Between Us: A Psychotherapy Podcast

Episode 60: Recognition, In Real Life

Jessica Benjamin joins host John Totten for our season finale. In a wide-ranging conversation [outlined below], the renowned psychoanalyst and theorist reflects on her radical upbringing, the development of recognition theory, and the feminist lens through which she examines our persistent social dilemmas. Why does more civilization seem to generate more problems? Dr. Benjamin’s answer diverges from Freud’s, and her concept of repair exposes how often conformity is entangled with domination. From mundane conventions like parenting roles to the horrors of war and genocide, her concepts illuminate pathways of transformation through multiplicity, challenging the belief that “only one can live.” She proposes that feminism offers a way forward in the clinic and society: a chance to move beyond rigid binaries into “The Third”- a space of mutual recognition, but only if we are first willing to confront the ways we’ve been getting it wrong. ——————————— 1. Biography and Early Curiosities - 13:21 2. Formation of Recognition Theory- 20:25 3. Feminism and Family Roles- 27:30 4. Oedipus and Gender Binaries- 30:54 5. Reversal and Bourgeois Feminism- 37:42 6. Response to Critiques-42:44 7. Clinical Vignettes of Recognition- 48:35 8. Crossing the Bridge of Difference-54:25 9. The Third, Breakdown, and Repair- 56:05 10. Survivalism and Conflict Resolution- 66:30 11. Infant Studies and Acknowledgement- 74:14 12. Destruction and Play-79:30 13. Escalation and Unconscious Guilt- 86:54 14. Capitalism and Supremacy- 91:00 16. Hope- 99:30 ———————————— Produced by John Totten and Mason Neely Music by Mason Neely Research Assistant: Rose Bergdoll Website: www.betweenuspodcast.com Contact: betweenuspodcast@gmail.com Instagram: www.instagram.com/betweenuspod Facebook: www.facebook.com/betweenuspodcast YouTube: www.youtube.com/channel/UC4pPUTf_wRjNxHcCsFJoSSQ

Episode 59: Bad Faith Alone

Lara Sheehi was doing her job as a professor of clinical psychology when her criticism of Israel catapulted her into uninvited infamy. Bad faith accusations of antisemitism, reliant on obfuscating political criticism with bigotry led to her investigation while reports from news outlets led to her being disinvited from speaking engagements, stalked, and protested. Despite a letter of support from Jewish colleagues that included giants in the field of psychoanalysis, the controversy split the field in two- those who knew her compassionate work on behalf of the oppressed and those who scapegoated her as a danger to psychoanalytic innocence. It is this myth of purity that shapes Lara’s theory and resistance to the veil of mutuality and dialogue, which she contends too often obstructs the very nature of our unequal material realities. Sheehi challenges us to be vigilant towards misrecognition, the not-so-unconscious ways in which we commit to logics of oppression, especially those of us who identify as healers. || Produced by John Totten and Mason Neely || Music by Mason Neely || Research Assistant: Rose Bergdoll || Website: www.betweenuspodcast.com || Contact: betweenuspodcast@gmail.com || Instagram: www.instagram.com/betweenuspod || Facebook: www.facebook.com/betweenuspodcast || YouTube: www.youtube.com/channel/UC4pPUTf_wRjNxHcCsFJoSSQ

Episode 58: This Machine Kills Fascism

Sue Grand joins us for a conversation about hatred and totalitarianism. A psychoanalyst who has spent decades studying trauma and the ways evil reproduces across history, Grand is interested in how introspection might protect us and others from our own perpetrator fragments. She challenges the assumption that traumatized people victimize others—most do not. The regeneration of harm, she argues, arises from a complex interplay between psychological defenses and social structures such as gender binaries and racialization. But how do everyday people get caught up in the fevered swell of fascist times? Can psychotherapy be antifascist? Grand examines the erotic lure of fascism, while John and Mason explore Deleuze and Guattari’s provocative claim that, on some level, we all desire it. || Produced by John Totten and Mason Neely || Music by Mason Neely || Research Assistant: Rose Bergdoll || Website: www.betweenuspodcast.com || Contact: betweenuspodcast@gmail.com || Instagram: www.instagram.com/betweenuspod || Facebook: www.facebook.com/betweenuspodcast || YouTube: www.youtube.com/channel/UC4pPUTf_wRjNxHcCsFJoSSQ

Episode 57: What's Mine Is Yours

Tony Bass is less concerned with building psychological metatheories than with how theory comes alive in the consulting room. From the earliest days of the Relational movement, he worked alongside Stephen Mitchell and others to shape a vision of treatment grounded in mutual influence, drawing inspiration from Ferenczi’s dialogue of unconsciouses—an approach Bass experiences as intuitive and “not so meta.” But whose unconscious is it, anyway? For Tony, the analytic encounter always points to interplay: between patient and analyst, healer and healed. In his view, psychotherapy is not the application of a fixed model but an ongoing improvisation, in which each subjectivity becomes instrumental to the unfolding of new meanings and unexpected revelations of both similarity and difference. Produced by John Totten and Mason Neely Music by Mason Neely Research Assistant: Rose Bergdoll Website: www.betweenuspodcast.com Contact: betweenuspodcast@gmail.com Instagram: www.instagram.com/betweenuspod Facebook: www.facebook.com/betweenuspodcast YouTube: www.youtube.com/channel/UC4pPUTf_wRjNxHcCsFJoSSQ

Episode 56: Reclaiming the Relational

Roy Barsness returns to the show to discuss his new book, which establishes a psychodynamic model of clinical supervision. Steeped in relational psychoanalytic values, this approach offers not only a new way of thinking about supervision, but also a recapitulation of how this theory informs practice in the treatment room—and life in general. By considering each case a muse for both therapist and supervisor, Barsness invites emergent subjectivities into each relationship. Supervision becomes the framework for a path of encounter, with contemporary figures such as Mitchell and Benjamin lighting the way. Roy emphasizes the personal journey of the therapist as crucial to this modality, while Mason reflects with John on his own journey home and the persistent question of to whom we truly belong. Produced by John Totten and Mason Neely Music by Mason Neely Research Assistant: Rose Bergdoll Website: www.betweenuspodcast.com Contact: betweenuspodcast@gmail.com Instagram: www.instagram.com/betweenuspod Facebook: www.facebook.com/betweenuspodcast YouTube: www.youtube.com/channel/UC4pPUTf_wRjNxHcCsFJoSSQ