My guest today is Dr. Jason Hickel – professor at the Institute for Environmental Science & Technology (ICTA) at the Autonomous University of Barcelona, and author of The Divide and Less Is More. This is our second conversation on the podcast, and it comes at a moment of escalating geopolitical violence – in Iran, Lebanon, Cuba, and beyond.In this episode, we get into how these conflicts are symptoms of capitalist imperialism: Western states asserting dominance over sovereign-seeking states to protect their own growth. We dive into eco...
My guest today is Dr. Jason Hickel – professor at the Institute for Environmental Science & Technology (ICTA) at the Autonomous University of Barcelona, and author of The Divide and Less Is More. This is our second conversation on the podcast, and it comes at a moment of escalating geopolitical violence – in Iran, Lebanon, Cuba, and beyond.
In this episode, we get into how these conflicts are symptoms of capitalist imperialism: Western states asserting dominance over sovereign-seeking states to protect their own growth. We dive into ecosocialism as an alternative to capitalism, and what economic democracy actually looks like in practice. We cover China’s rise – how its economy actually works, why the West has turned against it, and what it means for the Global South – and we end with a discussion of how to build the mass movements capable of bringing a better future to life.
You can support the Better Future podcast by becoming a paid subscriber on Substack:
https://betterfuturemedia.substack.com/
Here are links to the resources mentioned in our conversation:
- Mondragon Corporation, the worker-owned cooperative federation in Spain that Jason mentions as a real-world model of economic democracy: https://www.mondragon-corporation.com/en/
- GKN Factory in Florence, Italy, which workers have converted from an auto parts plant into a solar panel factory: https://jacobin.com/2023/04/italy-gkn-factory-occupation-transform-production-workers-jobs-climate-change
- Jason’s Substack article on “delinking”: https://jasonhickel.substack.com/p/what-is-delinking
- Global Inequality Project, a research platform by Jason and team that publishes data on imperialism, unequal exchange, and global inequality: https://globalinequality.org/
Learn more about Jason Hickel and his work: https://www.jasonhickel.org/
Follow Jason Hickel on social media:
Twitter: https://x.com/jasonhickel
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/drjasonhickel/
Bluesky: https://bsky.app/profile/jasonhickel.bsky.social
Subscribe to the Better Future podcast on your preferred platform:
YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@michaelmezz
Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/16K0dkbk35q0mTslKJJ7z0
Apple: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/better-future-with-michael-mezz/id1823942833
Pocket Casts: https://pca.st/4mgozhfv
Follow Michael on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/michael__mezz/
Follow the Better Future Podcast on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/betterfuturepod/
00:00 What capitalism really is
01:09 Introducing Jason Hickel
02:20 Capitalist imperialism in action: Venezuela, Iran, Lebanon
05:27 Why the US supports Israel
08:45 Capitalism, coups & the war on sovereignty
22:13 How capitalism creates poverty
25:25 Socialism as a solution
31:41 Why solving the climate crisis means overcoming capitalism
36:09 Economic democracy in practice
48:09 Elections vs. revolution: building a mass movement
57:01 The immiseration of the Western working class
59:28 Socialism is our best alternative to fascism
1:06:31 The limits of identity politics
1:13:52 Why the West fears China’s rise
1:20:16 How China builds what the West won’t
1:32:54 Delinking from the capitalist law of value
1:38:02 Hope for a better future
1:46:51 Conclusion
Host/Creator: Michael Mezzatesta
Guest: Jason Hickel
Editor: Nuria Salgado
Designer: Amea Wadsworth
Producer: Jade Risser
Thanks for watching episode 016. Stay tuned for more!
