. f. (Sp. n. Priscus or Structus Fidenas?) (Pat)

Successor: [—- Furi]us Q. f. P. nepos Fu[sus] (Pat) Mil. Tr. c.p. 403

Our Sources

• Dr Rad reads Livy, Ab Urbe Condita, 5.41-45.
• Dr G reads Diodorus Siculus 14.113-117; Dionysius of Halicarnassus 13.6-12; Appian, BC, 2.50; Appian, Gallic History, 1-4; Justinus, Epitome of Pompeius’ Trogus’ Philippic Histories; Aurelius Victor, De virus illustribus 23; Eutropius 1.20
• Bernard, Seth. “Rome from the Sack of Veii to the Gallic Sack.” In Building Mid-Republican Rome. New York: Oxford University Press, 2018. https://doi.org/10.1093/oso/9780190878788.003.0003.
• Bradley, G. 2020. Early Rome to 290 BC (Edinburgh University Press).
• Broughton, T. R. S., Patterson, M. L. 1951. The Magistrates of the Roman Republic Volume 1: 509 B.C. – 100 B.C. (The American Philological Association)
• Cornell, T. J. 1995. The Beginnings of Rome: Italy and Rome from the Bronze Age to the Punic Wars (c. 1000-264 BC) (Taylor & Francis) Forsythe, G. 2006. A Critical History of Early Rome: From Prehistory to the First Punic War (University of California Press)
• Duff, T. E. 2010. ‘Plutarch’s Themistocles and Camillus’. In N. Humble, ed., Plutarch’s Lives: parallelism and purpose (Classical Press of Wales: Swansea, 2010), pp. 45-86.
• Elvers, K. (., Courtney, E. (. V., Richmond, J. A. (. V., Eder, W. (., Giaro, T. (., Eck, W. (., & Franke, T. (. (2006). Furius. In Brill’s New Pauly Online. Brill. https://doi.org/10.1163/1574-9347_bnp_e416550
• Gowing, Alain M. 2009. “The Roman exempla tradition in imperial Greek historiography: The case of Camillus in Feldherr, A., ed. The Cambridge Companion to the Roman Historians. Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 2009.
• Lomas, Kathryn (2018). The rise of Rome. History of the Ancient World. Cambridge: Harvard University Press. doi:10.4159/9780674919938. ISBN978-0-674-65965-0. S2CID239349186.
• Ogilvie, R. M. 1965. A Commentary on Livy: Books 1-5 (Clarendon Press).
• Raaflaub, K. A. 2006. Social struggles in archaic Rome: new perspectives on the conflict of the orders (2nd ed). (Wiley).
• Stevenson, T.R. “Parens Patriae and Livy’s Camillus.” Ramus 29, no. 1 (2000): 27–46. https://doi.org/10.1017/S0048671X00001673.

Sound Credits

Our music is by the superb Bettina Joy de Guzman.

Automated Transcript Dr Rad 0:15
Welcome to the Partial Historians.

Dr G 0:19
We explore all the details of ancient Rome,

Dr Rad 0:23
everything from political scandals, the love affairs, the battle’s waged, and when citizens turn against each other, I’m Dr Rad

Dr G 0:33
and I’m Dr G. We consider Rome as the Romans saw it, by reading different authors from the ancient past and comparing their stories.

Dr Rad 0:44
Join us as we trace the journey of Rome from the founding of the city.

Dr G 0:56
Hello and welcome to a brand new episode of the Partial Historians. I am Dr G,

Dr Rad 1:02
and I am Dr ad, and we

Dr G 1:05
are deep, deep inside the Gallic sack of Rome. And so far, it hasn’t happened yet. But Just you wait, I think it’s gonna happen in this episode.

Dr Rad 1:15
Well, that just sounds dirty. Dr G, not even a minute in, and already disgusting.

Dr G 1:21
The Romans, they do it to me every time.

Dr Rad 1:26
Well, Dr G 390, as we know, is an epic year, so epic that we may not even be able to cover it in three episodes, which is kind of what we were anticipating. But I see a fourth in our future.

Dr G 1:37
Yeah, it’s quite potential. Now that I’ve sat down and re looked at my notes. I suspect today is not the day that we finish the sack. It’s going to go on a bit like a siege goes on for much longer than anybody wants it to.

Dr Rad 1:49
Exactly now we’ve got up to the point Dr G, where the Gauls are at the walls of Rome. Things are very dire. We’ve had Vestals in distress, fleeing before the horde of Gallic attackers,

Dr G 2:07
running away with all the sacred items that they can put their hands on, and hitching a ride to a nearby

Dr Rad 2:14
city. Yes, which we presume is Caere

Dr G 2:17
yeah, which is so far away that’s not nearby at all. You don’t want to walk all the way. That’s 50 or so kilometers, 30 miles. Luckily, they get picked up in a cart, yeah.

Dr Rad 2:28
And they kick out a wife and child so that they can get a ride with this guy, Albinius.

Dr G 2:35
And I think in terms of orientation, of where we’re up to in this story, I think it’s important to note that the Romans are losing most assuredly, this is not going well. They’ve already lost a major battle at the union of the Tiber River and the Allia, and they have retreated. Some of their soldiers have fled to ve that will become important, and some have fled back to Rome, also important. And now the Gaulish forces had time to sort of do their roundup of the sorts of things they like to do post battle, which is go around and cut everybody’s heads off and then make their way to Rome itself.

Dr Rad 3:09
Yes, so Rome itself, we have a force that have been left to defend the Citadel. Dr G because, God forbid, the Citadel should be captured.

Dr G 3:20
And importantly, the Citadel is on the Capitoline hill, so it is on the highest viewing point of the city. It has the best defense. And everybody’s like retreat to the highest place of the defenses. Retreat.

Dr Rad 3:35
And this is a particularly sacred part of the city as well. The Romans would indeed rather die than let this be taken so it is obviously very, very grim at this moment in time. Dr G, everyone has fled, except for this band of defenders. We’ve got sacred objects being stored in other cities because they can’t be left in Rome. They’re just not safe anymore. There’s also one other group who have been left behind in the city by choice, Dr, G, and that is a bunch of really old men.

Dr G 4:09
Ah, yes, those who are fabled not to be able to travel well, and have decided to take upon themselves the ultimate sacrifice, which is to defend Rome in whatever way that they can up until their last dying breath.

Dr Rad 4:24
It’s a very interesting episode. This the massacre of the senators, is what we’re going to entitle it. Sorry, everybody, yeah, it’s such a cheery episode. So we’ve got these guys who are older gents. They are mostly ex magistrates. They are prepared to take a stand. Dr, G, but it seems like there might be a bit more to this story than meets the eye, something something sacred, if you will, which I think will be right up your alley. But I’m just going to tell the story as Livy tells it first, and then we can get into the analysis of it.

Dr G 5:02
All right, I’m interested in your version because I have a version as well, and we’ll see where they cross over, and if they’re in

Dr Rad 5:08
any way similar, is yours Valerius Maximus?

Dr G 5:11
No, I’ve gone with, although I could have pulled from Valerius Maximus, I’ve actually gone with a little bit of detail from Plutarch.

Dr Rad 5:19
Okay, all right, so in Livy’s version, we’ve got these ex magistrates, older gentlemen. They decide that they’re going to dress up in their robes of state and triumphal robes, because they know that they are going to be meeting their deaths when the goals arrive. Indeed.

Dr G 5:39
Okay, so they’re going to go out with the accouterments of their their roles. This is a very noble thing for the elderly patricians to do. I have to say, we don’t tend to give the patricians a lot of credit on this podcast, because they tend to make terrible decisions, but this moment of personal sacrifice and acceptance of that sacrifice is incredibly noble of them, and I have to give them props for that. Yes.

Dr Rad 6:10
Now they position themselves on ivory chairs in the middle of their houses, ready to meet the enemy. Livy tells me that some historians, yes, I am quoting him there. Some historians say that the Pontifex Maximus, a guy called Marcus Folius, led the senators in a recitation of a solemn vow in which they devoted themselves to death on behalf of Rome and the Quirites, basically the Roman citizens. So this is where the sacred stuff comes into it. Dr, G, I’ll return to this later. The Gauls were not actually quite as raring for a fight at this point in time, after a night had passed and things had died down a little, I guess their adrenaline wasn’t pumping quite as hard as it had been previously. They hadn’t really faced a tough battle against the Romans as they were expecting previously, at the battle that you referred to the Ahala As we know, the Romans did not acquit themselves very well, and now, even more puzzling, it looks like there’s not going to be much resistance put up by the city itself. It’s pretty much deserted. They just wander in through the open Colline gate. They toddle along until they get to the forum. They’re kind of having a look at the temples, checking things out as they go. And when they spot the Citadel, they think, Okay, it looks like this might be a place where people are readied for battle. The Gauls decide that they’re going to station a small number of guards to keep a look at on the Citadel make sure that they’re not going to be attacked whilst they’re scouring the streets because they’re wary of that place. But most of them are now free to roam the city streets and go in search of booty. They meet nobody in the streets, and so some of them start getting into little groups and going into just the closest houses. Some of them are going into houses that are the furthest away, because they think, well, if these are far away, it’s probably going to be the most stuff in here that’s left behind. I’ll get there first. I’ll get all the really good stuff. But then they kind of get a little bit scared because they’re so far away from anyone else. And they kind of run back to the forum and go, it’s so spooky. There’s nobody here.

Dr G 8:42
Like nobody this place is creepy.

Dr Rad 8:46
Don’t leave me alone, you guys. I don’t even like going to the bathroom without a friend. So the houses near the forum are a popular place to look for booty because they’re all close to each other. The plebeian houses are all locked up. Gotta lock your doors when the goals are in town. Dr G, security first.

Dr G 9:05
Also you’re plebeian. It’s like, I can’t afford to lose any of this lock it up.

Dr Rad 9:09
I have no insurance. But the elite houses were open. The goals are, again, a little freaked out to find that these patrician houses aren’t locked up, and when they enter, what a sight they see these guys, dressed to the nines, just silently sitting there in the middle of their houses on ivory chairs. The Gauls were naturally awed by the sight of these God like creatures the patricians, it’s a trap. Well, not really. I don’t think these older gentlemen, no matter how spooky they look, are gonna be able to put an end. Oh no,

Dr G 9:56
they’ve taken a vow to death. It’s good.

Dr Rad 10:00
Yeah, so the goals slowly, I think, approach the older ex magistrates as they sit there, and they’re kind of gazing at them, almost like they’re looking at a sculpture or a piece of artwork, because they’re just sitting there unmoving. And this is where we get a story. And there are a couple of different versions about exactly how this plays out and indeed, who is the ex magistracies in question? But in Livy’s version, one of the Gallic warriors decides he’s actually going to touch the beard of Marcus Papirius. So sort of give it a stroke just see what’s going on there. Apparently, at this time all Romans had long beards. Didn’t know that.

Dr G 10:44
Yeah, wait a minute. So a couple of things. One, they seem so statue like that. You’re like, you know what? I wonder what would happen if I just gave a touch to the fuzz?

Dr Rad 10:56
Exactly. Papirius then hits him in the head with an ivory mace, which is seen as a provocative act on behalf of the Gauls, Papirius is therefore the first Roman in Livy’s account in the city in the sack by the Gauls to be killed. And the Gauls now longer have no interest in holding back. They are just looting through all the houses. They’re setting them on fire. They’re going crazy. And this is where we get the massacre of any patrician left in the city that’s not in the Citadel.

Dr G 11:32
Oh no, yeah. Okay, wow.

Dr Rad 11:36
Now, do you want to tell me your version of things before we get into what exactly is going on here.

Dr G 11:41
It is quite similar. So I suspect that Plutarch has read his Livy so he doesn’t mention anything about a religious connotation to it. There’s no involvement of a Pontifex Maximus, which is real shame, because I do love that kind of stuff. And hopefully this means that the Gauls have been cursed through their murdering of the old patricians, but I suppose we’ll have to wait to find out. But there is this sense that the city has been abandoned, and the Gauls take a few days to come to grips with that idea. So they’re sort of looking at it, and they’re like, doesn’t look like there’s many people here. Should we go in? And they do spend some time thinking about that. And eventually Brennus leads them into the forum, and they see men sitting in the forum, actually in this account, and they don’t move those patricians do not get up. They don’t make any gesture towards acknowledging that the ghouls are there. They continue to sit quietly. They’re leaning on their staffs, very appropriate old man, and they gaze into each other’s faces. So it’s almost like they’re in a circle of meditation with each other. How intriguing. And the ghouls are amazed and perplexed by this. And we do have this moment of one of them going up to a guy aptly named Papirius Marcus, as opposed to Marcus Papirius.

Dr Rad 13:10
Oh, I see what he did there,

Dr G 13:12
gently grasping his chin, stroking his long beard. So you know, keep in mind, patricians with long beards, they seem to be a thing right now, Papirius grabs his staff and smote the guy in the head. This pretty offensive to the Gaul, he draws his sword and kills the guy. So that’s the end of Papirius. And after that, the goals are like, we need to deal with this. They’re clearly all kind of dangerous. They look old, but someone just got hit with the stuff, so that’s not okay. And they then proceed to murder all the rest of them. They sack and plunder the houses of the city. They do that for days. Rome is quite substantial at this point in time, according to the historical record, as people understand it, maybe not so much archeologically, but they go through and apparently it takes them a few days at least of plundering to realize that they’ve got everything, and the only thing that remains is that holdout of the Capitolini hill and the Citadel upon it intriguing.

Dr Rad 14:15
Okay, well, let me unpack this episode a little bit, because this is obviously a moment of extreme weird or stuck to G Oh yes, the partial pick is going to have a field day at the end of the episode. Igor is already stretching his wings. He is he’s getting ready. It is possible that part of the details of this story has once again, come down to us through family tradition. Now it depends, obviously a little bit on who is named as the guy who strikes the Gaul in the head with his mace or his staff or whatever he’s holding, but in my account, it would presumably be someone from the gens Papirius, because that’s the person who is highlighted as being. Being the one that strikes the first blow.

Dr G 15:02
Yeah, makes sense. Yeah. And Livy’s Usually on top of his family histories in this sort of way. Does he make any gesture in that direction that he’s using family histories in this point?

Dr Rad 15:13
He doesn’t. But we know that he does use those sorts of sources, and we know that by the time Livy and Dionysius are writing, that they are using earlier analysts who might have had those stories passed on to them. We don’t know if Livy is consulting anybody directly in this particular story. He doesn’t mention it. But the thing that I thought you might find interesting is this hint of this idea of devotion, of giving up their lives in a sacred way. So this is something that is apparently discussed in Cicero, where he talks about this idea that someone could, in fact, devote themselves, and it had to be somebody who had held Imperium, or was holding Imperium, and if you were in a particular moment of crisis, someone who had held Imperium could kind of claim it again and do so by clasping their chin. And therefore, the reason that whoever it was hit the goal in the head is not just because, well, this guy is the enemy, and he’s going to kill me as soon as he has the chance, but because by stroking the beard, he might have interfered with what was a ritual gesture.

Dr G 16:31
Oh, very interesting indeed. Oh, I like it a lot.

Dr Rad 16:36
I thought you might have now, the reason that it’s not maybe easy to exactly trace all of this is that the later retellings don’t necessarily make all of this clear, but certainly, Livy has taken it to be more about wirtus than a religious act by This interpretation, if that’s what indeed is going on here.

Dr G 17:03
Well, look something like this calls into question a whole bunch of things to do with how does Imperium really work? Is it as simple as touching your chin and you

Dr Rad 17:15
return the hairs of my Chinny, chin, chin, dr, G, they’re a bit more numerous these days with perimenopause.

Dr G 17:21
Well, exactly. I mean, there’s so much Imperium to be taken as well. So I think to myself, if this is a ritual gesture, it might be related to how somebody comes into Imperium and how someone comes into that position of power. This might be related to it. So if there are gestural elements to the transference from one position to another, where one includes Imperium, perhaps we be on to something, and this is something that we really don’t have a lot of great sense about, or at least, I’ve never come across anything like this in my research. And so I’d be really interested to find out, because we know that there’s lots of gestural elements to Roman culture. There’s a whole bunch that are related to oratory, for instance, and we see some great interpretations of how gesture could be used in the public space in HBO as Rome as well, with the news teller, which I think is probably getting as close as anybody has come on screen to demonstrating how some of that might have looked in a public space, but the idea that there is a performative element to these things, and that there were understood deliberate physical movements and performances that you could do, I wonder how that would play out when we think about Imperium in a different way. I don’t know that you can necessarily just claim Imperium back. That seems like a recipe for chaos. Imagine all of those magistrates in the Senate.

Dr Rad 18:53
I think it has to be in a moment of particular crisis that you could have this ritual gesture and sort of be reclaiming your Imperium, Reclaiming my time, Reclaiming my time, fair enough, more power to you. But yes, this is something this, maybe this is something I could dig a little bit further into. But certainly, there are some questions about exactly who the person is. Valerius Maximus does include this story as well as of course, he would be totally attracted to this episode of weirdos as well, and he talks about ateleus, rather than Papirius being the person at the center of it. So I think this is probably why people have thought, hmm, have families got involved and tried to argue that it was in fact, their relative that struck the first blow against the Gauls.

Dr G 19:43
It is my ancestor who started the path to victory.

Dr Rad 19:47
It is my ancestor. No, it is my ancestor.

Dr G 19:51
I touched my chin at you. Haha, Imperium.

Dr Rad 19:54
In Livy’s account, there may have been division amongst the Gauls about what exists. Exactly to do once they had started attacking Rome, Livy mentions the possibility that maybe not all the Gauls wanted to trash the entire city, or perhaps there was a bit of a tactic going on here amongst the leaders of the Gauls, where they just wanted to freak the Romans out a little bit by just burning some of their buildings, thinking that the Romans who were left on the Citadel might surrender themselves if they saw that their homes were in danger, and then keep some of them standing so that there was a reason for them to come back out. Because, of course, if you destroy everything, the Gauls realize, Well, why would the Romans surrender like they’ve already lost everything they may as well hold out as long as they possibly could. So in Livy’s version, the fire at this point is not as terrible as it could have been in a city that’s just been seized by a gang of barbarians. Oh, wow.

Dr G 20:58
Interesting controversy reigns. So I do have a sense from some of our sources. And my sources are a little bit all over the shop. My best account comes from Diodorus. I flagged that in a previous episode. He’s considered the most reliable. I’m going to hold on to that moment for the rest of my life. But we do have a sense in which the Gauls set up their camp outside Rome to start the siege. All very clear cut. Diodorus claims that the Gauls have a force of about 70,000 for this, which is massive, and we then proceed with the burning of buildings. So a whole bunch of the houses get burnt. That’s obviously prudent from the Gauls perspective, because it clears their sight lines, but it also ensures that there’s nowhere for enemies to hide. In their opinion, they can concentrate solely on the main focus of their siege, which is the capitolini’s hill and the Citadel on it, which is where they know most of the Romans have been congregating. So once they clear out the city proper, it makes sense to level it to the ground. While this is happening, though, there is stuff going on elsewhere which is going to become important. So the Romans are in the middle of their siege preparations, all of their important goods, all of their food stuffs have been taken up to the Capitoline. They’re not aware of what’s going on outside. They can only see as far as the Gaulish army and beyond that, the Etruscans have started to raid into Roman territory, and this appears to be a bit of an issue. And what happens, at least from the accounts that I’ve been able to put together, is that the Roman forces that have bundled themselves up in Veii go out to meet those Etruscans and take them on.

Dr Rad 22:51
Okay, sorry. Can I pause right here? This is so far ahead in my account that I don’t think we’ll even get to this today. So I don’t know whether we maybe pause and come back to this part of your account. Or not, up to you, let’s pause.

Dr G 23:05
Yeah, yeah. I’m this is where my account goes next. It’s like, kind of like, we’re in Siege territory, and now the Etruscans are taking their opportunity with

Dr Rad 23:14
absolutely does happen, but it’s so far in the future for me that I don’t I couldn’t even imagine we’re going to get there.

Dr G 23:20
That’s incredible. What does Livy have to tell me?

Dr Rad 23:25
It’s mostly a lot of like histrionics, but, you know, I’ve got it to go through. So do you want me to tell you a little bit more? And you can just see, yeah, see where we go. We might get up to the Etruscans, but I’m not sure.

Dr G 23:35
Do tell me more. I’m keen to know what might be missing from my accounts, or what Livy might have invented.

Dr Rad 23:42
It’s mostly very emotional and speculative, but you know, all right, so I’m going to go back to the fire not having been as quite as terrible as it could have

Dr G 23:51
been. Okay, Rome’s on fire, but it’s not that bad.

Dr Rad 23:55
Okay. Now the Romans are watching on from the Citadel. Dr G, they see the Gauls wreaking havoc in various areas of the city, and it’s just so distressing for them. Dr, G, I know we do make fun of the Romans, and it’s hard sometimes not to laugh a little bit at how over the top sometimes Livy’s description is, but you can kind of appreciate, I suppose, they’re holed up. They can’t do anything about it. They’re just in total sensory overload. You know? They’re watching their beloved city be destroyed. They feel like there’s nothing that they can do about it. They’re hearing the sound, smelling the smells. It feels to them like fortune herself is putting on a show, a drama, for them to watch, forcing them to watch Rome fall apart.

Dr G 24:42
No, okay. Romans, very dramatic.

Dr Rad 24:46
It is. The Romans Now could see they have nothing left but themselves to fight for all their possessions are gone. The city has completely been taken by the enemy, and they had to enjoy. Endure this knowledge for the day, another night, another day. To be honest, the timeline is very unclear in Livy’s account, but I gather it’s several days of nightmarish events. But in spite of all of this, Dr G the Romans are still determined to fight. They’re gonna hold that Citadel and the Capitol they’ve lost everything, but that, in a way, makes it easier for them to stop dwelling on themselves and the pain that they were in personally, and just focus on the fight ahead. Wow.

Dr G 25:36
Okay, so they’re galvanized by what they’ve witnessed. They’re horrified and then galvanized

Dr Rad 25:42
they are. Now this might be a good point to mention that archeologically, there is very little trace of the Gallic sack in Rome.

Dr G 25:50
Yes. Well, there might be a few reasons for that. One, it didn’t happen.

Dr Rad 25:55
Two, wow, you just went straight there, didn’t you? After that dramatic account, you just completely

Dr G 26:00
undercut it. I think it’s important to register the details that maybe this did not happen. Second of all, that we’re talking about a Rome that is not monumental in the way that we think about it today. We don’t have a lot of stone structures. Yet. We don’t think we’ve got a few, but we don’t have heaps. So if you burn wood and your house is made of wood, how long do you do you think that’s going to last in the archeological record? Like there has to be some sort of layered process for that. If you’ve got a lot of ash and you’ve got a whole ash deposit layer, that’s kind of incredible. But if the Gauls are just sort of burning strategically, and it’s not a bad as fire around the city, as might be anticipated, then we’re talking about spot fires, essentially. That’s going to be very hard. You got to put down a whore as an archeologist to look at all the layers, and you picked a spot where maybe a house didn’t get burnt in 390 BCE, doesn’t look like there was a siege, does there?

Dr Rad 27:00
This is true, but there are some buildings that predate this time period that survive. So clearly, not everything was completely trashed, if we believe that there was indeed a Gallic sack of Rome at this time period. So the archeology is

Dr G 27:20
confusing, oh yes. And we’ve also got a sense that there are some walls. So there are speculation about when the servian walls were built. Was it under? Was it during the period of the kings, or was it later? It would be really handy if there was a wall right now, because the Romans are in a siege.

Dr Rad 27:40
So I guess the goals have given have given up on the idea that they’re not going to totally trash the city, in my account, and they are gradually working their way through building by building until all that’s left is the Citadel. And at this point, the girls turn around, and according to Livy, make a desperate resolution to attack the Citadel. But to be honest, that seems like a completely sane move to me, because they’ve pretty much looted the rest of the joint. What else are they going to do?

Dr G 28:08
It is the next logical step in a siege. But maybe the Gaulish people aren’t siege warfare types, generally speaking, they might be run in, hack people to pieces, chop off their heads later.

Dr Rad 28:20
Types, possibly so. At daybreak, the Gauls give a signal. They all gather together in the forum, and they decide to begin their attack. But the Romans are ready for them, and I guess because of the state of mind that they have adopted, they’re not acting in a foolhardy manner. They’re not overly passionate everything about their moves very calm and deliberate, which means that they really are ready to take on these Gallic attackers. So all possible entrance points to the citadels, the Romans had made sure were reinforced with guards, and when they saw that the Gauls were finally on their way, they made sure that their very best soldiers were in position, they let the Gauls advance, and their idea was that the higher up the Gauls came, the easier it would be for the Romans to push them back, because they held the high ground. So they’re thinking very strategically here.

Dr G 29:18
Yes, it makes sense. It gets steeper. And if you can push somebody over and then they do that thing with their arms, where they’re like, whoa, and it can have a cascading domino effect upon the other people behind them. It’s fantastic as a defense strategy.

Dr Rad 29:32
Now finally, our two forces meet in the midst of a declivity Dr G, which I learned is a part in the approach, where it’s lower than all the areas around it. So a perfect moment for the Romans to encounter the Gauls, and it really allows them to throw themselves in. And they managed to drive the Gauls back so definitively that the Gauls decided, whew, we cannot attempt that again. That is. Crazy that it’s just suicide, even though we so clearly vastly outnumber this tiny group of people who only have a limited amount of provisions. We can’t possibly attempt that again. And so this is where they decide that they’re just going to blockade the Romans who are on the Citadel. They hadn’t planned for this. They hadn’t foreseen this in their future, and they had actually burnt all the corn in Rome when they had set fire to the various areas in the city, or perhaps the corn in the field had just been taken to they so the Gauls decided instead that they needed to split their army. They’re going to use part of their army to go around and loot all the people that live around Rome so that they can get the supplies that they need to feed the entire group and the rest are going to stay and besiege the Romans on the citadels, and they’re going to have the supplies brought to them by the pillagers.

Dr G 30:54
Okay, so the Gauls have made some mistakes, some tactical errors. They weren’t prepared for a siege, as it turns out, the truth has finally revealed, and now they’re like we have to ravage the surrounding countryside to feed ourselves, to sustain us while we conduct a siege.

Dr Rad 31:11
And this would make sense if we go back to a theory which I mentioned before, which is that the whole backstory we have for the reasons why the Romans and the Gauls are at war is totally made up, and that it is somewhat accidental that the Gauls end up encountering the Romans, and that they were, in fact, headed somewhere else, hired as mercenaries to serve somebody else, and that this whole thing is just a chance encounter.

Dr G 31:39
Well, be that as it may. I think the most valid reason is the one where they were looking for somewhere that would be cooler to live. But they’ve ended up in Rome in July, and that’s not a great time. It’s pretty hot now. They’re unhappy, and they’re involved in a siege. So I don’t know if the Gauls are having the best year so far.

Dr Rad 32:00
Fortune is starting to, I think, look out for our little Romans again. Dr G because the departing Gauls fortune makes sure that they head towards Ardea. Why is Ardea a fortunate place for them to have gone? Why Camillus had gone there in his exile, and he was completely devastated when he heard about the attack on Rome. He was even more upset about the sack of Rome than he was by his own personal misfortune, which had driven him into this exile. But he also is confused. Dr G he doesn’t understand how he had led such valiant warriors from Rome against city of A and the falerii, and they had just triumphed completely trounce them, and then all of a sudden, the goals just walk in and take it doesn’t make sense even to Camillus.

Dr G 33:00
Now this is really interesting, because Livy is going in a direction which my narrative definitely goes in, but doesn’t enter into until way later on. So interesting. The idea that Camillus is even part of this narrative is completely questionable. When I start looking at the source material and I try to line it up in some sort of chronology that would make any kind of sense, and this is way too early for Camillus to be turning up in this narrative, in some respects, based on how his story is told in other sources, including Appian Dionysus of Halicarnassus and Diodorus Siculus. So but to recap a little bit about where Camillus is. He is in aedea because he’s been exiled from Rome, and he’s chosen exile because he doesn’t want to pay the bills and nobody’s going to support him. He’s fallen out of favor. And he does say, in that moment, he was praying the prayer of Achilles that the time might come when the Romans would long for Camillus. So he’s had that moment where he’s kind of set Rome up for this misfortune, maybe inadvertently, but he wants to be wanted, and he wants Rome to be desperate enough to want him back. Now, however, we start to see a turnaround in the books, and there’s a few different places in the narrative where this second prayer from Camillus could come in, but this would be one of the potential times where he says, I could not have prayed to the gods that the Romans might sometime long for me, if I had cherished any such feeling as that towards them. Now I pray the nobler prayer that I may render my country, a service equal to the calamity that has befallen

Dr Rad 34:44
her. That’s good stuff.

Dr G 34:47
Yes, juicy Camillus.

Dr Rad 34:50
Look, I am not surprised at all that your Greek sources would be bringing Achilles into this whole mess. Well. Debbie, you’re right. You are right. This is something that definitely academics have highlighted, that Camillus is obviously a major figure in this story of the sack of Rome, even though he’s not actually there for the sack, apparently. And certainly, other scholars have noted the lack of agreement in our sources in the order in which things happen so completely, Livy has got a different order to all of these other sources that you’ve mentioned. And it highlights, I suppose, different things about Camillus role in this whole story. To get back to my version of things, which is obviously the correct version, yeah. Camillus hears at this moment, whilst he’s wondering what on earth happened to Rome. Have the Romans lost their groove? Do I need to help them get it back? He hears that the Gauls are on their way heading out to Ardea. Naturally, the people in Ardea are in a total state of panic and have no idea what to do. Luckily for them, Camillus, the hero with the mostest, is around, and he’s struck, and I quote, with an inspiration, nothing less than divine. Oh, the gods look out for him. And he inserts themselves into their state of panic.

Dr G 36:24
Wow. Camillus.

Dr Rad 36:26
Livy tells me that Camillus doesn’t really like these sorts of meetings. Not a crowd man, not a crowd pleaser. But this is a different scenario. Get ready for an inspirational speech. Dr, G,

Dr G 36:40
I will strap myself in. Come on. Camillus, do your worst.

Dr Rad 36:44
He addresses the ardeans. He says he’s aware that he is in exile, and he wants to repay their kindness for allowing him to come and live amongst them. Did they know he has a bit of a handy little knack for war. The Ardeans owe the Romans because of the relationship they have had in the past. We’ve talked about their relationship with Rome. Previously, the Romans have lavished benefits upon them, and the Ardeans know that Camillus doesn’t need to list them all. Now, ADEA could now also not only repay the Romans for their past kindnesses, because they’ve sorted out disagreements with other cities in the past, but they could win themselves glory if they decided to take on the goals and win the goals were naturally bold, brave and big, very scary. Camillus acknowledges this, but they also need to remember that they are scatterbrained, changeable, racist comment, racist comment, racist comment.

Dr G 37:53
They can’t think when they overheat.

Dr Rad 38:00
The tend to malfunction in the snow

Dr G 38:03
exactly a strong wind knocks them right over.

Dr Rad 38:07
And I again, I’m going to quote my translation of Livy so in Camillus, words to every conflict, they bring more terror than strength. And you can see this in what they have just done to Rome. They may have just been able to waltz in and completely devastate the city, but that’s because there weren’t really any Romans around. As soon as they came up against a teeny, tiny little group of Romans. The Romans had managed to keep them in their place, and Camillus knew that the Gauls, by this stage, were getting bored by the siege. They don’t have a long attention span. Racist comment, racist comment, they’re not able to stay in one place. Racist comment, racist comment, they’re constantly wandering off into the countryside to stuff themselves with food and wine. Racist comment, racist comment, and at night, they don’t even bother to erect any protections around themselves. There are no ramparts, there are no pickets, there are no sentries. They just sleep beside a stream like animals, so much victory has gone completely to their heads that they’re not even taking proper precautions. Racist comment, racist comment, racist comment.

Dr G 39:20
Ah, well, this is in keeping with some of the comments that come through from other sources as well. Apparently, the Gauls get soft from eating all the delicious Roman food and drink, and they lose their fitness and become quite incapable of running all hardship. And when any exertion is required, they become exhausted by perspiration and shortness of breath, according to Appian. And we also have this idea coming through in Plutarch as well about Camillus capabilities in persuading the Ardeans to get involved. He doesn’t necessarily put it into a speechifying moment, but he does. Say that when they notice that the Gauls are on the horizons of Ardea, that he is able to persuade the young Ardean men in particular to pluck up their courage and support Rome’s desperate cause.

Dr Rad 40:14
Yes, this is exactly the moment that I am building to, because the end of Camillus speech, he says, Look, if you guys want to save yourselves and also win that glory for stopping the relentless advance of the Gauls, which might just be an accident, we don’t know. They need to get their arms together. They need to follow Camillus. And again, I’m going to quote my translation, not to a battle, but a massacre. Camillus says to them, If I do not deliver them up to you, fast asleep, to be butchered like cattle. Well, you can exile me from Ardea, just like I was exiled from Rome. He loves making these really bold pronouncements. Why is it always have to come down to this.

Dr G 40:59
I’ll just leave this place as well. That’s fine. Failure is exile. I understand.

Dr Rad 41:07
I’ll land on my feet. I always do. Now, the people who like Camillus at this point, as well as the people who are opposed to him are just blown away by him at this moment. Doesn’t matter which side you were on, everyone’s now on Camillus side. And again, I can’t help but quote my translation. There was no such warrior in those days anywhere. He is incomparable. Dr G so when the Ardennes left the council, they wait for a signal to leave, and when it came in the early evening, they go out to meet Camillus at the gates, and it’s not far out of the city when they stumble across the camp of the Gauls. And it was exactly like Camillus had told them, no guards, no security. And so they’re feeling very cheerful about that. Now I’m going to pause at this moment and highlight that most historians think that all of this is completely fictional.

Dr G 42:04
Yes, yes, I hate to say it. I’m sitting with those scholars. One this order of events seems mad, but also I don’t know. I mean, what’s going on guys? What is even happening in our day? What is happening in central Italy. What we do get is a sense that if we’re following this line, and this is definitely a line that Plutarch and Livy agree on, is that by cutting off this Gaulish force, which is out foraging essentially as far south as Ardea, which is indicative of some information that we haven’t covered yet, which is the length of the siege of Rome to be foraging this far south of Rome. This means that the Gauls have stripped bare everything between Ardea and Rome already, and one of the estimates in the literary sources is that this is a siege that takes about seven months and it starts in yay, starts in July and doesn’t wrap up until February of the next year. Wow. So it’s the height of the harvest, essentially when the siege begins. So the things are pretty bright for the picking. So for if we, if we’re playing with that kind of timeline, and it’s all very hypothetical, and obviously it’s the sort of thing that scholarship has lots of questions about. But let’s, let’s say for a moment that the siege did start in July for them to wind up all the way down in Ardea, which is a goodly way from Rome, like they’re nearby. If you’re driving a car today, it doesn’t take too long, but if you’re walking and you’re stripping the fields as you go, and then taking the stuff back to the people who are holding the siege, because you’re going to have to do that pretty regularly. It’s going to take a bit of time to get this far. We’re probably months into the siege already, and then Camillus, apparently, with the help of the ardean force, sacks this Gallic camp, which is a pillaging and foraging camp, and if they have booty, so be it. But they’re mostly there to pick up food stuffs and to make things easier for the siege back at Rome. So this is a bit of a blow to the siege, if this is the kind of narrative sequence that we’re looking at,

Dr Rad 44:16
for sure, and certainly, I think one of the things that modern scholars are pointing out is that all of this just seems to be set up to heighten the tensions of the story and obviously make it a real like, Ooh, what is Camillus going to do? When is he going to return? What’s going to happen? And this in Livy’s account, I think gives Camillus a role in striking a blow for revenge against the Gauls by events playing out in this manner. I’m going to have to go to a spoiler here at this point, dr, G, and that is something that I don’t think I’ve mentioned so far, which is that we do have a mention of these events in Polybius, who is using a very early source. Fabius Pictor, quite a respected analyst, one of our earliest Roman historians. In fact, I think he is the earliest Roman historian, and one

Dr G 45:08
of the ones that we kind of wish we had as well. We don’t. We don’t have a lot of Fabius pictor only through other sources.

Dr Rad 45:14
Now, he doesn’t mention Camillus at all when he’s talking about these events, and he makes mention in his account that the Romans, when the Gauls show up at their gates, pay them to go away.

Dr G 45:29
We’ll get to that. Don’t you worry. And I would also put Further to that, that in Diodorus Siculus account, Camillus does not turn up until very late in the piece as well, and he’s considered relatively accurate, I suppose, for for for some so I think that’s quite interesting as well, that Camillus does take a very different role in Diodorus Siculus account, and it’s a much lesser role than the One that Livy wants to give. I would say

Dr Rad 46:02
yes, but hey, at least Livy’s account has given him a chance to put hideous stereotypes of barbarians into Camillus mouth.

Dr G 46:11
Look, I love a good story. I don’t appreciate the racism.

Dr Rad 46:15
So Camillus and his forces from Ardea having stumbled across this camp, as you noted, Dr G, completely slaughter everyone in it. Now this is helped by the fact that the camp was complete mess and total chaos, because, you know, barbarians, stereotype, stereotype, the aedeans and Camillus just basically kill men in their sleep, anyone who is sleeping a little bit further away, they are in obviously a state of total confusion. If they do hear what’s going on, they kind of try and run away in a really panicked state. And some of them end up just running smack back into the attacking forces because they don’t know what’s going on. Some of them manage to get away, get away. And apparently a lot of them end up in antium and they’re kind of just wandering around until the locals come out and finish them off.

Dr G 47:09
That’s terrible. I

Dr Rad 47:11
know it’s a bit of a sad story, all right. Dr, G, so I feel like this is maybe a good moment for us to wrap up. We’ve got our moment of revenge upon the attacking Gauls, although it feels oddly unsatisfying after all the stereotypes that Camillus has played on thanks, Camillus once again. But that means that it’s time for the partial pick. All right.

Dr Rad 47:40
Dr, G, can you please tell us what is the partial pick all about?

Dr G 47:43
Oh, the partial pick. We are going to judge the Romans as they would have wished to be judged by their own standards. And there’s going to be 50 Golden Eagles up for grabs, 10 across, five categories each. The first of all being military clout.

Dr Rad 48:01
Well, some I guess it’s a bit of an odd one, isn’t it? Because we’ve got camilius Getting this revenge at the last minute, but he’s assisted by the aedeans. I don’t know how much that counts. And then we’ve got the Romans on the Citadel managing to hold off the Gauls, but the Gauls are sacking the city. I don’t know how I rate this.

Dr G 48:22
Yeah, it’s a challenging one. The Romans push some people down a hill, and Camillus cuts some throats while people are sleeping. Yeah, I would say that none of these are great examples of military clout, necessarily. The siege defense is the siege defense, and it’s probably great for the Romans that they’ve managed to push the Gauls back there, but attacking a camp of people who have been described and set up to be killed essentially as being not very military minded, doesn’t seem like an example of Roman military clout.

Dr Rad 48:58
So well, it’s not cidans. Yes,

Dr G 49:02
there’s one Roman in there. We give, I suppose we could give them one point for one Roman doing something.

Dr Rad 49:09
Yeah, okay, let’s give them one point. All right.

Dr G 49:12
Our second category is diplomacy. Ah, I don’t think so. I’m not feeling a lot of diplomacy, no.

Dr Rad 49:20
I mean, unless we count Camillus talking the aediles into helping out the Romans. Is that diplomacy? I feel like it’s not. That’s persuasion. Yeah, yeah, all right. Third category, expansion, most decidedly not. They’re about to lose everything they’ve

Dr G 49:39
ever had. Boo zero for expansion, yeah, our fourth category is virtus.

Dr Rad 49:46
Okay, now we have something to work with. We’ve got a bunch of ex magistracies who maybe have committed a religious act, or maybe they are just extremely virtuous men, but either way. Okay, they’re going down with the ship, Dr G, and I think it is meant to be kind of protecting Rome. You know, they’re giving their lives for Rome, and maybe trying to, I wonder if this is almost trying to win back the favor of the gods. Because remember, in the build up to this whole account, we’ve constantly been seeing the Romans get on the wrong side of the gods, and this is meant to be a sign that they’re heading towards disaster. The disaster is here, but the last moment Romans finally acting in a way that the gods can be like, I see

Dr G 50:30
you, yeah. And you could read what is happening with those men sitting in really prominent places, either in their houses or in the forum, as being within the sacred bounds of the city. So them, yes, their blood being spilt by an enemy does constitute some kind of sacrifice in a kind of ritual, God fearing kind of way. This is not just any kind of death. This is blood of Romans spilt within the sacred bounds of the city

Dr Rad 51:00
and the Romans don’t, well, they like to think that they don’t go in for human sacrifice, in spite of later things like gladiators and whatnot, but let’s not go down that path now, certainly for the Romans, a human sacrifice is the highest kind of sacrifice.

Dr G 51:17
Yes, and I dare say that if you’d asked them about Gladiators, it’s too early for that. But if, even if you did ask them in a time where it was relevant, they would say, well, they’re not Romans.

Dr Rad 51:28
This is true. But what about the vessels that get buried alive? Dr, G, what about

Dr G 51:31
them? Oh, that’s a real sacrifice. Yeah.

Dr Rad 51:35
Anyway, okay, so how much we’re gonna give them for their the massacre of the senators?

Dr G 51:41
Look, I don’t want to give them full marks, because I feel like the patricians will be rewarding them outsized for the thing, like they the reason why they’re there is because they’re physically not able to handle the travel of fleeing.

Dr Rad 51:54
So we’ll see that’s not actually something that Livy mentions. Now, obviously he’s building it up to be a really stoic moment in his story, and he wants the Romans to come out like a hero, but that is not really what they seem to be doing here.

Dr G 52:10
Hmm, okay, well, leaving that aside, yeah, we’ve got the eldest former magistracies of Rome remaining behind as a kind of divine gesture. I think that’s pretty good in terms of where to us.

Dr Rad 52:26
Yeah, I think it’s more in Livy’s account, the way it’s set up. I mean, there is probably a practical element to it in terms of, you know, where they get a run because they’re older, but it does seem more like these are old men who have long and storied careers behind them, and they’re just prepared to die. They’re like, this is my moment, and that’s why they decide to stay.

Dr G 52:48
And also like, this is my home. I am Roman. This is Rome. I stay in Rome. Yes, exactly, yes. And all of that makes sense. So I think we’re looking at maybe a seven.

Dr Rad 52:59
Okay, yep, seven is good, all

Dr G 53:02
right, and our final category is the citizen score. Is it a good time to be a Roman?

Dr Rad 53:09
What Romans? I mean,

Dr G 53:12
it’s not a great time to be a Roman. I don’t think the people on the Capitoline Hill are having a great time, but they’re alive.

Dr Rad 53:19
They are alive, but they are living on rations, and they’re having to watch their beloved city get torched and looted by people that they don’t understand and seemingly came out of nowhere. All right, sounds like a solid zero, yeah. I mean, there are still some people alive at they obviously, and maybe they’re doing a little bit better, but they’re there because they can’t go back to Rome.

Dr G 53:44
Oh yes, do not forget about they. Oh, I’ve got a lot to say about they.

Dr Rad 53:48
All right. Well, Dr, G, if that’s why we’re calling it, it means that the Romans get eight out of 50 Golden Eagles for this episode. But I have to say that’s kind of still more than I was expecting during the sack of Rome, and this is obviously for only part of the year of 390 or thereabouts.

Dr G 54:10
Look, they’ve definitely earned less. And I mean, kudos to them. The patricians are getting them over the line this time.

Dr Rad 54:19
Oh gosh, what a sad sentence to have to finish on.

Dr G 54:22
Well, I look forward to continuing. I suspect we will be talking about the Gallic sack of Rome in our next episode.

Dr Rad 54:30
Oh, I think we will. In fact, I’m actually starting to think, is this going to

Dr G 54:34
be five episodes? Yes, I’m now, yes, now that you threw a curve ball at me and you were like, we’re not up to the Etruscans. Yet in this episode, I was like, Oh no,

Dr Rad 54:45
I know how the Romans feel. By

Dr G 54:48
the end of it, we’ll be like, I’m so glad the Siege has broken.

Dr Rad 54:52
All right. Dr, G, well, I shall look forward to being holed up on the citadel with you for a few more episodes. Woohoo.

Dr Rad 55:09
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