516 Sean Finnegan on Restoring Authentic Christianity (Tom Huszti)

Listen to this episode on Spotify or Apple Podcasts

Recently Tom Huszti interviewed me for his YouTube channel, the Unitarian Anabaptist. We talked about the importance of geography, archeology, and Greco-Roman history for interpreting the bible, especially the New Testament. Next we delved into early church history, starting with the earliest forms of Jewish Christianity in the first and second centuries. We talked about the Jerusalem church, the Nazarenes, and the Ebionites. Next we considered the persecution many Christians faced at the hands of the Romans for their unwillingness to give their ultimate allegiance to Caesar. The conversation was wide ranging, but what came through over and over is the importance of studying the bible and history in order to restore authentic Christianity and live it out today.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_KefOimH6ZU

—— Links ——

• For the trip to Greece and Turkey with Jerry Wierwille, see the itinerary here and the map here.
• Follow Huszti's YouTube Channel, the Unitarian Anabaptist
• Check out episode 478 Unitarian Anabaptist (Tom Huszti) 
• Get the free class on Early Church History here.
• Support Restitutio by donating here
• Join our Restitutio Facebook Group and follow Sean Finnegan on Twitter @RestitutioSF
• Leave a voice message via SpeakPipe with questions or comments and we may play them out on the air
• Intro music: Good Vibes by MBB Attribution-ShareAlike 3.0 Unported (CC BY-SA 3.0) Free Download / Stream: Music promoted by Audio Library.
• Who is Sean Finnegan?  Read his bio here

—— Transcript ——

This transcript was auto-generated and only approximates the contents of this episode.

Sean Finnegan:Hey there, I'm Sean Finnegan. And you are listening to restart studio podcast that seeks to recover authentic Christianity and live it out today.

Tom Huszti: Sean Finnegan, welcome to Unitarian Anabaptist.

Sean Finnegan: Thanks for having me.

Tom Huszti: So this has been a long time in the waiting. I was interviewed by you about 8 months ago and now you're being interviewed by the Unitarian Anabaptist. What a privilege there is. A lot that you have to say today in the limited time that we're going to do this, you just came back from a trip of Italy and Greece. You finished a 500 year history of the early church. There's just so much interrelated and what I would like to do, as we discussed earlier is to relate these things back to the 1st century faith of our early Christian brethren. So to begin, could you give us a summary of the important highlights that you saw on your trip related to church history?

Sean Finnegan: Yeah, we ended up going to a number of touristy spots in Greece like Santorini and Mykonos, but we also hit Athens and we came into the port of Piraeus and then got to the city of Athens and and the first thing that I will note. And anyone who's been to the Mediterranean in August will. We'll know what I'm about to say is. That it's hot. It's a very.SpeakerHot part of the.

Sean Finnegan: World. So is the Middle East, so it's it's. It's interesting that, you know, like times I've been to Israel, times have been to Greece or Turkey. It is a very different climate than what I'm used to here in New York or you in Ohio there.

Tom Huszti: Sure. Yes, yes, absolutely. Uh.

Sean Finnegan: And you know that that. Brings to mind the importance of water. Hmm. And something that really stuck out to me in Israel I. Would have never. Gotten that from reading books, but going to Israel you go to these ancient sites and. These cisterns dug into the ground these huge caverns to store water because it doesn't rain that much water is is still a big deal in the 1st century in Rome in.SpeakerYes. Yeah.

Sean Finnegan: Other cities Pompeii also got to visit Pompeii.

Tom Huszti: A lot.

Sean Finnegan: And they brought. The water in through aqueducts and this is. All part of. Their system of city structure, but the question. Who pays for the aqueducts? Who pays for the bath houses? You know, I got to see some bath houses in Pompeii where you had the the frigidarium, the tepidarium and the calidore. Yum, you know, and this is the really cold water, the tepid water and the hot water. And this is just what people did. These are these are public facilities. This actually ended up having a great deal of prestige. As wealthy people step forward and this happened in the 1st century, but also in the the 2nd century, was really the heyday of this period, where wealthy people would come forward and they would donate money to build these public works and they would build other great structures like theaters. And whatnot. And these would then be the ones who controlled the cities and won political office.

Tom Huszti: OK.

Sean Finnegan: And so it's a very different kind of world, you know, just like I don't think about water, I don't think. About wealthy people building bath houses or pools, right? It's just we, you know, we pay taxes and then, you know, we argue about the police. It's just a very different world. And that was really driven home to me on the trip, you know, in Athens, you're on the Acropolis and you're seeing the Parthenon and some of the other structures that still remain.

Tom Huszti: Yes, yes.

Sean Finnegan: It's just like this is an utterly different world, and it's just so helpful to remember that Tom because. We don't do that when we read the Bible, what we do is we just. We have what we. Understand the world to be, and then we encounter the scripture. We read the text and then we think to ourselves. How can I incorporate this new information? I'm reading about the book of acts or one of the church epistles. For example, how do I incorporate that into what? I know about the world. This is an automatic process and the problem is if you don't force yourself to stop and say wait, they lived in a different world where they had different. Different language, different politics, different weather, different everything. Then you can easily misunderstand so much of the New Testament I.

Tom Huszti: OK.

Sean Finnegan: Think that's a? Lot of what we as pastors do is we're trying to help people understand the scriptures. So the trip was really enlightening in that sense. Also, I'll make another quick point about it is that we did manage to go to the very edge of Mount Vesuvius. Now Mount Vesuvius blew in 79 AD 79, and that's what killed all the people in Pompeii and Herculaneum. And so they say it's still an active volcano. But you can take a.SpeakerOK.

Sean Finnegan: Bus all the way up to the top and then you hike until.

Tom Huszti: What's the way?

Sean Finnegan: You get to the very crater. You can look down into the crater and it's just incredible. It's just dirt and some like grass and stuff. There's no like lava. Or anything cool but.

Tom Huszti: OK.

Sean Finnegan: It's just a weird experience to like, stand on the edge of an active volcano and think, wow. This thing blew. And you could kind of see why ancient people were like, ohh, the gods are angry, right? Because. Like who would it?

Tom Huszti: Uh-huh. Well, yeah.

Sean Finnegan: There's no one in living memory of seeing this thing blow the last time, and it's just such a otherworldly power, sure.

Tom Huszti: How far is Pompeii from Rome?

Sean Finnegan: I think about two hours. If I had to guess something like that, so we approached.

Tom Huszti: Ohh that far OK.

Sean Finnegan: Pompeii, from Naples, Naples, is on the. Coast came at it from the West to get to Pompeii in the east, and then you get to Vesuvius and. At the top. Of the Zeus, you can see everything you can see just miles and miles in different cities and. It's really incredible.

Tom Huszti: My, my. So how far did the lava have to travel to make it to Pompeii from?

Sean Finnegan: Well, wasn't it? They didn't get buried in lava, actually. Yeah, you, you. You would, I guess you would expect that, but it was, it was a I think it was a toxic gas.

Tom Huszti: OK.

Sean Finnegan: That swept through it well. Initially it was uh. Was launching projectiles and ash and rock straight up, and then that fell because of the wind onto the city and so that, you know, imagine like a hail storm, but with stones and bigger ones and smaller ones. But then a gas came from the mountain and.

Tom Huszti: OK.

Sean Finnegan: I believe that's what happened and it killed the people, but then it continued to rain. Ash, I think they said like 20 feet of ash, something crazy.

Tom Huszti: Oh wow. OK.Speaker 5And it just.

Sean Finnegan: Settled on the city and people just didn't have a reason to go there for anything or I'm. I'm not really sure why, but it just laid there. Century after century, and I'm not sure exactly when. Maybe in the 1700s eighteen, 100 something something around there, they're just like, hey, I think we found. A city over here, you know? Archaeology. Just finally gets started. And what happened, Tom, is they would come against these air pockets. So they're digging through. And they hit like a pocket of air and they're. Like this is so weird. What is this? And someone got the bright idea of. Of squeezing into it some plaster, yeah.

Tom Huszti: plaster plaster. OK OK.

Sean Finnegan: Yeah, if you have you seen these images?

Tom Huszti: Yeah, I have. Yeah. That's what I was wondering. OK.

Sean Finnegan: Yeah. Yeah. And so then they let it dry and harden, and then they chip around it and then they see the exact shape of a human being. Sometimes even with fine detail. Of like facial expressions and stuff. That's kind of become their customers when they hit an air cavity. They just do that and there there are lots of these casts of human beings in various positions. And what's crazy about them is it's. Just like a. Plaster, but inside the plaster are that person. 'S actual bones.

Tom Huszti: Yeah. I was gonna ask. OK. I was gonna ask, you know, something that you mentioned to me back. Louisville, KY, was the length of time that bones. Yeah. And we were talking about resurrection and literal resurrection. And you mentioned that bones last a long time. That's something I really was impressed by something that Rabbi Tovia singer was speaking out against being cremated because. Because the bones are supposed to be the material that used for in part anyhow to reconstitute us as human beings in the resurrection. So that view is very Jewish in origin, as you well know.

Sean Finnegan: Yeah, I tend to agree with Rabbi Tovia singer on that. I'm not a fan of cremation. I'm not going to say it's going to defeat God's ability to resurrect somebody, feel like that's a pretty extreme position to take. But I have learned a lot and I know you've been to Israel and you've stood on the Mount of olives and you see. Well, the the tombs there that are, I don't know why they're buried above ground, but they're all these stone rectangles and or stone boxes, really rectangular shaped boxes and inside are the bones. And it's like, well, what's the deal with this? Why are they so worried about bones or not worried but concerned about bones and focused and.

Tom Huszti: Yes, yes.

Sean Finnegan: About caring for the bones and you know they have these ossuaries where you know they they found Caiaphas ossuary.

Tom Huszti: I know I saw it when I was in Israel.

Sean Finnegan: Incredible ornate.

Tom Huszti: In the Israel, yeah. In the Israel hit Natural History Museum of all places, back in 2004, I was shocked.

Sean Finnegan: Isn't it beautiful?

Tom Huszti: Well, well, it's a beautiful ossuary, but what was most shocking was the was the plaque beside it. The plaque, the plaque beside it, said this was the high priest in the days of Jesus that was responsible for his crucifixion. And I thought to see that advertised in the Israel.

Sean Finnegan: Oh, what did it say?

Tom Huszti: Natural History Museum was just shocking because it's a recognition that this thing happened and this is the man responsible to it. I was, yeah, that was the last thing I saw in the museum on my way out because we were we had a very short time frame and it was at the entrance of the. Museum so we saw it as we exited. Very cool. Fascinating, yes.

Sean Finnegan: Very cool. And you see that stuff? You just say to yourself. These are real. These are true stories. This is history, you know. You see. The the litho what is that Lithos Stratos? You know that that street that is beneath Jerusalem, that was discovered where this is where Jesus was beaten or. He was. It's the layer that goes back to the 1st century. It's kind of underneath the city of Jerusalem. You see these things you say to yourself like I like. I've stood there, Tom. Like, I know for sure. Now. Vesuvius is a real volcano. I looked into the.

Tom Huszti: Yes, yes. Crater. Yes, yes. Yeah, right, right.SpeakerIt's like not that.

Sean Finnegan: I ever really doubted it, but like when you do it and you stand there and you see and you, you know, you see the cast and the horror on the faces of the.

Tom Huszti: Right.

Sean Finnegan: People in Pompeii, you're like. OK, this is not a story, this is history.

Tom Huszti: Yeah, no.

Sean Finnegan: And it's very powerful. But back to your point about resurrection and bones. What really started me on this, this is going to be a really random source, is a Freakonomics podcast episode. They're talking about cremating animals. The guy was saying, when it comes to cremating animals, they it was, they were trying to do an investigation. The big question they had was.

Tom Huszti: OK.

Sean Finnegan: Do they actually give you the ashes for your animal? This is like a pet crematorium. Or are they just like scooping random ashes? And you know what? What's really going on here? Right. And they were talking it. So they got into the subject of cremation and bones. And they're like, well, you know, what really happens to the crematorium is they burn, you know, the human or the animal or whatever. And then the bones are there.

Tom Huszti: Right.

Sean Finnegan: Their bones are not burnable, they just, they're just there.

Tom Huszti: Right, right, right.

Sean Finnegan: So what they do is they grind them.

Tom Huszti: That's what Tovia said, too.

Sean Finnegan: And after they grind them down, that's the ashes that you get. They're actually ground bones.

Tom Huszti: Ohh, is that right?

Sean Finnegan: That they return to you. At least, that's what this podcast episode was saying. It was talking about animals, but like, it also talked about humans, whatever. And it and it made me think to myself, like, wait a second. I always just assumed the bones desiccated. I assumed that they disintegrated over.

Tom Huszti: OK. Ohh you did. OK.

Sean Finnegan: Time and then it it it kind of informed my thinking about, you know, the James Ossuary and the Caiaphas archery and some of these other ossuary findings, like some of the more sensationalized ones said we think we found Jesus and all this, which has been pretty much not accepted by scholarship but anyhow.Speaker 5The idea of.

Sean Finnegan: Bones lasting for centuries and centuries was just like common sense to ancient people because they didn't have this separation. Like we have from our dead. Like we don't, we don't. Know but like they would go.

Sean Finnegan:A year later.

Sean Finnegan: Back to the tomb and they would pick up the bones and put them in a. Little bone box. Space is limited and you want to fit as many ancestors, descendants, relatives in the same cave or tomb as possible. But you're not looking to, like, mix all the bones together. So yeah, it just kind of made sense to get a box the width of the skull and the length of a femur, and to use that to, you know, organize people and just scratch on the side, the person's name. And so I think this all goes back to whether we're talking about the amount of olives.

Tom Huszti: Yeah, yeah.

Tom Huszti: Oh, OK.

Sean Finnegan: To this day in Jerusalem, or we're talking about the austrias in the 1st century this or or Tovia Singer's preferences. This all goes back to the same thing which is this. Really strong belief in resurrection and so burying your dead in a way that preserves the bones or cares for the bones is is in a sense, I think a an act of faith that the Jewish people have always had. Again, I'm not saying that cremation is a sin or that it's going to damn somebody to, you know, eternal judgment or, you know, that's not where I'm going here, but I think.

Tom Huszti: Yes. No.

Sean Finnegan: We should ask the question, is this really this is really fit as Christians like I know it's less expensive. OK, but like is it? Is that always the right course of action? Just cause something's less expensive. So I I think burial. Traditional burial it can be an act of faith because you're saying I'm going to Mark Toome. I'm going to rise. Out of this to. Him so.

Tom Huszti: Let's get back to your your trip details. I'm trying to picture this, the framework of well picture this setting that the acts of the apostles was written in. Is Athens set on a hill?

Sean Finnegan: Well, the Acropolis certainly is.

Tom Huszti: The acropolises OK.

Sean Finnegan: Yeah. So, yeah, there there are definitely hills there. The propolis is a very high point in the center of Athens and it is kind of steep. I don't know what you call like a plateau that just. Rises out of nowhere. In the old days, that would be the spot where you would retreat to if Athens were invaded, because it can be held much longer.

Tom Huszti: Apostle Paul preached in that place.

Sean Finnegan: Well, I think he preached. On Mars. So which is right next to it. So it's yeah, it's right. Right nearby.

Tom Huszti: Can you imagine the possible Paul in that setting?

Sean Finnegan: Yeah. Well, I mean, the interesting thing about the apostle Paul at the Areopagus or Mars Hill is that he is looking at all these statues. And I when I was in Athens, I got to go to the museum.

Tom Huszti: Can you picture him there? Carry out this OK?

Sean Finnegan: The Acropolis Museum, which is. Walk. We got there and we went inside and you see all these statues? These are all these statues that they found? Of course. The Acropolis had actual temples to gods on it and that wouldn't have been unusual. There would be temples and statues of gods all throughout the city. And that's not weird for Athens. All Greco-roman cities had statues to gods, shrines, little other ways of worshipping their gods, you know, depending on what gods we're talking about, they're all a little different. You know, there's Paul. He's not really from the West, you know, for and for his perspective as as somebody from. Horses and cilicia. Athens is the. West, we say Athens is east, but for him that's.

Tom Huszti: OK, he's from us. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Sean Finnegan: West and you know, so for Paul, he would have seen plenty of this throughout his travels and stuff. But for whatever reason, his heart was just so troubled in Athens, he saw that people just in the city just given to this in Act 17, he finds this altar to the unknown God and he's like. All right, well, here's. Here's someplace where I can hook on a gospel presentation. Really good speaking. But it's interesting too, going back to our former conversation about burial and resurrection, when it comes to the part where Paul says that God has furnished proof by raising that Jesus is the Messiah by raising him from the dead. The Athenians had no trouble hearing that Jesus would be the Messiah. I don't think that was like a really understood category to them. They wouldn't have a hang up about that as him being a king or whatever. But when he says. He has given proof by raising him from the dead. Suddenly they're just like this is ridiculous. Everybody knows you don't want your body back again. This is stupid. I'm out of here. And like the Greeks, the Greeks, they're standard approach to the afterlife.

Tom Huszti: Ohh yeah yeah.

Sean Finnegan:That's right.

Sean Finnegan: Was to get rid of the body. It was not to keep the body or to get the body back. Restored and renewed. And so this. This was always a big issue between Jews and Christians. Agree on. Over against the the Greco-roman, whether the philosophers or just like the folk religion of like going down to Hades and you know all the stuff they, you know, they had stories about all that.

Tom Huszti: Have you been to Cesarea Philippi in Israel?

Sean Finnegan: Yeah, it's like they call it banya or.

Tom Huszti: Something banyas. Yes, banyas. And actually, I guess you know why it's called banyas.

Sean Finnegan: Well, there was a. Shrine to the God pan there.

Tom Huszti: Right pan, right. So the original name was panyas. But the Arabs have a hard time pronouncing the sound, so they change it to bond. Yes, believe it or not. But yes, yes, yes. So now.

Sean Finnegan: Well, that makes sense. Thank you.

Tom Huszti: You learn something. From me for a change, right? OK.

Sean Finnegan: There it is. There it is. Yeah. I have been there. It's a beautiful spot. And you know, again, talking about the heat and the the arid climate of Israel to have a place with a beautiful water supply.

Tom Huszti: Oh my.

Sean Finnegan: Like sensory flip by where you say, OK, this is it. This is going to be a big spot. This is going to be a place where people are going to want to go and build things and live because there's plenty of water.

Tom Huszti: Yes. Yeah.

Tom Huszti: Yeah, it's beautiful there, isn't it? Maybe the most beautiful place in Israel. In my my view, as far as the physicality of it, that's arguable, but.

Sean Finnegan: I don't know. I loved Dengeki. I thought it was.

Tom Huszti: And Betty was beautiful too. Yes. Also water the the shrine. So do you remember what the shrine of Pan looked like? And and with the details about what was happening there.

Sean Finnegan: Yeah, yeah. No, no, remind me.

Tom Huszti: OK, there's a a graven image of pan on the the wall of the the side of Mount Hermon, the base of Mount Hermon there. And there is a cave right next to it. And there would would have been an altar for a member, correct? There would have been an altar in front of The Cave, and they were doing sacrifices to the God pan, and they were throwing the sacrificed beast into The Cave and the Jordan River begins flowing from that area. So. There was some kind of a relationship to throwing the sacrifice into The Cave and and whether or not the blood came out at the Jordan River that cave. On the side of the mountain, Mount Hermon was supposed to be the gateway to the underworld.

Sean Finnegan: It is certainly the case that the Greeks and the Jews looked very differently at the dead. The Jewish mindset was at the dead are resting and they had the term show all for that. The sort of realm of the dead where all the dead are they're they're awaiting, they're asleep, they use that language. Lot, even in the the Christian New Testament. Tons of references, a lot of our translations, just like get rid of it and they say died or. Something like that. But that it actually says fall asleep or fell asleep. Ohh which you know the a Greek person wouldn't say that they would say no, they're in a different realm. And they're in the underworld of Hades, and Hades is not just a realm. It's also the name of a God who's in charge of all of those shades or departed souls. And you know, so, like, these are very different views. You know what I mean? And it's sad to say, but Christianity has more often than not. Agree with the pagans over against the early Christian. Of view, which is a shame, right?

Tom Huszti: Unfortunate indeed. Yes, it is in the the first conversation I had with Tovia Singer, we hit upon so many touch points that we agree upon resurrection life in the age to come. The term Messiah is something that we can talk freely about. There's so many things from my Christian view that actually are terms that you can talk to Jewish people in this present day about, especially those who are inclined to study the Old Testament. And that's a conversation that most nominal Orthodox kind of Christians cannot have with Jewish people. The the rule seems to be that Jews have to leave Judaism in order to come over to Christianity. But strangely enough, we received Christianity from the Jews. And so the context that you're you're seeing here is something that is is very interesting. In restoring Christianity to its 1st century foundations, which is your your big desire so.

Sean Finnegan: Yeah, yeah, I mean, that's what, that's what I'm all about, is trying to clear away the accretions of the Middle Ages and the post Christian. Developments and getting back to that original earlier version of Apostolic Christianity, you know what? What would the church have thought about this in the 1st century rather than in the 2nd and following centuries? The the subsequent centuries? And, you know, I'm not against technology. Renovation. But I am against changing our beliefs from what the New Testament says and that has happened a lot and it happens very slowly. And I've had a a a desire to understand that development. For a long. Time and did my masters on the subject and was really surprised to see that, you know, people are just not asking this question. Like I'm I'm a member. Of the even to this day of the the Boston area patristic society. OK. And so I get emails and, you know, invitations to attend their meetings, which I attended when I lived out there. And, you know, they're held either at Harvard or at Brown University or sometimes at Providence College as well as three schools have good patristic good, early church history programs. And you know so. They they issue these papers a couple. Of times a year. I don't know like 3 or. Four to five times a year and you know you have lint chocolates and a little wine and a little cheese. And you know, you sit around and, you know, just kind of listen in with these, you know, somebody presents on some aspects some facet of. Early church history. Three, I've been a member of this for I don't know a decade they have never done. A doctrine not once. Not once. There's no interest at all in doctrinal development or this mindset that says, hey, let's get back to living out our faith the way they lived out there is, as far as how we treat people or how we think about the government or whatever practical area. There's zero interest in that. In the the more liberal side of the fence and then on the conservative side of the fence, you have the Catholics that really dominate. And not that there aren't liberal Catholics. I'm sure there's plenty of them too. But I'm talking about the more conservative minded ones and they're always just trying to show that what the church teaches now is really what Christians have always believed. So it's apologetic. It's not OK, let's see what happened. It's more like, alright, well, this person like, for example Ignatius of Antioch, there's going to be an amazing presentation on this.

Tom Huszti: Come on.

Sean Finnegan: At the Unitarian Christian Alliance Conference next month, Nathan Massey has done some cutting edge research on Ignatius of Antioch. But anyhow, people, Catholic scholars in particular love Ignatius, and they'll go to Ignatius and they say, well, see, Ignatius calls Jesus God. Therefore, the Trinity is true as we, you know, 20 centuries later. Teach it it. It's it's all true because Ignatius said Jesus is God, and there's just more problems with that than you can shake a stick at, which you know I won't get into unless you're interested. But like my my point is. There's very few scholars who are honestly going to the sources of ancient Christians. Whatever books have survived right, and saying what were they saying? And and just taking them on their own words, their own terms, giving them the credit that they knew what they. Were talking about even. If it disagrees with what the? First later said was the right way to think, right? So let me let me just give. You one example. So for example. Justin Martyr, Justin Martyr doesn't fit with anybody, right? I mean, he's just idiosyncratic. He has his own way of thinking and talking. About things, he will even call Jesus, the second God sometimes. And you know he doesn't. Think at all that. Jesus, even in his preincarnate state, was equal. With God the. Father ever, you know, at the same time he's he's sort of like very much like in mesh with the Jews and and like very much talking to the Jews and at. The same time, incredibly rude. And it, you know, by what I would say, it's totally inappropriate. You know, some of the ways he he talks to in in one of his books, the book against Trifle. So yeah. So anyhow, Justin Moorer, you know, a church historian will come along and say, Justin, Monta was just.

Tom Huszti: Ohh trifle.Speaker 5You know, he was reaching in the dark for the doctrine of the Trinity. He just didn't quite have the language yet to express it, and it's like.

Sean Finnegan: No, he wasn't. He had a he had a mature developed view of who he thought Jesus was. And it's just different than yours, man. Just just. Allow him to be him.

Tom Huszti: He might have squeeze everybody into the.

Sean Finnegan:You know.

Tom Huszti: Same mold, huh?SpeakerHe's not.

Sean Finnegan: Hinting at anything he thinks he knows what he's talking about. You're not.

Tom Huszti: Right.

Tom Huszti: He wore the philosopher's robe, didn't he?

Sean Finnegan: He did, and he had a he had a a little meeting spot in Rome above a, you know, above a shop, you know, he had a little apartment or whatever, and he'd he'd meet with people and he'd teach him what he thought was the definitive understanding of the Christian religion, just because nobody else later on agrees with him doesn't mean he was just like. Undeveloped or something, you know, he he believes what he believed, and it's just different and that's OK. And what I see when I look at Justin or Irenaeus or, you know, a lot of these guys is I see development. And when I see development, I think to myself, let's rollback the tape and see the trajectory overtime. Yeah. What is the vector? Where is this heading? So if I see you know a couple of points on a line that go in One Direction, I could say OK, I make a measurement here, make a measurement here, connect those dots and trace it backwards. What's there in the? 1st century and that's that's what I love to do. That's what I want to know. That's my my research, my investigation to find. What's the earliest beliefs and practices and that I'm crazy enough to think we can live that out today?

Tom Huszti: Yeah, you are a strange bird, but I agree with you I. Guess I am too so.

Sean Finnegan: Well, and The thing is we both came to this from very different milieus, different backgrounds, denominations and so forth. But we both recognize that it makes logical sense that if the church has gotten off track. Then you know the best way to do it is to reform back to the, you know, whatever we can recover of the original version of Christian.

Tom Huszti: Right.

Sean Finnegan: And you know, that's. Yeah, it makes sense to me. A lot of people don't. They don't believe in Restorationism. They they say, oh, that's you can't go back there. It's impossible and it's like.

Tom Huszti: That's so true.

Sean Finnegan: Well, well, why let?

Tom Huszti: Me. Share you with you my thought on this. So the the 1st century church was waiting for the return of Jesus and it didn't happen in their age, but. We who claim to desire the return of Jesus need to be postured as they were. Like I'm I'm just. Wondering you know. Like if Christianity gets far enough away from their origins, it's an awful lot to ask Jesus to return when we've strayed so far from. What our forefathers believed so that the church that I was put out from is called the Apostolic Christian Church Nazarene. And the term Nazarene is a a term that is very, very honorable, I would say. But when you think in terms of the early church, the term Nazarene meant Jewish believers in Messiah. And I still call myself a Nazarene, even though my community has, for the by and large, has disfellowship. Hit me. I'd like to to trace my origins back to the the Nazarenes my my Jewish Brethren, believers in Jesus, and this is something that you touched upon in your. Your church history. You think you could fill us in a little bit about the views of different Jewish Christians, Abbey Knights and Nazarenes and. Any others that would kind of fit that category maybe give us a little summary.

Sean Finnegan: Yeah, to do work on the Ebionites or the Nazarenes is to read late reports. By their enemies. I don't know of a single document that survives other. Than I would. Argue that, dedicate, I would say that dedicat is a Nazarene document.

Tom Huszti: Oh wow.

Sean Finnegan: It reads that way to me. It has a low Christology. It's very Jewish, you know, it's very Christian, you know. And it it just seems to kind of fit that that mindset. So I would argue that the dedicate would be a Nazarene document. Now these these terms, Nazarene, it's actually in the New Testament. The sect of the Nazarenes. Where was that? They said.

Tom Huszti: Right, Paul Paul, was it? Yes, they did. That's correct. Yeah. Yes.

Sean Finnegan: That about Paul, right? Yeah. So that's old school. Right. But what we can kind of gather is from these late reports and when I say late, I'm talking like from the year 375, we get this heresy hunter named Epiphanius of Salamis and he writes a book called The Panarion. You know, so this is this is riding 300 years after all the action and the excitement has already happened, right? Where's where's the action? Where's the parting of the ways? As James Dunn's famous book called it? Well, it's really in that post 70AD pre. Justin. So like between like 70 AD when the temple.

Tom Huszti: Yeah, yeah.

Sean Finnegan: Got destroyed and the Romans conquered Jerusalem to the time of Justin Mortar where, like he begins in, you know, maybe like 135 was the 2nd revolution. Right. So you have the the bar Copa revolt.

Tom Huszti: Right.

Sean Finnegan: Actually, some people might call it a third revolution because there was another one in between the two, but whatever. It wasn't in. Jerusalem. But you know, in that period there, what is that like? Probably like 60-70 years something happened and there was a a splitting away and Gentile.

Tom Huszti: Ohh there was OK Ohh.

Sean Finnegan: Christians and Jewish Christians. Stops influencing each other. And it's a really murky period of time. Scholars have all kinds of theories from there was never a parting of the ways. What are you? Talking about to it.

Tom Huszti: Uh-huh. Well.

Sean Finnegan: It happened because of this or because of that. But let's just put it this way, the the the official Christian line on it has always been since. The time of Eusebius. That the followers of Jesus when they. Saw the Roman legions coming. Abandoned the city of Jerusalem. And if that's true and they, he says they went to power, they went to this other area. If that's true, then the native Jewish people who stayed and fought and died. And then many of them also survived. Would not very much like the Jewish Christians because. They didn't stay, they didn't like.

Tom Huszti: So you're talking for 70, you're talking about from 70 AD that the Christians would have left.

Sean Finnegan: Yeah. Yeah. So, like, after the city is conquered by the Romans, things kind of settle down politically. I mean, I guess the last holdouts are at Masada up until what, like 7370?

Tom Huszti: Right.

Sean Finnegan: 4 but like. Then that OK, this period ends, the Romans have reasserted their dominance. But you know a lot of Jewish people survive and and. And they're not looking at the Jewish Christians positively, they're looking at them negatively. And we have this Birkat hominem. Yes. Are you familiar with that? It says for the apostates, let there be no hope and uproot the Kingdom of arrogance speedily. And in our days, may the Nazarenes and the sectarians perish, as in a moment let them be blotted out of the book of life.

Tom Huszti: I am.

Sean Finnegan: And and so forth. So it's like OK by the time of Justin, he makes mention of this and he says you. Know why? Why? You guys cursing us in your synagogues, right? So like Justin knows about it, so. It's got to be before 160 and it's. Probably after the month.

Tom Huszti: So let me ask you this, would that curse? Be specific to Jewish believers in Messiah Jesus. She will. Or would it? That was specifically for them because they were thought they were thought to be created.

Sean Finnegan: Well, they they would be the ones to go to the synagogue. So this is something. That would be spoken. Publicly in the synagogue, along with the other blessings and.

Tom Huszti: OK. Ah. So that would discourage them from attending synagogue.

Sean Finnegan: It would expose them as well because they wouldn't be able to recite that.

Tom Huszti: Oh, they wouldn't be able to recite it, OK.

Sean Finnegan: You can't curse yourself, you know. It's just awkward.

Tom Huszti: Yes, so so so.SpeakerYou know, right.

Tom Huszti: During the time of the Barkha revolt, the Jewish believers in Yeshua Miss Jesus would not have taken up arms against the Romans and this would have been a further offense against the. Against the revolution, revolutionaries against the Jews.

Sean Finnegan: Well, you know. We we see we see rumblings even before in the I don't know if it's the Jewish war or the antiquity of the of the. Jews with Josephus. He talks about how there was a power vacuum just for a moment in Jerusalem and during that power vacuum when the old governor had, I don't know if he died or just had left or whatever happened to him. But the new governor, I think, was Albinus, was on his way then the non Christian. Jewish people were able to gang up on James, and when James was fairly old brother of Jesus and that they were able to more or less lynch him, you know, they just got a mob together and they they were able to to kill.

Tom Huszti: A friend.

Sean Finnegan: Him. So there was already animosity before the war. War starts in 66, you know it. It did blow up from time to time. We see it in the book of Acts. Right. There's a lot of animosity between the Jewish Christians, the non Christian Jews. OK, so this this continues. But after the war.SpeakerOK.

Tom Huszti: Right.

Sean Finnegan: It it's it seems like there's not even much real space left for Jewish Christians to even go to a synagogue with this curse that's put there specifically against them. Again, the war is such a massive historical event. The Jewish War of Rome, 66 to 74, where I mean, how many kinds of Judaism. Do we know? About from the 1st century, you have your Sadducees, you have your Essenes, you have the rebellious types. They call the 4th philosophy and Josephus. You have your Pharisees, and then you have the Christian Jews.

Tom Huszti: They would be the zealot. Would there be the zealots or the sikari?

Sean Finnegan: Yeah, yeah, that would be the 4th philosophy. The Zealots, the sicari, all the revolutionary types. Right. So you have like, five types of Judaism. And so the Christian Jews.

Tom Huszti: OK. OK.

Sean Finnegan: Five and the Pharisaic Jews survive, but the Sadducees, the Essenes, and the revolutionaries. They're all gone, or completely disempowered.

Tom Huszti: OK.

Sean Finnegan: After the war, so now you have pharisaic Judaism, which eventually kind of develops into rabbinic Judaism, and you have the Jesus Jews. And they gave birth to the Christian movement, which is kind of like, it's almost like in a sense gone public like a like a corporation offers an IPO. And then, like, the, the company has kind of a life of its own, independent of what the founder, really.

Tom Huszti: Yeah. OK.SpeakerHis vision was.

Sean Finnegan: And maybe that's a good analogy for it, cause like Christianity goes pretty much Gentile and there it's Jew and Gentile together in the 1st century for sure. But like as we get into the 2nd century. The kinds of literature that survive from Christian pens. It's just like either ignorant of Jewish practices and interpretations of the Old Testament or outright antagonistic, where you get like documents from like the middle of the 2nd century. Like I'm thinking of the Epistle of Barnabas, and some of the other documents in the Apostolic Fathers, where like they're just like you, Jews are crazy because you kept the law. And it's like, how could you ever say that if you're if you're a little more aware of what the, you know, that that was the law that God gave to the Jewish people to keep, why would they be crazy to keep it? Right? So it seems like there's just a parting of the ways. And that's the term James Dunn used for it. And, you know, we just wish so much that we had. We have more information about it. We just kind of get these little bits and pieces. We don't know exactly how it happened. We just know that it happened.SpeakerOh yeah.

Tom Huszti: Some hostile witnesses, of all places.

Sean Finnegan: So now you've got. These Jewish Christians, Tom and they're kind of isolated in the east, they're not well loved by the Gentile Christians or they don't have access or I don't know, for whatever reason, there's just not a lot of interaction, which is tragic in my opinion.

Tom Huszti: Yeah. Yes.SpeakerBut they're also.

Sean Finnegan: Alienated from their own Jewish brothers and sisters because they're not allowed in the synagogue and you know, if you're in a little village and there's only one place putting shoes on horses. Or doing some other craft or trade. And they don't want to sell to you. Guess what? You're in trouble, you know, because you're one of the Nazarenes or. One of the Ebionites.

Tom Huszti: Sure, sure.

Sean Finnegan: So you know these people had a really tough go of it and you know, we hear about them later on and they may have survived pretty well. Outside the Roman Empire, in the east, in the Persian Empire. But we don't know much about that either, so it's really hard to do scholarship on them. There are more questions than answers, but my best guess, OK. And that's really what it is, is it's a guess is that the community of James, the brother of Jesus, they didn't really get on board. With what Paul? And Gentile Christianity was doing they got on board to a certain degree and and this we see this conflict in the book of. Acts 15 and then later.

Tom Huszti: Yeah, 15.

Sean Finnegan: On in .2 what happens is.SpeakerThey say all.

Sean Finnegan: Right. Well, you you can have. Gentiles and they don't need to keep the law. Fine, but we Jews are going to keep the law. Still, I don't think Paul got on board with that. Paul would say Jews don't need to keep the law either. Obviously they can. Anybody can keep the law. Who wants to? But Jewish Christians, I should say I should be clear. I'm not talking about just Jews in general. I'm saying Jews who believe in Jesus because of a covenantal understanding expressed later.

Tom Huszti: Yes, yes.

Sean Finnegan: In the Book of Hebrews, whoever wrote Hebrews that it is clear that Jewish Christians don't need to keep the law. James and his group of Jewish Christians disagree with. That viewpoint, they say no. This is the covenant. We're Jewish Christians. We're going to continue to keep the law. So I think this James Community is what left during the war and survived north and east of Jerusalem. And that then this community had a doctrinal division where some of them. Accepted the Gospel of Matthew, which possibly was in Hebrew or Aramaic. You know some language that the people could readily read.

Tom Huszti: OK.

Sean Finnegan: There are lots of hints of that in the patristic literature. People talk about it quite a bit. They don't talk about any other writing. From the new. Testament, all the other books in the New Testament. They never mentioned as being in Hebrew, just Matthew.

Tom Huszti: Wow, just Matthew cross.

Sean Finnegan: It's the only one. Yeah. So why would you? Put it in Hebrew, whether it was written in Hebrew originally or translated into Hebrew. Why would why? Because you have Jewish people. Reading it. You read the Gospel of Matthew. What does it begin with? A genealogy? Who loves genealogies? The Greeks? No, they don't care about genealogies. The Jews love genealogies. So Matthew begins by making a convincing argument that this Jesus of Nazareth has a claim. And. Could possibly be the Messiah because of his ancestry. That's how it starts. So you've got this community and in. The Gospel of Matthew as well as. Luke, you have. The virgin birth. You have the virgin conception and you know this idea that in in some way Jesus is the son of God.Speaker 5Some of the.

Sean Finnegan: Jewish Christians in this community don't believe that. And others do, and that is, and again, this is a reconstruction based on hostile sources like Epiphanius, and you siberius, and there are plenty of later ones too. Like Jerome mentions this stuff and it, and and it's even possible that these Jewish Christians survive. Arrived and they there was some interaction with them. It wasn't just all hearsay. OK, but it's possible for us to know today how reliable these reports are. But so you have the James, Jewish Christians. They go away from Jerusalem and they settle in north and east of of Jerusalem. And they have this difference.

Tom Huszti: OK.

Sean Finnegan: Among them the ones who? Believe in the virgin birth. Are Nazarenes the ones that do not? Are Ebionites both of them believe that Jesus is a human being?

Tom Huszti: Right.

Sean Finnegan: Whom God anointed as a Messiah. They both believe in crucifixion. Both believe in resurrection. Both believe in Ascension. Both believe in the coming Kingdom. So the question is, you know whether he is biologically. Whatever that means, you know, like, if there was this miracle to get him started or if he was the son of Joseph. OK, so that's that seems to be the disagreement there between the Nazarenes and the Ebionites. And here's here's just one more thing to complicate it, make it worse is some Christians will call both groups of unites.

Tom Huszti: Yeah, that's a mistake.

Sean Finnegan: And they're saying, well, some of you guys believe this and some even nice believe. That it's like.

Tom Huszti: Yes, right. Well, it seems to me the very, very important doctrines they agreed upon. And I know I noticed in the Apostle Paul's writing, he never mentions the virgin birth, he does emphasize. The authority that Jesus received through the resurrection, most notably in Romans chapter one, that's where.

Sean Finnegan: Yeah. I mean, I think the closest pull comes is Galatians 4 four, where it says when the fullness of time had come, God sent forth his son born of a woman born under the law. Sort of like the closest. To it you. Can interpret that a number of different ways.

Tom Huszti: So it's fascinating to understand that we've actually lost connection to a large extent to the original source of our our gospel message. And I suppose that makes that makes your challenge of restoring 1st century Christianity even a bit. Your task you're trying to recreate these things based on what you know and based on hostile witness accounts.

Sean Finnegan: Here's the good news. We still have the Bible. We have the New Testament. You know, we can read it, we can see. And it's not like the New Testament is hiding or covering over any controversy like the The Paul. James, things is is is plain as day in Galatians like pull, yes, pull lays it out, you know, and I and. I'm going with Paul on. This I'm going to. I'm going to disagree with James. I think he was a great. And but I think he just didn't have the full understanding of how Jesus, through his actions, how he affected our relationship with God and and this whole understanding of covenant. So I'm going to go with Paul on that. What happened among Pauline Christianity is. A development that slowly moved away from the New Testament read from a Jewish perspective because I think Pauline Christianity basically got swamped by Gentiles.

Tom Huszti: Yeah, I think so.

Tom Huszti: Too and I.

Sean Finnegan: Think the leaders. Of Pauline Christian. Probably not in his day, but maybe within a generation or two. Became highly educated intellectual gentiles who were financially well off enough to get an education because education costs them money. Otherwise you got a farm or you got to do a craft or a trade, right? So is that is that sort of movement occurred away from? Apostles and their appointed success. More towards these intellectuals. We get Christian doctrine shifting away from what's in the New Testament into these more Greek and Roman ways of thinking. And that's kind of an area where I've been doing a lot of work recently. Trying to understand. Especially on Christology, how would a a Greek or a Roman person? How would they hear the story of Jesus? What would that sound like to them? And so I've done a lot of work on that and I'm going to be presenting that in a month as well at the UCLA conference. Yeah. But that will be out later on YouTube as well. If you don't make.

Tom Huszti: Ohh at the OK. But that should be very interesting.

Sean Finnegan: It to the conference, you know.

Tom Huszti: I bought my ticket already. Ohh, good. Yes. Yes. I'll look forward to that. I guess we probably shouldn't talk too much about it in advance because we have to. We don't want to. Take the the. Thunder out of your presentation.

Sean Finnegan: Well, I I just mentioned, I'll just mention one thing, OK. So let's imagine you're a non believer, you're a Pagan. You've worshiped the gods all your life. You've heard stories about Apollo getting banished down to Earth and having to work as a servant. You've heard stories about Zeus coming down impregnating women. You've heard stories about.

Tom Huszti: Hercules. Dad. Huh, Hercules. Dad.

Sean Finnegan: You've heard stories about Hercules as well, and Asclepius was originally a human who got deified, and he got deified to such a level that he became essentially an Olympian God, that that level of. Elevation and exultation was possible. So you hear all these stories about these gods who come down to become men, or appear as men being made in appearance as a man, right? Like this is this. Is their vocabulary. That's their world. And then you hear lots of stories.

Tom Huszti: Yes, yes, right.

Sean Finnegan: Humans, who had a beginning normal humans, but were so exceptional that they got to skip Hades and instead go to Olympia or instead go to some heavenly realm like.

Tom Huszti: OK.

Sean Finnegan: You this is just your.Speaker 5World these are all your stories.

Tom Huszti: OK. Uh-huh.

Sean Finnegan: Now you're going to hear a story about a miracle worker, Jewish miracle worker. Who was executed came back to life. And now lives in heaven. And is immortalized. You have a category for that. Kind of a being.

Tom Huszti: OK.

Sean Finnegan: It's called a God.

Tom Huszti: Yeah. Yes.

Sean Finnegan: Like in our in our language. Today we would say a lower case G God, right? They didn't fuss with capital. A lowercase. You know, like everything's capital pretty much and all the inscriptions we have in the manuscripts from this period, right. So they would just say, oh, that yeah, we. I know, I know. Plenty of other beings that are like that too. Yeah, they're they're called. Gods. And so you're you're trying to say that Jesus is a man and now he's become.

Tom Huszti: OK.

Sean Finnegan: God. So like you could just imagine a like an evangelism encounter going like that. And if you don't have that Jewish sensibility to say, well, hold on a second.SpeakerThere's only.

Sean Finnegan: One God, and that's the supreme God who created everything. You can just see like Christian saying well. Yeah, I guess so. Like in that way of thinking. Yeah, he's a God. So now people. Start calling Jesus God. And now the question becomes well, in what sense has he got? Does he have a beginning before he was a human, you know, and you're just operating in a totally foreign. World View, mindscape than the Jewish mode, which is the Jewish mode, sees Jesus doing miracles and they say how great it is that God has given such authority to men.

Tom Huszti: Right.

Sean Finnegan: What do they say when they see a miracle in the book of acts, when Paul and Barnabas?

Tom Huszti: Right.

Sean Finnegan: You know, get that guy filled.

Tom Huszti: The gods are come down to us, the gods.

Sean Finnegan: Of course, that's what they. Said that's what they believe could happen, right? We really have two different thought worlds that are combining in in weird and innovative ways. And that's just like one step along the path that leads to the doctrine of the Trinity, which doesn't really get fully developed until the late 4th century.

Tom Huszti: Yeah, yeah. Oh yeah.

Tom Huszti: So Paul is trying to emphasize that Jesus is a human being, a second Adam. So that has a different flavor to it, like you have to. Paula is using the first Adam story to introduce the second Adam. And this is a glorified human being who is residing in heaven until God sends him back. That's a different. Category isn't it? For the Greco Roman mine?

Sean Finnegan: Yeah, they don't. They don't. That doesn't. That doesn't make sense to them. You know, it's just that's just weird. That's like resurrection. Like, why do you want your body back? And what did Christianity do with that one? We get rid of it. You go to any funeral like unless it's somebody from my own group of churches, network of churches, or maybe like one or one or two other denominations. Right. Like you go to a funeral. What 99% of the? Funerals you go to they. Say this person is now in heaven and their soul. Whatever you know, they make up all this stuff. You know, it sounds just like the Greco Roman stuff from the ancient times. It doesn't sound. Like the Bible.

Tom Huszti: Right, yes. Can you imagine sitting in the audience when Paul was preaching from the Acropolis?

Sean Finnegan: Not to me.

Tom Huszti: Can you put yourself in the in the shoes of a a Greek sitting in the audience hearing this message for the first time? And you know the setting. What would have impressed you or what you already mentioned this earlier but like if you as an individual were doing this? What would be going through your mind? Given your background and context.

Sean Finnegan: Well, I think. There's a lot of misunderstanding going on. And and that's just normal. We shouldn't be upset about that. We should expect that. I think we see the same thing today. In the 21st century, where you try to explain something and somebody just doesn't get it, who's not a Christian, and I think that's what was happening here. And what happened is Paul is is evangelizing people. He's talking to people in the marketplace, his Jewish sensibilities, I think, are offended by seeing a city full of idols. It's just as somebody who was raised with the 10 Commandments, it's offensive. I mean, it's offensive to most Christians. Well, I don't say most, but many Christians today are offended. By seeing idols and statues and seeing people actually worshiping them, Paul is very disturbed by this. He's trying to to help. He's reasoning in the synagogue. And also in the marketplace every day. You've got the Epicureans, you've got the Stoics there, and then they say this is act 1718, he says. He seems to be a preacher of foreign deities. Because he was preaching Jesus and the resurrection and see the word resurrection, there is Anastasia.

Tom Huszti: OK. It's a Greek.

Sean Finnegan: Word it means resurrection. You know, stand up again, but it seems like. And I I think some translations might do it this way, that they're thinking that. Jesus is 1 divinity. And they think that Paul saying that Jesus is divine being, which is interesting, right in light of what I said just a minute ago. And then the other thing they think resurrection is is another divinity. Right. So there's just. Misunderstandings all over the place. They're. Like you know, it seems like he's bringing in some new gods. Let's go here. What these new gods have to say, he's kind of like you. Remember. Back in the old days, kids would collect baseball cards. Or like when my kids were little, it was Pokémon cards. And you know, you trade with each other. This one, it's like gods to the, to the Athenians. You know, they're like, oh, you've got that. Tell me about that. God, I let me tell you.

Tom Huszti: OK.

Sean Finnegan: The story about this. One you know, so they're.

Tom Huszti: Yes, yes.

Sean Finnegan: Interested. And they put them up there and they say, OK, what is this new teaching? Tell us what this is all. About and so we know. There's going to be misunderstanding. We know there's going to be confusion, but that's no reason not to get started. And so he does. He starts in a very friendly and flattering way.

Tom Huszti: He used their own poets. Their own poetry. Yeah, yeah.

Sean Finnegan: He's building the bridge as much as he can to their thought world, but at the same time. He's so disturbed. Buy the idolatry that like he just. He just wants to hit that, you know, like it's just and it's not. It's not out of sense of superiority. I don't think. I think it's a sense of empathy and compassion. And so it just starts in with, like, explaining who God is. And he's like there's a God above everything else that made everything else. And he doesn't need you. He doesn't need you to. To offer animals. And he believed in animal sacrifice. I don't know if he still believed in animal sacrifice or not, but he believed in it. At least most of his life. And still, he's just like, look, he doesn't need. He doesn't need anything. God is radically. What do they say? Ah, say he's not contingent or dependent on us for anything, and that's not. How they thought about their Greek gods. They thought their Greek gods needed to be cared for. They believed that the Greek gods created humans to do the work for them, so they didn't have to do the work all the time, including feeding them these sacrifices that nourish them.SpeakerRight.

Tom Huszti: Right, right.

Tom Huszti: A hutch.

Sean Finnegan: You know it's a.

Tom Huszti: Very the gods. They were very dependent. They're their gods, were very dependent.

Sean Finnegan: They needed a bunch of slaves to do all the hard work of cultivating the lands, raising the animals, planting the vegetables, do all the things so that they could be properly cared for and fed. And if you didn't do that, then they messed with you. They stopped the rain, or they brought war or whatever, you know. So that's the kind of thing he's coming against here. And he says, look there the the God who made the world and everything in it, Lord of heaven and Earth, does not need temples. This is a radical message. I mean, it's just like. You're in a. City, now that I've been there, like I've literally seen the temples.SpeakerWith my or.

Tom Huszti: Not they're still there. They're still there. Tom remnants. Amazing.

Sean Finnegan: Wow, there's actually, when I was there was scaffolding all around it. You know, they're always restoring these things because of the weather erosion and what, you know, but.

Tom Huszti: OK.

Sean Finnegan: You know, massive, massive. Structures unquestionable. You don't go to a Greek ancient Greek city and say God doesn't need tempo.

Tom Huszti: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Sean Finnegan: You know that they. Would really get their attention, it's. Like, wow, what is this guy saying?

Tom Huszti: Yeah, I can imagine. What would it like these temples were full of pillars and the structure would have been probably unprecedented structures.

Sean Finnegan: Yeah, yeah. I mean, we're looking at structures that are so impressive that if you didn't live in a city. If you live somewhere out in the country, you can't in the city. It would just take your breath away and then going into the temple itself, seeing most cities, temples they have what's called an apps, which is kind of like the back curved area where they had the statue itself and to see, you know, this huge statue. The artistry was magnificent. And you know, I've seen this where I think I saw this in a museum in Ephesus, on site, they have a little Ephesus museum there. And they had the head of Domitian. Which is a Roman. And it looked like a baby head. The proportions were all wrong. You know, just you know how, like, baby heads look. Weird, I don't know really how to describe it like there. May be a little spot.

Tom Huszti: Oh yeah, yeah. Compared to the rest. Of the body you mean?

Sean Finnegan: No, no, it was just the head. It was just the head and it and it. It looked like a baby head. And I asked my team. I was a part of a class at Boston University. I asked my teacher. I'm like, what's the deal with this? Why does it look like a baby head? And he just kind of laughed a little bit. And he said.

Tom Huszti: Or it was just a hat? A hat. OK, OK.

Sean Finnegan: Get low. Imagine this being 20 feet up in the air. Change your perspective and look at it again and it was exactly right. If you got. Low and looked at that same head. Of the mission. From that angle that you would see it. From the ground. All the proportions were perfect.

Tom Huszti: So it was designed to be looked up to right?

Sean Finnegan: So we're looking at people that have the. Artistry of the skill. Well, to to you know to like factor in perspective and angle. You know what I mean? Like that's something I would never think of you.SpeakerOh yeah.

Sean Finnegan: Know. Of course I'm. Not a sculptor, but you know. I mean, you come in and you and you're.Speaker 5Confronted by this?

Sean Finnegan: Stone object that is beautifully done. You just takes your breath away. For anyone to question it. It would just be like. What are you talking about, man? Everybody believes in this. And then there's a parade where they bring the portable idols through the city, and then they end up out front of the temple and you get a big barbecue and everybody's rejoicing and you know, the Jews and the Christians are just like, we're not going, we're going to stay home free.

Tom Huszti: Oh yeah.

Tom Huszti: Neat, right? And