“The Most Destructive Chief Justice in My Lifetime”: Dissecting John Roberts with Lisa Graves

2026-06-23

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Rhiannon interviews Lisa Graves – right‑wing influence expert, former Justice Department official, co‑host of Legal AF, and founder of True North Research – about her latest book, Without Precedent: How Chief Justice Roberts and His Accomplices Rewrote the Constitution and Dismantled Our Rights.Check out Without Precedent here! If you're not a 5-4 Premium member, you're not hearing every episode! To hear this and other Premium-only episodes, access to our Slack community, and more, join at

Rhiannon interviews Lisa Graves – right‑wing influence expert, former Justice Department official, co‑host of Legal AF, and founder of True North Research – about her latest book, Without Precedent: How Chief Justice Roberts and His Accomplices Rewrote the Constitution and Dismantled Our Rights.

Check out Without Precedent here!

If you're not a 5-4 Premium member, you're not hearing every episode! To hear this and other Premium-only episodes, access to our Slack community, and more, join at fivefourpod.com/support.

5 to 4 is presented by Prologue Projects. This episode was produced by Allison Rodgers. Leon Neyfakh provides editorial support. Our website was designed by Peter Murphy. Our artwork is by Teddy Blanks at Chips NY, and our theme song is by Spatial Relations.

Follow the show at @fivefourpod on most platforms. On BlueSky, find Peter @notalawyer.bsky.social, Michael @fleerultra.bsky.social, and Rhiannon @aywarhiannon.bsky.social.

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