The chat-based search dilemma: Is Keyword Research Obsolete? With Zak Ali, Finder

Chat-based search and LLMs are blowing up the old keyword-first playbook. Zach Ali (GM, US at Finder) makes the case for “anti-SEO”: persona-led content, utility over templates, and measuring revenue and LLM visibility - not vanity traffic.

We dig into query fan-out (why many focused pages beat one pillar), how first-party data and calculators earn citations, and why today’s SEO must be a full-stack marketer across paid, video, and newsletters. Plus: a quick take on making CRO wins stick beyond the initial spike.