Heather McGhee - The Sum of Us - S8 | E18

2026-06-10

Download

While the podcast team is taking a Radical Sabbatical, Kim is interviewing authors of the books that have had a big impact on her in the past two years. In this episode, Kim speaks with Heather McGhee, the author of The Sum of Us: What Racism Costs Everyone and How We Can Prosper Together, a New York Times bestseller. Heather takes Kim on a journey through US history, demonstrating how efforts to exclude some of us from public goods harm all of us, starting with public swimming pools in the United S...

While the podcast team is taking a Radical Sabbatical, Kim is interviewing authors of the books that have had a big impact on her in the past two years.

In this episode, Kim speaks with Heather McGhee, the author of The Sum of Us: What Racism Costs Everyone and How We Can Prosper Together, a New York Times bestseller. Heather takes Kim on a journey through US history, demonstrating how efforts to exclude some of us from public goods harm all of us, starting with public swimming pools in the United States. As Heather describes in The Sum of Us, “By World War II, the country’s two thousand pools were glittering symbols of a new commitment by local officials to the quality of life of their residents, allowing hundreds of thousands of people to socialize together for free…A Pennsylvania county recreation director said, “Let’s build bigger, better, and finer pools. That’s real democracy. Take away the sham and hypocrisy of clothes, don a swimsuit, and we’re all the same.” These swimming pools were remarkable public resources. The Fairground Park Pool had a sandy beach, elaborate diving boards, and a capacity of 10,000 people. However, when cities across the country were forced to integrate these pools, they chose to fill them in with dirt instead. Nobody got to swim–except people wealthy enough to join private clubs.

Starting in the late 1960s, the same illogic was applied to more consequential areas of life than swimming pools. As the public began to perceive that government programs like welfare, healthcare, education, and infrastructure funding would benefit Black and Brown Americans, political support for these public goods collapsed. For example, when Texas rejected Obamacare, its rural hospitals began going bankrupt, resulting in medical deserts and economic devastation in rural Texas towns.

Today, we have a choice: the solidarity dividend that results from public goods that benefit everyone; or the devastation for everyone that results from the kind of zero-sum thinking that would cause a community to destroy public goods rather than make them available to everyone.

Guest Background: Heather McGhee designs and promotes solutions to inequality in America. The Sum of Us: What Racism Costs Everyone and How We Can Prosper Together spent 10 weeks on the New York Times bestseller list and was long-listed for the National Book Award and Carnegie Medal for Excellence in Nonfiction, among numerous other awards. In the summer of 2022, The Sum of Us was adapted into a Spotify podcast by Higher Ground, the production company of Barack and Michelle Obama. The Sum of Us was adapted into a young adult readers’ version by Random House Children’s in February 2023. The adaptation for middle and high-school students received starred reviews from School Library Journal and Booklist, and Kirkus named it a Best Young Adult Book of the Year.

CHAPTERS

(00:00) Introduction to Radical Sabbatical and Bacon's Rebellion

(02:05) Bacon's Rebellion: A Historical Perspective on Race Relations

(04:49) The Economic Impact of Racism on Society

(06:34) The Race Class Narrative Project and Its Implications

(16:30) Education: The Cost of Inequality

(22:09) Healthcare: The Consequences of Drained Public Goods

(24:37) Racialized Healthcare Politics

(26:32) The Impact of Medicaid Expansion

(28:38) The Mortgage Crisis and Racial Discrimination

(31:24) The Canary in the Coal Mine

(34:58) Unionization and Economic Power