The Wayfinder Podcast - Yellow Edge | Performance Architects - Canberra Australia

E06 - Donna Purcell & the Inclusive Workplace Revolution

“I think that we're lagging behind because there is still a lack of awareness of what people with disability can do when it comes to work. I think there's still a lot of stereotyping and a lot of assumptions made about what people can and can't do; and I I'd like to encourage listeners to this podcast to try to think beyond the person's disability and always think about people's skills, their abilities and what people can do as opposed to thinking well, because you've got a disability you can't.” Donna Purcell In this episode, Scarlet and Andrew Simon speak with Churchill Fellow, Donna Purcell who’s journey is a testament to the power of inclusion and the potential for change in the employment landscape for people with disabilities. While representing the Australian Network on Disability at a global forum in Geneva, Donna embarked on a mission to gather the world's best practices for fostering workplace diversity. From visiting Microsoft in Seattle to exploring initiatives in New York, London, France, and Switzerland, Purcell discovered innovative strategies that champion inclusivity. Her key insights revolve around strong leadership, inclusive policies, and the critical role of tracking progress to drive meaningful change. Purcell's work culminates in a call to action for Australian leaders and organisations to embrace these strategies, demonstrating that with the right approach, we can create workplaces where everyone, regardless of disability, has the opportunity to thrive. Her advocacy highlights the importance of customising roles and the power of a welcoming recruitment message, showcasing a future where diversity is not just accepted but celebrated. Listen to more episodes Podcast Partner EPISODE 6: TRANSCRIPT - TIM MCLENNANYellow Edge: Yellow Edge in association with the Winston Churchill Trust proudly presents the Wayfinder podcast. In this series, we ask high performing individuals how they plotted the path to success. Our guests are all Churchill Fellows. Having been provided the opportunity by the Churchill Trust to research their chosen field internationally, the Wayfinder explores the often winding path of how these fellows came to their professions and catalogs, the trials and tribulations faced along the way.And now your host, Scarlet Bennett.Scarlet Bennett: Welcome to the Wayfinder Podcast. I'm Scarlet Bennett, and with me today is Tim McLennan. Tim is a clinical rehabilitation engineer working with innovative assistive technology at the Fiona Stanley Hospital in Perth, in WA, Western Australia. Tim, welcome. Thank you for joining us today. Tim McLennan: Thank you for having me.Scarlet Bennett: Your eyes were open to the use of assistive technology in a very personal way. Tell us about that experience. Tim McLennan: Umm, yes. So when I was a new grad as an electrical engineer not knowing anything about the world of assistive technology or disability, I was flying gliders as a hobby in the wheat belt of Western Australia.And a storm front that was a little unexpected came in and I didn't get back to the airfield in time. Ended up crash-landing not far from the airfield, but due to that crash, experienced a spinal cord injury and was unable to walk. So the, the, the paralysis that occurred at the time due to the, the swelling and everything meant that I was essentially paralyzed from the waist down.I got shipped off to a hospital and was unfortunately told I need to learn from that stage of what life was going to be like in a wheelchair from that point. I was very fortunate to be able to regain through a lot of rehabilitation about eight months of working with the teams at, at the then Royal Perth at Shenton Park Hospital, regaining the vast majority of my function back again.So I am able to independently walk again, but that was eight months of, of going from not being able to move to being able to get into a wheelchair to be able to, get up onto crutches and, and then eventually one crutch and, and, and get rid of it. You know, just have some orthotics on my feet cause they haven't fully recovered.And so I can largely go about my business as I did before, just with a little bit of assistive technology strapped to my ankles. Scarlet Bennett: That's really interesting. And we, these experiences change us, don't they? What, what did you learn what changed for you as a result of this experience? Tim McLennan: Well, yeah, it was a like most people who have experienced catastrophic injuries, it's a major point in your life.Everything changes, all your assumptions get thrown out the window of, of what tomorrow's going to be like. But there does seem to be a, a sort of a major pivotal role when people experience these of either overloaded and, and really struggled with life from that point, or it becomes such a driving force for motivation and an ability to see new potentials and options.Unfortunately I did get to see that and it changed my whole career path. I, I, I realized that my engineering skills could be better put to use in the world of rehabilitation, engineering and, and, and assistive technology to have a really meaningful impact on helping people who have been in unfortunate situations to be able to regain losses that may have been no fault of their own.Umm, yeah. Scarlet Bennett: It's absolutely fascinating, isn't it? Tim, for listeners who don't understand the terminology, what is 'assistive technology?' Tim McLennan: Yeah. Well I like to say that assistive technology is a bit of a tautology in the sense that any technology has been developed to assist a person or a process. But the actual term 'assistive technology' is usually used in relation to devices to assist a person with a disability, to try and regain some of their lost function or abilities, and ideally restore independence so that people who have suffered a loss due to illness or injury aren't relying on carers or friends or families to do whatever activities they wish to do. The most common thought that sort of people associate with assistive technology, the big obvious things like wheelchairs, prosthetic limbs, communication devices. However, assistive technology can become common enough and no longer thought of as a disability product and sometimes referred to as mainstream. And, and glasses for sight correction are a great example of this. An assistive technology to, you know, to improve sight. Scarlet Bennett: That makes sense. So it's actually more, it's more common than, than people realize. Tim McLennan: Absolutely. Yes. And basically, there's many types of assistive technology there as there are things that we as humans want to do.Scarlet Bennett: Can you give us some examples, Tim, of the type of technology that's out there that people might not have heard of? You know, we're familiar with wheelchairs and, and spectacles and some of these other things. But what else is out there that, that might really interest people? Tim McLennan: Absolutely. There's, there's sort of some really big ones that with the rapid changes of technology, I think are going to become fruitful in the, in the near future, things that seemed very sci-fi not so long ago. But we're, we're starting to see what we, we'd hoped in terms of the extension from wheelchairs to be like stair climbing chairs. You don't have to have the environment changed to suit the wheelchairs. Things like exoskeletons, so people can strap on a device to restore their ability to walk, or even surgically implantable stimulation to restore paralysis without needing any external devices.And along those lines, there's even technology in the sense being driven from another angle, which is the ability to improve human capability who may have not experienced any loss in the first place and, and that one is brain computer interfaces. So this is a, a where an electronic device is worn on the head or implanted into someone's skull that can read the electrical signals of your brain and interpret them, interpret them as your thoughts or intended commands.So this is, this research has been happening for a while, but it's improving rapidly at the moment. There'll be a major life change for anyone with a significant physical disability or experiencing what's called 'Locked-in Syndrome' where you can think and comprehend and, and, and most likely see what's going on, but have no ability to move or communicate your thoughts or feelings.And in that scenario, having an electronic device, being able to read your mind and typing what you want onto a screen or typing out an email or controlling the device, would open up so many opportunities. But even for someone without a disability, the ability to speed up rather than using your two fingers on a jumbled keyboard or multitask at the speed of your, your rapid thought switching, will have so many applications to improve everybody's capabilities.But yeah, hopefully it helps along with those most at need and bring them up at the same time. Scarlet Bennett: That's extraordinary. And it is very sci-fi, isn't it? It's, it seems like there's almost no end to what it can do. Tim McLennan: Absolutely. Scarlet Bennett: Tim, you work as part of a rehabilitation multidisciplinary team. What exactly is your role and how would you contribute in a scenario like this?Tim McLennan: Yeah, so my, my job role is termed 'rehabilitation engineer,' which is not a common role, I'm unfortunate that the Western Australian Department of Health has had the foresight to foster this kind of role in the, in the hospital settings. But we work alongside all your standard allied health, your speech therapists, your occupational therapists, physiotherapists and allied health team obviously works with, with the doctors and nurses in rehabilitating people, getting them out of hospital and regain their independence as much as possible.So everybody in the multi, multidiscipline team is there cause of their diverse skills and abilities and perspective to try and come up with a holistic solution, cause you can't fix a problem if you don't know all the issues coming from every, every direction. And so a rehabilitation engineer will certainly help out with any of the technical aspects.We often, umm, there'll be an idea of what the team will want to try and achieve, but to physically make something construct it, we've got access to all the, the construction tools, workshops, etcetera, the materials, we can build things, we can use electronic means for changing someone's ability, say if they've got a small amount of movement in their hand, that can be used to control an electronic device and then that electronic device can be used to do multiple other functions to yeah, to regain sort of the activities that person wants to be able to do independently. Scarlet Bennett: It sounds like each case is quite tailored to the individual?Tim McLennan: Absolutely. There are often sort of diagnoses or categories of injuries that a certain device will help in that area but the everybody's journey and and abilities are different. Everybody's preferences are different so usually there needs to be some form of for, for the best outcome, some form of customization or yeah or personalization of assistive technology Scarlet Bennett: Mm that makes perfect sense. Are you able, without breaching confidentiality obviously, but are you able to share a case study of of of how this works and what it might look like? Tim McLennan: I guess one of the the the typical scenarios we would see and is a significant percentage of our caseload would be assisting people with motor neurons disease. And this is a debilitating illness that currently isn't a cure. There aren't even that many solutions to even slow down the progress at this point. But this is where people start losing physical function usually in the extremities of the limbs and then and slowly so you might find it difficult to walk and then the legs become too weak to be able to carry you. You might find then a restriction in finger ability, so you can move your arm but not your fine motor of your fingers. And then that slowly, essentially shrinks back into only having the ability to move your head and then- since that I mean after that just looking about. Often it involves a loss of speech as well. So you've got someone who's still got the full ability to think and feel and see and hear and experience everything but the inability to to control. So we try and support these people. And as their condition or symptoms progress we would initially look at-- with the loss of hand function, we'd find alternative ways of using a phone. So instead of a touchscreen using a a mouse for example to to access the phone and tablet so you can still be able to do email still call people those kinda things. With the loss of limb, like arm function we would be able to use the head So as you move your head left right up and down that would be controlling the mouse on the screen. With the loss of voice, you obviously need programs on the devices that you're using to have alternative ways of typing out what you want to say. And quick access methods of being able to say phrases to try and speed up that ability to get your thoughts out into speech. And then the all the other things that go along-- things like your ability to control the position in your wheelchair or your bed, for comfort. The ability to turn on lights, and turn them off, fans, air conditioning, those kind of things. So luckily electronic devices nowadays can give us more and more access to those kind of things. So if we can tailor the access of being able to control those devices for the person then that will go a long way to helping us maintain their independence as much as possible. Scarlet Bennett: Thank you. That's really fascinating. I understand that the open source community contributes to solutions. Can you explain a little bit about how that works?Tim McLennan: Yeah absolutely. This is something that's sort of in in my heart that I'd like to to to push further. The open source as a concept is basically freedom of information in the sense of if there are solutions to problems in the world, ideally it would make sense to make those solutions and information freely available to everybody. So that if I manage to create a nice device that's is useful for someone here, someone in the other side of the planet isn't going to get my personal help if I can convey that information across and get somebody over there to be able to help and hopefully that information or or solution can can reach many many more people. So open source is the the publishing of information of instructions, of programming code, of examples of how problems can be solved. And in the disability sector I think it's it's really important because there are very few commercial opportunities. The disability market is very small. There's a small number of people that can benefit from this specific device. And so often it doesn't make a lot of sense to hold onto that information make a commercial solution and try and sell it anywhere else. And often it's going to people who have got the least amount of resources to be able to purchase these devices. So there is a couple of great movements. One I'd love to give a shout out to is the Makers Making Change which is a Canadian organization, And basically wherever they can if there's a way of saving 3D models because a lot of devices are are little physical devices that can be 3D printed. If you can make that solution, save it to the web, someone on the other side of the world can download that solution it print on their 3D printer and have the exact same device available to them for very very low cost. Scarlet Bennett: That's brilliant isn't it? Tim McLennan: Yeah Scarlet Bennett: In 2016 you were awarded a fellowship with the Winston Churchill Trust. What motivated you to apply for your fellowship?Tim McLennan: Umm that was thanks to my wife who also worked in the the health industry and was aware of this opportunity. But she basically made me realize that I'm privileged enough to be in this position to be able to help as many people as we can, but in a very niche area that there aren't a lot of either opportunities to learn, or share, in the small community of rehabilitation engineering within Perth. So-- and over time technology changes so rapidly such that if you aren't keeping up to date constantly yeah, you're working with with older tech and and there's most likely better solutions available. So the Churchill Fellowship was an amazing opportunity to be able to go overseas, choose my path, find the the people who are working in similar areas, or new areas that we don't have the resources to work in here. To be able to connect with them, learn from them, along the lines of that open source, thought of sharing information, sharing resources on on trying to work on problems, and and make the world a better place as quickly as possible Scarlet Bennett: And how has the project shaped the work you do now if at all? Tim McLennan: It it's it's shaped it greatly. I've I've had the I guess the confidence and the the credibility to be able to reach out locally make some great collaborations with universities here. I think collaboration between the resources of universities and hospitals is a really important way of being able to progress assistive technology. And I saw that happening quite well in in places like England and Canada, and the US So being able to to bring that information back and try and replicate similar things here has been a big one. And just the ability to know that there are other people solving similar problems that I can now contact and say 'we've got this new problem have you come across anything like it? What do you...' and have a brainstorm together. Scarlet Bennett: And so it really tapped you into global best practice at the time and and helped you to build that broader network. Tim McLennan: Absolutely. Scarlet Bennett: Yeah fantastic. And and you've recently won an Impact Grant through the Churchill Trust. What is this and what are you doing with it? Tim McLennan: Yes. So this is another fantastic opportunity and I've gotta thank The Trust again for this. Where I guess the Churchill Trust had recently it had the issue where a lot of their fellows that they wanted to award couldn't travel overseas and and do that great experience that I managed to do just before COVID hit. However, they still wanted to be able to make a difference in an impact in Australia and wanted to work out how they could best do that. And decided to award some grants to returned fellows who have come back with an idea and are struggling to implement it. So my project, which I've been working on for a little while and having a bit of issues finding the funding for internally, is to try and bridge the gap that we currently have between discharge from hospital and people returning back into the community.So obviously once somebody is medically stable, we need to free up hospital beds. So the idea is to get people out of hospital and returned home as quick as possible. But, without the appropriate assistive technology that's been trialed, tested and installed in the person's house, usually people are discharged home and are quite reliant on 24-hour care, or at least lots of paid care or the burden falls onto the family and friends who are living with them.Or there's no appropriate places or not enough appropriate places to be discharged to, and that's often holding up hospital beds that could be better utilized. So my plan is to create a, what I'm calling, a technology for independence demonstration environment. And this is going to be like a, a mini smart home essentially.So people, whilst this are still in inpatient, will be able to use this room, pretend that they're at home, be able to go about their, their daily activities and see if they're able to make make food for themselves in the kitchen. Are they able to get in and out of bed? Are they able to go to the bathroom and, and, and toilet on their own?And basically have a, a one-stop shop where we have as much assistive technology, smart home type features in this room so people can see what is actually available and have a chance to use it to say, yes, this is gonna work for me, or this doesn't work and we can come up with a solution so that they have an idea of, of how their life can be assisted when going back into the community before they get there and don't have that, that option.Scarlet Bennett: That sounds like a really, really valuable thing to offer people. I'm wondering now, you know, as you're saying that, I'm wondering how we're tracking in Australia compared to what's being done around the rest of the world. Tim McLennan: Yeah. I guess that was one of the things that came out of my Churchill Fellowship was the, I guess the good news story that, that in Australia we are very fortunate to have quite a good healthcare system. With the emergence of the NDIS, which was starting up around the time when I had my Churchill Fellowship. That's also another fantastic opportunity that many in the rest of the world don't get in terms of funding for a much broader sense of, of assistive technology and, and services that a lot of people, even in some of the other Western worlds don't get access to.But I guess like in every scenario there are certain areas that, that we could, we, we could improve in. And because everybody's journey's different, it's really difficult for these systems to be able to cater for everyone perfectly. But, I think we've got a, on average, a fairly good access to good and high level technology.And we are building the services to be able to have a much better quality of life for people who, who need it. But like everything, there'll be hiccups along the way. So a lot of those are being ironed out at the moment. Scarlet Bennett: When you work in Western Australia, how can people from other states, you know, rehabilitation people and so on, who work in this space, how can they connect with your work?Tim McLennan: It's a, it's a great question. We are fortunate here in Western Australia that the hospitals have realized that the role of the rehabilitation engineer, and we have a few more over here than many of the other states. A lot of the, a lot of my role would be pushed more into the private sector. And the NDIS is, is trying to foster these kind of services to make it available to people in other states.But certainly I, I can give my email address. If you look on the Churchill Trust website which I think is churchilltrust.com.au and search for Tim McLennan on assistive technology, my contact details should be there. Happy to take emails and and calls and talk to anyone who is interested in finding out how any of my work can help or can be replicated in other, other places in Australia.Scarlet Bennett: That's fabulous, thanks Tim. And what about if there are listeners who have a need for assistive assistive technology themselves, they've got limited resources, what do they need to do to tap into this network? Tim McLennan: Yeah. This is always a, a big question. And the NDIS to a large extent is, is trying to solve this issue. Not everyone unfortunately, is eligible and there's still a few people falling between the gaps. But the biggest, I guess the biggest chance of success is if someone is able to be a strong advocate themselves or find someone to assist them in, in their advocacy, to basically contact health services and ask questions as to, to where might I be able to find someone who can, can help here. There are different different organizations for, for different conditions that can help things like the Motor Neurons Disease Association. Each state has their own, who have got some great resources in terms of care advisors and advocates who can help link you up with the services and help find the needs that you are after. Otherwise, there's a number of good advocate or, or sort of user groups. AppChat is, is one on Facebook that I'm aware of that's, it's really good to to be able to speak with other people who are using similar assistive technology, find out what, what works for them and how they got it as well. Cause yeah, unfortunately, often it's, it's word of mouth to, to find the right person who can get you linked into the right services.Scarlet Bennett: That's really helpful. Thank you so much, Tim, and thank you again for joining us on the Wayfinder podcast. It's been an absolute pleasure to talk with you today, fascinated by the work you do and look forward to seeing how or hearing how that demo site turns out once you get it up and running. Tim McLennan: Thank you. Looking forward to having it finished and running. Scarlet Bennett: Fabulous. And just lastly on that, what's the timeframe for it, Tim? Do you have a sense of how long it'll take? Tim McLennan: Our plan is to have it at least minimally operating within the next sort of five to six months. So we should have that, the first lot of patients running through it this year.Scarlet Bennett: Wonderful. That's an ambitious agenda and we all look forward to seeing it come to fruition. Thank you again, Tim. Tim McLennan, thanks for joining us today.Yellow Edge: Thank you for listening to the Wayfinder podcast. For more information on yellowed and our services, including professional development, coaching, strategic support, mediation, and venue hire. Visit yellowedge.com.au. For more information on the Winston Churchill Trust, visit churchilltrust.com.au.

E06 - Tim McLennan & Transformative World of Assistive Technologies

“[L]ike most people who have experienced catastrophic injuries, it's a major point in your life— everything changes.All your assumptions get thrown out the window of what tomorrow's going to be like. But there does seem to be a sort of a major pivotal role when people experience these of either overloaded and really struggled with life from that point, or it becomes such a driving force for motivation and an ability to see new potentials and options.” Tim McLennan In this episode, Scarlet speaks with Tim McLennan, a Churchill Fellow and clinical rehabilitation engineer based at Fiona Stanley Hospital in Perth, Western Australia. Tim's journey into the world of assistive technology was profoundly influenced by a life-altering experience. Tim's story is one of personal transformation and a deep commitment to making a difference in the lives of those who have faced adversity. He specialises in innovative assistive technology, a field that aims to enhance the independence and quality of life for individuals with disabilities.Tim provides valuable insights into the world of assistive technology, explaining its significance and showcasing its far-reaching impact. He dispels misconceptions, discussing the diverse range of assistive devices beyond the well-known examples like wheelchairs and prosthetics. Tim introduces us to cutting-edge innovations, such as exoskeletons and brain-computer interfaces, which hold the potential to revolutionise the lives of those with disabilities.Visit Tim McLennan’s Churchill Trust project page here. Listen to more episodes Podcast Partner EPISODE 6: TRANSCRIPT - TIM MCLENNANYellow Edge: Yellow Edge in association with the Winston Churchill Trust proudly presents the Wayfinder podcast. In this series, we ask high performing individuals how they plotted the path to success. Our guests are all Churchill Fellows. Having been provided the opportunity by the Churchill Trust to research their chosen field internationally, the Wayfinder explores the often winding path of how these fellows came to their professions and catalogs, the trials and tribulations faced along the way.And now your host, Scarlet Bennett.Scarlet Bennett: Welcome to the Wayfinder Podcast. I'm Scarlet Bennett, and with me today is Tim McLennan. Tim is a clinical rehabilitation engineer working with innovative assistive technology at the Fiona Stanley Hospital in Perth, in WA, Western Australia. Tim, welcome. Thank you for joining us today. Tim McLennan: Thank you for having me.Scarlet Bennett: Your eyes were open to the use of assistive technology in a very personal way. Tell us about that experience. Tim McLennan: Umm, yes. So when I was a new grad as an electrical engineer not knowing anything about the world of assistive technology or disability, I was flying gliders as a hobby in the wheat belt of Western Australia.And a storm front that was a little unexpected came in and I didn't get back to the airfield in time. Ended up crash-landing not far from the airfield, but due to that crash, experienced a spinal cord injury and was unable to walk. So the, the, the paralysis that occurred at the time due to the, the swelling and everything meant that I was essentially paralyzed from the waist down.I got shipped off to a hospital and was unfortunately told I need to learn from that stage of what life was going to be like in a wheelchair from that point. I was very fortunate to be able to regain through a lot of rehabilitation about eight months of working with the teams at, at the then Royal Perth at Shenton Park Hospital, regaining the vast majority of my function back again.So I am able to independently walk again, but that was eight months of, of going from not being able to move to being able to get into a wheelchair to be able to, get up onto crutches and, and then eventually one crutch and, and, and get rid of it. You know, just have some orthotics on my feet cause they haven't fully recovered.And so I can largely go about my business as I did before, just with a little bit of assistive technology strapped to my ankles. Scarlet Bennett: That's really interesting. And we, these experiences change us, don't they? What, what did you learn what changed for you as a result of this experience? Tim McLennan: Well, yeah, it was a like most people who have experienced catastrophic injuries, it's a major point in your life.Everything changes, all your assumptions get thrown out the window of, of what tomorrow's going to be like. But there does seem to be a, a sort of a major pivotal role when people experience these of either overloaded and, and really struggled with life from that point, or it becomes such a driving force for motivation and an ability to see new potentials and options.Unfortunately I did get to see that and it changed my whole career path. I, I, I realized that my engineering skills could be better put to use in the world of rehabilitation, engineering and, and, and assistive technology to have a really meaningful impact on helping people who have been in unfortunate situations to be able to regain losses that may have been no fault of their own.Umm, yeah. Scarlet Bennett: It's absolutely fascinating, isn't it? Tim, for listeners who don't understand the terminology, what is 'assistive technology?' Tim McLennan: Yeah. Well I like to say that assistive technology is a bit of a tautology in the sense that any technology has been developed to assist a person or a process. But the actual term 'assistive technology' is usually used in relation to devices to assist a person with a disability, to try and regain some of their lost function or abilities, and ideally restore independence so that people who have suffered a loss due to illness or injury aren't relying on carers or friends or families to do whatever activities they wish to do. The most common thought that sort of people associate with assistive technology, the big obvious things like wheelchairs, prosthetic limbs, communication devices. However, assistive technology can become common enough and no longer thought of as a disability product and sometimes referred to as mainstream. And, and glasses for sight correction are a great example of this. An assistive technology to, you know, to improve sight. Scarlet Bennett: That makes sense. So it's actually more, it's more common than, than people realize. Tim McLennan: Absolutely. Yes. And basically, there's many types of assistive technology there as there are things that we as humans want to do.Scarlet Bennett: Can you give us some examples, Tim, of the type of technology that's out there that people might not have heard of? You know, we're familiar with wheelchairs and, and spectacles and some of these other things. But what else is out there that, that might really interest people? Tim McLennan: Absolutely. There's, there's sort of some really big ones that with the rapid changes of technology, I think are going to become fruitful in the, in the near future, things that seemed very sci-fi not so long ago. But we're, we're starting to see what we, we'd hoped in terms of the extension from wheelchairs to be like stair climbing chairs. You don't have to have the environment changed to suit the wheelchairs. Things like exoskeletons, so people can strap on a device to restore their ability to walk, or even surgically implantable stimulation to restore paralysis without needing any external devices.And along those lines, there's even technology in the sense being driven from another angle, which is the ability to improve human capability who may have not experienced any loss in the first place and, and that one is brain computer interfaces. So this is a, a where an electronic device is worn on the head or implanted into someone's skull that can read the electrical signals of your brain and interpret them, interpret them as your thoughts or intended commands.So this is, this research has been happening for a while, but it's improving rapidly at the moment. There'll be a major life change for anyone with a significant physical disability or experiencing what's called 'Locked-in Syndrome' where you can think and comprehend and, and, and most likely see what's going on, but have no ability to move or communicate your thoughts or feelings.And in that scenario, having an electronic device, being able to read your mind and typing what you want onto a screen or typing out an email or controlling the device, would open up so many opportunities. But even for someone without a disability, the ability to speed up rather than using your two fingers on a jumbled keyboard or multitask at the speed of your, your rapid thought switching, will have so many applications to improve everybody's capabilities.But yeah, hopefully it helps along with those most at need and bring them up at the same time. Scarlet Bennett: That's extraordinary. And it is very sci-fi, isn't it? It's, it seems like there's almost no end to what it can do. Tim McLennan: Absolutely. Scarlet Bennett: Tim, you work as part of a rehabilitation multidisciplinary team. What exactly is your role and how would you contribute in a scenario like this?Tim McLennan: Yeah, so my, my job role is termed 'rehabilitation engineer,' which is not a common role, I'm unfortunate that the Western Australian Department of Health has had the foresight to foster this kind of role in the, in the hospital settings. But we work alongside all your standard allied health, your speech therapists, your occupational therapists, physiotherapists and allied health team obviously works with, with the doctors and nurses in rehabilitating people, getting them out of hospital and regain their independence as much as possible.So everybody in the multi, multidiscipline team is there cause of their diverse skills and abilities and perspective to try and come up with a holistic solution, cause you can't fix a problem if you don't know all the issues coming from every, every direction. And so a rehabilitation engineer will certainly help out with any of the technical aspects.We often, umm, there'll be an idea of what the team will want to try and achieve, but to physically make something construct it, we've got access to all the, the construction tools, workshops, etcetera, the materials, we can build things, we can use electronic means for changing someone's ability, say if they've got a small amount of movement in their hand, that can be used to control an electronic device and then that electronic device can be used to do multiple other functions to yeah, to regain sort of the activities that person wants to be able to do independently. Scarlet Bennett: It sounds like each case is quite tailored to the individual?Tim McLennan: Absolutely. There are often sort of diagnoses or categories of injuries that a certain device will help in that area but the everybody's journey and and abilities are different. Everybody's preferences are different so usually there needs to be some form of for, for the best outcome, some form of customization or yeah or personalization of assistive technology Scarlet Bennett: Mm that makes perfect sense. Are you able, without breaching confidentiality obviously, but are you able to share a case study of of of how this works and what it might look like? Tim McLennan: I guess one of the the the typical scenarios we would see and is a significant percentage of our caseload would be assisting people with motor neurons disease. And this is a debilitating illness that currently isn't a cure. There aren't even that many solutions to even slow down the progress at this point. But this is where people start losing physical function usually in the extremities of the limbs and then and slowly so you might find it difficult to walk and then the legs become too weak to be able to carry you. You might find then a restriction in finger ability, so you can move your arm but not your fine motor of your fingers. And then that slowly, essentially shrinks back into only having the ability to move your head and then- since that I mean after that just looking about. Often it involves a loss of speech as well. So you've got someone who's still got the full ability to think and feel and see and hear and experience everything but the inability to to control. So we try and support these people. And as their condition or symptoms progress we would initially look at-- with the loss of hand function, we'd find alternative ways of using a phone. So instead of a touchscreen using a a mouse for example to to access the phone and tablet so you can still be able to do email still call people those kinda things. With the loss of limb, like arm function we would be able to use the head So as you move your head left right up and down that would be controlling the mouse on the screen. With the loss of voice, you obviously need programs on the devices that you're using to have alternative ways of typing out what you want to say. And quick access methods of being able to say phrases to try and speed up that ability to get your thoughts out into speech. And then the all the other things that go along-- things like your ability to control the position in your wheelchair or your bed, for comfort. The ability to turn on lights, and turn them off, fans, air conditioning, those kind of things. So luckily electronic devices nowadays can give us more and more access to those kind of things. So if we can tailor the access of being able to control those devices for the person then that will go a long way to helping us maintain their independence as much as possible. Scarlet Bennett: Thank you. That's really fascinating. I understand that the open source community contributes to solutions. Can you explain a little bit about how that works?Tim McLennan: Yeah absolutely. This is something that's sort of in in my heart that I'd like to to to push further. The open source as a concept is basically freedom of information in the sense of if there are solutions to problems in the world, ideally it would make sense to make those solutions and information freely available to everybody. So that if I manage to create a nice device that's is useful for someone here, someone in the other side of the planet isn't going to get my personal help if I can convey that information across and get somebody over there to be able to help and hopefully that information or or solution can can reach many many more people. So open source is the the publishing of information of instructions, of programming code, of examples of how problems can be solved. And in the disability sector I think it's it's really important because there are very few commercial opportunities. The disability market is very small. There's a small number of people that can benefit from this specific device. And so often it doesn't make a lot of sense to hold onto that information make a commercial solution and try and sell it anywhere else. And often it's going to people who have got the least amount of resources to be able to purchase these devices. So there is a couple of great movements. One I'd love to give a shout out to is the Makers Making Change which is a Canadian organization, And basically wherever they can if there's a way of saving 3D models because a lot of devices are are little physical devices that can be 3D printed. If you can make that solution, save it to the web, someone on the other side of the world can download that solution it print on their 3D printer and have the exact same device available to them for very very low cost. Scarlet Bennett: That's brilliant isn't it? Tim McLennan: Yeah Scarlet Bennett: In 2016 you were awarded a fellowship with the Winston Churchill Trust. What motivated you to apply for your fellowship?Tim McLennan: Umm that was thanks to my wife who also worked in the the health industry and was aware of this opportunity. But she basically made me realize that I'm privileged enough to be in this position to be able to help as many people as we can, but in a very niche area that there aren't a lot of either opportunities to learn, or share, in the small community of rehabilitation engineering within Perth. So-- and over time technology changes so rapidly such that if you aren't keeping up to date constantly yeah, you're working with with older tech and and there's most likely better solutions available. So the Churchill Fellowship was an amazing opportunity to be able to go overseas, choose my path, find the the people who are working in similar areas, or new areas that we don't have the resources to work in here. To be able to connect with them, learn from them, along the lines of that open source, thought of sharing information, sharing resources on on trying to work on problems, and and make the world a better place as quickly as possible Scarlet Bennett: And how has the project shaped the work you do now if at all? Tim McLennan: It it's it's shaped it greatly. I've I've had the I guess the confidence and the the credibility to be able to reach out locally make some great collaborations with universities here. I think collaboration between the resources of universities and hospitals is a really important way of being able to progress assistive technology. And I saw that happening quite well in in places like England and Canada, and the US So being able to to bring that information back and try and replicate similar things here has been a big one. And just the ability to know that there are other people solving similar problems that I can now contact and say 'we've got this new problem have you come across anything like it? What do you...' and have a brainstorm together. Scarlet Bennett: And so it really tapped you into global best practice at the time and and helped you to build that broader network. Tim McLennan: Absolutely. Scarlet Bennett: Yeah fantastic. And and you've recently won an Impact Grant through the Churchill Trust. What is this and what are you doing with it? Tim McLennan: Yes. So this is another fantastic opportunity and I've gotta thank The Trust again for this. Where I guess the Churchill Trust had recently it had the issue where a lot of their fellows that they wanted to award couldn't travel overseas and and do that great experience that I managed to do just before COVID hit. However, they still wanted to be able to make a difference in an impact in Australia and wanted to work out how they could best do that. And decided to award some grants to returned fellows who have come back with an idea and are struggling to implement it. So my project, which I've been working on for a little while and having a bit of issues finding the funding for internally, is to try and bridge the gap that we currently have between discharge from hospital and people returning back into the community.So obviously once somebody is medically stable, we need to free up hospital beds. So the idea is to get people out of hospital and returned home as quick as possible. But, without the appropriate assistive technology that's been trialed, tested and installed in the person's house, usually people are discharged home and are quite reliant on 24-hour care, or at least lots of paid care or the burden falls onto the family and friends who are living with them.Or there's no appropriate places or not enough appropriate places to be discharged to, and that's often holding up hospital beds that could be better utilized. So my plan is to create a, what I'm calling, a technology for independence demonstration environment. And this is going to be like a, a mini smart home essentially.So people, whilst this are still in inpatient, will be able to use this room, pretend that they're at home, be able to go about their, their daily activities and see if they're able to make make food for themselves in the kitchen. Are they able to get in and out of bed? Are they able to go to the bathroom and, and, and toilet on their own?And basically have a, a one-stop shop where we have as much assistive technology, smart home type features in this room so people can see what is actually available and have a chance to use it to say, yes, this is gonna work for me, or this doesn't work and we can come up with a solution so that they have an idea of, of how their life can be assisted when going back into the community before they get there and don't have that, that option.Scarlet Bennett: That sounds like a really, really valuable thing to offer people. I'm wondering now, you know, as you're saying that, I'm wondering how we're tracking in Australia compared to what's being done around the rest of the world. Tim McLennan: Yeah. I guess that was one of the things that came out of my Churchill Fellowship was the, I guess the good news story that, that in Australia we are very fortunate to have quite a good healthcare system. With the emergence of the NDIS, which was starting up around the time when I had my Churchill Fellowship. That's also another fantastic opportunity that many in the rest of the world don't get in terms of funding for a much broader sense of, of assistive technology and, and services that a lot of people, even in some of the other Western worlds don't get access to.But I guess like in every scenario there are certain areas that, that we could, we, we could improve in. And because everybody's journey's different, it's really difficult for these systems to be able to cater for everyone perfectly. But, I think we've got a, on average, a fairly good access to good and high level technology.And we are building the services to be able to have a much better quality of life for people who, who need it. But like everything, there'll be hiccups along the way. So a lot of those are being ironed out at the moment. Scarlet Bennett: When you work in Western Australia, how can people from other states, you know, rehabilitation people and so on, who work in this space, how can they connect with your work?Tim McLennan: It's a, it's a great question. We are fortunate here in Western Australia that the hospitals have realized that the role of the rehabilitation engineer, and we have a few more over here than many of the other states. A lot of the, a lot of my role would be pushed more into the private sector. And the NDIS is, is trying to foster these kind of services to make it available to people in other states.But certainly I, I can give my email address. If you look on the Churchill Trust website which I think is churchilltrust.com.au and search for Tim McLennan on assistive technology, my contact details should be there. Happy to take emails and and calls and talk to anyone who is interested in finding out how any of my work can help or can be replicated in other, other places in Australia.Scarlet Bennett: That's fabulous, thanks Tim. And what about if there are listeners who have a need for assistive assistive technology themselves, they've got limited resources, what do they need to do to tap into this network? Tim McLennan: Yeah. This is always a, a big question. And the NDIS to a large extent is, is trying to solve this issue. Not everyone unfortunately, is eligible and there's still a few people falling between the gaps. But the biggest, I guess the biggest chance of success is if someone is able to be a strong advocate themselves or find someone to assist them in, in their advocacy, to basically contact health services and ask questions as to, to where might I be able to find someone who can, can help here. There are different different organizations for, for different conditions that can help things like the Motor Neurons Disease Association. Each state has their own, who have got some great resources in terms of care advisors and advocates who can help link you up with the services and help find the needs that you are after. Otherwise, there's a number of good advocate or, or sort of user groups. AppChat is, is one on Facebook that I'm aware of that's, it's really good to to be able to speak with other people who are using similar assistive technology, find out what, what works for them and how they got it as well. Cause yeah, unfortunately, often it's, it's word of mouth to, to find the right person who can get you linked into the right services.Scarlet Bennett: That's really helpful. Thank you so much, Tim, and thank you again for joining us on the Wayfinder podcast. It's been an absolute pleasure to talk with you today, fascinated by the work you do and look forward to seeing how or hearing how that demo site turns out once you get it up and running. Tim McLennan: Thank you. Looking forward to having it finished and running. Scarlet Bennett: Fabulous. And just lastly on that, what's the timeframe for it, Tim? Do you have a sense of how long it'll take? Tim McLennan: Our plan is to have it at least minimally operating within the next sort of five to six months. So we should have that, the first lot of patients running through it this year.Scarlet Bennett: Wonderful. That's an ambitious agenda and we all look forward to seeing it come to fruition. Thank you again, Tim. Tim McLennan, thanks for joining us today.Yellow Edge: Thank you for listening to the Wayfinder podcast. For more information on yellowed and our services, including professional development, coaching, strategic support, mediation, and venue hire. Visit yellowedge.com.au. For more information on the Winston Churchill Trust, visit churchilltrust.com.au.

E05 - Kon Karapanagiotidis & 30,000 Welcomes

“{T}he most important thing is just to be a bystander [ally], give what you can, do what you can, but we need to come out this pandemic kinder and more compassionate, not cruel and more indifferent.” Kon Karapanagiotidis, ASRC In this episode, Scarlet speaks with Kon Karapanagiotidis, a Churchill Fellow, CEO and Founder of the Asylum Seeker Resource Centre (ASRC). Established in 2001, the ASRC stands as a testament to his visionary aspiration to ‘create a place of home and welcome where no one was turned away.’ Growing up as the child of refugees and witnessing firsthand the hardships of exploitation and racism in rural Victoria, Kon's connection to the plight of refugees in Australia is deeply personal. Over the span of 22 years, Kon's unwavering dedication has garnered him numerous accolades, including the prestigious Order of Australia, for his exceptional contributions in aiding and advocating for refugees. His commitment to this cause remains steadfast, as he continues to work towards reshaping the Australian ethos, to foster a culture that wholeheartedly embraces refugees and provides them with fair and universal support. Listen to more episodes Podcast Partner EPISODE 5: TRANSCRIPT - KON KARAPANAGIOTIDISYellow Edge: Yellow Edge in association with the Winston Churchill Trust proudly presents the Wayfinder Podcast. In this series, we ask high performing individuals how they plotted the path to success. Our guests are all Churchill Fellows. Having been provided the opportunity by the Churchill Trust to research their chosen field internationally.The Wayfinder explores the often winding paths of how these fellows came to their professions and catalogs, the trials and tribulations faced along the way. And now your host, Scarlet BennettScarlet Bennett: Kon Karapanagiotidis is the CEO and Founder of the Asylum Seeker Resource Center, the largest independent human rights organisation for refugees and people seeking asylum in Australia. I am Scarlet Bennett and welcome to the Wayfinder Podcast. Kon's organisation assists thousands of people every year, supported by more than 1,200 volunteers and 125 staff. Tell us about the Asylum Seeker Resource Centre today, Kon. If I was a fly on a wall observing a day in the life at the Centre, what would I see? Kon Karapanagiotidis: Thank you for having me. Coming to you from the land of the Wurundjeri People of the Kulin Nation, you would see a passionate organisation filled with inspiring and dedicated staff and volunteers that are very much at the coal face being the safety net that the government should be. People at the coal face providing housing, food, legal advice, healthcare, welcome, assistance finding your first job, your first opportunity to study in this country. You'd find a place buzzing with voices and cultures from all around the world, people that sadly had to flee their countries because of persecution and oppression, hoping to find safety and peace in Australia. Scarlet Bennett: And how has the work you do evolved over time? You know, if that's what the snapshot looks like now, can you speak a little bit to the Centre's origins and how your work might have changed over the years you've been in operation? Kon Karapanagiotidis: We started in really, uh, humble settings, established in eight weeks as a TAFE school project with a group of students I was teaching at the time. Opened up in a 20 square meter little shop-phone with one phone, one table, one chair, providing food a couple of days a week to people seeking asylum. Most Australians don't know that thousands of people while going through the process of trying to prove they're a refugee are forbidden from working, having healthcare or access to Centrelink. So we started running on a couple $100 a week on the smell of an oily rag and over the last 21 years, unfortunately, I've had to continue to grow and grow and grow.How with change has been one: the scale of what we had to offer. There's almost 40 different services we provide under the one roof right now, from housing to food, to legal assistance and medical care. What's changed has been the political environment has become tougher and tougher, and while we have an optimism with a change of government at the moment, nothing has really changed.And so what we've seen-- probably since 1996, you know, has been a politicising of a humanitarian issue. And when I founded the ASRC back in June of 2001, it was quite the year, because what happened in August, the Tampa, where the Howard government at the time refused more than 400 people from Afghanistan, the right to sick asylum in Australia.And sadly, what happened a month later was 9/11. And forever refugees, innocent human beings fleeing torture and war and persecution were conflated with the war and terror. And what we've seen predominantly bipartisan for the last two decades has been a politicising and demonizing of refugees instead of a protecting and humanising of them.So a lot of how we've changed is so much of our energy and time is spent trying to win hearts and minds and change cruel and unjust policies. Scarlet Bennett: Hmm, that makes sense. I understand that you grew up in a working class family and country Victoria. How did your childhood experience in an immigrant family influence your decision to embrace this work?Kon Karapanagiotidis: Yeah, look, everything's really deeply personal for me. When my father was alive, you know, he spoke about having to leave school at the age of nine and you know, go and work the fields cause his parents were so poor. My mom at the age of 12, Um, my dad on his side, his parents were refugees having to flee the Pondian genocide, um, some century ago. Watching my parents struggle and being raised in poverty, watching my parents work on tobacco farms in a little Victorian country town called Mount Beauty, and then in factories here in Melbourne until their bodies couldn't take it anymore. Having grown up in a little country town, where I experienced a lot of racism, moved to the city and experienced a lot of bullying when I was going through high school, I think these things were really pivotal in shaping perspective, pride in who I was and where I came from, and the lessons of my parents were very much about being proud of your story and your history of being Greek Australian. Um, never taking anything for granted, not being afraid to work hard, and to think of other people before yourself. And I think those things were deep, deep influences in shaping the person that I am. That in the work I do now, I always think that would quite easily be my parents as immigrants or my grandparents as refugees seeking welcome in sanctuary and one story and conversation I have with Australians for the last 21 years, including those don't want refugees and knows that and thinks they need to be turned away and locked up is that the moment I make it about them and their families and their values, I've yet to meet an Australian that would want anything less about welcome and protection and dignity if it was their family seeking refuge. We just happen to be so privileged and blessed this country that most of us have no, uh, connection to that story or we're forgotten that unless we're indigenous to this country, that we're all descendants of boat people.Scarlet Bennett: Hmm, it's a powerful point, isn't it? Kon, in your memoir, 'The Power of Hope,' you speak quite a bit about your parents, their values, their work ethic, their utter and complete dedication to creating opportunities for you and your sister, the opportunities they hadn't had. You also mentioned their legacy of their losses and disappointments, and a quote that I've taken from your book was, "No one loves me more deeply than my mother, and no one ever will. But the disappointment and grief she was burdened with also became my grief to help carry forward," which as a son you do. "How would you describe then, this legacy that you carry, the honour, the burden that grows out of these complex relationships? Kon Karapanagiotidis: Yeah, that's a great question.. Everything good about me and that I've achieved came from my late father and my mum. One of the things when I was writing my memoir was about reflecting back on my childhood, my upbringing, uh, and it was really confronting to, to name something I'd never understood, I never given a name to, which is intergenerational trauma. And that is what is, what is a universal story of the immigrant or refugee story outside of the incredible contribution sacrifices that allow me and my sister to thrive today, but is incredible grief and loss of what has been given up And there's very little oxygen for it there. And I'll tell you why. Cause migrants and refugees are constantly being told about how grateful they should be to be here, um, and how much they need to assimilate. And that, refugees are told that they've chosen to risk their lives to get to safety. And in reality, for both the refugee and the migrant for very different reasons, one for safety and one for a better life. But neither is actually chosen to be a refugee or immigrant. If their country had the safety or opportunity, they would still be there, because people are leaving behind so much of their culture and community. And I think that grief, the grief of sacrifice of having to work in factories and farms as so many migrants and refugees have done over the last century, especially post World War 2.Where does all those dreams go and all those sacrifices go? Where does all what you could have been? I look at our generation, my generation, and the generations after me and I, I'll be honest and say that I couldn't see generations from mine onwards making the same sort of sacrifices that my parents generation, and the generations before them did.Not on that scale to literally dedicate your life, to a thankless career that often humiliates you where you're degraded and constantly, you know, physically harmed and broken, but you do it so that your kids don't, um, have to go through that. I don't see that happening these days from my generation onwards. I think that there's cost that's paid there and, and that weighs heavily.And so I think what that looks like for me is about making sure that those sacrifices were in vain. And that, I make sure they count. Uh, ultimately my dad and my mum just wanted me to be happy, but, but, but I realise I have an obligation to do much more with a sacrifice than just worry about myself. Scarlet Bennett: You mentioned in 'The Power of Hope,', a powerful encounter with Taxi Driver that gave you hope when you needed it most. I wonder if you could share that with our listeners?Kon Karapanagiotidis: I was finishing a shift at, um, our, our evening legal service, a bit after midnight. And I was walking, trying to shout down a cab with my, my sister in, um, very much in the midnight hour. And we just had a really exhausting and difficult day and kind of questioning, what's the point? Cause this feels like a David and Goliath battle, most days we up against the government that's trying to hurt refugees and we get picked up by a cab driver and he starts chatting to me and he goes, “You remember me?” Um, and then he introduced himself and, and shared with me the story. This is just by random chance of how many years earlier, uh, when he had arrived here, that, um, my organisation had helped him get asylum, had helped furnish his home, um, had helped him establish himself here and that that had saved his life and changed his life and that of his family.And when the cab came to a halt and I tried to pay, he just said, look, the least I could do is to please, uh, to show my gratitude by at least giving you, uh, a lift home. And I really needed to, to to see that like, you don't do this work cause you're wanting gratitude or thanks, but so often you feel like you actually making a difference. And I felt very blessed, uh, somehow at that moment, when I just needed a reminder that it does matter, like living a principled life, living a life of purpose, doing what you can to make the world better. It does make a difference no matter how powerless or inconsequential it can feel at times. Scarlet Bennett: That's really wonderful. And, and I'm sure there are so many other people out there who would feel the same if they encountered you again. It's that kind of ripple effect! Kon Karapanagiotidis: Yeah, I'll share one more story. I was, um, a couple of years ago, uh, a university decided to give me an honorary doctorate and I was able to take one person. So I took my mom and I was there, um, my mom was so proud, you know, seeing me have the life that she never got to have. And I had a young woman come up to me, she's all dressed in a beautiful graduation gown, and she's asking me if she can be introduced to my mother.She wants to give her a hug, and she, and this young woman's there with her sister and her parents and she goes up to my mum and she hugs her and she told my mum the story of how about 15 years earlier, when she was around six or seven, she turned up to the ASRC with her sister and her parents, and it was our charity that helped them gain asylum and that she was now graduating from university today. And she just, uh, wanted to say thank you, and we took this beautiful photo.Her parents beaming with pride. My mum, beaming with pride and our two families kinda coming together to share this moment. Yeah, that's everything. You know, those moments are, are everything. Cause most of the day, you, you're spent, you know, as I said, fighting this cruel system, uh, with these incredible, resilient, resourceful, courageous people, which is what refugees are.But you often see people at their worst, that is, you know, being locked up, being left in limbo for a decade. So when you can see people thrive and succeed when given the chance, it really is such a precious moment! Scarlet Bennett: That's just so wonderful, isn't it? Kon Karapanagiotidis: Mm. Scarlet Bennett: In 2010, you were awarded a fellowship with the Winston Churchill Trust. What motivated you to apply for the fellowship? Kon Karapanagiotidis: Yeah, uh, when you work for a non-government funded charity, your chance to, you know, explore the world and to learn from others is non-existent because you can't, can't ever justify spending that sort, that sort of money. So, what was really great about applying for this was I had a dream around, I wanted to make sure that everything I was doing was the best that it could be for people seeking asylum or refugees. I wanted to know that every service, everywhere I work in, that it could hold its own anywhere in the because I firmly believe that the community I serve deserve the best, and so what inspired me was to go, "God, I would love to go and investigate what is world's best practice and go and visit organisations around the world that I've long admired and been keen to learn from." And what this, uh, scholarship allowed me to do was something that was forever beyond my means, which was to travel and, and visit, um, countries, all through North America and Europe, visit 44 different refugee organisations in the space of 8 weeks. Take back a decade of learning and insights that I gained in eight weeks. And it allowed me to fast track everything I do as a CEO and a leader in the refugee space. It gave me great new ways of delivering better services, better education, better campaigns for change, better ways to structure the organisation that I lead. It was really transformative and life-changing. Scarlet Bennett: Are there any particular key learnings that you could speak to, Kon? Kon Karapanagiotidis: There really were, and the biggest one, was the importance of the refugees you serve, being very much at the heart of everything you do. One of the things that really inspired me when I was, in particular, New York, um, there's a large undocumented migrant movement, they're talking broadly about migrant and refugees who very much leave the activism and campaigns risking their immediate detention and deportation, but they're front and center, the faces and the voices. And I think often here in Australia, we've had such a hostile government that we've often been fearful of the risk of people being deported and detained if they are the human face of a lot of this activism, but it really challenged me to go, um, this can be done.And instead of deciding on behalf of refugees, how about actually asking refugees what they would like? And it really changed my entire mindset and approach where I was no doubt, good intentioned, but being paternalistic there. And it really challenged me to go, actually, they're the experts. It's their lives and they know best and I need to be listening to them first, and it really changed the way I can become a better ally and was able to work in a far more respectful and equitable with the very community that I serve, and I found that life-changing. Scarlet Bennett: What would you describe then, as your greatest success and greatest disappointment during your years as a human rights advocate? Kon Karapanagiotidis: My greatest success over the last 21 years of leading 'The Asylum Seeker Resource Center' is probably three things. One, thousands of people are alive today, cause we, we exist. Thousands of people who, if not for our advocacy and support, would've been sent back to countries where they would've been tortured and killed. That's a horrifying fact, but a truth. Two, that we've been a place of refuge and welcome now to more than 30,000 people seeking asylum, a place of welcome and safety. And three, that we have helped with many others led by refugees to change the hearts and minds of, we believe now majority of this country to a point now where want compassionate and humane refugee policy and I think the last election from the uplifting and change of government in the support of Independents and Greens demonstrates that. My greatest disappointment is still needing to be here 21 years later. I feel like I failed-- to 21 years later to still need to be an organization that is here providing emergency food and housing and medical care and legal assistance.My dream when I started the ASRC at 28 was that my greatest success would be putting us out of business, would be closing our doors. I feel closer to that with the change of government, but it still feels way too far away for me., and I wish I had been able to be more effective as a leader in winning enough hearts and minds, both in, in the halls of parliament and in the broader community that we no longer had an appetite and a stomach for this cruelty, and that that change was in our blood and in our bones. Kind of like what we've marriage equality. Yeah. That's where I'd like us to be, where it becomes unthinkable to treat people in such a illegal and unjust inhumane way ever again. And that's my, my what I'm determined to get to as a leader and keep fighting until we're there.Scarlet Bennett: Hmm. So given the state of play, you know, what do you see as your next frontier? What are you working towards? Kon Karapanagiotidis: Yeah, there's one of the things we did, you know, going back and going to the learnings of the fellowship, is really about being led by refugees themselves so, uh, my organisation spent the last year asking refugees what should we be focusing on and how are we gonna do this together in partnership? And so our key priorities are as follows:Many Australians don't know that there are 30,000 people that sought asylum 10 years ago that are still in limbo. two thirds that we accept as refugees, but put them on an endless path of temporary visas for the last decade-- getting them permanent protection. Number two, the universal right to work, healthcare and income safety net for all people seeking asylum. Number three, depoliticising this issue so that it never becomes a political football again, where refugees are demonised, detained, and, and treated in such inhumane way. Number four, we we're the only country in the industrialised democratic world that has a policy of indefinitely and arbitrarily locking-up refugees, periods that are up to 20 times longer than you will find on average in the UK, Canada, or the US. So we wanna see an end into that. We wanna see an into the 200 plus poor souls that have been held in Papua New Guinea Naru for almost a decade now, needlessly, um, causing irreparable harm to many. Ultimately, what I'm working on is about being able to transform and change this nation to one that once again, like we once did, took its fair share of refugees, was proud to do so, saw it as a humanitarian, bipartisan issue. And saw the person, a country where every Australian understands that we have simply won the lottery of time and place, and it could quite easily be us in a midnight hour knocking on the door asking for safety. Now, I firmly believe everything can change in a generation.What I'm hoping is the generation that is coming up is one that doesn't repeat the moral failures of the past and welcomes and protects refugees. That's what we're working on. That's what I'm working on. Scarlet Bennett: That's a really impressive agenda and um, you know, sitting here I'm thinking, how can I help? And I bet will wonder the same thing.How can people be a part of this? How can they help? Kon Karapanagiotidis: You know they always say there's three ways, which is participate, advocate and donate. Participate: COVID has hit us hard, like every other charity, we've lost hundred of our wonderful volunteers, many were older Australians and were in vulnerable health groups and understandably COVID has been really tough on us all. And, uh, we are in desperate need for hundreds of more volunteers.The community we work with had got none of the COVID supports that every other Australian-- there was no Job Keeper, there was no Job Seeker for anyone seeking asylum. So 1: volunteer, you can volunteer anywhere in the country, um, virtually, um, you know, onsite in, in Melbourne. Um, there's lots of different ways after hours-- volunteer. Second one, advocate. There, we always have campaigns where you can lend a voice.One of the movement is about permanent protection for, uh, people that have been found to be refugees, such people from Afghanistan. And on our website, you find campaigns to sign-up and get involved in. And third, if you can, donate. Whether it's your time, whether it's food, or if you're in a position to do so, um, money. But the most important thing is just to be a bystander, give what you can, do what you can, but we need to come out this pandemic kinder and more compassionate, not cruel and more indifferent. I reckon we're at a crossroads right now where COVID has, has had such a toll on so many of us.But I wonder how our country will come out of it because Australia's got a taste for kind of what it's like to be a refugee every day, year on end, to be restricted in your freedom of movement, to be fearful for your safety, to be in limbo. To not be able to see loved ones, to not have control over uncertainty.That's the daily refugee story, and it's the story I wish for on no one. But I'm curious and patient and hopeful that we come out of this with bigger hearts and more open minds. But I think the coming year will be really telling around, do we come out of this as a kinder and better nation? Or do we come out of this as a selfish one? Time will tell, but we all have a role to play in shaping the country that we want.And I hope it's one that is kind, with a big heart and optimistic and curious about how to be more welcoming instead of one that is more focused on, I'm gonna worry about myself and my own backyard. We've had a, we've had a decade of that politically and look where it's got us. So I think we're ready for a change.I think most Australians are hungry for different way.Kon Karapanagiotidis, many thanks for your time today, it’s been an absolute pleasure. And if you’re listening, the name of Kon’s organisation is 'The Asylum Seeker Resource Centre’ and all support in advocacy, participate.. What was it, Kon? Participate. It was participate, advocate, donate. Scarlet Bennett: Donate. Absolutely. Thank you so much. My pleasure. Kon Karapanagiotidis: Thanks for having me, Scarlet.Yellow Edge: Thank you for listening to the Wayfinder Podcast for more information on Yellow Edge and our services, including professional development, coaching, strategic support, mediation and venue hire. Visit yellowedge.com.au for more information on the Winston Churchill Trust, visit churchilltrust.com.au.

E04 - Carly Davenport Acker & the Power of the Living Collection

“I think that the way forward is through partnerships. It's not rocket science. It is really about various agencies coming together for shared common cause. And in terms of our own community development needs across the country in the big issues like environmental country change, climate change, that can only be solved through those diverse intelligences coming together. So I think partnerships is the way forward. It really is.” In this episode Scarlet speaks with Churchill Fellow Carly Davenport Acker who works as a cultural intermediary to safeguard and facilitate access of art, stories and knowledge of Indigenous creators and elders. Carly has an extensive background working with not-for-profit education and commercial sectors to engage with Indigenous individuals, communities, and organisations around the world.Carly believes in the power of collaboration, partnerships and local community problem-solving. Learn about some of the work Carly has been involved with in this episode of The Wayfinder Podcast.Visit Carly Davenport Acker’s Churchill Trust Project Page here. Listen to more episodes Podcast Partner S01E04: TRANSCRIPT - CARLY DAVENPORT ACKERYellow Edge: Yellow Edge, in association with the Winston Churchill Trust, proudly presents the Wayfinder Podcast. In this series, we ask high-performing individuals, how they plotted the path to success. Our guests are all Churchill fellows, having been provided the opportunity by the Churchill Trust to research their chosen field internationally. The Wayfinder explores the often-winding parts of how these fellows came to their professions and catalogues the trials and tribulations faced along the way, and now your host Scarlet Bennett.Scarlet Bennett: Hello, and welcome to the Wayfinder Podcast with me today I have Carly Davonport Acker. Carly has an extensive background working with not-for-profit education and commercial sectors to engage with Indigenous individuals, communities, and organisations around the world. Welcome, Carly. Thanks for joining us today.Carly Davenport Acker: Great to be with you Scarlet. Thanks so much to the Churchill Trust. Scarlet Bennett: Carly, you've worn many hats over the years in the work that you do, but I'm wondering if there's a common thread. What is it that drives you in your work with Indigenous communities? Carly Davenport Acker: I would say to that excellent question. There's… it's very much driven on my curiosity of source knowledge. So who are the storytellers? Who are the artists, the Elders, the community leads that have responsibility for bringing that story through to the next generation? That's something that I've been very-- not just curious, but passionate about in learning how those stories are told from ancient past into the future and how is it that digital technology and other means can facilitate that.Yeah. Just to add to that Scarlet, there's probably a few things that really do drive me. I love seeing people's lights shine, and seeing their confidence, literally ignite and grow, and seeing that incredible connection in between Elders and senior people in particular and young people. And the way that the Elders look after young people in bringing those stories through, and there’s such a conscious understanding of walking in the footprints of ancestors and how that messaging and knowledge can come up and into the future for everyone. There's so much generosity there. So I've been driven by being a conduit for such knowledge to come through and who those source providers of knowledge are, and, often revealing or unearthing those people that have actually probably never spoken to a camera before or never share their oral history or family ancestral history or their local story for those people to realize and understand that their own personal story is so important for the national and world context, that their knowledge is invaluable for the globe.It's that remote global two way, you know, sharing and there's so many people that within Australia, there's literally thousands and beyond of people that have never had a microphone or a platform, but their history and their ambition and their aims at a local community development level or for their family or their first nations business is the future. So I love to see that voice and those lights that be coming on and helping that come up and out.Scarlet Bennett: That's just wonderful and so interesting to hear about. Over your 25-year career, working with Indigenous people then, are there any particular roles or projects that stand out as key highlights?Carly Davenport Acker: There's so many!Scarlet Bennett: Probably hard to know where to start.Carly Davenport Acker: I'm very blessed in that I think they would be a couple of hundred plus, but I'm going to just share a couple today to get the context of those roles. And I think firstly as a young professional at the National Gallery of Australia in the mid to late 90s. I had the role of being a researcher on something called ‘Under a Southern Sun,’ a CD ROM project so that might show my age! (laughter)I had the responsibility of researching and interviewing 12 of the 24 Indigenous and non-Indigenous artists of that era, of that time. And one of the Aboriginal artists that I interviewed and spent a little bit of time with was the great Rover Thomas and the painting that was brought up and out was Ruby Plain’s, massacre story, this beautiful ochre that was on show in the Gallery at the time. And as I researched and interviewed him in person-- I was only about 22 or so this that's like 1996. And I learned that the CD ROM would be launched with the first massacre story with an Australian school context. So when you're that young and you realise that those hard stories have not been shared within curriculum before.Ah, it was amazing. It was-- I was daunted. I was overwhelmed. Yet, I was so, you know, lucky to be that facilitator of his story. And that then went on to influence a huge body of work that's been going ever since, really. And just to add into that second role would be as manager of Munupi Arts and Crafts on the Tiwi Islands. And I was there for just over probably two years and three months from 2001 to about 2004… or almost. And that time with the Tiwi people really educated me as to how important ancestral design and story and knowledge are for the new generation and body of artworks coming up and through, especially through the young people.I facilitated Thecla Puruntatameri and wonderful artist called Jean Baptist Apuatimi to access the National Museum of Australia's collection holdings. And whilst I was in there with those two women, a huge box was unearthed and uncovered and the lid taken off. And Jean Baptist looked into that box and she's about 75 at the time. And she got quite teary in her eyes and she looked at us and she's, she said in a very gravelly voice ‘I’d wondered where that went to?!’ And I said, ‘oh, what's all this about?’ And she said, ‘…that was my engagement present back in the sixties, my husband Declan, he made that for me.’Scarlet Bennett: Oh wow. Carly Davenport Acker: Yeah, it was four faces painted on a Pukumani Pole in four directions. So there was four faces, times four horizontal, to vertical going around (total 16 faces). And then she told the story about how it was sold to the nuns at the time. And she was so moved, and so happy to see that particular… special, meaningful object. And to me that …we were just blown away by the power of the living collection, but more importantly, how people make a collection come alive and collections absolutely need people to breathe that knowledge today into them because often they're recorded without that knowledge of the first makers, the provenance of the First Peoples who've actually crafted those things. So that was just two examples, but just to weave back into the Rover Thomas story, that the planning of the seed of that massacre story influenced my entire life because I worked then at the Melbourne Museum and then I lived in Canada for a year or so.And I came back and all I wanted to do was to work in the desert, remote communities. And I just felt that there was just some, you know, something I could do and to help and support, but that actually created a time and a project which was called Ngurra Kuju Walyja, which means ‘One Country, One People’ which created the international blockbuster exhibition called Yiwarra Kuju, ‘One Road’.And that was a six-year project in my role as co-founder, project manager and co-curator. And the whole heart of that project was to unearth the massacre stories of the Western desert through local Western desert Aboriginal lives and voices, which was about 10 language groups in a satellite around the Canning Stock Route, which is a 2000 kilometre track in the middle of the Great Sandy, Little Sandy and Gibson deserts. And so my role as project manager was to bring in those Traditional Owners and artists who could speak for that Country. And we did a six-week trip along the Stock Route with 65 artists and a film crew, and a team intercultural team of about 17. And the artists expanded from 65 to 110, and then on to 243 contributors in a two-year period. And that created the partnership with the National Museum of Australia Yiwarra Kuju: One Road, which has been shown for the backdrop of CHOGM (Commonwealth Heads of Government Meeting in Perth 2011)and the International Olympic Expo in 2008 in China at the Beijin Olympic Games and in five of our capital cities across Australia and there's a global embassy touring, much, much, smaller photographic media show, that's going all over the world. So, it just goes to show that those (First Nation’s) historical stories of Australia, there's so much in which still must be told through First Nation’s worldview and perspective. Scarlet Bennett: That’s absolutely fascinating. Is there a project then Carly, that's still tugs on your heart because you didn't achieve the outcomes you'd hoped for?Carly Davenport Acker: That's such a, that's such a hard question. I can answer you to a certain point Scarlet, but I think I hope this will paint the picture. So I was living in Alice Springs in 2004 and I had the role of being an arts coordinator with CAAMA Radio (Caentral Australian Aboriginal Media Association). And my job was to work to the four town camps around Alice. And to work with all the kids and the young people and come up with an exhibition that would then eventually be shown at the Alice Springs Convention Centre. And that was an incredibly, emotionally challenging project. One, I had to drive the bus in and out of the camps. I had to build the trust of their kids and all their family mob. And then we had to come up with some artwork that was, you know, pretty good for them to enjoy, and their families to come, and for the local community more broadly. Over a several month period, we all came together and achieved that. And Tangentyere Council had a lot to do with making that come to fruition.I think just to build this story-- to answer your question-- when I facilitated that exhibition, which brought a few hundred people and all the kids, and the literal lights on and everyone's eyes-- so happy to share what they had made: whether it be murals or painting car doors, or sculptures, or, you know, so many artworks. I just felt that I wished I had have been the older Carly facilitating such an important project rather than the younger Carly but if anything, there wasn't a problem with, or challenge with it other than my youth, my own youth at the time, facilitating such a unwieldy and challenging, you know, exhibition aim, and under probably tough circumstances as just one facilitator making all that happen. So I'd love to go back and do that again. I’d like to do it now.Scarlet Bennett: But with the benefit of hindsight (laughter)Carly Davenport Acker: I’d like to do it now!Scarlet Bennett: Wouldn’t we all! Wouldn’t we all! But with the benefit of hindsight then is there anything in particular with that, that you would do differently if you were to do it today? Aside from perhaps getting a bus driver? (laughter)Carly Davenport Acker: I would probably throw more resources at it. I think if you were to work with those communities, they truly need the creative industries to be invested in, in a really fundamental way that, you know, 20 years ago that wasn't quite there, but it was scratching the surface of even-- coming in and out of the territory and WA and far north Queensland you know, for the last couple of decades. I still fundamentally believe there really needs to be a bigger, more local and federal policy in investing into the cultural creative industries in remote and regional Australia. Because the kids that are there, the young people, the teenagers, and the Elders really waiting for such projects to harness and share their stories is like, it could be, it just needs so much more investment and flourishing.So if I could change that I would love to. But you know, I think that's part of my plan is. It's to look at how such things could really become the forefront of important policy and investment in the country.Scarlet Bennett: You've worked with culture design, music, and new media to bridge remote and regional industries and livelihoods-- in your experience what are the ingredients for success?Carly Davenport Acker: Oh, look, relinquish control. Often the creative process is, it's not yours to have, or even the organisation that you represent. It has to be a collaboration through the many participants. And if you can create a space to allow that to happen, to actually let control go, so to speak, but have all of those ingredients there so people can interpret and create in a safe and trusted and open environment. Then that's literally where magical things happen. And with that cultural safety, and proper investment, and collaboration and partnerships, literally magic does happen. Extraordinary truth-telling and the honesty, and vulnerability, and generosity of people to share their stories absolutely comes out to the fore.And then it's really just up to those participants and stakeholders and the creative teams to record that and offer it up and out. But based on the intellectual and cultural property of those knowledge holders and those storytellers. There's several ingredients in there, but I think it's more a trust and the willingness for people to engage and to feel like they really, really want to share.Scarlet Bennett: What would you describe then as the biggest challenges when you work in this space? Carly Davenport Acker: I would say… fear, risk and bureaucracy. Those three things, particularly often with bureaucracy when it's woven together with risk management, it often stifles the creative process, or even the trust for partners, stakeholders, and participants to engage.So as, as a facilitator, as a cultural intermediary, which is very much what I've been doing the last 25 years,is to check the investors and stakeholders and local stakeholders and participant’s level of trust and bring everyone together into the same woven basket, so to speak, and to allow for people to express their fear and express their vulnerability. And work through that to tangibly work through what those issues may or may not be, but it's actually being open to even having the space of that cross-cultural dialogue and sharing, and honesty and problem solving that makes partnerships true and strong and genuine-- and last for years.Scarlet Bennett: I understand Carly that you were the recipient of a fellowship from the Winston Churchill Trust in 2013. What did you set out to achieve at that time? And how has this influenced your work and approach since?Carly Davenport Acker: I set out to explore participatory media toolkits designed by Indigenous organisations around the world, and I really wanted to find out what makes participatory learning, using digital media and storytelling, become a vehicle to cross political, digital and cultural divides.And there's probably a secondary, you know, investigation to that research. It was very much how can participatory media conserve diversity, cultural diversity, and also promote cultural leadership within communities. Scarlet Bennett: Can I just jump in Carly? For those listeners who might not know what participatory media is, could you just describe what that is and why it's important?Carly Davenport Acker: Absolutely. Participatory media is founded on cameras and recording equipment, literally being in the hands of local community members to solve local problems. And whether those community challenges could be climate change, or food security, or conflict resolution, just to name a big spectrum there, it takes away that third party intermediary recording. So it really gives the agency and power to local people to say hey, this is going on here and our families, our organisations declare and can see and can facilitate the actual solution. And often all is needed is investment into that space. So it doesn't have to come from outside. The investment can come from outside, but the actual problem solving can - nine out of ten times - happen on the ground in that local space.So the participatory media is the interviewing, questions and answers and editorial of a film sequence that records local people discussing local challenges, issues, realities to camera, and then they themselves tell that story. They edit it and then hand it over to Government or to the philanthropist or the investor.And I was able to see from the not-for-profit sector, the education sector, the government, and you know, that private sector where the innovation really is located also-- how these different kinds of digital storytelling toolkits are actually being used for those big world planetary problems.Scarlet Bennett: And has the learning and what you explored then, has that had an influence on how on the work you've done since that time? Carly Davenport Acker: I would say a 1000% influence of all my work since then. I saw community development at its best. And I've kept in contact with several of those organisations and agencies and institutions and woven those contacts and knowledge into the work that I've been facilitating at National Museum of Australia for several years, as well, based on those contacts and learning.But very much I learnt about the power of collaboration. Which really is a fusion of intelligences, and a fusion of disciplines and approaches. And, and that really, you know, cultural expression is based on that as well. So we have to have a toolbox that is multidisciplinary, not just one or two or three things, but something that can be shared for everyone to access.Scarlet Bennett: You mentioned the National Museum of Australia, and I understand you've recently been managing the Cultural Connections initiative. Tell us about this. I'm curious, Carly Davenport Acker: That's been a nationally award-winning program by an incredible intercultural team that has been advised and guided by two senior Indigenous consultants.And through this small team, we have partnered the National Museum to 10 local communities, councils, First Nations’ businesses, arts and cultural organisations across east coast Australia. It was very much in response to the 250th anniversary of the country from, from a Western colonial perspective. But what the program, the Cultural Connections program really wanted to do was to ask local communities in these 10 areas as to what has the history been? What, how important is it for you, and what are those hard stories today that impact your family and your life? And they very much created incredible initiatives at a community-led local level, whether it be: an exhibition in a botanical garden, or again, filmmaking and digital storytelling, workshops, accessing the Queensland Museum and different collection holdings to then interpret the history and the past from their perspective. And through the last three years or so we engaged I think it was, you know, more than 674 Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander specialists across east coast, Australia, which is a pretty big group of people with power and agency locally. And that was, that was an amazing thing to facilitate. And in addition to that program the Encounters Fellowships program was included and that gives six First Nations Fellows access to the National Museum's collection, as well as our role in partnering those cultural practitioners across Australia to other institutions with our partners, and also back to the United Kingdom and overseas.So literally enabling practitioners to research and locate vitally important cultural material for their family knowledge today, as well as their organisations to then work with and interpret and, and very much a cycle of two-way learning in that museums lack so much information of the true language or cultural information. The way that these collections have been produced is often through unprovenanced historical sources where things, you know, were stolen from the past. So how to bring in cultural practitioners to then tell that story from a local knowledge space really helps museums and the collections, which in turn enables access for all generations to know about our country and its history in a better way.Scarlet Bennett: And I understand you've recently moved into a new role?Carly Davenport Acker: Yes, that's right. I have, I am going to be working with Parliament House and looking at storytelling and nation building from a Canberra perspective, as well as looking at the outreach across Australia. So again, working with the Collections Department and the Schools Department and Public Programming, but being part of a special team that can work at the intersection of those different departments and engage professionals across the country that have contributed into those areas to help share the story of Australia in a really honest and truth-telling way.Scarlet Bennett: That sounds like a fabulous kind of culmination of a lot of things you've been working towards for many years. Carly Davenport Acker: Thanks. Yes, it has.Scarlet Bennett: So, we have discussed things that have been achieved and things you've learned over past projects, but when you look to the future, where's the burning platform for you? What do you think really needs to be done? Carly Davenport Acker: I think that the way forward is through partnerships. It's not rocket science. It is really about various agencies coming together for shared common cause. And in terms of our own community development needs across the country in the big issues like environmental country change, climate change, that can only be solved through those diverse intelligences coming together. I think partnerships is the way forward. It really is. And when you look at say Europe and the United Kingdom, they have such a, such an investment in that space, at a policy and practice level it's really recognised that that partnerships and collaboration is the way forward. And we definitely need to continue into that vein. But also again, through literally - participatory media, the digital media side, it's the technology within the hands of First Nations practitioners and organisations and the power and agency of that that's really going to set, not just the map or the bench-mark,but create the solutions that will ultimately be beneficial for everyone in Australia, if not beyond our shores. Scarlet Bennett: And what is your moon shot in terms of where you personally might be in five years’ time?Carly Davenport Acker: What a question! Look, I would just like to hope that I am still in an engagement role. Whether that's in one small community making a difference, or whether it's in a national cultural institution making a difference. I wouldn't even choose between the two because I've had 25 years moving between -on-the -round community organisations and multiple institutions.If anything, I would love to still be continuing what I'm doing, which is that being the bridge between diverse organisations, as we try to make sense of and solve and improve and, you know, create more wellbeing in our lives. And we're all going to need that.Scarlet Bennett: Yes, yes indeed. So true. Carly Davonport, thank you very much, indeed for joining us on the Wayfinder Podcast today, it's been a real pleasure speaking with you. Carly Davenport Acker: Thank you so much Scarlet. Awesome.Scarlet Bennett: Thank you.

E03 - Alpha Cheng & Changing the Headline

“I started… to think maybe I can also use my story on my own terms to spread positive messages and speak out against hate, and potentially prevent or reduce the risk of similar things happening again.” In this episode Scarlet speaks with Churchill Fellow Alpha Cheng about how he found his voice for advocacy after the sudden and violent loss of his father. Alpha’s father Curtis Cheng was killed in a terrorist attack in 2015. Alpha shares with us how he chooses to messages of hope over hate, full in the knowledge that his, and stories like his, have the power to change communities and policies. Drawing from his experiences abroad in UK, Norway, Denmark, France and Israel, Alpha aims to promote harmony, unity, hope, as a way of speaking out against prejudice and hate. Through this stance Alpha has been able to use his voice to promote change for issues such as gun laws, xenophobia and multicultural diversity. Alpha was a finalist in the 2016 Young Australian of the Year for his advocacy work. Visit Alpha Cheng’s Churchill Trust Project Page here. Listen to more episodes Podcast Partner S01E03: Transcript - Alpha ChengYellow Edge: Yellow Edge, in association with the Winston Churchill Trust, proudly presents the Wayfinder Podcast. In this series, we ask high-performing individuals, how they plotted the path to success. Our guests are all Churchill fellows, having been provided the opportunity by the Churchill Trust to research their chosen field internationally. The Wayfinder explores the often-winding parts of how these fellows came to their professions and catalogues the trials and tribulations faced along the way, and now your host Scarlet Bennett.Scarlet Bennett: Alpha Cheng’s life was changed forever when his father Curtis Chang was tragically killed by a terrorist attack on October the 2nd 2015. I'm Scarlet Bennett, thank you for joining me on the Wayfinder podcast, Alpha. Alpha Cheng: Thank you, Scarlet. Really happy to be here today. Scarlet Bennett: Thank you. I wonder, just to kick off Alpha, give us a sense of who your father was, what sort of man was he?Alpha Cheng: Sometimes it's so hard to capture like someone that's so, so important in your life, so quickly, but I think one thing that described dad was a really gentle really kind person. I think one thing that really stuck with me with dad, is that he's such an incredible family man. Like I think he really kind of works everything for the family- providing my sister and I every opportunity he could afford us, he spends a lot of time with us, helping us and also just even a lot of leisure time as well. Like he would try to like to understand our interests. He'll play like video games with us. He will come play sports with us, whatever we were choosing to do. So someone that's really sort of just dedicated to family and us and yeah, just someone-he's also extremely sort of hardworking sometimes like soft-spoken and yeah, really sort of loved by his, his friends just like in a very, very sort of like loving and doting dad, as I say this, all I can think is how much I miss his presence every day. Scarlet Bennett: Yes, I'm sure. I'm sure you do. It sounds like he was a really, really great dad and a good man in many, many respects. Alpha tell us what happened on the 2nd of October, 2015.Alpha Cheng: Well, from where I was on the 2nd of October, I was actually in South Australia, in McLaren Vale on holidays with a couple of friends. And I remember we, we were walking into a pizza place for dinner. And then my friend was like I got an alert on his phone and he was like ‘oh, there's been a shooting outside the New South Wales Police Headquarters.’And my instant thought was like ‘oh, well dad works there.’ So well maybe we'll sit down, and I'll give him a call see what's happening. And I remember then we ordered, and then I kind of stepped out and gave him a call and I remember going, like, it went straight to voicemail. And then I was like going that’s, that's kind of odd.So I called, I called mum and she picked her up. She was, she sounded worried, and I was like, oh, did you hear what's happening? She's like, ‘yes, I I've been trying to contact, contact your dad for a while, but not getting through.’ And then I was just kind of reassured her. I was like, oh, well probably they've just kind of like blocked all communications. Like I'm sure everything will work out and we'll hear what's happening soon. And then I remember it was probably not even that much longer, probably only about 15, 20 minutes later when I got a call from my sister and I could hear that she was in tears. And I think I sort of knew what was happening. And then my sister was like, ‘have you heard what's happened?’ And she was like, ‘well, the, the police has called me and has formally told me that the person that was shot was dad.’ And that was when I sort of like found out what has happened on that day. And from… what happened was that dad was leaving work on a Friday afternoon as he normally would--Scarlet Bennett: --he wasn't a police officer, was he? Sorry, he worked adjacent?Alpha Cheng: No. So he worked, he was part of the he was a civilian sort of a public servant for the police force. So he worked in the in the finance department with New South Wales Police. And yeah, so he, yeah worked at the New South Wales Police Headquarters in, in Parramatta. And yeah, as he was walking out of the building a 15-year-old boy kind of walked up behind him… and shot him in the back of the head in a terrorist act. And that, from what we've been told and killed him instantly and the 15-year-old boy then turned his attention to the front of the building kind of fired shots that alerted two special constables in the police headquarters. They came out and in the exchange of fire the 15-year-old boy was, was shot dead at the scene as well. And I always kind of say that it's not just one sort of tragedy that was, that was two as well. What as it is for, for myself, it's horrific, but it's, it's also kind of going, what, what brings a 15 year old to, to believe that such an act is in a way a solution to anything. And that, that was an incredibly hard, hard day. I couldn't get out of Adelaide that night. And the next day I flew back to Sydney and went back to our family home. And there were police there. There were a couple of family friends that were there… And it was just one of the most devastating I guess scenes that you could imagine. It's just like mum was just absolutely inconsolable, and you just kind of felt a bit I knew I was a bit numb about like what even to do. I'm still trying to process everything. There's lots going on. There's lots of people around. Then we needed to get briefed by our family liaison officer who was a really amazing sort of police detective, who kind of like talked us through what was going on and what we are expecting to happen over the next sort of like days or so. There's a lot of things happening, we still had to even formally sort of like identify the body and things like that. So it was yeah, thinking back on it's all a bit of a like…like a blur now… Scarlet Bennett: Cause you're in shock. Alpha Cheng: Definitely, as I said in one of those things-- in terms of moments that kind of fundamentally change your life and sort of trajectory-- this has to be, this has to be one of those. Scarlet Bennett: You don't expect that. Do you? Your dad goes to work in the morning, just like he normally does, and then he doesn't come home. What did you subsequently find out about his killer and the reason for the attack Alpha? Alpha Cheng: What we found out was this is a 15 year old boy who had… I think some history of challenges in terms of at school, mental health, support, and was-- I guess you could say like targeted, and I guess you could say brainwashed and sort of like radicalised by a couple of, I guess criminals, thugs. Who are already sort of being watched by police have previous criminal records and they wanted to commit a terrorist act. And they, I guess, targeted someone who was vulnerable, someone that wasn't on the radar to commit like a heinous act. I know that those also like, the perpetrator’s sister that I think a couple of days prior to the shooting, boarded a plane and went over to Syria to be a foreign fighter or, as they say, like sort of like an ISIS sort of bride, so to say. So there was like a lot of things going on. I think we will probably never fully, I guess, understand what was going on behind sort of it all. And I know and hopefully we still haven't had it yet, but a coronial inquest that should be coming up some, some point into the future. And hopefully we may find out a bit more. But I'm not, I guess I'm not sort of like dying to find out more of those sort of details.Scarlet Bennett: Well, it won’t bring your father back will it?Alpha Cheng: No, exactly. Scarlet Bennett: And you know, what was the aftermath like for you and your family as all this sort of information unfolded? Alpha Cheng: Yeah, it was… the aftermath, I think, as I said, it was just, it would just hit so hard, but it also was so public as well. And I remember like, even like the, the first day or two afterwards, I think we were kind of asked, it's like going, ‘you need to put out like a media release from a family's perspective.’ And maybe even like a picture of your father that you want to share with the media. This was sort of my first dealings with, I guess, with media and the public and had to learn very quickly, like what to do, how to respond, what to say, what message do we want to provide. And that was, I guess, a bit of like as the cliche goes, like a baptism of fire—Scarlet Bennett: I could imagine. Alpha Cheng: yeah, exactly. And then also trying to balance-- trying to support mum-- but also I managed like a lot of the things that were happening because it is also like a criminal investigation, and then also family and friends that were also trying to support-- and people that were flying in from overseas and things like that, like family and things like that. So there was lots going on and I just remembered, not even having time to kind of process it for myself, like dealing with everything. And it's been, it's been incredibly hard the months sort of went by. I think it it's taken mum quite a long time to really to sort of, I guess, pick up the pieces and to find herself again.I've had to take sort of some time off work as well to sort of process and deal with what's happening. And so, yeah it does sort of have like a fundamental impact. I think my mental health and my resilience has definitely not been as strong as it used to be as well. But we continue to push through and to rebuild and to potentially even hopefully find some positives from it in terms of my some of the advocacy work that I do in terms of since 2015, but there's definitely a sense emptiness sometimes in terms of reflecting a family that it's like, dad's not, not here and has been kind of like being sort of almost taken away from us in a way we had absolutely no control over.Scarlet Bennett: And I guess at times like this at this time of year, you know, we're recording just in the lead up to Christmas and birthdays, anniversaries, those sorts of things. It's always particularly hard too, isn’t it? Alpha Cheng: Yeah, absolutely. I think in even like every year, I think when October 2nd comes around, it really does kind of does loom large as well. And also like our National Police Remembrance Day, I think it's normally late September as well, so that we get invited to that and that's sort of like amplifies that because that but the, those two events sort of coinciding in quite close sort of dates. Scarlet Bennett: The last thing on your mind when you were preparing your eulogy for your father's funeral would have been public attention… but it got quite a lot of it, didn't it? Tell us about that. Alpha Cheng: Yeah, I think, I'll, like walk back a couple of steps in terms of like, I through some of the press media release and things that we were doing, it kind of led me to realise how what I say really has a big influence on sort of like the mood or sentiment.And I remember when we were going through the original media release that the police media gave us a draft and me and a couple of friends, we kind of sat through and did some of our own edits. We added in some sort of personal touches and things to it. But I remember there was a sentence in there that we, that we changed. The sentence was it was a kind of like a quote it's like ‘we are shocked’ by whatever that's happening. And I remember us changing the word ‘shocked’ to the words ‘heart broken.’ So ‘we are heart broken by the loss of our father or Curtis.’ And I remember when we made that edit, we sent it off and within like, I think 20 or 40 minutes, like the headlines were already up, it says like ‘family heartbroken.’ And that made me kind of go like, wow, if that was the word that was changed. So if it meant that if it wasn't changing the headlines would have been ‘family shocked.’ And I think that creates that sense of very sort of different sort of tone and message. So when I was preparing for the eulogy, I was very highly aware of what type of impact what I said was and I think given like the sentiment and the sensitivities, I always sort of say it's that, and there was no control-- no one was trying to control what I was trying to say as, as well, like no one was doing that. So if anything, I could have started-- I always said that I could have started a riot if I wanted to. I could have been extremely angry. I could've said what I wanted. I could've unleashed a lot of negative feelings and rightfully so, but I made a very distinct choice not to, because I reflected and I go-- this is exactly what the, the extremists, the terrorists, the forces that seek to sort of hurt us in our society, wants us to do, they want us to sow greater seeds of hate or resentment to kind of fuel that rhetoric.So I kind of went, no, we're not going, I am not going to give into that. So I crafted a eulogy that really was not really about what's happened externally, but kind of refocused on sort of the things that really matter: how important dad was in our life, how kind and gentle he was as a person, and what that means to us as a society. We kept it short and sweet and focusing on those elements and not being carried by the waves of negative sort of rhetoric that was really kind of starting to, to manifests itself at that point. I did not realise how far it was going to go or, or how the message was received, but it was absolutely received in a in an extremely positive way.I think all I have to say in terms of the eulogy is really made an active choice to not let the events sort of lead me to a path of anger and resentment—Scarlet Bennett: --and revenge and destruction. Alpha Cheng: Because I reflected back on dad as a person, and I don't think that's what he would have wanted as well. Scarlet Bennett: Yeah, and certainly, you know, the media around the eulogy was very much that you had taken the higher road.Alpha Cheng: Thank you. And I did not like sort of intend to sort of elevate myself in any way. But as I said, like, I think by doing that, it kind of is sort of my act of defiance against those that have inflicted such sort of hurt and pain on dad, on us as a family, and on us as a society as well.Scarlet Bennett: There was a turning point for you I understand in December of 2015/January 2016, that led to some changes. Can you tell us a little bit about that? Alpha Cheng: Sure. I think after the eulogy, after all the sort of the really sort of public sort of engagements that we needed to go through as part of dad's funeral and some of the proceedings around that I think I was like going, okay… maybe just kind of by kind of stay private, not sort of try to ruffle any feathers. And so yeah, I had a lot of sort of requests for media interviews and things like that to share stories or to talk things, and we've kind of politely declined a lot of things as well. And in December 2015/January 2016, I went to Israel on a Holocaust education sort of study tour, which I applied for and got a few months before dad’s tragic death. And a lot of people were saying, ‘oh no, Alpha, don't go. You've had a very like tough sort of couple of months and I think like five weeks of learning about the Holocaust, isn't going to necessarily cheer you up.’ (laughter)Scarlet Bennett: Not the thing to lift your spirits, is it?Alpha Cheng: (laughter) No, no, but and also sort of being in a region where… just a higher risk of—perceived risk of terrorism attacks. And then it's like all yeah, like, think about your mother. You don't want her to worry about these things, but I, again, I was like going, I don't want to let this act change how I live my life and what I think is important.So I went over to Israel and through this study trip we talked to and met with a lot of Holocaust survivors. Survivors that have been through sort of Auschwitz, death marches, hidden in orphanages, smuggled out of Eastern Europe and all sorts of amazing, inspirational and sort of heartbreaking and tragic stories. And all of them who have gone through trauma, which I think are almost many times more than I've experienced were talking about the concept of ‘never again.’ In terms of like and also not using hate and revenge to sort of cloud their stories is that they want to promote harmony, unity, hope, like sort of speaking out against prejudice and hate.And I think those stories and those messages, I think really hit home for me and kind of go like, if you have an ability to, and a potential platform to be able to do so-- to spread these messages-- you should. And it was sort of after I came back from Israel, and having heard all these survivors talk about their stories in such a positive way, that I was started to be… to think maybe I can also use my story on my own terms to sort of spread positive messages and speak out against hate and potentially prevent or reduce the risk of similar things happening again. Scarlet Bennett: And where did that lead you to, Alpha? Alpha Cheng: It led me firstly to, I guess, to have the confidence to accept request for interviews to be on panels. And I never intended it to be, but it sort of like you open one door… Scarlet Bennett: And another opens… Alpha Cheng: and it kind of opens, because I remember like I did one with Channel Nine called ‘In Conversation’ and then that opened the door to, and then 60 Minutes was like going, oh, you've done this one... Like I, and then, so when I did that one, then that was quite influential as well. Speaking with Liz Hayes who was an amazing interviewer as well. And then, yeah, as I said, it led to more doors, more people at different publications or podcasts and events started wanting to speak to me, and it's kind of led to an interesting couple of ways: I was invited on Insight to talk about gun control, because from my understanding, dad was sort of-- the gun that was used was sort of on the grey/black market, and being part of that led to me to lend my voice in advocacy in gun control, and sort of me getting more confident in that.And then there was a lot of political sort of discussions about Muslims and especially Muslim immigration. And my dad's sort of tragic death was kind of pulled into it. It's like going well, if we don't want this to happen again, like this is what happens when we let sort of essentially paraphrasing, this is what happens when we let Muslims in. And then I just could not sort of sit back and hear and let that happen. And it sort of like goes back to what I was I learned when I was in Israel is to, when you see something that you don't agree with in terms of hate and prejudice, you speak up. And so I wrote an op-ed speaking out against it.I guess I did not intend it to be, but it also became like a little bit viral at that stage. It got a lot of tractions and it sort of like helped dampen the escalating rhetoric from there as well. And then the things just kept sort of like progressing, and I was very humbled when I got, what was the finalist for young Australian of the Year. I think this was in 2017/2018. For recognition of some of my work in, in sort of the advocacy and speaking out against sort of hate and division, and that's just continue to open more doors speaking to more people, getting invited to more events and interestingly a lot of these events starting people started asking me questions about, ‘oh, what should the government do to prevent this? Do you have any policy ideas or things to in terms of what you're talking about?’And that's when I start kind of like going, oh, I actually don't have a lot of answers to these. I can talk about from a personal experience, but I'm no expert in government policy, and yes, I've been able to sort of use sort of my platform as a high school teacher at this stage to kind of spread a lot of messages and I think it helped amplify it because I was a teacher of humanities. And yeah, this is just kind of like, I don't think I've fully planned up a path since 2015, but it's as I said, it's just, sometimes you. You open one door and it sort of leads to another.Scarlet Bennett: And tell us how the Churchill Fellowship fitted into that, Alpha?Alpha Cheng: Yeah. And as I was just mentioning and being sort of roped into sort of potential like policy discussions. And I kind of went, I really don't know much about policy and how policy works. And I really wanted to find out more and a couple of friends were like going ‘Alpha, have you thought about applying for a Churchill Fellowship? Because it's perfect for someone like you. Who's got a bit of a passion and a sort of a really strong sort of backstory to want to do like a passion research project.’ And I did some research and I applied, I just said that this is my story. This is what I'm interested in finding out more. I want to see what governments or organisations, or communities are doing in, in different parts of the world to address sort of extremism to prevent young people becoming sort of at risk or radicalised. And also get a better understand of what is my role as someone who's been a victim or a person affected by extremism and terrorism.And I applied because I went to in Churchill information session and they were like, ‘oh yeah, you should apply, normally people don't get it, like the first time around…’ and so I just thought-- okay, do you know what? This might happen later down the track, but I'm just going to throw one in. Just to like get practice of applying and I applied. They gave me an interview, and I was already like going, wow, I've got an interview. And then I did the interview and I was like, oh, that was really great experience. I now know what to do next time I apply. And then they were like ‘congratulations Alpha you've got a Churchill fellowship.’ Go to your go do your research. And I was, I was almost unprepared for it as well. And they obviously thought I had something to add to this field, and I'm tremendously grateful for the opportunity that the Churchill fellowship has given me because as part of my project, I was able to travel to the UK, Norway, Denmark, and France, to go to conferences, to talk to academics, to talk to community groups, and also government departments, program leads and things like that. And it was, yeah, something that I would not have been able to do out of my own accord like the networks and the doors that the Churchill fellowship name can open is just it's just incredible. Scarlet Bennett: What were your key findings? Like in a nutshell, you know, what are the key things you discovered or learnt on your travels, Alpha?Alpha Cheng: Yeah, that's it's so hard sometimes to consolidate like so many meetings and conferences into, into a couple of points, but I think the one that some of the key things to me is that: - one is if we're trying to address like violent or extremists issues is it's focusing on, it's more like a risk based and a behaviour-based approach is better. Is looking at risk behaviours, as opposed to looking at risk groups, especially demographic group. And I think certain countries or jurisdictions have found out very quickly that inadvertently sometimes not even explicitly, but inadvertently targeting demographics of certain groups potentially by race, by religion ends up actually sort of even like exacerbating the situation more than it than it needs to.- I think community engagement and community buy-in is extremely important. If you don't bring the community with you in terms of what government, what law enforcements are doing, that's going to be a challenge. - Another major finding that was of interest to me is how the power of affected voices in this field can be so-- affected being someone who's a victim or has experienced sort of extremism and terrorism-- those voices can be used very powerfully in terms of shaping narratives, in terms of working with communities. And I found sort of meeting other victims and survivors and affected people of extremism and terrorism on my journey, on my Churchill fellowship, I think really empowered me that I do have a voice and I can make a difference in this area. Scarlet Bennett: Six years on, Alpha, how has this changed you?Alpha Cheng: Six years on that's. I think it's, it's changed me in so many ways. I think if I, six years ago, if you kind of go, ‘oh, this is what you would have done and achieving, this is where you will be.’ I don't think I could have pictured that. I think. It's kind of got me to realise that sometimes I also, I need to prioritise my mental health as well.That's been something that I've come to realise in the past couple of years that I need to be kind to myself, slow down a bit. That's really, probably at the same time, a bit of career trajectory as well. I was very happy being a high school teacher. And I think with everything that's happened with a lot of discussions and involvement in terms of policy work that has led me to pursue a potential career in policy. So I have in the past couple of years, I joined the public service and learning a lot and seeing where I could influence or shape sort of advice or decisions… and so that's definitely changed. The biggest change of course is, picking up the pieces of the pain that the past sort of five, six years have been inflicted on us. It's been a huge, like journey, sort of helping mum through all of this. And I think we're with just coming out of the-- we're just probably coming out in, in a lot of positivity, mum recently got a dog which has absolutely transformed her life, and we didn't realise that it was going to make such a big difference.Scarlet Bennett: That's lovely.Alpha Cheng: But yes, and as you said, like every year when those sorts of times when you do get together as a family, like sort of those like sort of like milestone dates, like birthdays, anniversaries, or like festival dates. Like you do kind of going, like, there is sort of that, that emptiness or that missing person that we’re missing very much.We're doing, I think, the best we can. As a family I think we've really tried to like shine a light. We've tried to pursue our lives as, as best as we can. A lot of the times in honour or in memory of my father and like my sister has done really well. Like she's just recently graduated from university and she's doing really great things as a dentist out in sort of like a regional community. Who knows where the next six years will bring, but everything we do in the next six years, I think dad will always be there with us. Scarlet Bennett: That's lovely. Alpha thank you very much indeed for joining us on the Wayfinder, it's been fascinating to hear your story, and I'm just so sorry that it came out of such difficult circumstances.Alpha Cheng: Thank you, thank you very much for having me. Scarlet Bennett: Thanks.Yellow Edge: Thank you for listening to the Wayfinder Podcast. For more information on Yellow Edge and our services, including professional development, coaching, strategic support, mediation, and venue, visit yellowedge.com.au. For more information on the Winston Churchill Trust visit ChurchillTrust.com.au.