Pursuing a role in leadership is one thing, but what happens when you try to return to life as an individual contributor? Our guest, Paul Nadeau, equates this experience to having “resume damage.”
Join us for episode 345 as we dive into the differences between pursuing a technical career path as an individual contributor and a career path in people management from a guest who has experienced both. Paul reveals a strategy for gaining expertise by sharing examples of his willingness to find and clean up a mess.
Through turbulent times in the tech industry, how can we give to our network with no agenda? Listen to Paul describe his approach to meeting new people, supporting them through layoffs, or just providing advice…all through merely having a conversation.
Original Recording Date: 08-28-2025
Topics – Technical Career Paths vs. Management Career Paths, Returning to Individual Contributor, Specialty Decisions, Nurturing Your Network and a Focus on Helping Others
3:15 – Technical Career Paths vs. Management Career Paths
- John mentions we have spoken on the show about the technical / individual contributor path to progression as well as the management career path.
- There is usually a path to stay an individual contributor in medium to large size organizations (i.e. the ability to progress to senior engineer, staff engineer, principal engineer, distinguished engineer, etc.).
- “If you want to progress in your career and you don’t have that path, management is not the natural thing to look at…unless you actually want to stop what you are doing and become a manager…. Becoming a manager does not make you…tech lead. It makes you manager. It’s a hard piece of advice to give somebody if they’re in an organization that does not have a next title, a next promotion for that person where they stay an individual contributor…. You shouldn’t try to become a manager. You should try to move organizations. That’s hard advice to give. I’ve had to do that a couple times.” – John White
- Paul recalls a conversation with his manager not long after the manager had been promoted into the position.
- “There’s no comparison between the management going up a chain of command and the engineer going up a chain of command. It’s a completely different skillset altogether….” – Paul Nadeau
- Paul tells us that as leaders progress to higher levels in an organization they take on more responsibility but also begin to manage a profit and loss center (or PNL). Rather than individual expense reports you’re looking at what the team is spending and what they are spending it on.
- The next level up is leading an entire division and considering how to distribute funds within your budget for salary raises, bonuses, or other types of compensation.
- Paul tells us that many leaders love to hand out promotions, but no one likes to fire people.
- When evaluating a technical career, Paul likes to think about the following:
- Am I having fun?
- Am I a benefit to the company?
- Where will I be a bigger benefit to the company…in my current role or in a management role?
- If applicable, are customers happy with me in my role (tech support, professional services, etc.)?
- “I think one of the big reasons why people leave companies is…whenever they say there’s no room for promotion; it doesn’t have anything to do with promotion into management. A lot of times they think that’s what it is. But it has to do with promotion of their brand, their career path. What are they doing, and how are they getting there? That’s what it has to do with.” – Paul Nadeau
- Management is a lot like herding cats, and according to Paul, not everyone is going to have fun doing that job.
- Paul has fun whiteboarding and providing technical solutions for his customers. This makes him happy.
- We have to define what success is for ourselves and not rely on how other people define success. Some people in technology define success as the level of management they have achieved.
- “Quite honestly, whenever somebody comes and says, ‘are you interested in management?’ Not really…because I can make a bigger impact here where I am now and I can go to club and make a lot of money getting there as a systems engineer…. In management…when you equate it all out, is it really as much fun? I don’t know. When you walk in and you go to dinner, nobody wants to sit with you because you’re the boss. Nobody comes to your table. Why not just be the fun individual contributor that’s the natural leader guy where everybody comes over to the table and you just kind of have fun doing what you do?” – Paul Nadeau
- Nick says Paul’s comments seem to hint at the importance of working for the right leader if you take on a role as a first-time people manager.
- Paul tells us it’s more than that. Managers have a ton of resources at their disposal, but their number 1 job is to protect the company above all else.
- “A lot of people say…I’m here to protect the people. No, you’re here to protect the company number 1. That’s why the company promoted you. The second thing is to protect your people. If you’re protecting the company you’re naturally protecting the people. Because now you don’t have a toxic work environment. You don’t have any kind of discord. You don’t have any kind of rule breakers. All that’s taken care of because you’re protecting the company first.” – Paul Nadeau
- One of a manager’s greatest resources is HR (Human Resources).
- “They are there as an advocate to help you as a manager to work through problems and issues. That should be your best friend in the whole world.” – Paul Nadeau, on HR
- Many leaders miss the opportunity to leverage HR as an advocate and helpful resource. One of the first things Paul did after becoming a leader was go make friends with his HR. He also highlights how communication with HR about more than just immediate problems can help (i.e., employees who are performing well that you want to retain).
- If you’re giving pointers to someone who wants to go into management or continue down that path, Paul tells us it’s not just about taking a class. You need an increased level of involvement with other people.
- Instead, do things to get involved in different user groups.
- Take on different roles that you can have fun doing.
- An increased overall level of involvement fosters strong relationships with different people. This is how to begin and continue building a professional network.
- As layoffs happen in the industry and people reign to move to different companies, the relationships can be retained.
- “These are still people. Humans first, right? That’s what it all boils down to…it’s still people dealing with people at the end of the day.” – Paul Nadeau
11:37 – Returning to Individual Contributor
- At some point after working in leadership, Paul chose to return to being an individual contributor. What went into that decision?
- “Actually, it’s harder to go backwards than it is to go forward. It’s harder to go from a management role into an individual contributor role.” – Paul Nadeau
- From the time Paul was promoted to director of worldwide services to his return to individual contributor was a span of about 8 years.
- Paul remembers a specific trip to Asia to spend time with a director under him and to attend to different organizational changes. It was 2 AM, and he received an unexpected phone call from a friend. Someone wanted Paul fired and wanted to take his job.
- Paul reminds us that at this time things were running smoothly. The services organization was making money ($48 million in the black). Employee morale was in great standing, and attrition was low.
- When he took over the services organization at this company after a massive restructuring years earlier, it was $18 million in the red, and the company was considering removing it completely.
- “The politics side of it…I’ve never done well with. I’ve never really done well with that. It is inherent. It is something that happens…. Human beings…we just naturally get political about things…. We have opinions…sometimes a little jaded opinions on somethings…or a little strong opinions…. And when the politics started to come out, I was like, ‘you know what? I’m not even cut out for this.’ And the worse it got, the less tolerance I had for it….” – Paul Nadeau
- Paul told his boss he wanted to move back to individual contributor again. Paul was ok with just being an individual contributor inside an organization he had built. He missed being in front of customers.
- “It is fun. It is rewarding to help people with their career and help them develop leadership skills that they didn’t know that they had, to see things in people that they don’t even know that they had and kind of help them evolve. However, there’s also the other side of it, which is, I can’t take this being up 17 hours a day, getting 3 or 4 hours of sleep a night, and being on airplanes all the time. It’s just taking a toll…. Everything considered, I want to go back to an individual contributor role.” – Paul Nadeau
- After talking through it together, Paul’s boss at the time was supportive of the move back to individual contributor.
- Paul also spoke to a really good friend who had progressed from individual contributor to being a peer of his in management about making the change back to being an individual contributor. At first that friend thought it wasn’t a good idea. It would remove some elements of compensation that were present at the leadership level.
- But, when the friend could see Paul was determined, he mentioned to Paul that there was an opening for a systems engineer. Paul made the move and took the role.
- After moving into the individual contributor role, Paul said one thing he did not expect was to have to still sit at a dinner table by himself.
- “It was so isolating. It was absolutely unbelievable. So, whenever they say it’s lonely at the top, it is. But it’s also lonely when you get back into the ranks…moving back in from management back into an individual contributor role. If I were to move into a different company where I didn’t know anybody or maybe just knew one or two people, it might have been a little easier. But moving up the ranks and back down the ranks was quite telling…. It was kind of surprising.” – Paul Nadeau
- Remember, Paul had gone from member of a team to leading an entire division. What we’re talking about now is going the opposite direction.
- Paul says he worked at his first two employers after being in the Navy for many years (over 17 years at the first company and about 8 at the second). It was all about loyalty.
- But, does a company reciprocate the loyalty, or would it be better to move to a different company?
- Even when trying to move to a new company after experience in that director role, Paul tells us the “resume damage” followed him.
- Hiring managers were initially hesitant to hire Paul as an individual contributor. They thought Paul might tell them how to run their team or be targeting another director role.
- After Paul had landed an individual contributor role, his manager or other leaders who knew about his management experience might ask him if he had ever experienced a specific situation. Listen to some of the specific situations Paul experienced when he was a leader. Would you know how to handle them?
- “These are all things that they don’t teach you…. There’s no book that says…go to page 15 and this is what happens when this happens…. There’s a lot of these things that you just have to kind of learn under fire. Again, that HR advisor is the person you have to go to…. Moving into those roles a lot of times is really difficult. It will follow you. Then it becomes kind of a distant memory….” – Paul Nadeau, on situations one experiences as a manager
- Paul says the transition would be equally difficult to go back from individual contributor to manager if enough time had passed since the last management experience. It’s not that someone would forget how to perform the role, but there is a perception shaped by amount of time not in the role one must combat.
- The decision points for Paul when it comes to manager / individual contributor come down to passion and what he wants to do in life.
- Many people we’ve spoken to who when back to individual contributor roles missed being close to the technology.
- Paul tells us people in leadership (like leading a worldwide services organization) don’t have time for building a home lab. You start to feel like you’re getting behind.
- Paul mentions it can be difficult to have your resume stand out when applying for a role as a manager or director because every organization has them.
- If you’re an individual contributor in sales engineering, for example, the industry is a lot smaller than you think. Many people know each other. Paul shares the example of getting laid off last year and receiving multiple calls from his network very quickly after it happened. In this industry, our reputation precedes us. And this is also the case for leaders.
- “If somebody were to call me and say, ‘hey, we want you in this management role….’ Sure, no problem. What’s the organization? Tell me about it. ‘It’s a well-oiled machine….’ Forget it. I don’t want it…. Anybody can just take a well-oiled machine…and maintain it.” – Paul Nadeau
- Paul would rather lead an organization that is in disarray and needs fixing than a well-oiled machine. You are much more likely to get more leeway for fixing big problems from your boss than when things are working well. Rather than being given a strategy on which to execute from upper management, Paul would rather build the team and develop the plan to do it.
- We should also remember interviews are for the job candidate to ask questions to interview the company (not just the other way around. This is especially important when applying for a management role.
- “During an interview process, that’s as good as it’s going to get. Everybody has their best face on at that point. So, if it’s not working at that point, forget it. Just walk….” – Paul Nadeau
- Ask upper-level leaders in interviews what they expect out of a leader. Paul says sometimes people cannot answer this question because they aren’t sure or haven’t really thought it through. This is the person who would be your boss. If they can’t tell you how you will be measured, that is a red flag!
- “Are they really looking for a partner? Are they looking for somebody that’s going to help them…get through some of these issues and problems and build an organization that’s going to be world class and is going to be top performing? Or do they just want a placeholder? Do they just want somebody there because I have a req and that’s it?” – Paul Nadeau
- Watch out for meaningless cliches from leaders that don’t really tell you as an individual contributor what you need to be doing.
23:44 – Specialty Decisions
- Paul remained in the networking and telecommunications space after returning to individual contributor. Why did Paul choose to take on different specialties over time within these areas? People listening may be afraid to specialize.
- All of the specializations Paul ended up focusing on came from someone telling him that he couldn’t do it or figure it out.
- Take ATM (Asynchronous Transfer Mode), for example. It’s a technology used to connect the world together. People thought Paul could never figure it out. But he did anyway.
- Gigabit ethernet came out right after the ATM wave. There was also telephony (Voice over IP / VOIP and other traditional telecommunications), and one of the companies where Paul worked helped customers in this area.
- Paul found himself needing to learn about 66 Blocks.
- “Every part of it, believe it or not, there was an overlap in it. But it boiled down to somebody said you can’t do that. And being the last of 6 kids, I got so tired of hearing that when I was growing up…. And that was a lot of the career, quite honestly, the hard headedness I guess of it and the challenge of it.” – Paul Nadeau
- Paul learned about Checkpoint firewalls, and when Fortinet entered the scene, he started to learn that technology as well.
- Looking back on the experience, Paul says the opportunities just dovetailed into one another.
- “You’re sitting in a room, and they said, ‘hey, we need somebody to do this.’ And everybody looks around…. Yeah, I’ll do it. It’s new. I don’t know anything about it. It’s interesting. Let’s go. What could possibly go wrong? That’s my favorite saying in the world. What could possibly go wrong? …So let’s just go jump in. That’s been my entire career quite honestly…. Sometimes it doesn’t work out so well. Sometimes it works out great. It just kind of depends. Risk taking…as long as it’s a calculated risk, it’s fine. As long as you think it through, you’ll be totally fine with it.” – Paul Nadeau
- Was learning something he didn’t know anything about the same as walking into an organization that is a complete mess and cleaning it up?
- Yes! Paul says it’s the same thing.
- Paul gives the example of leaving a telecommunications company to go and focus on NSX. He knew nothing about NSX at the time, but it had all the elements of his background (networking, security, etc.). Paul didn’t know virtualization, so he decided to build a lab to help himself learn what was missing at the level he needed to learn it (not at an expert level but at a level of competence for his role).
- It was very similar when Paul moved to his role at Palo Alto Networks. They have an enormous portfolio of products, and Paul had to put in the time to learn the products at the deep level he needed to (i.e. getting his hands on it).
- “If you’re looking to get into management or you’re looking to get promoted in management and you’re not looking for a mess or somebody that’s almost in tears when they interview you…then you’re not applying for the right job. You’ve gotta get out of your comfort zone. You really do. And I’m not saying go do crazy stuff, but you have to keep yourself uncomfortable in order to keep learning, to keep progressing.” – Paul Nadeau
29:15 – Nurturing Your Network and a Focus on Helping Others
- Paul does a really good job of nurturing his extended professional network. How does he do it exactly?
- Paul is a people person, referring to himself as not really introverted but not really extroverted. He likes to have face-to-face conversations with others over a meal, for coffee, etc.
- COVID was difficult for Paul.
- Paul isn’t afraid to reach out to people he has not yet met. He will introduce himself to people at industry events, share what he does, and just have a conversation.
- “There’s a lot of things you can glean…if you ask somebody about themselves and just sit back and listen, man, you’ll learn so much out of it.” – Paul Nadeau
- Paul tells us we can learn so much about new ways of thinking, progression paths in tech, etc. through conversations with others (much like we’ve showcased on the podcast).
- It’s ok to reach out to people we haven’t talked to in several years and ask to catch up. Paul sees this as an opportunity to pick up where you previously left off. We tend to fall out of touch with others because of various life events. It just happens.
- Paul is a true believer in helping others. He gives the example of the tech downturn / season of layoffs we’re seeing right now. It’s an opportunity to have a different kind of conversation with people impacted.
- “If there’s a layoff, I call. And a lot of times that person…day 2 is like, ‘man, I haven’t talked to anybody in the last day. It’s like all of a sudden, I had the plague. Nobody wants to call me.’ It’s not contagious. The person got hit in a layoff. What can I do to legitimately help you? And I will go to my network…but first I need to find out from you – what do you want to do? Do you want to change career paths? Do you want to stay on a career path? …This is an opportunity for you to kind of branch out a little bit and look at it. And you can have really kind of good conversations with people that you wouldn’t have if they were still employed…. It’s a different conversation.” – Paul Nadeau
- Once you understand what someone wants to do after being impacted by a layoff, you can then introduce them to someone in your network. Many times, that person will introduce them to someone else because they know about an opening, which creates further momentum. We should not be afraid of making an introduction for someone.
- Paul tells us he does not like asking for help.
- “But, at the end of the day, people like to help. That’s what they want to do…. You’re giving them a gift by saying, ‘hey, can you help me?’” – Paul Nadeau
- If you ask someone to make an introduction for you, it empowers them to take action.
- If people are not willing to make an introduction for you, it may be a sign of a bigger problem you have.
- Nick says we’re highlighting the importance of telling people the kind of help we need and what we want to do next.
- Paul tells a story from early in his career when a teammate of his was laid off. He did all kinds of things to try and help the person find their next opportunity, but what the person wanted was to take some time off before looking for a next role. Paul didn’t understand that when he first dove in to help and advises us to be helpful without being assertive.
- Paul remembers getting calls after being laid off from people asking what he wanted to do. Some of them were from managers who had no openings at the time but wanted to have a conversation.
- “It’s rewarding on both levels…. I know now what I can do to help them, and I know what part of my network I can introduce them to based on what they want to do next….” – Paul Nadeau
- A next step for some people after a layoff may be starting their own business, for example. Paul knows people who became franchise owners after getting laid off from a tech job.
- Paul mentioned making strong connections with co-workers as well as special interest groups. Which of these special interest groups has Paul frequented over the course of his career, and what would he encourage people earlier in their career to do?
- There are many different groups that meet based on commonalities like technology, veterans or something else. You might hear about these groups on Facebook or LinkedIn, for example.
- “If I look at a LinkedIn feed and somebody says, ‘hey we’re having a technology meeting…’ and you have somebody from 5 different companies…I know the companies because they’re in tech. I don’t know any of these people. I’m going. I’m definitely going. Because one, it puts me outside my comfort zone. Second of all, you have some of the most riveting conversations with people you don’t even know, but they’re in the same industry. And now all of a sudden you know them.” – Paul Nadeau
- Paul says these types of conversations could result in…
- Someone reaching out to you months later asking for help after a layoff – this enables the conversation about what they want to do and creates an opportunity to help
- Someone letting you know they will be in your area – this creates an opportunity to get together
- Listen to Paul tell the story of a dinner conversation that allowed him to help someone on a personal level based on previous experience.
- “So, it’s not just about tech. It’s just about jobs. A lot of people look at it in the wrong respect, or they look at it like, ‘I need to do it because I need to get something out of it.’ And a lot of times you’re doing it because there’s a lot you can give. There’s a lot of insight you can…give out to help other people.” – Paul Nadeau
- While having a professional network with strong connections can definitely help you should you lose your job, Paul tells us that’s not the way we should approach building our network. John calls it trying to put good vibes out into the universe.
- Paul finds people who work in technology fascinating. It takes a special mindset to get into this industry, and there is a very cool commonality in being part of the industry.
- Some people we meet we may only speak to once. Others we might speak with multiple times.
- Paul tells the story of someone reaching out to him on LinkedIn, and it turned out the two of them were at a technology conference several years before then.
- “It is a small world, small industry. It’s all about just getting out there and just who can you help. And then if you ever need help, hopefully it’s there for you.” – Paul Nadeau
- We’re going to feel better when we’re able to help someone else, but you may never know all of the people you end up helping.
- Paul recently learned about the impact of a conversation with someone that really helped that person after they lost their job. But Paul didn’t go into that conversation with an agenda. He was just having a good conversation.
- “Good people know good people. That’s what it boils down to. So, your network, if you’re a good solid person, good engineer…chances are your network is good solid people. It kind of lays the groundwork for helping everybody out. I agree 100%. It’s all about who you can help.” – Paul Nadeau
- This is a parallel to what we heard Don Jones mention in Episode 137 – Something to Offer, Something to Share with Don Jones (1/2) about managers not knowing if today was a good day.
- This is very similar to when we help someone with a job search or career advice. We don’t know what the impact is / will be. The intention is to leave a positive trail behind us.
- Paul says we need to be able to have confidence in what we do, who we help, how we conduct ourselves.
- “Everything has been a learning experience. Everything has been interesting. Have there been bumps in the road? Yes, absolutely…a ton of bumps. But it’s like anything else. If you’re on a cross-country flight in an airplane, you’re going to hit bumps. There’s going to be turbulence. You just fly through it. And then whenever you get there, you feel a little bit better about it, right? Because you made it through the turbulence…. What kind of impact am I going to make on humanity…at the end of the day? That’s the big goal right there…. How are people going to remember you? Are they going to remember you as the helpful person who just went out of their way to help people out? …It doesn’t have anything to do with money. It doesn’t have anything to do with prestige or being in a public eye. That just has to do with…being a good, solid human being. If you live your life like that…you really don’t have much to worry about.” – Paul Nadeau
- Connect with Paul on LinkedIn if you would like to follow up on this episode. Any subject goes.
Mentioned in the Outro
- As technical people we sometimes jump into solutioning too quickly. When it comes to speaking to those who have been laid off, we need to ask more questions and perform some discovery. What do they want to do next?
- This could be an opportunity to brainstorm with that person and point out a role they could be qualified for but didn’t realize it.
- What if someone doesn’t know what they want to do next? Outside of encouraging the person to give it some thought, you could suggest they read What to Do Next by Jeff Henderson, which was recommended by former guest Daniel Lemire.
- Paul said the job of a people leader is to protect the company first and foremost. By doing that they will protect their people.
- This adds another element to the advice Richard Russell shared in Episode 319 – Upward Focus: Manage, Coach, and Create Value in the Space that Fits You with Richard Russell (2/2). Richard said the job of a manager or leader is not to serve their team but to provide value to the business, the organization, and their leadership. Serving the team is the HOW of doing the job and not the what.
- Do you know someone else who has suffered from resume damage? Send us an e-mail to recommend new guests. We would love to feature their story on the show.
Contact the Hosts
- The hosts of Nerd Journey are John White and Nick Korte.
- E-mail: nerdjourneypodcast@gmail.com
- DM us on Twitter/X @NerdJourney
- Connect with John on LinkedIn or DM him on Twitter/X @vJourneyman
- Connect with Nick on LinkedIn or DM him on Twitter/X @NetworkNerd_
- Leave a Comment on Your Favorite Episode on YouTube
- If you’ve been impacted by a layoff or need advice, check out our Layoff Resources Page.
- If uncertainty is getting to you, check out or Career Uncertainty Action Guide with a checklist of actions to take control during uncertain periods and AI prompts to help you think through topics like navigating a recent layoff, financial planning, or managing your mindset and being overwhelmed.
