William Gray is the guy behind Floor Charts, the website and Twitter feed that documents all things graphic in the US Congress. During the day, Bill oversees the strategic communications efforts at R Street and manages its growing Communications team, including overseeing the public relations, digital and events units. He joined the organization in 2020.
Previously, William was communications director at Issue One, the leading cross partisan political reform group in Washington, where he helped launch and executive produce the first conservative political reform podcast, Swamp Stories. Prior to Issue One, he managed press and negotiated news partnerships as the media relations specialist for the Center for Public Integrity, one of the oldest nonprofit investigative newsrooms in the country; and was a producer at C-SPAN, delivering daily public affairs programming and coverage of Congress and the White House to viewers around the world.
William received his master of liberal arts in journalism from the Harvard University Extension School in Massachusetts and his BA in English from Centre College in Kentucky. In his free time he archives charts, props, and posters used by Congress and the Executive Branch as @FloorCharts.
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00:00.72
Jon Schwabish
Hey Bill we did it. We got together at last. It’s been so long. Good to see you. How are you.
00:06.90
Bill Gray
It Jon it’s great to see you? Yeah, it feels. It’s been basically a year where we’ve been punting calendars back and forth being like when is there not a crisis when are we not on vacation when is there not a flood or a leak or lord knows what else. So I know.
00:17.90
Jon Schwabish
Right? Or so big. Great Yep, it’s getting hurt kids getting sick. Oh man. Um, well, it’s great to see you because it has been. It has been a while. Um.
00:25.64
Bill Gray
Yep.
00:29.25
Jon Schwabish
And excited to to talk all things coms policy floor charts. All the all the good stuff. Um, so I think so you know I usually ask people when I do these interviews to talk a little bit about themselves. But what’s interesting is when I do that most people know you know.
00:33.65
Bill Gray
Here for it.
00:46.19
Jon Schwabish
Sarah Smith they know who Sarah Smith is they just you know maybe don’t know their background right? But interestingly I’m not sure most people like know the guy behind floor charts. So this is like for many people like the introduction to the guy behind floor charts. So um, yeah, so maybe just like.
00:54.17
Bill Gray
Oh.
01:02.31
Bill Gray
It is.
01:05.87
Jon Schwabish
Who you are where you came from what you’re doing now and then we can then we can. We can talk about all the 4 chart stuff in a bit. But yeah.
01:10.18
Bill Gray
Sure, absolutely yeah, so first off floor charts is me. It’s not 27 people um I do feel like because I never sleep people are like oh somebody the floor charts responded I was like no it was me so yes, ah so.
01:14.73
Jon Schwabish
E. Yeah.
01:25.55
Bill Gray
You and I met way back when when I ah kicked this crazy project off in 2012 when I was a night producer at c-span just my day job was watching and producing the house and the senate constantly and I’ll get into more of the background later but basically that intersection of like tumblrs. High point with news’s interest and then Twitter being the place like anybody who loved infographics anybody who loved charts you found yourself on an online platform. You know you me Robert Carro like just being like that newspaper chart is no good. Why did we make a chart of that or what was congress just doing.
01:48.54
Jon Schwabish
And.
01:59.40
Jon Schwabish
Um, yeah, yeah, right making pictures making cool pictures right? yeah.
02:00.21
Bill Gray
And in your own cbo background. It was like oh this is just cool right? Like we found after high school after college in the work world. You found a bunch of nerds who kind of wanted to talk about nerd things. Um, you knows yeah exactly basically? um so yeah, like I said like 2012 is when all this started so we have.
02:17.59
Jon Schwabish
E he.
02:18.51
Bill Gray
Ten Plus years of fun to cover. Um, but for yeah for those who don’t know like my name is Bill Gray I live in Dc I work in policy communications. Yeah similar to you right? like trying to take those great ideas and. Shrink them enough to be digestible. Um, right without missing the point. Um, you know went from being a journalist and realizing that as much as I loved journalism and you know for me I came to Dc explicitly to work for c-span right? like that. Wonderful place that everybody forgets exists sometimes because it’s always on and that was the dream.
02:32.55
Jon Schwabish
Um, yeah.
02:46.81
Jon Schwabish
Um, me great. Yeah, right.
02:50.69
Bill Gray
Right? Like not to be the story just to like absorb everything and then realized after a few years that I enjoyed talking about the work they were doing more than I enjoyed producing the work itself right? and because for anybody who doesn’t know c-span. It’s not the house senate in white house. It’s also decades of interviews and books and like. There’s even like an award winning miniature documentary of someone sculpting a b lincolnkin’s head in life size narrating his life as it ages like there is so much history that I was like oh I’ve just got to talk about this all the time right? and you know Howard Mortman who’s their communications director who is you know one of my idols.
03:19.61
Jon Schwabish
Um, okay yeah.
03:30.42
Bill Gray
Um, he he and I used to talk and he was just like you love doing what I do almost more than you love journalism and I was like oh that’s really smart I should just go talk about policy and journalism of these things much more. Um and so over over 10 years found myself eventually where I am now which is I’m communications director for a. Ah, growing thing tank called the rstreetinstitute um, probably everybody knows us because Shoshaa Weissman um of Twitter fame a senator of East Virginia um in all tongue in cheekness is our digital communications director and she’s probably tweeting south park memes at you to explain electricity policy today. Um. We. You know we love pirates and star wars and all the nerdy things in the world have a director of canine policy because we like dogs. Um and my day job is basically taking thirty forty scholars worth of work and being like how do we amplify for impact this kind of what we call policy victories at the margins of like. Until Texas froze over a few years ago did you think about where your electricity came from right? You know the youth vaping crisis and how do you balance harm reduction for adults with a youth vaping crisis right? like those those kind of like deep policy issues at the state and federal level don’t always make the front page but when they do.
04:28.33
Jon Schwabish
And.
04:35.79
Jon Schwabish
Yeah, yeah.
04:46.48
Bill Gray
We’re we’re standing there like all right who wants to talk about a solution First mindset you know because our goal is not always perfect absolute you know, end end of day nobody could write a better solution. It’s what is feasible. It’s going to save lives What is feasible. It’s going to improve lives and then keep iterating during implementation right? that kind of.
04:48.13
Jon Schwabish
A.
05:06.39
Bill Gray
You know policy first you know politics second kind of agenda. Um, and it’s fun to be there until you realize you’re talking about flood insurance during hurricanes right and electricity during freezes and that like every day you don’t get the policy done. There’s real world impact on it right? And so.
05:13.20
Jon Schwabish
Yeah.
05:18.45
Jon Schwabish
Yeah, you.
05:22.64
Bill Gray
You know it bleeds it leads drives news and for us you know and I feel like you’re part of this and you know at the Urban Institute like policy is slow and change. But when it happens it can be monumental right in impact. Um, so yeah, we’ve we’ve got I think a 9 person communications events and digital team and it’s different kind of fun every day.
05:30.55
Jon Schwabish
Yeah, right.
05:37.20
Jon Schwabish
Great. So before we get into floor charts I want to I want to talk about the digital com strategy because floor charts is a Twitter lives in Twitter Twitter depending on your perspective Twitter is dying is dead is whatever.
05:46.68
Bill Gray
Yeah.
05:55.92
Jon Schwabish
Um, but over the last ten years like the digital landscape has changed so tremendously. So I guess ah the question’s fairly general here I guess but like where where are you and your team thinking about digital coms now with this changing landscape.
05:57.30
Bill Gray
Yep.
06:02.90
Bill Gray
Is.
06:10.60
Bill Gray
Yeah, so and and you for those who don’t know and you probably do Jon has a book called elevate the debate about policy calms and I’m and I’m just flagging it because I bought this when it came out and I give it to a lot of my communications team because our street. Especially.
06:16.34
Jon Schwabish
Easy.
06:27.51
Bill Gray
We are a grass tops focusedcu audience specifically we are not grassroots which means we left Facebook behind a long time ago right? And so our our digitally shoshhana weissan you know and I knew each other before I go into work at RStreet and be her boss and it was always kind of 2 major platforms Twitter and Linkedin.
06:32.50
Jon Schwabish
Yeah, yeah.
06:46.37
Bill Gray
Right? Like Twitter because the the bar to entry was so low right? Every member of congress had a Twitter account you know after hard work by Twitter to make sure that that constituent policymaker communication bridge was built um and now you know we’re trying she’s she’s trying every platform under the sun because for us. Especially because we also do state policy the ability for her to just get pained by a state person to be like hey we’ve never encountered this policy problem. Do you guys? Can you guys help us? Do you know, somebody who can help us. Um and and you know I can’t I can’t say enough to people that you know if you had told me.
07:14.70
Jon Schwabish
You hear.
07:24.20
Bill Gray
You know when I came to DC that you know a digital media director who loves to post south park memes was going to be invited to Utah and Colorado to to sit down with policy teams and say let’s talk about occupational licensing and barriers to like nurses crossing state lines to like help during a pandemic I would have been like what.
07:38.88
Jon Schwabish
Um, yeah e.
07:43.40
Bill Gray
Who you know like that didn’t cross the mental lexicon at the time so you know I think we’re on Twitter until basically the day it dies right? but but for us, it’s kind of following the audience right? like because you know the policies policy types. You know there’s post. There’s blues sky.
07:49.36
Jon Schwabish
Um, yeah, the.
08:01.17
Bill Gray
Right? There’s all of these and we’re on all of them but like you know, um I don’t know if if people know Daniel Schuman formerly of demand progress now over at Pop Box Foundation you know Daniel Schuman has been doing you know Lion’s share of work to make sure that all of those congressional experts all of those you know staff and members that.
08:03.63
Jon Schwabish
Um, the.
08:20.80
Bill Gray
If you’re moving platform to platform. He’s creating those lists on every platform for you So that if you’re that guy who really likes that cbo expert who does tweet you can find them again and and it’s like the amount of work now to recreate the environments in the nerd circles you and I found ourselves in right? where.
08:26.10
Jon Schwabish
See right.
08:33.54
Jon Schwabish
Um, yeah.
08:37.51
Bill Gray
You know and I it was funny. Um, so one of the products our street did before I got there that still exists. Um, shashhanana and 1 of our judicial experts did a database of like oral arguments right? and things like that that was searchable.
08:47.45
Jon Schwabish
E.
08:52.44
Bill Gray
And then axios puts out a story I think it was earlier this week maybe last week that was all about like how often the various people presenting the supreme court get interrupted and in ah in original Twitter land you could have tweeted at the scholars you could have tweeted at the axios people and I guarantee you shoshhana.
08:59.64
Jon Schwabish
Um, yeah.
09:09.77
Bill Gray
But she did would have found in like 24 hours someone called her and said you want our nerdy database. Why do you want our nerdy database and now it’s like no I’ve got to go find the story find the emails make it sound disarming that I’m actually interested in this really nerdy thing you did and like it’s just another level of like.
09:14.71
Jon Schwabish
Um, yeah.
09:20.97
Jon Schwabish
Right? right.
09:27.41
Jon Schwabish
E.
09:27.53
Bill Gray
Okay, the communications bridges aren’t all built the same way right? because that’s also you know for me I mean I found my jobs because of Twitter I mean I met my wife because of Twitter right? like and and the communication ecosystems where like I’ve worked for journalism I’ve worked on the center left I’ve worked on the center right? because I like the policies.
09:36.30
Jon Schwabish
Um, yeah, yeah.
09:47.18
Bill Gray
And like Twitter let me break those walls down for those people to be like yeah you work in campaign finance you work in you know, harm reduction you two should know each other because you’re both building coalitions and you can learn things and now nobody has time for Twitter because the algorithm algorithm is busted.
09:49.64
Jon Schwabish
Um, right.
10:03.72
Bill Gray
Right? It’s not. It’s not showing you things that you want to see anymore and so it’s like you know, kind of that and it sounds silly that old school I’ve got to go through my literally my virtual rolodex or if you’re us probably a stack of business cards to be like all right who haven’t I talked to in six months but I don’t see him on Twitter anymore.
10:04.34
Jon Schwabish
Um, yeah.
10:13.16
Jon Schwabish
He Yeah yeah.
10:19.62
Bill Gray
Right? Like and so yeah I I am so sad that it is basically dying and I I count myself lucky that I I only get harassment when basically a member of congress tweets something that includes me and everyone doesn’t like that member for that moment. Um, you know, but like Linkedin like.
10:31.30
Jon Schwabish
Yeah, right right? for that moment. Yeah.
10:38.44
Bill Gray
Not not the same thing and and how many of us you know god bless linkedin for a lot of things. Want to say yes to every single person who friends us on Linkedin um, you know so we’ll keep trying just like I’m sure you will um you know and hopefully with remote work. These virtual platforms will will catch up right to this kind of.
10:42.59
Jon Schwabish
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
10:57.68
Bill Gray
We’re online. We can do this more if if if the technology and the social community catches up and we stop you know, kind of hating the cesspools right? like and and because because for you and me right? and and everyone who’s in you know again like Robert Carro kind of these data visualization communities. You know when I started floor charts.
11:06.21
Jon Schwabish
Um, yeah, yeah.
11:16.92
Bill Gray
There was another charts ah blog called I love charts that was basically just pictures of charts that they loved and they had books they had books off of this deal right? like they used to invite guest people to like post for a week at a time and and it’s just like I’m not going to find that again.
11:19.80
Jon Schwabish
Um, is new. Yeah there. Yeah yeah.
11:33.87
Bill Gray
Right? Like you know wordpress doesn’t have that discoverability mechanism Tumblr has gone through multiple owners. So. It’s like okay, right? and it’s like what’s the next thing right? and I still love tumblr I’m still on it. But like when when I started I hit this really unique moment after the 2012 elections Tumblr was trying to really encourage discoverability and so when you signed up they would have this grid of like 15 blogs based upon your interest that you should immediately follow and as somebody who apparently popped one that was like news politics government and like nerd.
12:02.00
Jon Schwabish
Here.
12:11.21
Bill Gray
I ended up in so many of these cross sections that within like the first year it was like 20000 followers and and I was like I don’t even know what to do with 20000 followers right? when I’m just posting photos of like Chuck Grassley and a debt and deficit dragon but they they liked it.
12:15.15
Jon Schwabish
Yeah, right.
12:27.60
Jon Schwabish
Ah, yeah.
12:29.83
Bill Gray
Right? And like they wanted more and now like if I were starting this from scratch I wouldn’t know where to begin right? because my my view of and I love doing floor charts. It is a passion project for real but like my view is that I am actually doing what the library of congress should be doing right? like.
12:36.53
Jon Schwabish
Um, yeah.
12:44.40
Jon Schwabish
E he.
12:48.15
Bill Gray
You know and we’ll we’ll get into this because we talk is but like archiving the photos that taxpayers pay for sourcing these things right? because you can’t always read the source material right? and it’s like it’s not impossible and and highly resource intensive but like.
12:51.90
Jon Schwabish
Right. Um, yeah.
13:03.70
Bill Gray
So many times the point of the floor speech or the debate is actually the chart or the poster right? and and I love that c-span is the 1 archiving all of them but like not everyone’s going to be me and watch a whole lot of c-span every day right? So yeah, no like I will follow you Jon Whichever platform you choose to go to? um.
13:06.44
Jon Schwabish
The.
13:13.72
Jon Schwabish
Yet? yeah.
13:22.83
Jon Schwabish
I’ ah I’m out I Ah yeah I just be the podcast I mean I Yeah I agree with everything you just said I mean for me personally and I and I’ve I’ve written about this and and other places I mean I’m I’m not adding platforms I’m just subtracting I mean and I think.
13:23.35
Bill Gray
You know, which may just be a podcast right.
13:38.38
Bill Gray
Um.
13:39.46
Jon Schwabish
You know, kind of to your point a little bit I think there’s a generational kind of not gap. But there’s a generational change like I mean I’m sure there’s good database stuff on Tiktok but like I’m not going to do that I just it’s it’s really labor intensive I’ve got a job I’ve got a full time job I’ve got kids I’ve got other hobbies right? like. So you know, maybe maybe blue sky or or I don’t know lot threads but like I don’t know maybe those other ones they’ll be a community but so far I’m with you I haven’t heard of any of the friends that I’ve made all through like in the date of his world through Twitter um, ah you know there’s still. Every once in a while there’d be some little conversation on Twitter to pops up be like hey is anybody here like am I just screaming into the ether like and and and it’s it’s true. It’s just kind of yeah it’s it’s I think it’s sad for a lot of us who were able to stay out of the the muck and the and the terribleness that. That can be on social media and just were able to use it for for for good? Um, but having said all that you you did a very nice lead into into floor charts. So I think first question is do you just sit.
14:40.28
Bill Gray
Be.
14:48.98
Jon Schwabish
In front of your Tv watching c-span 24 hours a day because you said it’s just you which I don’t know I know how many listeners will be. You know how many listeners are like wait what you like it’s like it’s 1 dude just doing this. It’s not like a team or an Ai or something like.
14:53.73
Bill Gray
Um, yeah, yeah, yeah.
15:05.11
Jon Schwabish
So so what is so what is that? what is the process like.
15:07.50
Bill Gray
Ah, yeah, yeah, so first off anybody wants to do this with me for free. You’re more than welcome to come on board right? and I’ve and I’ve said it for years, but it’s also like. Not being a coder not being you know the most tech savvy so to speak right? like yeah someone wants to figure out how to pull screenshots from c-span with ai that accurately codes congressional bio ids and like everything else like come come forward. Um, yeah, no so it’s interesting because.
15:29.40
Jon Schwabish
Um, right.
15:34.42
Bill Gray
You know there’s I categorize floor charts in pre pandemicdemic and then post pandemic right? Pre pandemicic ah floor charts I had I started my job at our street two days before the covid nineteen lockdown um and was very blessed that basically.
15:35.93
Jon Schwabish
Okay.
15:43.70
Jon Schwabish
Are unique.
15:49.32
Bill Gray
When I was at c-span I had a four day work week in like an overnight shift because news happened at night which meant I had three days off to just go be a nerd and like watch a lot of c-span off clock. Um, when I went to a small advocate and and also a journalist morgan between. Right? Like these were not twenty four seven jobs I wasn’t at the director level at the same way so like leave work at work right? like go home. You know with my if my girlfriend now wife was at work right? like had some of those free times. Um, and also you know in that high moment of Twitter staffers were beginning to learn.
16:09.73
Jon Schwabish
Um, yeah.
16:24.33
Bill Gray
If we talk to him or let him know something is coming. It will get to the blog faster right? Or in my case because I was a reporter first I followed every congressional reporter under the sun like Niels Lez Newski is my reporter god that I still think and talk so much about right? and so it was like.
16:26.91
Jon Schwabish
Um, ah right right.
16:43.53
Bill Gray
When you know that these reporters were watching the floor and they were watching c-span when there was a moment like um, ah what’s his name. Um not Ken Conrad we’re going to talk about Ken Conrad later um republican ah republican senator ah cuts up a credit card. i’ not I’m I’m going to have to redo this when I’ll I’ll respeak it hold on. It’s one of the most popular charts on my blog hold on I have this thing pulled up. Oh we’re gonna talk about Ken conra idea I know no nobody thinks about Kent Conrad right like hold on ah senator from Oklahoma Tom Covert all right? So let’s.
17:07.38
Jon Schwabish
I haven’t heard the name Kent Conrad in a long time.
17:22.50
Jon Schwabish
Okay.
17:22.18
Bill Gray
I’m going to restart in that moment you can splice. Um, so um, I was a reporter followed ah almost every congressional white house reporter on social media that I could right in part for my job at C-span but also in part because you know like. These were the guys that like their literal job was being glued to the house and senate movement. So if there were slow times which is how see how floor charts got started. You know these guys were being like hey look at what’s happening on the floor and if I didn’t have seats spin on I could be like okay I can turn it on and like now we’re good. Um and one of those iconic moments was senator Tom coburn.
17:40.84
Jon Schwabish
In here.
17:58.55
Bill Gray
Republican of Oklahoma um, got up on the senate floor and literally tore up a giant visual credit card of the nation’s debt and said I’m done with the credit card and and I say it was iconic because he did it it I was out at dinner and with with my then now wife and girlfriend who was a staffer on the hill at the time.
18:06.56
Jon Schwabish
Um, yeah.
18:14.96
Jon Schwabish
In.
18:17.83
Bill Gray
And I every single version of reaching me my phone rang 50000000 text messages Dms everybody in that day had nothing better to do than to watch a senator be like I’m shredding a credit card and then you know probably not un ironically like.
18:26.96
Jon Schwabish
Come.
18:35.30
Bill Gray
Two weeks later or so Cspan q and a the long form interview program led with that moment for an interview with him right? and then everybody who didn’t watch house instead but really was glued to that primetime programming was like hey let’s remind him it happened again and I was like oh no I know I’m very well aware right? so.
18:41.24
Jon Schwabish
Um e.
18:48.36
Jon Schwabish
Um, yeah, ah.
18:53.66
Bill Gray
You know in some phenomenal ways this ecosystem bubble of like government staff including people like you right? like the private sector nerds or what I call you know the public interest nerds right? like who watch that sort of stuff and are like okay that’s funny and and I have to do this for my job Anyway, I’m going to tweet about it.
19:08.26
Jon Schwabish
He he.
19:11.38
Bill Gray
All kind of started intersecting into this world of like ok congress. Not always fun to watch but in those moments they were starting to realize more and more the internet basically memified a lot of congress right? and and it just all hit that peak right? because the starting of floor charts was it was I think the.
19:22.49
Jon Schwabish
Um, yeah, yeah.
19:31.80
Bill Gray
Ah, the day after not the day the week after the twenty twelve presidential elections um Dick Durbin went on the floor when they were talking about um, regulating 5 hour energy drinks. Um and those kinds of like you know brand new to the market sort of things and he had a 5 hour energy drink and Niels let Newki and Elise Foley at Huffington post Niels is at roll call. Um, we’re tweeting back and forth. Ah, but that this existed and basically we’re asking each other. Why is there? no archive of all of these crazy things and I was at home and was watching Seatspan because I had nothing better to do um and always had it on and was on Twitter.
19:56.32
Jon Schwabish
Um, yeah.
20:06.92
Bill Gray
And I literally just went to Tumblr and created senatechars.tumblr.com popped it up I emailed Howard Mortman our communications director he’s good at the time and was like f why I am doing this I know it’s late at night but do you guys want this right? like does tspan want to take this and his response was like no like it’s your thing go ahead. But in the kindness of his heart and this is where c-span really shines Cspan always likes to support when regular people love to use its work right? like not in just a like hey cool story method but like book Tv and when the bus used to go around. It was this kind of ecosystem of c-span.
20:33.64
Jon Schwabish
Yeah.
20:41.19
Jon Schwabish
Me here.
20:45.23
Bill Gray
And so you know c-span enjoyed the fact that like all of a sudden congressional reporters were like there’s an entire archive based on this So I’m going to go send this guy all the crazy charts. But I’ve been taking screen shots up for my entire life and you know it was like yeah it was funny because in the first month I had.
20:56.37
Jon Schwabish
Ah.
21:02.99
Bill Gray
When the Tumblr following increased I started getting messages being like can you post less on Tumblr because my entire feed is you now and I was like oh wow I didn’t even think about like basically feed dominating these 20000 followers
21:11.50
Jon Schwabish
Ah.
21:14.60
Jon Schwabish
Um, yeah.
21:18.77
Bill Gray
And blessedly you know Tumblr has always had a schedule function kind of queued in right and like all of these things but like you know in in the world of floor charts right? like Twitter didn’t exist. This would not have happened right? like and because I had ah I had and not many people know this prior to floor charts actually had a blog called overheard on c-spaam.
21:21.17
Jon Schwabish
Um, you know.
21:27.75
Jon Schwabish
E here.
21:37.94
Bill Gray
Right? That was just watching all of these archival things right? like Ed Rollins way back in Reagan’s days talking about defunding the department of education in front of a bunch of students right? like or like you know, um, Alfred Khan you know, ah Jimmy Carter’s D-reg guy doing like a final exit interview with C-span.
21:45.78
Jon Schwabish
Yeah.
21:56.72
Bill Gray
And just watching these things and being like this is fascinating but also all these policy conversations are cyclical right? You know I was in my twenty s and being like all this is coming around again right? Um, and and just and just throwing these things up on a blog and being like this is fascinating. We’re like my favorite 1
21:59.69
Jon Schwabish
Yeah, yeah, yeah, right right.
22:13.73
Bill Gray
There’s ah there is old school Batman Hawking treasury bonds um in the c-span library right? and and every once a while I’m like yo does anybody remember that this the government did this right? like or um, ah the the big for people who don’t work in in television right? like.
22:23.17
Jon Schwabish
Um, yeah, right.
22:33.40
Bill Gray
Those big kind of like you always hear about these trade association like big junets in like vegas or other places new tv technology right? like new digital technology these huge things. Um, there used to be on at some of these they would do like game fake game shows with like Tv executives. There’s one where like before Cnn really got.
22:45.38
Jon Schwabish
Is here.
22:51.62
Bill Gray
Like got dominating like where they all were just dunking on Ted Turner right like all the other news executives and you’re just watching Ted Turner pre the Cnn domination just in this moment where you can see him kind of like being like oh I’m going to get back at you all but like I’ll enjoy it and it’s all just there.
22:53.40
Jon Schwabish
E.
23:00.37
Jon Schwabish
Um, yeah.
23:07.26
Jon Schwabish
Yeah, right? yeah.
23:09.90
Bill Gray
Right in this library of Archival video and it’s free right? and and like you know it was just kind of this moment where it was like there were and there were followers on that blog right? and it was fascinating that there were but like at the same time like nowhere near the nexus of like funny image meets.
23:20.29
Jon Schwabish
In here.
23:29.35
Bill Gray
Board reporters meets congressional staff realizing Oh I can and this this has been the the policy communications getting back to the podcast This has been the change congress and staff don’t need earned media anymore right? like you know that that direct to constituent or direct to whatever.
23:41.50
Jon Schwabish
Um, yeah.
23:47.55
Bill Gray
Audience you want to speak to the internet enabled that in a larger fashion social media juiced it and they all realized oh wait right? like I all of a sudden can do something that will probably generate earned media in some fashion if I want it to but like. Yeah, if you’re flipping Tv and all of a sudden you see. Um you know? Chuck Grassley with a giant dragon right? And you’re like why like why is always the first thing and you know and and you will remember as I do like Jon Stewart used to feed off this stuff.
24:10.65
Jon Schwabish
Yeah, right? yeah.
24:18.53
Jon Schwabish
Oh yeah.
24:21.51
Bill Gray
Right? Like Rachel Maddow featured featured this once I got this going she featured all of these things right? like television feeds off television sometimes and so it just that you know and I will I will always give props to like Adam Sharpe and the og dc Twitter people for getting congress engaged on Twitter and getting government engaged on Twitter um.
24:23.62
Jon Schwabish
Um, yeah.
24:41.30
Bill Gray
But you know the supercharging of like you can’t not every story is going to earn some media right? like mixed with younger people in congress controlling the levers of social media right? like you know, ah the the single most Well the the most viral moment to me that’s positive and then there’s.
24:50.97
Jon Schwabish
Um, yeah.
24:59.51
Bill Gray
Funny moment which was the snowball on the senate floor. Um, right exactly but you know it was I think last year um Sean castten right member of congress his digital director digital director term communications director made Hot Fork Summer go viral
24:59.67
Jon Schwabish
Yes, remember that one? yep.
25:17.48
Bill Gray
Um, and and went and got earned media in every place you would imagine from like you know, basically like teen vogue to all the Tv programs because she had Sean casting go up and do a little freestyle musicing to the notion of like Ferc this federal agency helping solve climate change. And it’s this you know like 20 plus year old staffer who just realized I need this to be fun I need to make policy communications break through but in a way that was also unlike someone like me who is Twitter first was like Tiktok and visual and video first.
25:40.81
Jon Schwabish
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
25:55.24
Jon Schwabish
Um, yeah.
25:56.52
Bill Gray
Right? And and that kind of like evolution because all of a sudden it went from her. Yeah and I’ve and I’ve met Amelia Amelia no longer works for Sean Kaston but we got coffee and I was just like I have to give you huge props as a policy communicator because you leveraged like. Trade publication to national publication to television an entire dialogue for for weeks about hot ferk summer right? You know and like never would have imagined.
26:16.84
Jon Schwabish
Um, yeah.
26:25.99
Jon Schwabish
Ah, will.
26:27.88
Jon Schwabish
Hold on sorry I can’t I think I muted you maybe by accident. Can you unmute yourself that I do it I did sorry I was trying to clear my throat and I clicked the one button so it was right at the end it. It was fine.
26:39.70
Bill Gray
I Think you did I’m back? No, it’s fine. Do you know when.
26:47.81
Jon Schwabish
Um, but I’ll just I’ll put the cut for this part? Um, yeah, um, no, it’s fine. It’s mine I was just trying to clear my throat for my next question. Um, oh I remember else to say.
26:50.75
Bill Gray
Um, all good and I know I’m talking a lot. So if you want me to give short rants as I’m happy to.
27:03.99
Jon Schwabish
So it is interesting the way the way you you describe that sort of growth because it reminds me of of Snl soundary live like when like Andy Sandberg sort of like figured out that like.
27:13.16
Bill Gray
Um.
27:16.70
Jon Schwabish
Youtube was going to be the thing and started making like these smaller viral I mean they went viral all of a sudden and it’s just interesting how it took so long I guess for I guess members of congress to realize they had this. They could do the same thing right? like the same they’re the same power to build these visual. I don’t want to say products. That’s not the right word but these these visual moments right? where they could actually do a better job of communicating their data. Do you? Um yeah, but.
27:43.21
Bill Gray
Well and well and you you know, just briefly like there is a house printing office right? like there’s a government printing office right? But there’s there is like house creative services and you know, no one I mean c-span actually has video from inside back then I think I want to say late 80 s early ninety s.
27:49.55
Jon Schwabish
Um, yeah.
28:00.65
Bill Gray
Um, nowadays No, you can’t get a camera inside of that sort of thing but like there there is this office that that members can say like I need this printed I need this designed right? or some of them can go to Fedex Kinko’s or the back of no district but like this this power does exist and it’s actually funny because and I’m I’m going to pull it up in real time.
28:01.10
Jon Schwabish
Um, yeah.
28:19.10
Bill Gray
Um, here if I can find it real fast like the I actually had somebody on Twitter again pointing to this Um, ah, pointing to this moment right? like where he um g chatted me or he tweeted at me and this is back in 162 um that he was reading a book. Ah, by David Mccullough and he was like hey did you know they had charts way back when I was like okay define way back when right because I’ve been watching a whole lot of c-span um and and he was like um, no like and and I’m going to like preview the like read a bit of the passage right? and it’s and I and I forget which what color book it is I think it’s.
28:42.48
Jon Schwabish
The right.
28:56.73
Jon Schwabish
In.
28:58.13
Bill Gray
Between the seas. Um and he and it’s this story right? about like senator ah Marcus Alonzo Hannah um delivering a speech right? and and the description of the chamber that is given is the chamber was nearly full and all about were hung enormous maps and plans.
29:14.81
Jon Schwabish
E.
29:17.84
Bill Gray
1 map of central America and the caribbean islands reached from the gallery railing to the floor showed the location of every volcano active or extinct right? and it’s just this notion of like pre camera like pre tv they were doing this right? like they were using visual aids to drive the point home.
29:22.45
Jon Schwabish
Um, he.
29:30.21
Jon Schwabish
Um, yeah, yeah.
29:37.15
Bill Gray
And and what basically happened thanks to Cpan’s cameras is all of a sudden. The lights went on and it it the audience just exploded outward right? like and so yeah like I am I I have never done the math and I will not do the math. But if you are a nerd one do the math I’ll let you um, like charts that.
29:46.00
Jon Schwabish
Um, yeah.
29:57.22
Bill Gray
Self-describing floor floor charts is basically charts props and posters right? because it really does usual. Those are the easiest categories charts are minimal right? like they used to be more like we we Kent Conrad you and I you and I mentioned right? like can there is a chart ah that by senator Chris Coons
30:04.00
Jon Schwabish
Me.
30:15.60
Bill Gray
Of Kent Conrad’s rise right? when powerpoint became a thing and then the exponential increase of charts by Kent Conrad right like I think I counted 1 time he brought like 30 to the floor at once right and I was just like oh you’re the budget guy like but those were.
30:18.90
Jon Schwabish
Um, yeah.
30:31.80
Jon Schwabish
Yeah.
30:33.37
Bill Gray
Literally charts right? like line graphs and all of that sort of stuff and now like the last most popular thing I posted on the blog right? was like Ted Cruz with a photo of like China spying on you from a computer right? like you know, like um, you know, memes and photographs right? kind of took over and even I mean.
30:43.15
Jon Schwabish
Yeah, yeah.
30:53.34
Bill Gray
Props are less but those who who are c-span junkies and if you’re not, you’ll you’ll Google this there was a time I forget which member it was came to the floor and literally built a fake southern border wall right? and like from home depot parts and talked about like is there a way we can electrify it right? and I was like. You literally just built a wall on the floor from home depot parts right? like.
31:14.94
Jon Schwabish
There’s a there’s definitely a joke to be made here about how many miles of the Southern border of the wall has actually been built there but I’m gonna I’m gonna leave that alone. Yeah yeah.
31:20.55
Bill Gray
Right? But like it but it was one of those things where it’s like yes like it is less charts and data at right and more now photograph meme and and occasionally prop right? I I think it was Debbie Watsman Schultz once brought um like a.
31:27.42
Jon Schwabish
Um, yeah E he.
31:36.92
Bill Gray
Bobblehead elephant to like showcase like the yes vote right? Just back and forth right? But like you know and for those who don’t know and and ask neils lez newki right? like niils is is the Dean of these sorts of things. There are rules about what you can bring to the floor what you can’t bring to the floor right? and you know there? um.
31:38.10
Jon Schwabish
Yeah, right.
31:47.48
Jon Schwabish
You see.
31:54.46
Bill Gray
There was there has been only 1 time in my life. Ah, and I’m I’m trying to remember the member where I got I got a phone call I was after I had left Cspan and they said hey our our prop has been blocked from coming to the floor would you like would you like us to come talk about it and I was like.
32:07.12
Jon Schwabish
Um, oh.
32:12.54
Bill Gray
Yeah I mean I’ll I’ll come to your office. It’s after hours. It’s fine. Um, and and if I remember the member’s name. Every single person will remember who this guy is because it’s the member who said the republican plan for health care was for you to die quickly. Um, and the prop that got blocked was for those who were who were in Dc. There was a New York Newspaper cover of of I think it was um Abraham Lincoln covered an excrement right? and it was this Jon Boehner negative speaker moment and the parliamentarian had said that that visual image demeans the body right? and that was one of my first entrees to oh.
32:37.42
Jon Schwabish
E.
32:42.79
Jon Schwabish
E.
32:49.85
Bill Gray
This is an interesting moment that like somebody can’t actually stop these things from coming to the floor and said Niels knows the rules better than I do because I no longer am that nerdy of the congressional person but like.
32:51.89
Jon Schwabish
Right.
33:02.47
Bill Gray
I have I have not heard of many more being blocked right? and and there are plenty of things that we all see make it to the house and senate floor where we’re just like you know that’s basically a Twitter image or a powerpoint meme. That’s just been shoved onto a poster right? Um, and and but it’s like that. That’s now the purpose.
33:07.89
Jon Schwabish
Um, yeah.
33:12.87
Jon Schwabish
Right.
33:20.10
Bill Gray
Right? Like the you know I I I am a chart nerd I am a data is nerd right? I am the guy that probably like you if somebody uses one I’m looking at where the source is to be like where’d you get the data can I go back and find the actual report. Um right and like I I’m the one who’s going to go to basically shit posted a member.
33:27.90
Jon Schwabish
No yeah.
33:39.30
Bill Gray
When you’re in the back of the Chamber you built a really shiny chart and the the light is reflective so I can’t see it right? like because for those who don’t know like the the lights in house and senate cameras they’re controlled by congress right? like they’re not controlled by private sector.
33:41.61
Jon Schwabish
Um, yeah I.
33:50.98
Jon Schwabish
Um, yeah.
33:54.11
Bill Gray
So they can and they have they have hundreds of camera angles. They can choose from and I’m like you can move that light I know you can move that light is there a guy I can tweet at to move that light in real time right? And so like I like it when they use actual charts and data because then I can see.
33:56.63
Jon Schwabish
Um, right? yeah right right.
34:12.68
Bill Gray
What’s your argument and there are only a few members and senator Joni Ernst is 1 of them who and her staff are exceptionally good at like saying to me in like 2 hours probably going to be on the floor right? and I’m like great. Thank you for that right? like because even if I can’t appear appear in real time I can I can flag it right? um.
34:20.55
Jon Schwabish
Me.
34:26.80
Jon Schwabish
You grab it later. Yeah.
34:30.58
Bill Gray
But some of these members and Joni Unsof is does this every once in a while they’ll post the moment obviously to the constituent newsletter right? or the website but they’ll also frequently include the source right? If they’re actually citing stats and figures right? Even if it’s a photo they’ll include sourcing because.
34:38.37
Jon Schwabish
E.
34:47.87
Bill Gray
Congress is inherently political right? right? That is the job but like for those of us who work in policy communications. We just want to know right? like because 1 you could be a subject area. We have expertise in that can solve the problem or 2 like your data may actually be wrong which does happen sometimes like misprints happen.
34:49.47
Jon Schwabish
Um, yeah.
35:05.42
Jon Schwabish
Chirp.
35:07.53
Bill Gray
Right? Like you know there have been times where they’ve had the chart upside down right? like and you know I’ll share with you so you can share with your readers or your listeners like there’s a very famous peak oil chart that has like 17 different fricking axes to it that went onto the floor and I use it as an example of like not only bad visual design but I hope.
35:26.85
Jon Schwabish
Yeah, right right.
35:26.92
Bill Gray
Purpose of that chart was to showcase. We don’t know what we’re doing right? like um, but like I wanted to know when I saw that I was like what member why and who right like and because and you know again you you worked at you know at Cbo like you want to put those those connections together.
35:32.98
Jon Schwabish
Um, yeah.
35:40.17
Jon Schwabish
Trick and.
35:43.44
Bill Gray
Right? Like if even if you’re just a data is nerd. You want to know much less a policy nerd and a communications nerd.
35:45.96
Jon Schwabish
Right? right? I mean really it is interesting that that there is someone who reviews or looks I mean I’m I’m surprised with some of the things like just Marjorie Taylor Green bringing on naked pictures of Hunter Biden like made it past some.
35:59.72
Bill Gray
Um.
36:03.82
Jon Schwabish
Filter I Guess um oh and house in this and rule they are right.
36:03.86
Bill Gray
Well and again I and I think there’s differences between Committee rule and like house and senate floor probably right like because because committees I think committees are institutions unto themselves but it is still a moment where if there aren’t rules I would stand back and be like well Why not.
36:19.97
Jon Schwabish
Um, yeah, yeah.
36:20.39
Bill Gray
Right? And if the rules are inherently political such as the chair gets to decide one I would like to know that just in in almost any story that is written about those sorts of of props and images right? like because there are funnier moments I think there was one where like. Fred Upton and another member were had made a bet and were passing like a bottle of alcohol back and forth right? because they lost a bet like a funny moment but there was also you know moments where I think it was I want to say it was Greg Walden brought in like a jar of water that had been contaminated right? and it’s like okay.
36:38.53
Jon Schwabish
Right.
36:51.54
Jon Schwabish
Yeah, right.
36:52.75
Bill Gray
Are there medical rules around bringing in a jar water. It’s good devate like those little things where it’s like journalism can only go so deep. We know that right? like inches inches matter in in in regular print. But for those of us you know I have met so many people in dcboth Twitter and offline who will say like. Engaging with floor charts and the notion of like why was that made them want to be more engaged and some of them to go work inside of congress right? and I’m like I’m so happy for that because the original point of c-span was to kind of demystify right? Some of these things and for me.
37:16.30
Jon Schwabish
Um, yeah.
37:23.77
Jon Schwabish
Yeah.
37:28.82
Bill Gray
Like that was the point of floor charts was to be like this is yours you pay for this right? like if you if you pay attention like there’s a responsiveness mechanism that can be had right? and now it feels like there’s almost no way right to like build that relationship again between like.
37:30.85
Jon Schwabish
Yeah, right.
37:46.94
Bill Gray
Does the staffer want to engage on Twitter does the staffer want the email engagement right? because I’ve I’ve tried um and I understand why most staffers aren’t interested right? But like when substat came out and I was like all right, let’s pop a flow chart substack and talk about how you go from idea to chart right? like and like you know, most staffers.
37:59.57
Jon Schwabish
He.
38:06.38
Bill Gray
You can only talk so much about the business of the office right? like and like the create and the creative process some of them have much more freedom right? and some of them by the time you get to talking about that. The narrative has shifted negative on the policy issue right? and so it’s like.
38:06.70
Jon Schwabish
You know? Yeah, yeah, sure.
38:18.19
Jon Schwabish
Yeah, yeah.
38:22.80
Bill Gray
You know once once you’re back to the only way you interact with government is by the by the pipelines they that are they kind of decide right? phone call to your member office email to your member office and not all these staffers are online some of them really just want to talk to people like some of them don’t know. Maybe they shouldn’t talk to people because like.
38:30.54
Jon Schwabish
Um, right.
38:37.76
Jon Schwabish
Um, niha.
38:41.65
Jon Schwabish
Um, yeah.
38:42.36
Bill Gray
All of us will tweet at them all the time. Um, like there there was a couple of years there um where ah, there’s a guy named Yuri Beckelman I think you know Yuri um, maybe not yuri worked in congressman Mark Decano’s office. He worked for the modernization committee um Yuri actually.
38:49.81
Jon Schwabish
So.
39:01.39
Bill Gray
He he brought um international like um chart day to congress um did an entire day again. Robert Cara who I keep mentioning over and over was there and like his his big idea for floor charts which I’m thankful for that he did it. We reprinted like the.
39:06.30
Jon Schwabish
Ah.
39:17.83
Bill Gray
50 most popular crazy posters and built an art gallery inside of 1 of the house office buildings and was just and we were just like come hang out guys right? And all these staffers were like oh your floor charts and I was like yes this is the purpose you literally tweeted all of these memes because you want me to talk to you right? and now like.
39:20.39
Jon Schwabish
Now. Nice yeah. Yeah, right? Yes, right.
39:37.40
Bill Gray
Yeah I know how to contact congress because I work in Dc right? But like if you know and I think the the most famous charts for a very long time. Um, and and there’s a few members that do it like like clockwork we’re always the like high school team wins.
39:50.81
Jon Schwabish
You heat men right? right.
39:53.54
Bill Gray
Right? Or like so and so gets congressional life. You know medal or something and and it’s like those are wonderful, Really like
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