How The Red Pill Can Cuck You

Join Malcolm and Simone Collins as they dive deep into the pitfalls of extreme manosphere ideology, the “wife guy” meme, and the real dynamics of modern relationships. This episode explores the breakdowns of high-profile marriages, the dangers of performative masculinity, and the importance of emotional control and partnership in marriage. With personal anecdotes, cultural analysis, and a touch of humor, Malcolm and Simone challenge toxic narratives and offer practical advice for building healthy, functional relationships.

Malcolm Collins: [00:00:00] the way in which women reduce you and all of your creative and adventurous impulses and render you to a headless quote unquote husband. The ideal husband has put aside in his ideals, all dangerous ideas. The meme term for this is the wife guy. I have seen many men who are already quite mediocre in spirit, debase themselves to a level of slavery for their wives and children. But the point here being is he sees this wholesome marriage and I think many people downstream of the manosphere and everything like that have come to see a wholesomeness, like a wholesome, sweet loving couple as, as a form of humiliation. They, they see it as humiliating to the man because it’s not what Andrew Tate sold them masculinity was.

Would you like to know more?

Malcolm Collins: Hello. I am excited to be here today. Today we are gonna be going over how some people are so red pilled, they cut themselves. And it is. A problem that I see [00:01:00] consistently within parts of the manosphere where individuals develop an idea of manhood and what it means to be a man, which is incompatible with tolerable women wanting to be married to you.

Simone Collins: Tolerable. That’s the key point. Tolerable women,

Malcolm Collins: right? And so, they’ll, they’ll, they’ll go out there and they’ll just be like, women are always like a drain on their husband and like, make their lives worse. And I’m like, like, clearly that’s not the case. Like you’ve, you’re an awesome wife. You, you do way more of both your share of the professional and housework.

You you know, are pregnant with kid number five right now, which you do with a plum. You’re only worried when the kids might have some sort of health issue or anything. You, you know, cook meals with family like clearly, and people hear her talk. She doesn’t, she. You do nag me. I, I will say you do nag me.

Not a lot more recently. But not in a way that’s like her trimester

Simone Collins: doesn’t yield great emotional control if we’re this year, yeah. I remember this from

Malcolm Collins: last time you were [00:02:00] this, this pregnant and she’s really sorry. Yeah. And it really only happens when she has genuine justification, like she’s doing far more of the workload on something than I am.

Note here, , she just gave birth to our fifth kid who is Healthy Tex. , She is with Tex in the hospital yesterday. She gave birth to him, , by her fifth C-section. So very dangerous surgery. We’re very, , grateful that it all went well. , And I am at home playing with our oldest as she recovers in the hospital.

So that’s how intense she is about this.

Malcolm Collins: But the point I’m making here is like, clearly good women exist, right? The problem is, is that if I acted the way that many of these manosphere influencers told me to act, women like Simone would not want to marry me or be around me. And so when these men say all women. Who exists like a wall or whatever, all winner like that have, you know, these, these character traits.

And I’m like, well, I don’t see that in the women that I’ve dated in the past or that [00:03:00] I’m married to. What they’re really saying is the way I act filters for women who act like this. And unfortunately, a lot of these ideas can come out of this, this wider community that we’re a part of. And lead to, we’re gonna go a bit into like

Steven Crowder’s marriage breakdown.

We’re gonna go a bit into Laura Southern’s marriage breakdown. Oh boy. We’re, we’re gonna go a but we’re gonna go all at this from the framing device of an essay. By deep at left analysis, which is a extensively a left wing guy.

But when you begin to hear this article, you will immediately be like, that sounds not leftist at all to me. So like culturally, it’s clear where this came from and I think it’s one of the best examples of this, where he literally argues that he’s gay for like manos fear reasons.

Simone Collins: So he’s the political lesbian of men of, [00:04:00]

Malcolm Collins: I guess, yes.

Simone Collins: That’s crazy. Okay, we gotta get into this. ‘cause I didn’t, I don’t know. I, I figured that women would be political lesbians because in general women are more attracted to dominance versus submissions and care relatively to men, a lot less about primary and secondary sexual characteristics, whereas men are a lot more sensitive to that.

So I just thought like, well, women are political lesbians because they can be. But, but,

Malcolm Collins: but here, what you’ll see, and you’ll hear in what he’s saying is within like the Bronze Age pervert sort of a mindset or something like that. Mm-hmm. He’s signaling something to our community that you would understand is sort of like a, you know, gorilla punching his chest, being like, I, I so manly.

I know words. I know how to say them. And it only works for signaling your status to other men. It repels women. And yet people misunderstand and think that this is actually the way they need to be acting or talking about women. Tra [00:05:00] women are materialists, but I also know if that he’s kind of right about stuff.

Simone Collins: Well, you can be right and end up being a cupped Yes. Political gay man. But continue. So trad women are materialists in the lowest sense of the word. Their goal in life is to identify a worthy male and then browbeat him into submission psychologically abuse him, neuter him, and castrate him. This is a very practical thing to do and a very safe and produces an effective slave society, but is devoid of idealism and heroism.

Malcolm Collins: Modern gaze are a radical extension of this feminine drive towards practical materialism. You see what I mean when I say he comes off as very right wing? Do, he really says he’s left wing again. What well sake about this, he’s attacking trad women here, right? Like he’s saying that trad women are materialists in the lowest sense of the word.

Their goal is to identify a worthy male, then browbeat him into submission. And for many trad women. [00:06:00] Yeah. That’s kind of what they are looking for. They’re not looking for a man they can empower, but a man that they can, in a way, enslave.

Simone Collins: Enslave. Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: When I say trad women, he again, quoting him here. When I say trad women, I’m referring to Steven Crowder’s ex-wife, who claims that the highest duty of a man is to marry a woman and then do whatever she says.

Ms. Crowder is a parody of the trad woman, but she is only saying aloud what many trad women secretly already believe. So what did she actually say? Because first, you know, I wanna get the, the actual information here

Simone Collins: from the horse’s mouth.

Malcolm Collins: She posted on Twitter. The most alpha thing a man can do is marry and be faithful to a good woman for the entirety of his life and be willing to storm the greats of hell to stay married to her.

This was in response to a video by conservative commentator Matt Walsh, discussing marriage as supernatural generated significant backlash and discussion on X. We as many users, interpreting it as promoting an overly sacrificial and one-sided view of men’s role in marriage, though it does [00:07:00] not, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

The, the point here being is she does appear to basically think that and a lot of people are aware of the Crowder and his wife breaking up, but I wanted to start talking about them to be like, this is the type of woman that a man who acts and presents like Crowder is able to, and keep in mind, Crowder is the height.

Of what this type of man is, right? Like presumably he’s gonna have his pick of the litter in terms of, of, of women who will tolerate a man like this. So if you are the very best of what this community can achieve, your outcome, and, and keep in mind that the alternative understanding here is, is Steven Crowder’s is just not a good guy or good husband, which may be the case.

We’ll get into that. But I think that many of his flaws as a partner came downstream of trying to emulate the philosophy of the red pill and [00:08:00] traditionalist version of what a male is. In a way that doesn’t work within a modern context. And it’s very important that we do not do that. Like our goal is not to signal to other people in the manosphere how tough and cool we are.

Our goal is to get married to somebody who wants to improve our lives and works every day to improve our lives and has lots of kids

Simone Collins: more, more. Actually our goal first and foremost is to maximize something we believe has inherent value, and we choose to find a partner because we understand that if you find the right kind of partner and form the right kind of relationship, you will be more collectively effective at maximizing that thing or that collection of things that you value than you would on your own.

Mm-hmm. It’s not even that your goal is to find a wife.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah.

, And, and I’ll note here. We often say like, you’re, you’re often not going to end up in a place better than the advice you’re getting from somebody. So if somebody is a leading figure in like the larger, wider [00:09:00] manosphere scene and they are giving out advice and they can’t keep a marriage past their first two kids that advice has a high probability of leading you to a similar endpoint.

Simone Collins: That’s fair. And even,

Malcolm Collins: and even if you say it’s the wife’s fault, which we’ll get into analyzing how much of it, ‘cause I do think a large part of it is the wife’s fault. He still chose and vetted her as a wife. And the way that he’s acting and the advice he’s giving will lead you to have a wife like that. Like, that’s, that’s all of our responsibility before we got married.

That’s, that’s what the dating phase is for. That’s what the engagement phase is for. People don’t become new people magically after, after that. I, I guess you can say that they tricked you the entire time, but often when I see these individuals, they haven’t been tricked. They were signaling that this is what they wanted.

The couple separated in 2021 after Steven left their home for elective surgery in June and did not return.

Now he says he did not return because he was working on his temper. He purchased a separate townhouse following the birth of their twins in August, 2021. So, when she, if [00:10:00] you’re buying

Simone Collins: a separate house to work on your temper, though, I don’t see, you know, this isn’t like. I’m gonna take a breather and work on myself for like a couple weeks.

You’re buying a house?

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. So while she was pregnant with the twins he basically abandoned her. And these were his first kids, right? So he’s not there for the. Pregnancy, which was incredibly complicated. In terms of the actually having the c-section, ‘cause she had a, an emergency C-section.

Well,

Simone Collins: even without an emergency c-section, pregnancy, the twins are tough and, and they’re very often born premature. It is not, it’s like the hard mode of both pregnancy, the newborn for

Malcolm Collins: them as young kids, you know, he’s not in the area. He says, well, I don’t believe in divorce. You know, I never would’ve gotten divorced except she filed for divorce in December and he hired his divorce attorney in November.

Now you can say he is doing this preemptively thinking that the divorce is going to happen. Mm-hmm. But it wasn’t when he knew that a divorce looked like it was coming down the tracks, he wasn’t all hands on deck. Let me go back to where she’s living because she has [00:11:00] multiple times asked me to come home and help with the twins and try to work something out.

It’s, I’m gonna hire a divorce attorney. Right. So whatever was in his mind was his mindset on this. It led to, to bad outcomes.

My actual read of what led to this is, is he had such a strong belief. Against divorce, like divorces just don’t happen, that he didn’t consider it a possibility as things were going off the rails in the relationship, and so he didn’t work to more quickly correct and address the way things were going off the rails.

Because I think that if you had considered divorce a possibility and you just really didn’t want a divorce, the last thing you would do is when your wife is pregnant with twins, buy a house in a different state and move there. , You, especially if she was asking you not to do that. So, , and then this is what I’m talking about where I’m like, be careful of these sorts of mindsets.

Like divorce isn’t a possibility because it can , , ironically lead to divorce.

Malcolm Collins: [00:12:00] In leaked ring camera video from June 26th, 2021. He berates her at demanding that she perform her wifely duties. But the problem is, is his demands were totally reasonable, like medicating and walking dogs tasks that she claimed she feared were unsafe during pregnancy.

Medicating dogs is not unsafe during pregnancy. Maybe walking

Simone Collins: dogs is if you’ve been ordered on bedrest and it doesn’t seem like he was very pregnant in her things. Plus, I, you saw, I’m sure you saw the footage. I saw the footage. Yeah, the, the famous Crowder ring cam footage. It looks, it’s bad. He’s just being a complete ass.

I think the, the bigger problem for me is I completely lose respect for people when they just angrily berate people. He, he could have said the same things like coldly and with emotional control, and I wouldn’t have had a problem with it it’s when people lose emotional control. That I just completely

Malcolm Collins: like. Well, and I think especially, and this is one of these things where it’s like, can I take her word for it? She does appear to have been being a bee, but keep in mind he [00:13:00] filtered for this, like his presence filtered for a woman who was a bee in the way this woman was a bee.

You know, he chose this based on his criteria of what a good woman is. The problem is that like a traditionalist criteria often lend themselves to finding individuals like this, right? But then also believing things like showing low emotional control is manly. So if we look at his work environment, for example multiple former employees, including at least five, who spoke anonymously, described a pattern of verbal abuse where Crowder would scream at staff and use derogatory language.

Simone Collins: How do people rise in their careers when they behave? So unprofessionally, especially these days. Well, I think because his career allowed him to rise through a sort of online fame where this stuff could be cut out you know, apparently he would yell at people in meetings and stuff like that. Now,

why would these people keep working for him?

Just ‘cause they thought he was making a lot of money.

Malcolm Collins: Often people need to support their families and that’s why, you know, because they’re getting [00:14:00] paid and, you know, but I, I note here that this is, if, if you wanna get like how inappropriate he was accused of repeatedly exposing his genitals to male members in a nonsexual, but harassing member matter such as walking like what in flashing staff as a joke.

There, there was drug related stuff, which I don’t care. And then it’s like, oh, and he had this NDA thing that was really strict, where you could be sued a hundred thousand dollars. I don’t care. People have a right to have NDAs, but yelling at employees you just fire them. If they’re not doing a good job, you just let them go.

Right? Like, I, I think that that for me is like a that somebody could think that that was a, nor like,

Simone Collins: yeah, if you respect your employees so little that you’re berating them, then you’re not a good match. If you’re berating your employees, it’s clearly not working, you should hire a different employee.

Same with a wife. If you have a wife who you’re berating, like, why did you marry them? It, it seems so odd to me.

Malcolm Collins: Well, well, it’s not just that, but I, I just think that this is something that he thinks is a normal way [00:15:00] for a man to act in public. Right. Or, or with his loved ones. And you know, if, if you’re like, oh, Malcolm, like, surely you sometimes yell at employees like Bru one of the fans of the show who a lot of people know on like Discord and stuff like that.

Bruno works for me on a project like you, you can ask him. I I do not I, I would, I, I can’t even imagine thinking it’s okay to yell at, at somebody who is working for me. And then when it comes to raising my voice was my wife. I would only do it if I had first communicated to her that something was dangerous for our shared goals and she was not listening or engaging with the information when it was communicated was out the emotional addition, right?

Like you should be able to control your emotions as an adult. I, I’d also note here that for me as well, the whole thing about saying I wanted to work on a marriage he, he described a marriage ending in divorce at the deepest of personal failure. It’s like, well, if you, if you feel that way, right?

Why [00:16:00] did you hire the lawyer instead of immediately going back and trying to fix things with her? Clearly she wanted to talk this out for a long period where you both left her and financially cut her off. Like you basically forced her hand in this. And I think that this is part of a breakdown that comes downstream of what we are being taught is normal in terms of how you source partners in a mano spheric culture.

And I think that we also saw this with Lauren Southern. So, was Laura Southern, the relationship deteriorated into what Southern described as abusive and toxic. She reported verbal abuse such as being called worthless, empathetic, daily, worthless, empathetic daily being locked out of the house and being.

Abandoned with her infant son for days. Sometimes in bad weather, that’s completely a non-issue if he had a job that took him out. But and being locked outta the house could have been an accident that she’s over doing. But being called worthless and pathetic by your husband [00:17:00] ever is a really big deal.

Like, as a culture, you should know to feel shame about that. Like we should be building a culture where a man would be horrified about anyone ever finding out that he called his wife worthless. Empathetic. Yeah. That

Simone Collins: sounds like Stanford prison experiment stuff. It doesn’t sound like what you would do to anyone who you wanna work with.

Like if you’re trying to, to torture and demoralize a, a victim at a black ops site, probably. But this, yeah. Yeah. I don’t know. Like, could, could this be some misinterpretation of like military basic training? Like I have to break you down in order to build you up. Like what is this coming from? Where is the logic behind this?

Malcolm Collins: So I think within the type of manosphere content that was originally created by people like Andrew Tate this idea of being this growly, angry person became associated with masculinity that people began to confuse anger with [00:18:00] muscular.

Simone Collins: Hmm.

Malcolm Collins: And we’ll actually go into this because later in this piece that I’m gonna keep reading, the guy describes like what he doesn’t think masculinity is.

And it is the wife guy who a lot of people online have been making fun of.

Simone Collins: Who is this, like his username? The wife guy?

Malcolm Collins: No wife guy is like a meme these days. I’ll put a picture on screen of what a wife guy looks like. It’s a husband who genuinely loves and appreciates his wife. It’s the guy who you know, and there’s lots of memes about this.

Speaker: woke up one day. I’m a wife guy. A change from a playaways at the right time. You can never know how you grow in your life. Now all I talk about is how I love my wife. I can’t believe that I turned into a wife guy. Fries. Happy wife, happy life type . That’s a saying that I just came up with.

A lot of y’all love your wives, but I love her the most. I’m currently working on an anniversary post.

Malcolm Collins: Like, you know, the, the, the wife making demands that are [00:19:00] normal of wifes to make of their husband and the husband sweetly deciding to do it, right. Any subservience to your wife is often seen as a negative thing or any degree of capitulation or I even sort of say wholesomeness, like it’s, it’s, it’s being wholesomely, married.

Is not masculine to these people. And, and is that not true? You, you look downstream of the Andrew Tate’s world is being in a, a genuinely wholesome marriage, right? Like where every day, I mean, how many I loves yous do you think you get per day? For me, I

Simone Collins: 12 on average maybe?

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. Probably 12,

Simone Collins: 13. Something around conservatively speaking here.

Malcolm Collins: Okay. How many like genuine mean? How often do I genuinely like meanly criticize you?

Simone Collins: It’s been like two years since the last, so

Malcolm Collins: not frequently. Yeah. Yeah. That makes me a wife guy because I’m not asserting dominance over you constantly. Mm. I think a [00:20:00] lot of this came downstream of this obsession was dominance.

Whereas as the point of dominance then again though, like am I constantly trying to undermine you, is the leader of this family And it sounds like these women kind of are, but. You didn’t because you, when I was looking for you, and if you read our book, like the prag guided relationships, when you come outta that, you’re gonna find a wife like my wife.

Because you understand that what you’re looking for is somebody who respects you and respects your shared vision, right? Who isn’t trying to, I think a lot of this bad behavior comes down from the man seeing his life goal is filling a role, IE the role of the man or the husband and the wife’s role in goal in life is supposed to be, to be the wife.

You know, and if you see these as your individual roles in life, instead of making some wider change in society, raising good kids, everything like that, it’s much more easy for these sorts of incurable differences to arise and also you to not feel like a man when you subvert this man-like action for something potentially bigger.

Simone Collins: Hmm. So to [00:21:00] continue with the piece here, feminism by contrast, is a relief from slavery because the feminist with her short blue hair and unshaved armpits is less seductive, less deceptive, less effective, and entrapping. In ensnaring men feminists upon inspection are porn addicts with the desire to be choked and spanked and abused in all sorts of violent ways.

Malcolm Collins: This is degrading and unpleasant, but it is morally superior to the trad woman. There is a beautiful point. What if feminist are super anti-porn? I mean, I guess tra women are too, but where is he getting this? He’s talking about urban monoculture women. Not, oh,

Simone Collins: just like mainstream romance, novel readers, book talkers,

Malcolm Collins: green, blue hair, you know, polyamorous, et cetera.

But I, I, I. There is a biblical story where in a Jewish woman, I think her name is Ru Seduces, one of the many inner enemies of Israel. Notice I wouldn’t be getting my Bible this wrong. I’m quoting the guy here. While he is sleeping, he cuts off his head or drives a nail in it. I may be confusing two different stories here, but the Bible [00:22:00] is full of repetition, but the story is metaphorical for the way in which women will cut the head off your penis physically.

Then they will reduce you and all of your creative and adventurous impulses and render you to a headless quote unquote husband. The ideal husband has put aside in his ideals, all dangerous ideas. The meme term for this is the wife guy. I have seen many men who are already quite mediocre in spirit, debase themselves to a level of slavery for their wives and children.

Why sour grapes Much? Yeah. Why don’t you Google wife guy so you can get an idea of what’s being talked about here. .

Simone Collins: Oh, so just a husband is there for his wife and

Malcolm Collins: yeah, sort of unabashed enthusiasm for your wife and marriage and willingness to compromise and, and a desire to please her and, and be a, a good guy. God forbid. The ideology of of the wife guy is justified with the theology of Traditionalism, which states that God wants media, Christ to reproduce as much as [00:23:00] physically possible.

This is a gross and disgusting ideology, and its adherence deserve only humiliation, which they gladly receive. Washing and sucking toes, making themselves into fools, speaking in tongues, being fat, engaging in hysteria. Conspiracy theories about globalists having sex with 17-year-old prostitutes. Well, I mean, that’s not a conspiracy theory.

That’s. Something that, like on the record happened maybe we haven’t found everyone eng engaged with it, but it definitely happened. But I guess the point he’s making here is why should you even care? It’s 17-year-old prostitutes humility and humiliation for these people. Wait, your point is, as

Simone Collins: long as they’re being paid fairly

Malcolm Collins: well, he’s just like, they’re close to the age of consent and, you know, people really, I, I don’t, I can understand how somebody could just be like, whatever, you know?

It might not be my opinion, but I, I can understand, you know, where somebody is coming from. But the point here being is he sees this wholesome marriage and I think many people downstream of the manosphere and everything like that have come to see a [00:24:00] wholesomeness, like a wholesome, sweet loving couple as, as a form of humiliation. They, they see it as humiliating to the man because it’s not what Andrew Tate sold them masculinity was. It’s not, well, this sounds so

Simone Collins: similar to the feminist stuff we’ve read about marriage too, that it’s humiliating and degrading that, you know, I I this could easily have just been word swapped.

Malcolm Collins: Yes. For for being a woman. Yes. Then skipping part of the story here, humiliation before God is recognition that in any place at any time, you might become possessed and a slave to a higher power, which will compel you towards acts of insanity. For some higher purpose beyond comprehension, the most humble are the most open to salvation.

And these men are heroes. But the TRAs has reduced humility to the nine to five job changing diapers, all sorts of other petty humiliations, the TRAs worships, biological children and the wife, and most absurdly vain repetitions. And this is the [00:25:00] thing, I think it’s the type of guy who doesn’t wanna change his kid’s diapers.

Who sees this as, as making him no longer a man. Right. Like, well, and also like, if you really don’t wanna change diapers, you don’t have to. I mean, when’s the last time you’ve changed a diaper? It’s been years at this point. Honestly, it was only early with our first kid when we were sharing all of our roles.

And now you always do the young kids and I do the older kids. Yeah. Like there are ways, if you have concerns about specific elements of marriage or if you’re like, you know, I really don’t wanna be this kind of husband and I really don’t wanna, you know, when’s the last time you sucked my toes? Malcolm?

Simone Collins: Like, neither of us would consent to that at all. Like, I don’t know, I just like the, these things that he perceives as normal. But I think that they see it as a package. Yeah. They see the wholesome doubling husband on their wife. He must also suck her toes. He must also change the diapers. He must also, you know, they, they, they, they, they, because [00:26:00] they see life as not about in states, but about roles that you’re serving.

Malcolm Collins: Oh. They see some parts of a trope that they can apply to me and assume that I must be optimizing for the entire trope instead of just focusing on a higher goal. Which is, you know, obviously the advancement of human society and, and raising kids who can contribute to that and expand my genetic line.

But she is reframing as unmasculine, having and caring for babies. And, and it is true was in Andrew Tate world, baby care is deeply unmasculine, right? But it’s what the genetically successful people end up doing. I can actually

Simone Collins: see Andrew and Tristan. Really getting stoked to play with toddler or so.

Like crawl on or Yeah. I could see them secretly

Malcolm Collins: being pretty sweet and not wanting wrestling.

Simone Collins: Yeah. I think I, I could see them as being really sweet dads, but like, they would never let anyone know.

Malcolm Collins: Well, and that’s, that’s part of the point, right? Yeah. Like they don’t wanna and then skipping a bit [00:27:00] here the majority of people have always been lowly and evil.

And so marriage has always had this humiliating, ludicrous quality for them. But the masses are excluded from good history. And so when we learn of the Greeks and the Romans and the. R vs. And even the Israelites, we learn of marriages of a different quality. When we read about these ancient people, we see marriages, which did not inhibit the men who entered from into them, but inspired them to great deeds.

Specifically the Moha. Bharata demonstrates the way in which wives were one through contest, the s Marva. And in the Rahma, Rama competes a tour of duty, slaying the forest dwellers before he marries in the Odyssey. The attempts to court the wife of Odysseus all involve contestants and competitors, and Odysseus reclaims his throne by slaying all the suitors, the aristocratic form of marriage.

He didn’t

Simone Collins: have to, I mean,

Malcolm Collins: I mean, they thought he was dead, that that was being kind of Yeah. Truly on their part, but [00:28:00] it, it, it works. Okay. That’s morality of the time period. Somebody saying, on your wife, you gotta handle it, right? I mean, yeah.

Simone Collins: Yeah. Let off some steam too. Why not?

Malcolm Collins: The aristocratic form of marriage involves contests.

There can be no marriage without it. The traditionalist concept of quote unquote marriage at 18 preceding any great deed or life risking, is a utilitarian, pragmatic, and mediocre inversion of form in the Aris. So I, I find that very interesting that he’s like, well, we don’t fight for marriage enough anymore.

Which I don’t dis I, I disagree with pretty strongly. I think finding a, a wife today is much harder than it was to find a wife in ancient Greece. I, I think that or, or ancient Israel or, or pretty much any other time in human history. Well, yeah, because also

Simone Collins: in the past, as people in our comments have pointed out like the average number of even potential partners, you know, people of the opposite sex that were around your age, maybe there were four, and, and, and you typically married someone who like lived within four miles of you, and these weren’t.

Dense [00:29:00] populations. These weren’t large. Well, I mean, finding

Malcolm Collins: a wife in today’s world is difficult. Like, like it’s, it’s a, and today it’s an needle and a half

Simone Collins: situation. It’s a mess.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. You’re not, you’re not going out and fighting a war. You’re having to go out and date some of the most d depraved humans that have ever existed on earth.

Simone Collins: Yeah. One person, when we talked about the rise of marriage pointed out that maybe, maybe what’s going on is people have found out that dating culture today has become so aversive. Now marriage just seems so much better.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. Make dating so bad. Marriages is better anyway. Yeah. So in the aristocratic form of marriage, the woman is judge of the contest.

Alternatively, she’s a victim of kidnapping, which itself is a ritualized context in which the noble man steals her away in his chariot, which is then chased by the police. And if he escapes, the woman is rightfully his. This is called the Nia, sacred among the tic people, but later demonized by the Dian priests.

Even if we see elements of contest in [00:30:00] modern society, what follows is a deviation. The ancient marriage of Arjun and Odyssey demonstrate a disregard of any norm of cohabitation. The idea that a husband and wife should share a bedroom is absent. The idea that they should share a house or even a country is neglected.

The purpose of a wife is to be impregnated and to raise children, which I agree you, you can do this today. You know, we don’t share, my wife and I don’t share a room or a bed. Her job is having kids. She has a kid a year, like she’s doing it. Okay. Like these women exist, you’re just not finding or making them.

Right. Well, that’s the point

Simone Collins: you made at the very beginning. You know, they’re not going to find the types of women they actually want.

Malcolm Collins: Yes. The, the way that they have constructed themselves would be repellent to a woman like you. Mm-hmm. You know, if a Steven Crowder like approached you on a dating app or something, would you date him?

Like would you even.

Simone Collins: No, and I, I dated people [00:31:00] who talked about being felons very openly

Malcolm Collins: there. What would be the, what would be the red flag that you’d be like, no, I’m not gonna date this traditionalist conservative. Like what?

Simone Collins: A a a lack of demonstration of intellectual engagement that comes from a place of not respecting me intellectually, plus anyone who were, were to berate me or belittle me.

Malcolm Collins: But he, he goes out to public campuses and debates people, like clearly he’s an intellectual. Yeah, I don’t know. I mean, we’ve met many people who, for whatever reason, and this includes some of the smartest people in the world who I don’t know what it is they can even have female coworkers that they, you know, respect intellectually and work with actively.

Simone Collins: But then as soon as they are romantically involved with someone, or they classify them as like, this woman I’m dating, suddenly they become this completely different class of person who’s only good for, [00:32:00] you know, having kids and, and being like, figure

Malcolm Collins: Oh yes. And it really messes up the person who we’re thinking of their life is completely effed up because of this.

Yeah. ‘cause they’ve, they seem to be unable to genuinely respect somebody who they are having sex with. Yeah. Like as

Simone Collins: soon as it’s, it’s, you know, like the, the heart emojis there, the Facebook official, like whatever it is. Like, it just, I don’t know. And, and so I, I think, you know, yes, I agree that, that Crowder is capable of intellectually engaging with people, I’m sure of all backgrounds and sexes and genders.

But I, I think there are just some men who think.

Malcolm Collins: I just don think the tra framing works. Like I do not think that that that quality women, well, and I don’t even think

Simone Collins: it’s tra right? I mean, like we know what, what historically has happened in most arrangements that are marriage adjacent, which is you have people forming long-term, logistical and economic family bonds.[00:33:00]

To survive because it, it increases their odds of making it to old age and having lots of kids and being safe and not dying or starving.

Malcolm Collins: Right. But the, the point here I’m making is, I think the thing that turns off women like you, and I think many people in the red pill need to be like diaspora, need to be aware of this.

Is, is is people may look at me and they’re like, you look soy or something like that. And what they, they, they often mean is, I’m not buying into this over trad framing of myself. And I think that what the trad man wants, unfortunately they also filter themselves out of, because the type of woman that wants to like intellectually support and, and help you, rather than be this kept trad dove.

Simone Collins: Here’s how I would put it. Instead, they are marketing as though they’re selling to Grindr. When they need to be selling to Bumble. They are, they, they think that they need to aesthetically for, if we’re talking about the aesthetic angle of it right [00:34:00] now, they’re doing a better job of appealing to gay men per this like red pill, masculine aesthetic than they are at appealing to women.

Malcolm Collins: Well, I are, look at this guy, this gay guy right here who’s like, I love this aesthetic.

Simone Collins: I mean, ‘cause it’s, it’s a great gay aesthetic. And I mean it’s, it’s, I, I can appreciate it from a technical execution standpoint, but I appreciate the same way that I appreciate excellent drag queen execution, if that makes sense.

Like, I don’t wanna bang it. And when you look at fan fiction and what tons of women online obsess over, it’s typically not the same body type that you see selling really well to gay men. Yeah. Does that make sense? Yeah,

Malcolm Collins: it’s true.

Well, and so to, to keep going here, the closest approximation to this idea today would be for a noble man to impregnate a woman, leave her and pay child support for 18 years with occasional [00:35:00] visitations.

This is the most aristocratic form of child rearing, not the domesticity imagined by the Travis. There is nothing noble about changing diapers. No amount of shaming or hysterics or threats of hell fire will change this. And, and that’s, that’s within his framing of, of nobility, like within his framing of masculinity, right?

His

Simone Collins: framing of trashy ability. Men weren’t seen as respectable when they had b*****d children who they were paying for.

Malcolm Collins: Right. But what he’s saying is you used to just like, have kids and then like you’d have staff to raise the kids or something like that. I, I cut out, I didn’t wanna go too far into this, but,

Simone Collins: oh, okay.

So he was implying there was marriage involved there.

Malcolm Collins: Something like that. I don’t know. Not that part really. I mean, look, look, he’s basically saying you cannot fit this image of masculinity I have while you are married and raising children in a healthy relationship.

Simone Collins: Hmm.

Malcolm Collins: And I think that he’s saying it’s so clear cut here that you can maybe be shaken up enough to see what he, he means by this.

If, if you [00:36:00] are one of these people who bought into this and you’re like, oh, here, somebody’s just coming out and saying it. If we want to be masculine in this trads way that we’re being masculine the, the, the real maxing of that comes from not marrying at all and then just being gay.

Simone Collins: Yeah. It, it sounds like per this formula, if we’re gonna optimize, donate a ton of sperm, which you basically have to lie to do and never marry women.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah.. Having thoroughly attacked the TRA vision of matrimony, I would like to go be good to also discuss the problems of modern gay and contrasted with the ancient Greeks.

Modern gays are weak, skinny, fat, obese, materialistic, fashionable, acne ridden, and diseased skinny fat. I’m sorry, have you, not all, not all. Not all, but most. Has he been to Provincetown recently or where is he looking? He goes, I went to a gay pride event in San [00:37:00] Francisco and all the men were fat, weak, disgusting, and old.

There were no handsome tweak bodybuilders. There was nothing erotic at all. It was like walking into the YMCA locker room was a bunch of naked hairy boomers. Yeah,

Simone Collins: that’s ‘cause no one goes to pride event anymore

Malcolm Collins: themselves before his body degenerates into that state. Now note here he’s arguing here that he’s a closeted gay man.

He’s not an openly gay man, but the the point here being is Simone, I think you’re remembering gay culture from when we were younger. I actually think it has deteriorated significantly, especially in the, the core center of the urban monoculture. ‘cause you could already see stuff like this. It’s a false, I disagree.

Simone Collins: Are gay friends who I follow on Instagram look, but they’re conservative gays? Are they? I’m pretty sure they are. Maybe they’re traditional Catholics. Oh, I’m, I’m actually referring to other gay friends. Oh yeah. And they’re all, all of them are, are hot and fit. So. I don’t know what to say.

Malcolm Collins: I think a lot of what we call normal gaze or hot and fit.

Then to skip a [00:38:00] bit more here. Most tram and modern gay are forms of slavery in the first case, tram enslaved society to the role of the mediocre, so that the median rules over the excellent adventurers are put to halt and domesticity rules overall. In some cases, it is possible to have some degree of tram, so long as exceptions are made.

Spain during the period of the conquistadors had somewhat normative trads among the lower cast, but also dedicated billions of dollars to the adventures of single men. Modern gay is a more severe form of slavery. Since there is no escape from the budgie, one cannot flee across the ocean and lay waste to foreign shores.

Budgie will come to you bearing human rights and no, he had a screed here about how buttigieg his marriage was too wholesome because he’s gay, married, and has kids. Oh, how dare he. He doesn’t like this. He sees this as unmasculine.

Simone Collins: So any, any form of, of marriage and having kids, any form of biological success is, [00:39:00]

Malcolm Collins: yeah.

Well, and this is why I, I, I bring this up for our audience is to try to shake them out of this if they have bought into this version of tram. So that they don’t get trapped in one of these marriages where their partner doesn’t respect them. And instead of just trying to be the most housewife of housewife or the most husbandy of husband rather than work with them towards a common goal.

And then finally here, he says dot, dot, dot, because I took out a section here. This is still difficult since the mig tau and the red pillar is lie, and it is easiest to get married between 23 and 26, not at 33. This is very true. This is because most women prefer a partner was in two years of their age.

And by the age of 33, the dating market shrinks considerably to single mothers heartbeats, antisocial hags, and women who are forever who for whatever reason failed to attract and hold a mate during their prime years, 23 to 26 to date a younger woman. This requires overcoming certain hurdles. The kind of women who date older men are distinct from other women.

Whether this is good or bad, [00:40:00] I will not say here but young women, so I actually agree a lot with this advice. You need to marry young, young, young, young, young. It, I know it’s difficult, but the, the, the choice pieces women get taken off the market early. I mean, we started dating how old I, it was on the older end for me.

Simone Collins: I was 24 and you were 25.

Malcolm Collins: So we were you know, he said, you need to get married between 23 and 26. We were right there at the, the, the age range that he’s talking about, right? Like, this is when you have to lock it down. And if you look at my brother, it was when he was a freshman in college, right?

Like, in fact, I think about everyone in my family who’s married almost all of them started dating their partner before the end of college. It is very, very, very difficult to find somebody after that as a man, right? Like I understand the market dynamics tilt in your favor and you can get more random sex.

If you’re a three, 3-year-old, that’s fine. Yes, you can get more random sex but it is not with women you want to settle down with. And people just [00:41:00] don’t think well, and

Simone Collins: you don’t want to child. I, I think that’s no, but like people seem to miss that

Malcolm Collins: if you are a woman and you. Want kids, you’re gonna try to find a guy who will give you those kids, like as soon as you, you get on the market, right?

Because they’re dealing with a, a higher ticking clock and everything like that. Like if you are open to this sort of agreement, the types of things that you need to agree to, to get married as a woman some guy will have asked, Hey, are you okay with these concessions if you marry me before you are like 25.

Simone Collins: That’s what I wonder about. With Crowder though, like in terms of going back to the beginning and, and how his relationship fell apart, I feel like this is mostly downstream of them have v having very different expectations about what marriage was gonna be like and they just didn’t Yeah, I think they were both like, yeah, we’re rad conservatives, we know how to do marriage, right?

Divorce, under no circumstances, we’re gonna have a big family. And then because they didn’t [00:42:00] hammer out their terms, they didn’t have a marriage contract, they didn’t have agreements here. She is heavily pregnant with twins and believes that someone else should be, you know, feeding and walking the dogs, and that she should just be feet up in bed, relaxing.

And he believes that she should be feeding and walking the dogs and cooking dinner. And neither of those expectations and isolation is a bad thing. I mean, they’re valid expectations. The problem is they didn’t discuss them ahead of time. Yeah. And then they just got mad at each other for not reading each other’s mind and knowing that that’s, you know, how they came in.

So, yeah. Well, and then, and then he responds to her expectations with yelling and that Yeah. Like, that’s gonna fix anything down. The communication, because now you’re communicating with emotion rather than logic. Mm-hmm.

Malcolm Collins: And I think a lot of this comes down to, yeah, not having a marriage contract. You know, the Pregnant Guide for Relationships Read it.

It’s one of our first books you can buy for like a dollar. The ebook version, it’s not expensive. So check it out. Also got audio books for that. But to finalize here, here he is giving young women advice, [00:43:00] but for young women, I will advise this. Do not seek older men. Consider Mark Zuckerberg’s wife.

She’s nothing special. If she had waited very long, she would not have had the opportunity to marry a billionaire. She was. Too much complication. She became a doctor and she went to Harvard. Nothing special, but she recognized his greatness when they were both young and she used her abilities to ensnare him.

And now they are secure. Buy your bananas while they’re green. Not when they are ripe. I have seen this with too many women as well, right? Like I, I, we have our younger female audience members marry young as well. You guys need to marry younger. And this is the advice I’ll be giving our kids. And I think all of us who are watching this and have kids, the advice and expectation should be, you should probably know who you’re gonna marry by 23.

Like that’s, that’s the window of when you need to start panicking. If you, if you hit 23 and you don’t know who you’re gonna marry, you have seriously effed something up. And a lot of our fans can be like, well, I’m older. What, what advice do you have for me? And I’m [00:44:00] like, well, this isn’t for you. A lot of our audiences like married and has, we still try, still try.

I try. Yeah. Obviously try. All you can do is try. But I, I mean, I see if, if you’re like, well, I’m a, you know, 25-year-old guy and I don’t need to, I, I can wait until no.

Simone Collins: Oh yeah, no, that’s, that’s nonsense. Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: So, because then we hear, we hear some of our, you know, if, if, if you, if you plan to be married, it’s okay to not be married and not have kids.

Like that’s fine, right? Yeah. Mm-hmm. Maybe you’re just not meant to be part of the human race going forwards. Right? Like that’s, that’s a choice that we all get to make. I’m not saying you have to do this, but I’m saying don’t say I’m going to do this while taking actions that are out of line with what somebody would be doing if they were actually going to do this.

Simone Collins: Yeah, that’s fair. And I I have to say, I like in part, I read what he’s saying here and I’m like, you have been so incepted by this, that. [00:45:00] You have defined a good life, not as raising the next generation, but as filling a iteration of masculinity. But you’re not wrong to do it that way within the culture of the male internet right now.

Malcolm Collins: Like I can see how you came to these cultural norms and thought that they were good’s preaching a logical conclusion. It’s just very myopic. Yeah. And his advice is also not bad for people who aren’t him. He’s almost like, I missed the window here. Right? So this is my advice for people who missed the window, but if you didn’t miss the window here’s my advice for you, Mary Young, and be very disciplined in how you choose your partner.

Totally. Marriage advice I’d give here, by the way, for, for choosing someone you can know who you’re going to, like if some, you, you should, you date. The purpose of dating is vetting whether or not you want to be married to the individual. Right. Have kids with them. Spend your life with them. That doesn’t take five years to [00:46:00] do.

That takes a few months to six months to do. If someone’s been dating you for like, more than I’d say a year and they’re unwilling to commit to an engagement I would say that they’re not serious about it. And there’s a lot of reasons why somebody might be.

Simone Collins: Yeah. I feel like six months, if, if you’re looking to get married and you’re with someone at the six month mark, if you are not either, okay, I’m gonna break up with you now or we’re getting engaged, something is, is deeply wrong,

Malcolm Collins: deeply wrong.

The only caveat I would make on this is if you are very young

Simone Collins: oh yeah. If you’re like maybe 17.

Malcolm Collins: So my brother and his wife, he met her first day, freshman year of college. And they didn’t propose until. I wanna say sophomore or junior year? No,

Simone Collins: no, no, no. It was, it was their senior year, I think, because their parents were in town for graduation.

Malcolm Collins: Oh, was it senior year? So four years. Yeah. But that’s, I’m pretty sure [00:47:00] if, okay. If you’ve been doing, no, I feel like that’s the, that I would be

Simone Collins: proud if our kids did that in the college way of like, we’re not, you know, we’re gonna wait until graduation. I’m okay with that. ‘cause people do grow a lot in college.

There is however, a benefit to having kids while still at uni. So, yeah, either way, you know, but I don’t think. You know, they, they still were committed to each other so early, they were seen as so precocious compared to other kids and people who did get married younger than when they got married. Mm-hmm.

People we know have told us just how socially difficult it was for them. It was basically social suicide. People acted like they were crazy, people stopped talking with them. I think an underrated thing that we don’t really talk about is, okay, we, we can recommend this until the cows come, come home.

But what these people are facing is still a huge amount of social prejudice when they do the right thing. So here’s this guy saying, oh, get married young, and you know, all these people and, and we are saying this, that it’s a really [00:48:00] good thing to do. This doesn’t change the fact that if someone does that today, they are going to be socially punished.

Malcolm Collins: I think that’s changing. We’ll see, I think trad iss coming back, but real trad, not this like, you know, signaling sort of trad, but a wholesome trad, I guess I’d call it. Instead of grizzly trad grizzly trad. They act like

Simone Collins: performative anger and masculinity, trad,

Malcolm Collins: performative masculinity, trad versus, you know, dad maxing.

Simone Collins: Okay, I could see that. Yeah. There, there’s a, yeah, I guess just a, a return to functional marriage, you could say. I wouldn’t even call it trad. I just would call it a return to functional marriage. ‘cause that’s what it is. It is people marrying the way that people have traditionally married. But I feel like the word traditional or rad has just become so corrupted by aesthetics and performative gestures that aren’t even [00:49:00] traditional, that we can’t use it anymore.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. Well, I have enjoyed talking to you. What’s for di? We’re gonna reheat the endang tonight.

Simone Collins: Yes, but I’m not gonna put garlic on it tonight ‘cause we have meetings tomorrow. So instead

Malcolm Collins: oh God put so much garlic on my food the other day and I was like, I’m really sorry I had it in my thoughts.

Well, at least I’m not gonna be seeing anyone anytime soon ‘cause I Yeah, but you’re not.

All right, well, I’m gonna do some rendering with I guess the, the, the bread stuff that you made yesterday. Mm-hmm. And that should be it for me.

Simone Collins: Yeah. And I can toast it. I’ll just toast it with butter and some like kosher salt for texture. Sound good?

Malcolm Collins: Sure.

Simone Collins: Or just plain. Do you want it just plain,

Malcolm Collins: plain rendering is a very flavorful dish.

That’s true. And you don’t, that’s true. Need to put flavor on something if it’s being used as a,

Simone Collins: a, an absorbent sponge of rendering ness. Right. Yeah. Then we’re on, I’ll be so much Malcolm, and I’m, [00:50:00] I’m really grateful to you for.

Malcolm Collins: Comes downstream of not understanding normative male behavior. Like at any moment where he yelled at somebody, he should have felt humiliated at himself for ever doing that. Like, if I lost my temper in that way, I would punish myself severely. And I don’t think that he was taught to do that.

Simone Collins: Well, it also as, as someone who listens to this podcast had pointed out before, and I think it’s just so well put when a man gets to a point where he is yelling or otherwise pulling rank by like maintaining frame and exerting that dominance, he’s already lost, like dominance is, is exerted through being the person that people respect and turn to for leadership and direction.

Yeah. And if people aren’t doing that, like if you have to yell at people to get them to do that, it’s because you’re not dominant. Yeah. It’s because like this, this [00:51:00] just speaks to this immense amount of insecurity. And that is the biggest issue with performative masculinity is that it belies this intense insecurity when that masculinity is expressed in through anything.

But security, confidence, strong leadership and foresight, plus immense amounts of emotional control, which is why I really do love that stoke philosophy is pervasive in the manosphere that people really admire figures like Marcus Aurelius, who was all about emotional control. Yeah. Who was all about perspective.

I mean, that is natural dominance. It, it’s odd to me that this performative masculinity and deep insecurity is caught on as much as it has. ‘cause I feel like people can kind of. Smell that like I’m sure you had teachers when you were in school who would lose their minds, you know, they’d lose their composure and they’d start yelling at the class and berating them and nagging them, and [00:52:00] you didn’t respect those teachers.

And then there were the teachers who like with a quiet sentence, got everyone to snap into place.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah.

Simone Collins: This is no different. So yeah, it’s, this is just so strange to me. But yeah, I, I love that you’re pointing this out and I, I just also find it so interesting that

like the, the most supposedly masculine people are, like you’re saying, just getting cocked, never having kids, and ultimately removing themselves from the gene pool. It’s, it’s so, it’s so bizarre. So, but that irony is fun and delicious. So thank you for sharing this with me.

Malcolm Collins: Thank you so much. By the way, we should leave earlier than three hours and 30 minutes.

Something could go wrong on our journey.

Simone Collins: Okay.

Malcolm Collins: I mean, it, it takes three hours and 30 minutes on a regular drive over. I would add at least an extra hour in there.

Simone Collins: Okay. And I don’t know, we just like get lunch or something if we get there early.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. If [00:53:00] something goes wrong, we just get lunch or something.

I like, we get there early, it’s everything goes right. But I have a feeling that, you know, you, you want a, a much safer window.

Simone Collins: Okay.

No, this is an episode we recorded a while ago because my wife just gave birth yesterday. So obviously we’re not recording episodes right now. Uh, but back when we recorded this, we couldn’t tell you guys, but now we can is what we’re talking about here is a, a talk that we did at the White House, , on fertility rates.

I.

Malcolm Collins: And we will you’ll get the slide deck done tonight.

Simone Collins: Yep. After I finish the kids’ dinner, when I have them playing downstairs, I’ll just bring down my laptop and work on it

Malcolm Collins: and we’ll do some printouts tomorrow.

Simone Collins: We’re gonna, I thought we were gonna just email them the PDFs.

Malcolm Collins: Well, I mean, we’re gonna need something, I guess you can do it from your phone that we can practice copying from in the car till we memorize the speech.

Simone Collins: Yeah. Yes, that’s, that’s the plan. And, and the one thing that I am adding to the deck at the end is just a slightly more structured overview of our general recommendations because [00:54:00] all you really put in there was like propaganda when actually we had like a lot more in terms of our policy suggestions.

I mean, you put in propaganda and work from home and that was pretty much it. Whereas I feel like that should be a little more fleshed out. So that’s the only thing I’m adding just a heads up on that. And then I’m, I’m presumably gonna deliver more of that because it