In the third episode of a mini-series on international order, Darren is joined by Amy King, an Associate Professor at the Australian National University, to discuss China. It is now cliché to say that China is having a major impact on the current order and its trajectory, but there is little agreement on what that impact is and how far it might go.
Darren has taken a keen interest in this question in his academic research, co-authoring a paper titled “China and the logic of illiberal hegemony” with John Ikenberry that was published in 2023. The journal’s editors subsequently invited two scholars to write critiques, one of those being Amy King.
Darren opens by seeking Amy’s views on whether the “post-Cold War order” is a useful starting point to discuss China’s influence, and whether she agrees with US Secretary of State Blinken that that this particular order is at an end. They then turn to Darren’s paper, with Darren describing his model of “illiberal hegemony”, where China’s approach to order-building is partially extrapolated from its domestic models of political order and economic organisation. Amy has multiple disagreements both with the model and its implications, which makes for an engaging back-and-forth.
This is another long and wonkish conversation, but returns continuously to practical questions, such what Australian diplomats might say when defending the (old) order to their colleagues across the region.
Australia in the World is written, hosted, and produced by Darren Lim, with research and editing this episode by Corbin Duncan and theme music composed by Rory Stenning.
Relevant links
Amy King (bio): https://amykingonline.com/
Darren Lim and John Ikenberry, “China and the logic of illiberal hegemony”, Security Studies: (ungated) https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=4244377 || (gated) https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/09636412.2023.2178963
Amy King, “The Collective Logic of (Chinese) Hegemonic Order”, Security Studies: (ungated) https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/09636412.2023.2253148
Matthew Stephen, “China and the Limits of Hypothetical Hegemony”, Security Studies: (ungated) https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/09636412.2023.2259801
Darren Lim and John Ikenberry, “China and Hegemony: An Exchange – The Authors Reply”, Security Studies (gated, contact Darren for a copy): https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/09636412.2023.2252735
Richard Flanagan, “Question 7” (novel): https://www.penguin.com.au/books/question-7-9781761343452
Sam Sachdeva, “The China tightrope: Navigating New Zealand's relationship with a world superpower: https://www.allenandunwin.co.nz/browse/book/Sam-Sachdeva-China-Tightrope-9781991006172/
Ep. 128: Sols vote; nests of spies? growing AUKUS? Palestinian statehood?
Ep. 126: The international economic order—Past, present, and future
Ep. 125: Wang Yi visits Australia
Ep. 124: Ukraine, Gaza, and international order
Ep. 123: ASEAN in Melbourne
Ep. 122: Indonesia, before and after the election
Ep. 120: Where to from ”stabilisation” in Australia-China relations?
Ep. 121: Reviewing 2023; speculating about 2024
Ep. 119: When domestic policy is foreign policy (and the PM’s travels)
Ep. 118: A US perspective on Australia’s defence policy
Ep. 117: Canada-India (emergency episode)
Ep. 116: Australia’s international development policy
Ep. 115: The domestic politics of AUKUS and Pacific security pacts
Ep. 114: And we’re back. Australia-China; US-China
Allan Gyngell and Australia in the world
Ep. 112: Cold War 2?
Ep. 111: AUKUS plans; India; red alerts
Ep. 110: Ukraine, one year on
Ep. 109: Balloons; FM’s UK speech; France 2+2; DM on sovereignty
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