Listening to America

#1685 The Presidents and Political Theater

Clay welcomes one of his favorite guests, Dr. Lindsay Chervinsky, back to the program to talk about political theater in American presidential history. Thomas Jefferson walked to his inauguration, met visitors to the White House, including diplomats, while wearing his house slippers. George Washington was able to quell a potential military coup (the Newburgh Conspiracy) by taking a pair of spectacles out of his pocket and apologizing that his eyesight had deteriorated in the long years of the War of Independence. How calculated were these moments of political theater? Were they planned and maybe even rehearsed, or were they more or less spontaneous evocations of presidential character? We talk about all of the early presidents, but end in a discussion of Lyndon Johnson taking the Oath of Office on the tarmac at Love Field in Dallas on the afternoon of JFK's assassination. This episode was recorded on November 19, 2025.

#1684 America at 250: How Did We Get Here?

Clay welcomes Colorado historian Walter Borneman to the program. Borneman has written more than a dozen books, from the events at Lexington and Concord to a soon-to-be-published history of the American West following World War II. He's a public historian with a wide reach. The great question is: where are we as we approach the country's 250th birthday? How did we get here, and where might we be headed? Does a study of American history help us understand what feels like an unprecedented moment in our national destiny? Will we survive this current crisis of national confidence? Clay's conversation includes a discussion of the sweep of the Europeanization of the North American continent, with particular emphasis on the presidency of James Polk, an unapologetic expansionist, and, of course, Thomas Jefferson, who may have been our most intense national imperialist. This episode was recorded on October 28, 2025.

#1683 Writing the American West in a Time of Disillusionment

Clay welcomes eminent western historian Paul Hutton for a discussion of his new book, The Undiscovered Country: Triumph, Tragedy, and the Shaping of the American West. Hutton is a distinguished emeritus professor of history at the University of New Mexico and also the Interim Curator of the Buffalo Bill Cody Museum at the Buffalo Bill Center of the West in Cody, Wyoming. Hutton's latest book attempts to strike a balance between the old, unreconstructed triumphalist view of America's westward movement and the more recent, guilt-ridden academic condemnation of the American experiment. We attempted to unpack the concepts of discovery, manifest destiny, the "Indian Wars," and the mythology of the West, including in Hollywood Westerns. How should America think about its westward movement as the 250th birthday of the United States approaches? This podcast was recorded on October 30, 2025.

#1682 How Do Rivers Work?

Clay talks with Professor Ellen Wohl of Colorado State University about the magical ways of rivers. Professor Wohl is the author of a new book, Following the Bend: How to Read a River and Understand Its Nature. Where does the water come from, and where does it wind up? Why do rivers meander and form S-curves? Does a river have a single source or many capillary feeder streams? As global climate change becomes a central problem of our era, what will happen to the 40 million people who depend on the Colorado for their livelihoods, lifestyles, and survival? How does the United States Geological Survey decide where to pinpoint the source of a river like the Missouri or the Mississippi? Should we expect serious breaches of major dams during our lifetime? Do rivers have legal standing? Finally, do rivers have consciousness and intentionality? This episode was recorded on October 27, 2025.

#1681 Joseph Ellis Returns with a New Book

One of Clay's favorite historians, Joe Ellis, has just published his 14th book, The Great Contradiction: The Tragic Side of the American Founding. His latest volume attempts to make sense of the twin failures of the revolutionary era: the failure to end slavery in the United States and the founders' inability to respect and protect the homelands and sovereignty of Native Americans. How could the founders have been so dedicated to the principles of liberty, equality, and the rights of humankind and permitted themselves to be hypocrites on these fundamental issues? Joe's book is an attempt to chasten some of the wilder claims of the 1619 Project, which argues that America has been a racist and even white supremacist nation from the beginning, and all that talk about the "rights of man" is just self-serving rhetoric. This is not the view of Joe Ellis. This episode was recorded on October 28, 2025.