4: Why Are We Here?

What’s the purpose of education? If you were to ask 10 different people this question, you may get 10 different answers. Education shouldn’t be this complex, but getting people to come to a consensus on anything right now is a challenge. This can be a problem. If teachers are expected to meet ambiguous goals, it can lead to burnout and frustration.  In this episode, we hear how conflicting values in education may be contributing to teachers’ decisions to leave. 

 Music: 

Theme Song By Julian Saporiti 

“Your Paradigm Dial” by Origami Repetika is licensed under a CC  BY license.  

“Room With a View” by Jahzzar is licensed under a CC BY-SA license. 

“Business Getaway  ” by Scott Holmes Music is licensed under a  CC BY-NC license.

“I Was Different” by Ov Moi Omm is licensed under a CC  BY license. 

 “Sunny Afternoon” by HoliznaCC0 is in the Public Domain.

Transcript:

In the spring of 2016, Julian Saporiti, the guy that made the theme song for this podcast, asked me if I wanted to help him teach a summer road trip class for the University of Wyoming. It was easy to say yes, and this class ended up being one of the most influential educational experiences that I’ve ever had. 

Many of our students felt the same way. One of them, Sam Mallory, even talked about it in his graduation speech. 

Sam Mallory: Two years ago about this time of year, I was officially enrolled in the most influential course in my college experience

And what made this class so significant likely had to do with the fact that we valued experience over product, which is a pretty non-traditional approach to a college course..

Our Syllabus included the following: 

• Introductions: Julian Saporiti -  Instructor /Guitarist. Charles Fournier Advisor/ Contemplation Mentor

• Books: Jack Kerouak’s On The Road and John Steinbeck’s Travels with Charlie

• Music: Songs and lyrics for sing-alongs

• Assignments: This list included items like helping a stranger, keeping a journal, and dancing in the moonlight

• Safety Measures: Information about bear country, how to react if lost, and how to create a cross-draft in your vehicle to fart rather than holding it in and risking feeling sick 

• Traveling Recommendations for Women: A list focused on hygiene and affirmations created by wife, Jennie, who is a brilliant traveler but opted to stay home to plan for classes and manage our new ornery dog

• Lastly: “Be Amazed. Be Present.”

We set out for two weeks across Wyoming, Idaho, and Montana. We danced to music by firelight in the Tetons under the Milky Way. I taught a pair of girls how to build a fire and when they asked what I thought about feminism, we read parts of The Vagina Monologues while lighting things on fire- one of those girls just wrote an award-winning screenplay. We observed the wildlife of national parks and saw some animals as well. 

I love this model for education. A kind of structure of non-structure that gives students a chance to grow autonomy and learn on the go. It was an experience, and the students were, if not changed, greatly impacted by that course. Julian and I were too. 

I tried to apply some of the elements of this course to my high school classes the next school year. I wanted kids to sit around a fire and have conversations, to worry less about grades or tests, and to focus on collaborative experiences that result in knowledge acquisition. 

Then the school year started. My fire pit idea was struck down, and the weight of standardized assessments, and everything else settled into place. My idealism was smothered by bureaucratic reality. There’s nothing quite like having your grand plan for the new school year get deflated by October. And this brings me to a question that I have continuously returned to as a teacher when this happens - What’s the point of education? Why are we here?

The answer is ambiguous, and that uncertainty has led to conflict and confusion in education. So on the show today, we will ask “What’s the purpose of education?” Because if we can’t come to a consensus, teachers will continue to be expected to meet all of the competing thoughts about for what education is for. This is frustrating and adds to the stress and burnout that is leading teachers to find careers that might have more clearly defined parameters. 

This is Those Who Can’t Teach Anymore, a 7-part podcast series exploring why teachers are leaving education and what can be done to stop the exodus. I’m Charles Fournier.

Here is part 4: “Why Are We Here?”

Why we educate kids seems like it should be an easily answered question. But in my conversations with all levels of people involved in and around education, there wasn’t a clear consistent answer: 

Gary Martin:We have to work on their cognitive skills, you know, the critical thinking.

Christy Chadwick: I think we have this idea that the purpose of education is to raise the next generation. But now, it sort of feels like a control factor. It feels like we're just controlling society through education.  

Caskey Russell: Fostering creativity in the students, critical thinking, removing kind of cultural blind spots, providing kind of an equal access all across the board, regardless of class race, getting an idea of community, American community as the kind of multicultural tapestry.

Lindsey Freeman: I mean, that's a big part of it is workforce development. But just citizens, I mean, our government or politicians, like everything that our world needs to continue starts in the classroom. 

Jaye Wacker: Oh, my gosh, to protect a democratic republic. You know, pure and simple. We have to be educated, we have to be able to see through the bullshit, you know. 

Jennica Fournier: I thought my role was to teach students about chemistry and biology. But I think sometimes there's the expectation that you're babysitting them. or that you're keeping them safe. 

Shane Atkinson: I really tried to make it about the human connection. 

Elizabeth Smith: The purpose of education is to train our people to be worker bees, and to have the skills necessary to devote their entire lives towards the betterment of a few elite versus the greater good of all. 

It’s a lot, and that can be a problem. And there is a split between the ideal for what education is for and the reality that often stifles idealism. What we do know is that an educational system is inherently political because it reflects a country’s values. But what is valued in the US is continuously evolving and hard to pin down. 

Education started in the Americas as a way to teach kids how to be a part of their community. Then it started to shift with colonization. Education went from being morality focused - teaching literacy so that people could read the Bible. To Democracy and assimilation focused - forcing people to fit a standard ideal while emphasizing being an active citizen. To worker focused - creating industrialized systems to set people up to enter the workforce. To academic and standards focused - standardizing curriculum with the intent to compete on the global scale. 

But now, as demonstrated by the crazy political climate, what we value as a country is unclear, so what education should look like is also unclear.  

This lack of clarity is landing at the feet of teachers. And having a job with no clear and agreed upon objective is frustrating. Should teachers be focused on standardized tests, on learning, on mental health, on social health, on morality, on graduation rates? It’s not clear.

But what is clear, is that having more of a shared value system would be valuable. A shared vision of what education is for. This would give teachers a clear objective that does not leave room for the petty arguments that are at the heart of so many educational dilemmas that are driving teachers out. 

I think we can get there. I spoke with people from all over the political spectrum for this podcast, and I am certain that we can get to a shared set of values.  

Juan Laden: Fundamentally, we need to make available within our teaching environment the understanding of other people and the possibilities for children to do so many things.

Juan Laden sat down with me at the Lander Bake Shop. I had set up a microphone and taped up a sign with two questions: Why are teachers leaving Education? And What is the Purpose of Education? Because I don’t want to hassle folks, I sat quietly with my dirty chai and waited for people to come to me. Juan sidled over in a dutch cap, still chewing on a pastry, and starting answering questions before he even sat down. 

Juan Laden: I think they're good teachers, and that's why they're leaving. And so that's, are you recording this? Good, good?

Juan is a lot of things. He has never been a public school teacher, but he was an experiential climbing instructor for the National Outdoor Leadership School or NOLS, he has traveled around and lived in Europe, he is knowledgeable in many things including plumbing and photography, and he knows a lot about pedagogy, this is a word educators use to talk about the method or practice of teaching:

Juan Laden: And basically, I think the concept in America of education is filling a receptacle, and that is not what it's about. 

What Juan is referring to is also called the banking method - the idea is that a student’s educational experience is to get packed full of information, and that’s it. The banking method is not a popular pedagogy because it lacks a need for critical thinking and creativity and disregards the fact that students come to school already possessing knowledge. Many folks I spoke with push against this focus of education - to pack kids full of information. Juan agrees, and he explained that he thinks education should feel more like caving. 

Juan Laden:  I'm a caver and talk about exploration. Most people don't like the idea of caving. I tell them they just had a difficult birth and never got over it. But you know, it's like, what a trip. You're exploring to the max. When you find a new cave…the dream of all cavers is to find the big, going cave, like, “Wow, there's a hole and you go in there, and it goes, and it goes, and there's more.” The idea that you're actually going where no one's been before, and that's what exploration is. It is a very deep drive in all humans to start out with - that curiosity, that emotional need to explore is driven by curiosity.

Exploration was a tenet of that Road Trip class, and something I wish my high school classroom had more of now. We gave the students the freedom to choose where they wanted to go and how they wanted to get there. This is how we ended up at a hot spring called Chicken Soup in Idaho. Idaho wasn’t even in our original plan. 

The desire to explore was also an ideal across many of my conversations with teachers about what education is for - to help students jump into a metaphorical or literal cave. But the reality of teaching in a public school setting is that this ability to delve into curiosity is often devalued by what is required in the curriculum, community pressures, or a lack of resources. And the breadth of information that needs to be covered in a curriculum sometimes does not allow for depth or the chance for student exploration. 

I know of several projects that students would learn from and enjoy that were dead on arrival because they did not meet a curricular requirement or wouldn’t work for a specific standardized assessment. Such limits can take away from the joy of teaching and we’ve already seen that it can lead to teachers quitting. 

Exploration is something worth valuing, but based on how our system is currently structured, it isn’t valued enough. 

To get another idea about this question, we’re going to take a step back and start with what an educational jack-of-all-trades says about the purpose of education.

I met up with Colby Gull at his office. Colby is the Managing Director for the trustees education initiative in the College of Education at the University of Wyoming. I asked him what the purpose of education is:

Colby Gull: That is too complex of a question for your podcast, probably. 

This shouldn’t be the case. To me, this is part of the problem. I wish education could be simpler. For instance, for their final project during the road trip class, a pair of students designed and printed a t-shirt for the class. And they created a slogan for each person in the course. Mine read “Just trying to teach people not to be assholes.” And you know, that sums up my pedagogy pretty well. 

But Colby’s right. Our country’s current view of education is very complex. We can’t easily say that education should be for exploration like Juan says, or that education is trying to teach people not to be assholes like my t-shirt motto says. And our system might be too complex. We might be trying to layer in too much. 

And Colby, who was a teacher, principal, and superintendent, is aware of that. Here he is again with another answer that tries to better address the complexities for what he sees as the purpose of education:

Colby Gull: I think we have to help our students to gain some basic knowledge, some basic skills around academic areas. We want them to understand how to read and to ask good questions. And we want them to understand some mathematical things and solve problems. But we also want to give them opportunities to explore new ideas and new ways of thinking about things and to analyze their own thinking, and , ”Why is my opinion that? Maybe it should be something else?” But I think the purpose of all of that is to help students to be prepared to go out and reach their potential, and to do great things and challenge thinking and make things better for themselves and for the people around them.

Colby’s answers show his expertise. He is a guy that spends his life thinking about education and helping to train and retain teachers, and through all of his roles, he has had to deal with the bureaucracy and politics of education more intimately than most teachers ever do. What a teacher might value does not include the political nature of education

And this is where the conflict comes in. Something like the Road Trip Class, is my ideal education structure because it also reflects my values. But that does not work in public education. Teacher values and idealism often collapse against the layers of the education system’s bureaucracy. And it’s disheartening. So we end up with statements like Colby’s second answer. 

It covers a lot but it is also pretty generalized. It sounds like an institutional response to the question, or a mission statement - their purpose of education proclamation. To compare, here is the mission statement from the United States Department of education: 

“The United States Department of Education’s  mission is to promote student achievement and preparation for global competitiveness by fostering educational excellence and ensuring equal access.”

And here are a few more mission statements to compare to from districts across the country. Try to guess where they’re from:

“We ensure equitable access to a transformative educational experience grounded in the assets of our students, staff, and community.”

Here’s Another:

“To ensure high levels of learning for all students. To continuously develop our capacity to function as a collaborative culture.” 

One more:

“Our commitment is to prepare each student to become a career and college ready citizen. We will partner with families and the community to provide an engaging and challenging education in a safe and positive environment.”

Each of these mission statements, from the US Department of Education to districts from three different time zones across the US have similar and vague declarations. They feel like a fortune - “You are about to rediscover a lost connection to your past.” 

I get why the mission statements are vague. They are meant for a diverse population, and each family within that population should be able to see some value in these mission statements because public education is for everyone. 

But this is also where we can run into problems. The way I read “preparing each student to become a career and college ready citizen” is unique from what the administration, or students, or parents, or even other teachers may think. Do I think a person needs to avoid spaghetti straps to be a productive citizen? Not really, but I do think knowing how to work towards and meet a deadline would help.

So why does a vague purpose of education lead to teachers leaving the profession? Because many educators are finding that their interpretation of these missions and goals are in conflict with those of the administration, school board, or community. Values are not aligning. Which creates stress and sometimes forces a choice, do what they believe in and create conflict, or compromise their values and feel miserable.  

Every now and then there are times when idealism aligns within the classroom, which can create amazing moments. 

For Allison Lash, who was an art teacher in New York City that we heard from last episode, building community and learning in her mind require providing students with new experiences and opportunities.

Allison Lash: That's the kind of thing that I love bringing to kids like these little snippets and experiences that they might not get in the classroom. 

When her second graders were learning about rocks and gemstones from books, Allison organized a field trip to the Museum of Natural History because she knew they had an amazing collection.

Allison Lash: And I took all the kids out of the Bronx and into Manhattan. And as we're and I rev them up, like for the field trip, and I told them we're leaving the Bronx, we're leaving the Bronx because so many of them have never left the Bronx are there. So many of them never left like many of them lived in the projects, the building. And so they only traveled from the building to school a block away in the supermarket like this. These like four streets, basically. And the kids when we were driving over the water and on the bridge to get to Manhattan, they were all screaming when they said we're leaving the Bronx. So I love, I love being able to do that.

The ability to leave the space of the school often creates authentic learning experiences for students. These are experiences that connect students to their communities, which is a common value presented in school district mission statements. But there are limiting factors to leaving the space of the school. This is where idealism can be deflated because much of the modern purpose of education is now tied to keeping kids safe. This is why we practice having lockdowns. 

Lauren Schumacher spoke to me about how fear and wanting to keep kids safe impacts how we view the purpose of education.

Lauren Schumacher: And I think, sadly, with all the violence, you know, the school shootings situations, continue to make our country want to fence our buildings in and put doorbells on and all that which I understand. But in the same breath, we need to be removing them from the fences and getting them out into communities. I think that is more of the direction we need to move education.

I was really excited to talk to Lauren. I set up an interview station outside next to the Valley Bookstore in Jackson Hole, Wyoming. I didn’t meet Lauren first, I met her whole family. Her daughter saw my signs about teachers leaving and said, “My mom is going to want to talk to you” before she ran back from the direction she came to get her mom. 

Lauren was on vacation with her family. She is an administrator in Florida, and she had previously taught in both Missouri and Florida, but everything she talked about matched what teachers in my home state brought up.

In terms of the purpose of education, Lauren echoes the idea of wanting more experiential learning that gets kids into their communities.

Lauren Schumacher: I think we need to step away from the traditional brick and mortar, and get our kids out and learning. 

But, as Lauren pointed out earlier, with threats of violence in schools, education might be moving the other direction.

I hate this. We desperately need to be moving towards mobility and freedom and exploration - not away from it. When I reflect on that road trip class, there were elements of risk - absolutely - but we didn’t structure our educational experience around fear. Nor did threats feel looming like they do in modern education. 

When I answer my classroom door, I always have a pen in hand - it’s the sharpest object in my room, and I look through the window to check who is at my door, and what is in their hands before I let them in. Every time I answer the door, I play through a scenario of an active shooter. Our doors stay locked and shut because the statistics show that locked and shut doors save lives, and we value student lives. But this is the setting in which we are trying to teach exploration and wonder. It’s hard to have idealistic values and believe the purpose of education is for exploration in a locked room. So I have to return to the question, “What is the purpose of education?” Because if it’s to protect kids from violence and shootings, this is a heavy burden to ask teachers to carry. And the weight of it is becoming too much for many educators.

Such expectations make teachers feel like their job descriptions have shifted. And this is where more complexity comes in. Rather than being facilitators of learning, critical thinking, and exploration, teachers are having to do any number of things.

Ron Ruckman: I think that's the awesome part of teaching is that you get to be all those things, you know, but it puts a huge mental drain on teachers. 

This is Ron Ruckman, we heard a little bit from him in the second episode. Ron taught for 23 years and quit to run his construction business that he has with a friend. A business that does not require Ron to have to engage with much other than completing projects. Part of why Ron left had to do with a purpose of education that required too much from him.

Ron Ruckman:That's the problem. I think that for me that that has finally just kind of wore me out. The needs of kids beyond way beyond science, just the stuff I teach my subject matter. I do so much more. I spend so much time and it seems like I've spent more and more time as my teaching career has gone on. Kids seem to be a lot more needy of that kind of attention, and then we have one counselor. She can only do so much. She's got a line at her office most days, and it's like, you just have to wear all those hats to be the teacher, be the counselor, be the be mom and dad. That's the reality for some kids.

Ron recognizes that these kids need more than content. Mental health matters, even more so with the pandemic. In 2021, the CDC reported that nearly half of teenagers reported feeling sad or hopeless over the last year, and schools are a great resource for students who are struggling, but most school counselors are constantly busy because they have so many students needing help. Some of that overflow lands on teachers. For some teachers, who are not qualified or professional counselors, this is too emotionally taxing. So is this the purpose of education? To support the mental health of students? If it is, how does this match the structure of our education system? 

For Ron, he knows students need support, and he also believes that education needs to focus on things that are relevant to his content. 

 Ron Ruckman: It's important that we keep teaching critical thinking.

My district recently held a professional development day where local business people explained what they want our schools to prepare students for. One of the things they pointed to was the ability to think critically and problem solve. Another was the ability to value and communicate with other people. To actively engage in a civilized manner and recognize not everyone shares the same perspective. 

Ron Ruckman: If you're not willing to feel cognitive dissonance, if you're not willing to feel that uncomfortable feeling of what you thought, and then realizing that maybe that wasn't the truth. I had an uncle that always taught me you can learn something from everybody. And that includes every little fifth grader that I've ever had come through my room. Every single person I meet, I learned something from. That's what a teacher should be doing is teaching kids that you need to make your own opinion, but you need to consider all the data and all the opinions of others and put it all together and then make your own educated opinion.

Ron values critical thinkers that have a growth mindset. He does not want learning to stop for people once they graduate. For Ron, if the purpose of education is to grow an active and informed citizenry, which harkens back to what the founding fathers wanted of education, then learning should be lifelong. 

Ron Ruckman: It's okay to change what you believe in. When you consider more evidence, you know, and as you go through life, you learn more things and you see more things and, you know, and that I think a lot of people don't like that. We can't just be stuck in one way of thinking all of our life, otherwise, you're just gonna be very unhappy.

So through science, Ron was helping students think critically and communicate with one another and form opinions all while addressing students’ other needs - which ended up wearing him out by the time he left his job. For Ron, the purpose of education isn’t finite,  and it became too much for him to continue. 

One last thing about Ron. When considering the purpose of education, there is some speculation that teachers are using education as a place to spew a political agenda. Ron is adamant that this is incorrect.

Ron Ruckman: Well, and that's part of the part of my, just kind of my disgust with the public right now is the image of teachers being, you know, we're out there to indoctrinate kids or whatever that bullshit is. And I'm sorry to use that word, but that it is, it's bullshit. That one will get me fired up more than anything else, you know, we're there to just teach them about the subjects that, you know, that we're in, you know, and we're not out there to indoctrinate.

No teacher that I spoke with or know of is actively trying to indoctrinate students. That is not the purpose of education in their minds. Some teachers even joked that they wished they could indoctrinate students - then maybe students would do their homework and turn things in on time. But this fear of indoctrination from non-educators is a problem, making it more difficult to define the purpose of education simply.

In my ideal for education, I get to act as a facilitator of curiosity. I help students explore their interests by guiding them towards relevant resources, and I feel like it’s my job to not be offended. I want students to be able to ask honest questions about whatever they’re interested in. And at no point will I stop a curious student and say, “I’m sorry, you cannot address that in this room. This room is for English content only.” or “That does not fit within our mission statement.” 

I want to be able to stray from content in my classroom, but it does not match a view of education that is content specific and easily measured. There seems to be a fear that anything outside of a content area is indoctrination or a deviant plot to warp the minds of children - muwahahaha. It’s asinine and disregards the fact that expecting teachers to only teach content and nothing more is missing a big part of what education is.

Ron Ruckman: I think the expectation, honestly, is that that's all you do is teach your subject, and that's all you should ever, you know, and what they don't realize is, these kids need so much more. And I think there's so much more on our plate as a teacher than what the public thinks is there or even expects us to do, but we don't have a choice. We, you know, we would have, you know, we'd have no, we'd have utter chaos. You know, if we didn't wear all those hats

Going into a classroom and only trying to teach content, while addressing nothing else, rarely works. This is why guest speakers sometimes flounder - they assume their expertise is enough to engage students - and they get eaten alive.

But the focus on content can’t be dismissed. Standards and standardized assessments are a constant quality of modern education. Is this what we value? Content that will be assessed on a standardized assessment? In reality, assessments are the main measurable expectations that are placed onto schools. And for many teachers, if the purpose of education is to only have students do well on a test, then that is enough of a reason to quit teaching.

Teachers are having to balance teaching content that students will be tested on with their values and ideas about the social, emotional or cultural things that are harder to measure but necessary for a well-functioning classroom. And having to be responsible for a list of ambiguous immeasurables is draining and pushing teachers out.

Ron Ruckman: I mean, now we are basically caretakers of those kids. 

We met Rachael Esh last episode, she left teaching to write children's books, and she felt like the foundation of her teaching experience was based on relationships: 

Rachaeel Esh: And even when you learn when you go into teaching, you know this. The number one thing they teach you is relationships, build relationships, don't worry about the content until you have the relationships because we know they're not going to listen to you if they don't respect you or care about you to get that other information. So you've got to build that. You've got to have your expectations.The purpose of education, I mean, it's just, it's all encompassing. Raising a kid takes a community and I feel like teachers are a big part of that community.

Rachael wants to foster kindness and curiosity and empathy. This sounds like it would fit the tenets from the mission statements from earlier, but what stands out to me is her point that content is secondary. Many teachers recognize that without a relationship, it’s very difficult to teach any sort of content. Relationships are part of what made that road trip class so successful. Relationships are what those guest speakers are lacking. I’ve even heard kids specifically say, they will refuse to do work or try to learn from a teacher they don’t like. So to get to content, some of these other things are having to be addressed, which adds to what teachers are already doing and are hard to measure or track.

There are also a few differing views on what makes up content. Several teachers drew a line between content tied to learning and exploration and content for standardized assessments. 

Rachael Esh: So just being like, hey, good job on all your hard work. We're number one for our scores again, and it's like, I don't care. And so if that's what we're celebrating, I don't really want to work here. Because that's not what's important to me. And so like, how about we celebrate this the teacher that tried a new lesson and fell on their face? Like Good job family? Because that's what we teach our kids. But do we let our teachers fail? No. So I just don't agree with it.

Rachael wanted to teach in a space that allowed for teachers to experiment in their classrooms. To try things and fail, but she felt like the test scores were what her district valued. They prioritized high scores over experiences and what Rachael thought of as authentic learning. 

I understand this. Getting a taste of a structure like the road trip class that allowed for authentic learning because it was exploration based makes it really hard to go back to prioritizing high scores.

Rachael Esh:  I cannot stand another freakin meeting talking about. But does the standard say that? What does modeling mean? What does this mean? I don't care. I'm sorry, I don't need to break down the exact definition of a word in order to teach the general concept. And I am going to make time to teach what these kids really need to know in life, which is not that.

The focus on standards hasn’t always been the norm. As I said earlier, education has shifted its focus as our country's values have shifted. 

And part of the confusion could have to do with modern education holding onto outdated values for   public education. Values that don’t match a modern world or modern ideals. Though that may be true, teachers are still having to work in this environment that lacks clear objectives. This is stressful. 

We often hear, just do what’s best for kids when it feels like bureaucracy is getting heavy. But what I think is best for kids might include calling them by their chosen name, holding them accountable for their actions, pushing them to reach high expectations, or providing them with various pieces of text that give unique perspectives. 

These might sound great, but for each of the examples I just listed, I have had a situation where a parent, student, administrator, or fellow teacher disagreed with me to the point that we needed to have a meeting about our perspectives. And the reality is, I can’t say who is right or wrong based on our educational system, there’s no clear answer. For many teachers, having to defend why, in their professional opinion, their view of education is valid, is just not worth it. And being accosted by parents or administrators or school boards gets old really quickly.

Ron  talked about the lasting impact of these conflicts:

Ron Ruckman: Yeah, it's scary to me still, I mean, parents, parents, I, when I have parents get in my face, I hate it even now. And most of the time, and well, like, I would say, 99% of the time parent goes away happy. And I sit there and dwell on it for the next five days, you know, and it totally wrecks my whole mental state for a long time. You know, and I just don't think parents realize, you know, they come in, and they're fired up, because they hear one story from their kid, and then they come in, and they're all fired up, and they leave and they're, they're fine. But I've, you know, it's, it's almost like, you know, you're almost traumatized by it for a little bit, you know, and that I know, that sounds dumb, but that, that is something that just kind of happens, you know, and I feel like because I like to make everybody I'm kind of a people pleaser, you know, I like everybody to be happy with me all the time.  

Every teacher I know has a getting chewed out story - when a parent cornered and then screamed at them in their own classroom or demanded retribution because they refused to believe their child would ever lie to them so the teacher must be lying. These moments leave scars And this shows that even if there isn’t a shared view for the purpose of education, there might be a consensus that devalues teachers making it acceptable to treat them this way. 

And when it comes to making changes to keep teachers, I don’t know what the answer is. But I know that valuing teachers and education would help. Because I do know that a lot of teachers that left education love teaching, but many of them didn’t feel like they or their work were valued. 

I also know that education is for students. So to identify what the purpose of education should be, it might be worth asking  students what they need? What do they value?

Jonah Zeimens: I feel like education has lost real world application in a lot of things. 

This is Jonah Zeimans. Jonah was a student of mine a few years ago. He took my college level English course, and we’ve stayed in contact since. Jonah is currently going to college to become an Ag teacher. He was a high achieving student. He was involved with FFA at a national level. He even spoke at graduation. And with all of these accolades, he still wishes his high school experience could have been a little different. 

Jonah Zeimens: I wish it was a lot more individualized. What I don't love about our school system right now is that we're so standardized and trying to get everyone to meet the same requirements every step of the way. And I can understand maybe while students are younger, the importance of that, but once folks start figuring out what they want to do with their life a little bit more, it'd be nice to have a little bit more experimentation there. I think about this a lot going, the ag education, I would have loved to have taken more ag classes while in high school. 

Jonah hit on an issue many teachers talked about in frustration with standards and standardized tests. Students value individualization. With individualization comes exploration and the ability to get excited about their futures. 

Teachers love fostering this work, and if we look back to the mission statements from earlier, individualized instruction meets several of their requirements. But this is not  feasible in our current approach to education. Even if teachers want to create individualized instruction, they often run into the issue of navigating standards, or having time, or managing huge classes.

But what Jonah is saying is an ideal. I would get behind a purpose of education that focused on students’ individual goals, and I know of a lot of teachers that would do the same.. But a few things would have to change to make this approach feasible and not burn teachers out.  Teachers would need smaller class sizes. Building in-depth individualized learning plans for 150 students isn’t practical or healthy. So if we value teacher well-being and individualized learning, education needs funding for more teachers and more facilities so classes can be smaller. That would be a start to reaching a consensus on what education  is for. 

I spoke with another recent graduate about the same issues. Landon Trujillo was a wrestler of mine. I coached with his dad for several years, and when Landon graduated he gave me a picture from state wrestling. Someone caught the moment when Landon melted into my chest right after he won the state championship. The picture frame says family on it. It’s on my desk as I work on this podcast.

Landon didn’t love the structure of school. 

Landon Trujillo: Um, I'm a pretty social person. So I really liked the social aspect. And just a bunch of friends there people to talk to all the time. Some things I didn't like is like, how, by the book, everything is. 90% of teachers teach the same, in my opinion. It's just work for a grade, and then get your grades and that's pretty much it.

I can see why Landon thinks education is about getting a good grade. As a teacher, this is disheartening. When working towards standards is the priority, the things that foster the joy of learning feel like they get pushed aside. Grades become more valuable than experiences or individualized instruction. These are the times when I look back to that road trip class I told you about and think about how far away I am from that wonderfully structured course. From the things I value as a teacher. From being in a setting with a shared purpose - to explore and not be assholes. 

If teachers do not think what they do has purpose, it will be hard to keep them in a job. Part of what gives teachers purpose is autonomy and trust and an ability to explore authentic learning experiences. Things that everyone I spoke with values. But teachers are having to prioritize things that are considered measurable.

Assessments and standards are used as tools of measurement, but the things I and many teachers value are hard to measure. I could not measure the impact that roadtrip class had on students in any tangible way, but I know it had an impact. I can’t measure my relationships, and if I tried, they would feel superficial. This is why some education feels superficial, because it values measurement over authenticity.

And teachers are leaving this system, but our country can keep teachers if we shift our values to what teachers and students already value, which does not include high stakes testing or standardization.

Next time, we will take a look at the impact standardization and high stakes testing have on the classroom, and how this impact plays a role in teachers’ decisions to leave education.

Chris Rothfuss: They switched to a standards oriented approach where they were targeting competency and individual standards as their evaluative structure for student success, as opposed to a grading format. And I think that's a more sophisticated and more thoughtful approach to evaluating educational needs and educational accomplishment.  

That will be next time on Those Who Can’t Teach Anymore. Thank you for listening. Be sure to subscribe to our podcast, leave a review, and share episodes with everyone you can think of.

This episode was produced by me, Charles Fournier. It was edited by Melodie Edwards. Other editing help came from Noa Greenspan, Sarah-Ann Leverette, and Jennica Fournier. Voice Acting by Chris and Haylee Brayton, Britni Shipman, and Ben Zoller. Our theme song is by Julian Saporiti. Road Trip songs were performed  by the Great American Roadtrip class of 2016. All other music can be found on our website. A special thanks to Elizabeth Smith, Juan Laden, Colby Gull, Allison Lash, Lauren Schumacker, Ron Ruckman, Jonah Zeimans, Landon Trujillo, Gary Martin, Caskey Russell, Jaye Wacker, Jennica Fournier, Shane Atkinson, Lindsey Freeman, Christy Chadwick, and Rachael Esh for taking time to sit down and chat with me. If you are interested in hearing more about Rachel Esh and her books, check out our instagram page @thosewhocantteachanymore to see a video of her.  This podcast is funded in part by the Fund for Teachers Fellowship.

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