Listening to America

#1693 Downsizing and Henry David Thoreau

Guest host Russ Eagle interviews Clay about his ambitious downsizing project. For several decades, Clay has explored the world of Thoreau's great book Walden, which calls on us to reduce the clutter of our material lives to open our spiritual arteries. Simplify, simplify, and minimize, says Thoreau. Finally, Clay decided to undertake the purge. So far, he has given away 3,000 books to a public library system in east central North Dakota, with plans to donate at least 2,000 books a year for the next 5 years. The question is, is Thoreau right that there is liberation in repurposing excess material baggage, that one crosses an invisible boundary, and that it is possible in this way to achieve a higher order of being? Towards the end of the conversation, Clay explains how the downsizing project inspired him to make a Mind Map of the authors and subjects that still matter greatly to him. With the help of ChatGPT, Clay produced a manuscript featuring 52 of his intellectual heroes, with appropriate AI-generated portraits of each author. This episode was recorded on January 18, 2025.

#1692 The Crisis of the Public Lands

Clay joins journalist Jonathan Thompson, publisher of The Land Desk on Substack and author of Sagebrush Empire: How a Remote Utah County Became the Battlefront of American Public Lands. Thompson, who is currently living in Greece, begins by providing a European perspective on what is happening in the United States — the assault on NATO, the flirtation with taking Greenland from Denmark, the overreach of the Immigration and Customs Enforcement service, and European bewilderment about America's intended place in the world community. Most of the conversation is about the crisis of public lands in America — the push to open more of the public domain to resource extraction, the calls for privatizing parcels of BLM land in the West, and the recent revocation of grazing permits for the American Prairie Reserve in eastern Montana. And oh yes, the future of the Colorado River. This episode was recorded on January 28, 2026.

#1691 Was it Shakespearean Tragedy or Greek Tragedy?

Clay interviews the award-winning historian Joe Ellis about America's tragic legacy of slavery, and about the dispossession of American Indians from their sovereign homelands. Professor Ellis has often argued that what happened with respect to African Americans was Shakespearean tragedy — in other words, if the better angels of American life had prevailed, things might have turned out differently; but that the dispossession and cultural genocide America wrought with Native Americans was probably inevitable. Clay has repeatedly challenged that view, and Joe Ellis suggested that Listening to America feature a serious discussion of how things might have turned out differently in both cultural intersections. The problem of what Clay calls "the Myth of Inevitability" is that it lets white America off the hook. If it could not have turned out any other way, perhaps we don't need to wring our hands too much. It's a critical discussion of agency and complicity in America's problematic history. This episode was recorded on December 15, 2025.

#1690 Mount Rushmore: Its Back Story and the Continuing Controversy

Clay welcomes author Matthew Davis to talk about his new book, Biography of a Mountain: The Making and Meaning of Mount Rushmore. How did it happen that a mountain in the heart of the Black Hills of South Dakota, in land sovereign to the Lakota Indians, came to be the canvas on which Gutzon Borglum carved four monumental figures in American history: Washington, Jefferson, Lincoln, and Theodore Roosevelt? Should it matter to us that Borglum was a member of the KKK? Why are there no women, no African Americans, no Native Americans carved up there? What is the future of Mount Rushmore, and who, by the way, was this obscure New York lawyer, Charles E. Rushmore, who visited the region in 1885? We give considerable attention to Gerard Baker, the Hidatsa Native who served as superintendent at Mount Rushmore from 2004 to 2010 and revolutionized how we interpret the site. This episode was recorded on November 24, 2025.

#1689 Nat and Mikey Survived!

Clay interviews the adventurous Brits Nat and Mikey, school teachers who got it into their heads to float the entire Missouri and Mississippi River corridor. They began on August 5, 2025, and completed their journey in the second week of January 2026. They floated more than 3,000 miles from Three Forks, Montana, to the Gulf of Mexico, where they pulled their canoe out of the water for the last time. When Clay caught up with them in mid-January, they were luxuriating in a New Orleans hotel. But the big news is that Nat and Mikey's great adventure is not over! They are now going to hitchhike to California, then fly to South America for further exploration. Towards the end of the podcast, they tried Velveeta for the first time, with the usual British condescension towards one of America's great food groups. This episode was recorded on January 18, 2025.