Hope and Healing: How To Embrace God’s Presence in the Darkest Times

Episode Summary:

Not one of us is exempt from loss. We lose what we expected, what we thought we believed, what we dreamed, our sense of security or identity. We lose friendships. We lose people we love.

What do we do with the disruption, the devastation of loss? How do we survive unpredictable grief, ongoing suffering, and the questions about God that happen in the dark nights of our lives? None of us want to be in seasons of sorrow. But sometimes the dark nights of life and faith have strange gifts. On the other side, we find ourselves free from the superficial in our lives. We discover peace and the assurance that we are loved. And we may experience a deeper, more honest relationship with the God we found in the dark.

In this episode, I sit down with pastor and author Aubrey Sampson to talk about navigating deep loss and learning to sense God’s presence in the darkest seasons.

Quotables from the episode:

• For me, writing was a prayer, writing was an anchor to God, writing was trying to figure out what in the world was happening when everything felt very out of control. And ultimately, writing did become a lifeline to hope in the midst of something that felt very hopeless.
• Grief is also very difficult to find language for, to explain, because it can feel like so many jumbled, opposed, and poignant metaphors or events all at once. Grief is like jumping on a cheerless trampoline, a constant disorientation between adrenaline and gravity. Grief is an empty, dilapidating playground, a sad, stoic icon of lost memories and what could have been. Grief is a firestone, full of uncontrollable destruction and rage and simultaneously a mudslide, sloppy, shocking and unstoppable. Grief is a planet, vast, cold, and mysterious, and grief is somehow also a roly-poly pill bug, often unnoticed by others, unarmored and earthy.
• The questions I was asking felt like almost like I described them in the book as like baby-deer questions. They just felt very vulnerable to me to be asking a God that I have centered my life around questions like, "Are you real? Is your arm too short to heal cancer? Where are you? Are my prayers hitting the ceiling fan or are they actually going to your ears, Lord?" I was asking some questions that I sort of felt like I should not be asking these, not because I felt ashamed. I know God can handle our hard questions. It wasn't that. It was just like, I should be beyond these questions by now. But the grief was so tender, Michelle, and so close.
• Some of my prayers were like, “how could you? Like, how dare you?” And part of it was her journey. She experienced healing from cancer about a year in and they didn't call it remission yet. But the doctors did say, this is great, cancer -free, the chemo's done what it should, and then about three months later, it came back with a vengeance. So that was some of it too. The whiplash of it made me ask God some really difficult questions. Like, “can you do anything good in this, God? Like, this feels so lacking in goodness, so lacking in hope, so lacking in beauty you are taking a mom away from three young sons you are taking a daughter away from parents a sister away from sister. Can your goodness reach even into this place?”
• There's just so many situations that prompt those honest gut level questions. Like, I know you God, but I don't understand. I don't understand and God often doesn't answer our why, but he does invite us to be honest with our questions. I mean, I think about so many in the Bible and some of the questions they ask, you know, it'd be easy to say, well, how could they dare? But we ask our own variety of those same questions. And I find it helpful to read those questions in scripture because, you know, you find some comfort in, "Okay, these were historical, ecumenical, faithful followers of God throughout history, and yet they are asking God the same questions. How long, O Lord? How lonely, I feel."
• Lamentations is full of these, like, "How could you? How dare you? How will you fix this?" And so to be able to know that actually, though it feels opposite of our faith. Actually, this type of posture before God is a very, I think, crucial part of our faith journey. I think God actually allows us and wants us to ask those questions on purpose as part of our spiritual formation. Again, we kind of get into our heads as if this isn't faithful or something's wrong. I'm going backwards spiritually, but then when you read those questions all throughout scripture, you can find some comfort in like, okay, these people are in the Bible, right? They were faithful followers of God. They're asking the same questions I'm asking. Yeah, God used them as examples for us. That's it. To teach us, to encourage us.
• One thing that you want as a Christian, even in your darkest hours, is for God to come for you with a sense of comfort. Holy Spirit provides you peace. Holy Spirit provides you a sense that God is with you. God sees you. God is around you. And what I found in my season of grief was that was not occurring. I could not sense God with me. I couldn't hear God speaking to me. I could not “connect with God.” I was just like, “God, where are you? Like, I can't even sense your spirit comforting me and I need you more than ever.” And I began because of the Lord's kindness, I was meeting with a spiritual director at the time. And I began to read about a very common spiritual experience again throughout history, again throughout the Bible, called the Dark Night of the Soul. Which, again, we tend to use it a little generically just to me, and I'm going through a hard time, that's a Dark Night of the Soul.
• A dark night of the soul was coined by St. John of the Cross right after the Spanish Inquisition. And what he talked about was the very thing I'm talking about, when you cannot sense God answering your prayers, when you cannot sense God's nearness, when you cannot see what God is doing, that sense of God's quote "absence" is actually what it means to walk through a dark night of the soul. That can happen in grief, it can happen in loss, it can happen just in life, midlife crisis, it can happen. And what we find in dark nights of the soul is something that We know to be true, God never leaves us nor forsakes us. But for some reason, God does tend to pull back that "felt sense of His presence." And part of what God is doing, we can't all understand everything God is doing, but part of what God is doing is teaching us that our faith is not just about a feeling.
• Our faith is about the object of our faith, Jesus. And so, whether we're "feeling" the presence of God or not, can we choose to have faith that says He is true, His character is true, He is steadfast, I will keep believing, I will keep leaning in, I will keep being faithful even when I can't "feel" Him. And there's something mysterious and explosive and actually good that we find in dark nights of the soul even though it's often quite painful and confusing.
• Michelle, it is hard to sort of find yourself on the grief map when you're in it, especially when it's fresh. And so sometimes you don't know is where I'm at normal, okay, should I be farther along than I am. And the hard part is, depending on the context texture from, often people want you to be further along than you actually are. And you're just not, I mean, it just until you've walked through grief, you, you don't know, no, no, no, I can't move faster than I can move. I am right where I am. And that's as far as I can go. I wrote about these, these three different moments in darkness to try to at least help readers, grievers, someone walking through any type of loss or transition to sort of go, "Okay, I might find myself here." And also, to say any of those places are right where you're supposed to be. God is not rushing you past the finish line of pain.
• Some of us, I think, like I said, rush past it or pretend it isn't happening, but just to go, "Okay, God, things are changing. This is a new season. I don't necessarily like it. I don't really enjoy why I'm here, but I'm going to trust you've got some discoveries for me. And so, I'm going to keep open to whatever you're doing as the night falls. And then the next phase, midnight, I mean, this is where I wrote about my best friend's jet death and just everything changing. I mean, it is just the onslaught of grief that you feel physically, you feel emotionally you experience spiritually it's in your body it's in your mind it's you know you know this from the mental health world your brain is flat you can't really function the way that you used to function and I wanted to put some language for that again just to say it is normal and your only job is to be gentle with yourself at your spiritual midnight your emotional midnight like just Be kind to yourself.
• Be kind to yourself. I think we want to learn the lesson and we want to build the muscles and we want to build resilience. We want to grow in our depth and our meaning. That will come, but it is okay to be right where you are for as long as you need to be, especially in that initial onslaught of grief. We write a lot about that in the section on midnight. And then the last section, when I was very careful not to do, Michelle, and I think you'll appreciate this as one who talks about her own depression. I didn't want to say, "But the sun is coming. Sunrise is on its way." I did not want to write another book about, like, quote, "sunny spirituality," because that's not always what healing is. Healing isn't always darkness to light. Sometimes healing is this gradual progression of, "Oh, I see a little glimmer of hope here." Okay, here's some light coming through.
• I think so often we celebrate like the mountaintop, or the victory and we forget to celebrate what a courageous thing it is to step out in community again after loss or try something new after loss or frankly put pants on and go to Target after loss like those are victories. And so, I wanted to write and sort of normalize that healing can look dramatic. And in a moment, healing can also be very slow. And isn't, you know, isn't always just your sun. Sometimes it's like, you know, here's some stars in your darkness, that's healing too.
• In one sense, I think you do the things you don't do, meaning you rest Sabbath if you're not someone who has done that before, try to sleep if you can. I think this is a time to take up spiritual practices of slowness, stillness, silence, listening. I guess what I'm trying to say is there's not a lot you have to do. And especially early on in the dark night of the soul. And I said this before I will say it again and again and again, be gentle with yourself. I mean, you know, any listener who or view or who has been through loss knows, you often can't even remember like what shampoo is or how to shampoo your hair, let alone want to, or want to, that's a very good point, or even have the desire to. So I think a thing you do is be gentle with yourself
• Loss, grief, darkness can be very isolating. And so I think it is so important that you allow yourself intentionally to reach out to the safe people in your life. That doesn't have to be everybody. You don't have to be best friends with everyone who wants to come around you or, but who are the safe, trusted people that you can say, I can't pray right now, so I need you to pray for me. I am hurting right now. I need somebody just to know. I think the community piece is so important. We are not meant to do the faith journey alone. We're not meant to do grief alone. We're not meant to do darkness alone. We need some traveling companions. And again, you get to choose who those people are. There are some people for some reason that it just can't go with you in dark places and that's okay. But if you have some safe people that can't, you know, let them be a lifeline to you.
• It's hard in grief because people will often very well meaning ask you, what can I do for you? What do you need? And you just don't have the wherewithal to do it. So, on the flip side, I would say if you are walking with someone who's in a dark season, don't even ask, just say, I've sent you a Chipotle gift card, it's going to arrive in your mail, Uber Eats, whatever it is. I've sent you a gift card to any service, use it when you need to. I think some of that proactive approach for someone who's walking through darkness is really helpful too. Oh, for - Sure, because it's almost like the brain fog and the decision fatigue is so great that it's too hard to think about what I could ask someone else to do. Plus, if you've just lost having to ask someone for help, you risk rejection, which is another form of loss.
• So, what about the person who feels like their faith is being shaken by their dark night? What would you say to that person? Because we know the enemy is crafty and he seeks to steal, kill and destroy and he watches so intently. So, he knows when we're at our weakest point, so how do So how do we fight back against that? - Yeah, I think that is so good because what you don't want to do is get in a mindset where you are thinking God caused this pain in my life. God is not the author of pain, author of evil. God in Jesus conquered death. So those things are not from God. But what we and trust is that God is in them, redeeming them, making all things new.
• I think it's important to know this again, this is a normal part of your spiritual walk. I think sometimes again, we can think, the scaffolding of my faith is being shaken, that's bad, that's bad, that's bad. But sometimes to be disillusioned spiritually is a really good healthy thing because you're not living an illusion anymore. And so, some of the things that you have clung to that are false ideas about God, about faith, God is actually shaking those up on purpose. And that's something good he does in darkness is you find, you know, your faith is a little more explosive, a little more intimate, because you've embraced mystery and God's bigness and the boxes that you put God in suddenly God is breaking out of all of that is very good all of that is part of spiritual formation it can feel like it's you're going backwards but again if you can keep leaning in staying connected to God you find on the other side of that a greater intimacy with God however what you just talked about the spiritual attack that can come. I do think we have to be wise about this.
• I have a good friend who talks about these are the moments when you just have to contend for your faith. Like Jesus, I am not going anywhere. I am putting my anchor of faith in the ground. I am believing that you are good. I am believing that you do good. Any light otherwise is from the enemy, I plead the blood of Jesus over it and I will not walk in it. And so that's a hard muscle when you are depressed, dark, grieving. It's hard to kind of know what's spiritual attack, what's, you know, my just mental state is not okay, what is just, I'm sad, right? And so, I do think this going back to community where it's so helpful to have your other friends pray for you and you don't have to wherewithal to do it yourself. And to say, okay, Lord, I hate everything about this, but you have called yourself faithful and so I'm going to believe you are faithful.
• I think there's some work we have to do, Michelle, like to remember in the darkness what we knew in the light, remember in the desert what we knew in the garden seasons of our lives, remember in the valley what we knew on the mountaintop, like there is some work of recall, okay. God has been good to me, God has been good throughout history, God's character is true, I will choose to believe that even though this is like the fight of my life right now, and God honors that kind of faith and that kind of wrestle, he really does. And I appreciate what you're saying about remembering what we knew in the light and taking that into those dark places. I think it's also so important for us to remember, just as you said, God doesn't cause pain. He doesn't cause hardship. But God is always concerned with us growing.
• I love to garden. I'm a very impatient gardener, but I love to garden. But what it has taught me is that the most crucial growth happens below the soil in the dark place. And while none of us wants to go through pain and suffering, if we can appreciate that God is in that dark place and cultivating something good, that's a hope line that we can hold on to when it doesn't feel good. Think about Jesus in the garden. That was a dark place. His friends wouldn't even stay awake, right? And yet it was a good thing that came out of it because even though he was so honest and I love his honesty, Father, if there is any other way that this cup could pass from me, please, please do it, but ultimately, I want your will, not mine. And I think that's so important for us to remember that our savior of the world went through that dark night.
• Thankfully God is so patient with us. - Yes. - Oh, so patient with us. And I began to sense God sort of lovingly drawing me back to the word, but not for performance, not for study, not for output, not even for preparation. Just, "Hey, you're my daughter. Why don't you just come and read one song, read one, one little verse?" And I began in my mind to call it inchworm Bible reading where I just would read one song and then I would read it again. And then the next day read it again. And I was not accomplishing anything deeply spiritual, very profound. But there was something healing. And it won the words of the Psalms and this beautiful book of prayers and poems and laments for the people of God. And a lot of them are about pain and suffering. So that was one to find language for what I was walking through. But also, it was like, I felt like, again, God just let me be a human being and not a human doing. And I just got to sit in his presence. And it didn't matter how much I accomplished, it didn't matter that I made some beautiful social media post, wrote a sermon based on the reading, it was just about connecting with the father. And the Lord was again, very patient with me. And in time, I just began to sense all of that was God kind of reminding me, “I'm here, I'm still here. There's a rope tethering you to me. I am not going to let you go." And so that inchworm Bible reading, as silly as it sounds, became very profound. I feel like God found me again in that.
• It's such a profound act of worship and faith to run to God with those things because he would rather us come to him with that type of anger and raw questions and authenticity than walk away in apathy. And so whatever you can do, whether it's journaling, praying aloud in your car, writing, singing, painting, Whatever it is to give those heart things to the Lord is in itself an act of worship and connection and a tool. When we go through such incredibly painful times, like the dark night of the soul that we talked about before the break, it's natural in our humanness to ask, why did this happen?
• Those questions are the right questions to be asking. Those are the questions that God loves to hear. And so, I would invite you to ask those questions to God and wait as long as it takes for God to answer. You do not give up. But I would also say this, hope is coming, light is coming. The dark night does not say dark forever. Grief stays for a very long time, but it changes shape. I grieve my best friend Jen differently. We just celebrated her 45th birthday. I grieve her differently on her 45th birthday than I did two years ago. I still miss her deeply. The grief is different. I am different. The way I experience grief is different. I've had new losses since Jen and those are different.
• And so, it is okay to also remind yourself that hope is coming. You can continue to choose to hope even when you feel hopeless, can ask other people to hold that for you and you can't hold it yourself. I think, again, that's a beautiful part of the Christian faith is it's not meant to be individual; it's meant to be collective and communal. And so, Michelle, I can borrow your hope and your faith when I don't have any and you can borrow mine when you don't have any and all of those things the Lord will use to bring you back to a place of hope and delight and goodness and even joy again in His presence with other people and hope for the future.
• What you're walking through is normal. It is not antithetical to your faith, but part of the faith journey. I want to tell you to keep leaning into Jesus because he is faithful and true. And I would also, I think about the words of Psalm 40:40 where David says I'm at the bottom of my pit and what I found Lord is that you lifted me out and I kind of referred to this subtly a minute ago but there is that spiritual tether connecting you to God if you're a person in Jesus and God is not going to let you stay in your pit the rest of your life God is not going to you alone in your pit. And in fact, what's so beautiful about Jesus in his suffering, he crawls down in our pits with us, does not leave us alone in them. And so you have a friend in suffering who is actually in it with you, but outside of it able to redeem it and able to make something beautiful and new in the situation that seems so painful now.
• I just want to remind you that the temptation is great to pull away from God and from others especially when we've just gone through a period of loss, but I'm encouraging you consistent With God's admonition that you continue to cry out to him be honest with him ask the types of questions that Aubrey shared that she asked. There's no shame in that and God is big enough to handle that.

Scripture References:

• Psalm 88:12 “Are your wonders known in the place of darkness, or your righteous deeds in the land of oblivion?”
• Psalm 88:1 “Lord, you are the God who saves me; day and night I cry out to you.”

Recommended Resources:

• What We Find in the Dark: Loss, Hope, and God’s Presence in Grief by Aubrey Sampson
• Sacred Scars: Resting in God’s Promise That Your Past Is Not Wasted by Dr. Michelle Bengtson
• The Hem of His Garment: Reaching Out To God When Pain Overwhelms by Dr. Michelle Bengtson, winner AWSA 2024 Golden Scroll Christian Living Book of the Year and the 2024 Christian Literary Awards Reader’s Choice Award in the Christian Living and Non-Fiction categories
• YouVersion 5-Day Devotional Reaching Out To God When Pain Overwhelms
• Today is Going to be a Good Day: 90 Promises from God to Start Your Day Off Right by Dr. Michelle Bengtson, AWSA Member of the Year, winner of the AWSA 2023 Inspirational Gift Book of the Year Award, the 2024 Christian Literary Awards Reader’s Choice Award in the Devotional category, the 2023 Christian Literary Awards Reader’s Choice Award in four categories, and the Christian Literary Awards Henri Award for Devotionals
• YouVersion Devotional, Today is Going to be a Good Day version 1
• YouVersion Devotional, Today is Going to be a Good Day version 2
• Revive & Thrive Women’s Online Conference
• Revive & Thrive Summit 2
• Trusting God through Cancer Summit 1
• Trusting God through Cancer Summit 2
• Breaking Anxiety’s Grip: How to Reclaim the Peace God Promises by Dr. Michelle Bengtson, winner of the AWSA 2020 Best Christian Living Book First Place, the first place winner for the Best Christian Living Book, the 2020 Carolina Christian Writer’s Conference Contest winner for nonfiction, and winner of the 2021 Christian Literary Award’s Reader’s Choice Award in all four categories for which it was nominated (Non-Fiction Victorious Living, Christian Living Day By Day, Inspirational Breaking Free and Testimonial Justified by Grace categories.)
• YouVersion Bible Reading Plan for Breaking Anxiety’s Grip
• Breaking Anxiety’s Grip Free Study Guide
• Free PDF Resource: How to Fight Fearful/Anxious Thoughts and Win
• Hope Prevails: Insights from a Doctor’s Personal Journey Through Depression by Dr. Michelle Bengtson, winner of the Christian Literary Award Henri and Reader’s Choice Award
• Hope Prevails Bible Study by Dr. Michelle Bengtson, winner of the Christian Literary Award Reader’s Choice Award
• Free Webinar: Help for When You’re Feeling Blue

Social Media Links for Host and Guest:

Connect with Aubrey Sampson:

Website / Facebook / Instagram

For more hope, stay connected with Dr. Bengtson at:

Order Book Sacred Scars / Order Book The Hem of His Garment / Order Book Today is Going to be a Good Day / Order Book Breaking Anxiety’s Grip / Order Book Hope Prevails / Website / Blog / Facebook / Twitter (@DrMBengtson) / LinkedIn / Instagram / Pinterest / YouTube / Podcast on Apple

Guest:

Aubrey Sampson (MA, evangelism and leadership) coplanted and is on staff at Renewal Church, a multiethnic congregation in Chicagoland. She is an author a coach with Propel Women Cohorts and the cohost of The Nothing is Wasted Podcast. She is passionate about helping hurting Christians find God’s presence in their pain. She and her husband, Kevin, and their three hilarious sons live, minister, and play in the Chicagoland area.

Hosted By: Dr. Michelle Bengtson

Audio Technical Support: Bryce Bengtson

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