Stefanie Posavec is a designer, artist, and author whose practice focuses on finding new, experimental approaches to communicating data and information. This work has been exhibited internationally at major galleries including the V&A, the Design Museum, Somerset House, and the Wellcome Collection (London), the Centre Pompidou (Paris), and MoMA (New York). Her work is also in the permanent collection of MoMA. Besides her new book with Miriam, she has also co-authored two books that emphasise a...
Stefanie Posavec is a designer, artist, and author whose practice focuses on finding new, experimental approaches to communicating data and information. This work has been exhibited internationally at major galleries including the V&A, the Design Museum, Somerset House, and the Wellcome Collection (London), the Centre Pompidou (Paris), and MoMA (New York). Her work is also in the permanent collection of MoMA. Besides her new book with Miriam, she has also co-authored two books that emphasise a more personal approach to data: Dear Data and the journal Observe, Collect, Draw!
Sonja Kuijpers runs STUDIO TERP, her one-woman data illustration studio based in Eindhoven, Netherlands. She designs (data-)visualisations for a diversity of clients such as Scientific American, Philips, as well as small institutions, companies, and publishers. Recently the Climate Book by Greta Thunberg was published, for which Sonja (re-)designed the graphs.
Experimenting with shapes and styles, she also designs her own independent dataviz and data art projects. She received an Information is Beautiful Gold Award in 2019 for her personal project ‘A View on despair’. Creating data visualisation, to Sonja, is trying to locate herself in the data, making sense of numbers with a human approach, showing insights as well as the aesthetics of information and data.
Episode Notes
Stefanie | Web | Twitter
Sonja | Web | Twitter | IIB Award, A View on Despair
Warming Stripes
I am a book. I am a portal to the universe. by Stefanie Posavec and Miriam Quick
The Climate Book, by Greta Thurnberg | Amazon US | Amazon UK
Related Episodes
Episode #187: Stefanie Posavec & Miriam Quick
Episode #2: Dear Data
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PolicyViz Podcast Episode #232: Stefanie Posavec and Sonja Kuijpers.
Welcome back to the PolicyViz podcast. I am your host, Jon Schwabish. I hope the New Year is off to a good start for you and your family and your friends and your work. I am really excited for the beginning of the New Year, really great podcast episode a couple of weeks ago, if you didn’t check it out, you really should with Vidya Setlur and Bridget Cogley on their new book Functional Aesthetics. I’ve got some great guests coming up in the next few weeks, really excited about those. I’ve got a new newsletter that’s over on Substack now, because review, well, have shut down. I’ve been working on a variety of different longer blog posts, some bigger think pieces, I’m learning more about Tableau, and I just took an R course, I’m really trying to level up my skills this year, it’s an ongoing quest to just be better at the work that we do.
When it comes to this week’s episode of the podcast, really excited for my guests. I have two guests this week, Stefanie Posavec, who you may know from the Dear Data project and has appeared on the podcast in the past; and Sonja Kuijpers, who has her own freelance studio in Europe; they teamed up to create and design Greta Thunberg’s new book on climate change. And when I saw that come out, and their involvement in the project, I was like, I’ve got to have them on the show, I’ve got to learn more about it, how did it all work, how did it all come together, what were all the challenges. And you’re going to hear some interesting stories, in particular, where you should get the book or you should buy it in the UK, or in the US, so make sure you listen to that part, because it is actually kind of important. And it’s just a really fascinating story about how all this came together, and what it takes to create a book like this with so many different graphs about a really important topic of our time, perhaps the most important topic of our time. So without a delay, here is this week’s episode, my conversation with Stefanie and Sonja.
Jon Schwabish: Hey Stefanie and Sonja, welcome to the show. How are you both? Good to see you.
Stefanie Posavec: Good.
Sonja Kuijpers: Fine, yeah.
JS: Good to see you. Sonja, how are you?
SP: Nice to see you as well.
SK: Yeah.
JS: Haven’t seen you guys, I haven’t seen – well, Sonja, I haven’t seen you in what, should we say, like, four-five years?
SK: Yeah, about that.
JS: Or 10 years in COVID time.
SK: Just about 10, yeah, the COVID, yes, in between we’ll say 10, yeah.
JS: Yeah.
SK: It was five, I guess, yeah.
JS: Yeah, it was Information is Beautiful Awards in London where I think Stefanie you and I had done a workshop that week, and I was like, hanging out for a while, did the IAB awards, and yeah, that was a good time.
SK: Yeah, I met your mother.
SP: Yeah.
JS: That’s right, you met my mom there, yeah. My mom has been a frequent topic of conversation on the show recently, I don’t know why. So hopefully, she’ll like this too.
SK: A very lovely person, yeah.
JS: Well, thanks. So just for folks who are wondering, who are listening, like, what is going on, my mom does like to travel with me, back in the pre-COVID days. So London, she also joined me in Pamplona for [inaudible 00:04:29] so yeah, Miami a couple times, yeah, she’s a good traveler. So mom, if you’re listening, you’re fun to travel with. Okay, so let’s get back on track. So you both have this amazing new project out with Greta Thunberg on climate change, the designers of the book, and so, I thought we could just talk about it for a bit. So maybe we can start with this, just so folks kind of know who you are, just like little quick introduction, and then, we could talk about the project. So maybe, Sonja, do you want to start and give folks a little background?
SK: Yeah, I’m Sonja Kuijpers. People know me probably better as STUDIO TERP, that’s my studio. I work as a one woman company, and I DataViz, data art projects, mainly DataViz for clients and more data art projects are my own, of own personal interest. And yeah, like you said, we met in London, that’s where I received an award for my View On Despair project, which was a data visualization on suicide numbers. So that’s the sort of stuff that I create on personal basis. And I like to do more of projects that have an extra twist, yeah, experiment with shapes and colors, yeah.
JS: Yeah. And Stefanie and I go way back, of course.
SP: Yes, definitely.
JS: Definitely.
SP: But, I guess, I should say…
JS: I mean, say a little bit, yeah, just a little bit. I mean, yeah, maybe, because you’ve been on the show a few times, but maybe tell folks what you’ve been doing in the last year or so. You have some cool projects going on too.
SP: Yeah. So, I guess, I say, I’m a designer artist and author, I work with data, mainly experimental data design projects, and then I also teach workshops as well. So some of the stuff that I’ve been doing over the past year or so includes, you know, I do a lot of art residencies, like, it could mean drawing how data and samples come from a study participants all the way through to the data researchers who end up using that data to study medical and health outcomes, like, an art residency I did with a research group People Like You, or it could be making a participatory artwork for the Wellcome Collection from visitors’ perceptions of happiness and what makes them happy, to publishing a book with Miriam Quick, I Am a Book. I Am a Portal to the Universe, which we’ve definitely talked about, and which is a book that uses itself as a measure to kind of show the wonder of the world to you. So like every part of the book, from its volume, its weight, its page thickness, and more communicate data about our world. And yeah, I guess, that’s it. So yeah, I’m doing a lot of, using data in more participatory, playful, friendly, accessible ways to connect people together, and kind of to have them think about themselves and their lives and their place in their wider communities.
JS: Right. And so, I could see, just, I mean, knowing your work, but also just from the way you both describe your work, I can see how you both naturally could work well together, because you both work in that experimental, different kinds of shapes, not necessarily like your standard like, not that there’s anything wrong with it, but like the dashboarding world, you’re both trying different forms and different things. So I can see why this could be a pretty amazing partnership. So I’m curious about the book. I don’t have it yet. It hasn’t made its way across the pond, so I’m still waiting. So I thought we could start with how did it come about, and then, what was the work like? So Stefanie, maybe you want to start, and then, we could talk about how all the piece together?
SP: Yeah, I’ll give some background on the project. So occasionally, I will design a book for Penguin, it has to be a very special book, because in my job – previous to working in DataViz, I was a book cover and book designer. So I was asked maybe six or seven months before the project truly began, if I would like to design a book for Greta Thunberg, and so I said, yes, and I had to keep it a secret. But that was working under the assumption that I would do the text and the charts, because they know this is my realm. But then, when it came to it, it’s for her book, The Climate Book, which has, I think, over 100 of the top climate contributors alongside Greta, so it’s like a really big logistically complex book with lots of different people involved, and lots of charts, and a very, very quick turnaround.
And so, it was very obvious that that was not a one person job, it needed two people, and so, that’s when I asked Sonja to see if she would join the project and oversee the charts in the book, and I will hand it over to her.
JS: So how did that work, so Sonja, you get this call, did you just get a mass of data and graph like drafts, and you just went to work, like, what was the process of pulling all that together? Because it sounds like it’s across multiple authors, so, like, how does – yeah, maybe just talk about your process?
SK: Yeah, well, first, I want to share that Stefanie reached out, and I had to do a dance in my living room because, you know, Stefanie asking me to join her in this marvelous journey. And so, that was the first thing that got me very excited about taking this job, because – I’m going to say it again, Stefanie, you’re one of my heroes in DataViz. So yeah, that was…
SP: That’s very nice of you.
SK: Yeah.
SP: With this project, you were totally. You are more of a hero to me, I promise you. This is a very, very challenging…
SK: We are each other’s heroes now. We don’t need [inaudible 00:11:13]
JS: Yeah.
SK: No, but I didn’t exactly know what was coming my way at the beginning. It was just, yeah, there’s this book, and I was told it was by Greta, so I was also like, okay, wow, Greta. But the actual amount and size wasn’t that clear yet at that point. But I think the real thing hit me when we had this Excel file with all the graphs that we would have to incorporate. So yeah, we had this big file with the older graphs mentioned, picture of the JPEG or whatever image they provided, and they already had some other team work on Illustrator files of that JPEGs. So that’s when I realized, okay, I have to really pull harder on my graphs’ knowledge here.
JS: So I’m guessing that most of the authors, again, I don’t have the book yet, but I’m guessing most of the authors are scientists, climate scientists, maybe some advocates, so I’m guessing the data is pretty dense; the graphs, based on at least the economics field, the graphs aren’t great – so were you primarily trying to make them look better, or were you reimagining some of them? I’m guessing, like, hey, here’s a line chart, but could you make something different sort of more engaging, like, where were you thinking as you started going through it?
SK: That would have been great, but the time, it didn’t allow to really broaden anything. I think there was some small changes, considering which direction a bar would go, would it be vertical or horizontal, things like that, but not really in shapes or other ways of handling the graph, because there just wasn’t enough time to actually – we didn’t have the data available also, so there were just the pictures and the underlying Illustrator files.
JS: And so, then, how does the design part of this work, because there’s the design of the graphs, and the design of the book, so how did you two work together to do both of those pieces?
SK: Yeah, Stefanie is the lead hero, so yeah.
SP: Sure. Actually, I just want to interject one little thing, just to give you a sense of what Sonja was dealing with.
JS: Yeah.
SP: So it was like a 100, I mean, not everyone had a chart, but it’s like a 100 contributors who are pulling charts from everywhere. So it could have been using some scientific software or charts that they really wanted to use that were pulled from, I don’t know like the Washington Post…
JS: Some random source, right.
SP: Or some random source or from, like, the IPCC report, or it was just a JPEG, or it was like from PowerPoint, there’s all sorts of stuff, all like JPEGs, often not editable, and that’s why they all had to go – when Sonja was talking about Illustrator files – they all had to go and be artwork and redrawn and made editable. So like they started from like, not, like, really, really rough quality stuff, and all sorts of places, all sorts of charts, then that, like, those Illustrator files is what Sonja had to work with. So it was like a huge – it was a huge old mess. She’s [inaudible 00:14:57].
JS: Yeah, from an author’s perspective, I can imagine it being amazing, because you could just be like, I want a map, okay, I’ll take a screenshot of this thing from the New York Times, I’ll take this bar chart from the Journal of blah, blah, blah, and I’ll take this map from over here, and just send it to you two to let you go off, like, I can imagine for the author, it’s terrific, but from your perspective, that’s a huge undertaking.
SP: Yeah. So just to, I mean, I guess, you used the publishing before the listener, like, there was an art director, and then, there was the editor, there was also a team in the US that I think was overseeing it as well, it was like a joint publication in some capacity. And then, I think also you’ve got an image rights team that is checking, I guess, all the rights for everything is okay. I think that also included some of the charts that some people wanted to use from various newspapers. I mean, there was also an editorial assistant who was doing a lot of the heavy lifting, like, liaising with all of the different authors, that was I think, Sonja’s [inaudible 00:16:03] kind of like liaison with all those, like a hundred different people. So it was a super complicated thing to figure out, and then, manage all these charts.
But just to give you a sense of the way that worked with the book design, so I came up with a book design, and it’s never like, oh, here’s a design, let’s go with it. It’s probably like constant, constant, constant iterations, and back and forth, and back and forth, which then was sent to Greta, and, I guess, her team, and then they approve it. We get all the text and the content, and then, we start to drop it in design from there. But what I had, like, there’s a blue that goes through the book, a pantone blue, and some other colors, so I had to choose these overarching colors to be harmonious with this blue pantone ink that feeds through the book.
And then, also the typography, so I had to give that to Sonja, as well as guidelines for how she should set up the chart to fit into my layout grid to ensure that everything would align and be harmonious with the rest of the text. So I was just sending Sonja really annoying, but I hope, useful, being like, oh, it needs – you’ve got two sizes of box, you can fit in this – it has to be this size or this size, and things had to be fit into very, very precise sizes. Also to ensure that everything would fit in the 464-page book. So it’s like a precision process. Also, the page size changed.
JS: Oh no!
SP: And I don’t know, there were a lot of changes.
JS: Wow.
SK: Yeah. Can I jump in here because you were saying annoying, but, to me, it was very helpful, because I had all these graphs, and this was a very helpful way of working, because I had this framework that was there, and I didn’t have to think of all other stuff also. So it wasn’t – it really wasn’t the annoying, it was the opposite, yeah.
JS: But were there times, or were there examples, or are there examples of graphs where you’re in this box, and you want to fit something in, either an annotation or another data element, and you just couldn’t, or, can you give us an example of, like, where the size or the layout you had to do something different because of the actual, like, how it’s going to fit on the page?
SK: I think there was one map that we rotated. Remember Stefanie, it was the legend wouldn’t fit in if we – or the map itself wasn’t even clear if we put it in this box size. So I think we rotated the map on a page.
SP: But you could still read it.
SK: Yeah.
SP: You would still read it normally, but then the map was…
SK: Yeah.
SP: Because I think it was from – because it was the North Pole, so it didn’t matter which way it was.
JS: That’s so funny, yeah, it doesn’t matter, right, because it’s the North Pole, right.
SP: Yeah, that’s the only time that you can really do that, yeah.
JS: So then, when it comes to – I’m interested on the typography and the text, in particular, because I’m guessing that a lot of the graphs were pretty scientific, like, a lot of climate change journals. So how, and, I guess, this is first a question for Sonja, how did you think about making the text readable for non-scientists, and were you responsible for changing some of the words, and how did you think about annotating things, so normal readers could read, understand it?
SK: I think it was mainly the abbreviations that were used that I changed here and there, because, we all know carbon, carbon symbols and things like that, but there were some that contains abbreviations and things. I had to look up myself, and I’m thinking, if I have to look it up, imagine what other people have to look it up. So yeah, these were things that are checks and double checks, and I think there were a lot that text that guided the axis. I think there were a lot that were changed by me, because I thought, why use an abbreviation when you can write it out.
JS: Right. So it sounds like there was, I mean, sounds like there’s a big team around this whole project, but did you, either of you have conversations with the different authors, and like get into the weeds of things, or was it always this kind of level of separation, and was that good or bad?
SK: Yeah.
SP: Sonja you were sometimes – you had not direct contact, but you were able to query.
SK: No, so I had – there was Amandeep at Penguin who checked in with all the scientists, I guess. So if I had a question, I would write it down saying in this and this graph, what does this mean. Or, for instance, one had an axis which had years on it, jumping every 20 years, but then there was one jumping, yeah, a 100 years, and then, 20, 20, 20. I was like, yeah, but you can’t do that, you have to actually show, yeah, we all know that, we’ve all been there. So these were questions that I asked, can I change this, or this is how I look at this, what about if I add this or take away this.
JS: Right. So now you both do client work, and so, I’m curious, when you’re doing client work, let’s go away from the book for a second, when you’re doing client work in a similar sort of situation where you have, I don’t know, your project officer or the person at the client who you’re talking to, but they are pulling material from other folks at their companies, do you like to talk to the individual analysts or the individual people, like, so, I guess I’m asking like, is this buffer person, like, do you prefer to have someone like that, or do you prefer to actually talk to the people who are actually knee deep in the data or neck deep in the data, I guess, probably?
SK: I’ll start. Yeah, of course, I would like to have a conversation with the ones that collect the data or, yeah, they know what’s in there, and what they want to communicate, and I can check if it’s there, and I can double check with them. If there were mistakes, because sometimes there are mistakes in there, an outlier doesn’t have to be an outlier, it can be a typo. Right? So yeah, that’s what I like to do with my clients, but this was a, yeah, there was a whole different situation. And, I guess, in this particular job, it was better to have this person in between because I think they would have been a project of two years or, yeah.
JS: Yeah.
SP: I would say that they should have had another person, like, I think the project would have done with one extra person to manage the hundred people, like, because, I mean, it was incredibly complex. And Sonja’s main contact, Amandeep was incredible, but it was such a huge project, because there were image rights, there were the charts, there were texts corrections, editor corrections, subeditor corrections for hundred different people including Greta and her team, like, it was 464 pages, so it was like this huge, huge book.
JS: Right. Yeah, I guess, just the management of this kind of project seems pretty amazing. So let me ask, you’ve both done work that clearly has meaning for you as either professionally or personally. And I’m curious when you have a project like this, which potentially is has such a big impact, it is clearly so important to our lives and our kids’ lives and the future of the planet, does it have extra meaning for you when you’re working through it, like, I know there’s always drudgery in every project, but do you feel or when you’re able to take a step back for a second, do you feel like this is the kind of thing that you are excited to be in the field for? I guess, maybe, Sonja, you can start, I don’t know.
SK: Yeah, well, I try to stay away from the subject matter, because, yeah, it’s gloomy, and it’s doom. And so, I just focused really hard on the job just to make it insightful, and pretty as well, because that’s always my goal. But yeah, of course, as a subject itself, climate is really a thing, and as you mentioned, for my kids, I’m really proud that I had this opportunity to work on such an important book. And yeah, how Greta has spoken before on it, I think is truly amazing how these people continue fighting. And I am not one of these persons myself, but I am truly honored if I can help those people out by my work, yeah.
JS: Stefanie, what about you? I mean, you’ve done work with kids, and you’ve done all these different types of projects, but when you have a project like this, does it mean something extra?
SP: Yeah, I mean, I think there’s some – I think the thing that’s really nice about a project like this is that, you know, I think as a designer, it’s always nice to do a project that has some sort of longevity and utility to it, like, I mean, that’s the beautiful thing about a book, like a really lovely book will stick around for decades, people will keep it on their shelves. And that’s so different from, or, like, be considered like this canonic sort of piece of literature that changes things. So to be part of that, since paper lasts a lot longer than stuff on the internet, like, I think that is useful, but as a reference I think it’s a really nice design project. I mean, that’s why I love publishing, in general, even if it is a [inaudible 00:27:29].
JS: Yeah. Okay, so I’m going to ask this question, I think I already know the answer, but I’m guessing people want to know whether you got to actually meet or talk to Greta, or just her team – that’s for people who are listening, Stefanie and Sonja are both shaking their heads with sad faces that they didn’t actually get to.
SP: Yeah.
SK: Yeah, maybe just do a shout out to her, because, I would really love to have an autograph in my book.
JS: Right, yeah, absolutely.
SP: Yeah, it was all through the editor. So yeah, there was a little bit of a buffer, and also, I’m pausing, I mean, because I think one of her main advisors or an advisor is also her father. So I think they may work on it, like, yeah, like, he’s a strong part of her team. I think I’m allowed to say that. That’s probably…
JS: Yeah, I mean, I’ve read that.
SP: That’s common knowledge, okay.
JS: Yeah.
SP: I just, you know, in politics, I don’t know what I am allowed to say.
JS: Yeah, right.
SP: But then, they were in contact with the editor.
JS: So that was going to be my last question, but you said something that I wanted, this will be my last question, so clearly, for this project data and graphs are an important part of the storytelling, but lots of books, people just throw a graph in there, and they don’t do all of this work to think about laying it out correctly, or making them look consistent. And so, I want to ask whether you think data visualization, at least, in the publishing world, I guess, we’ll just stick within the publishing world, would you think data visualization is now at a point where it’s almost a necessity or a requirement to have graphs and charts and diagrams that look really good throughout and look consistent across the book, rather than I think the way a lot of books have graphs are just kind of thrown in there, like, it is a screenshot from the Washington Post or wherever, it’s just sort of thrown in there. But do you think it’s come to a point where there is more emphasis and a greater requirement for better graphs in books?
SP: I mean, just speaking from my experience, well, I would say, yes, and I will let Sonja expand upon it, but I’m just going to use the example of, you know, this was for Penguin Random House, this book, but also published by Penguin Press in the UK, so they do a lot of the nonfiction, and they do a lot of nonfiction science writing, and they also, I think, they have like a – they may have an Allen Lane is their nonfiction imprint under this, like, how it’s styled, and through that, I believe that they also have people who are making all sorts of charts consistent within that text design style. So I think Penguin is always really well known for their design, and I think that falls under, you know, the look of the chart, the styling of the chart, making sure that it’s consistent with everything else is just as important, and I’ll hand it over to Sonja.
SK: Yeah, it’s not that I do these things often, so I’m not sure if I can say something about it. But I would love to see more of it, I’m not sure, because which kind of books are you referring to – I’ve seen things passed by on scientific publications, and then, I’m still not very worried on the status of… And I know they’re willing, but yeah, there’s still lots of steps to make there. And yeah, I hope they see this book, and that they can see that it’s possible.
JS: I like that, that’s a good way to end, so it’s the doom and gloom of the subject matter, but maybe the presentation will inspire some people, so hopefully, we’ll get some of that. Well, congrats on the book, it looks amazing. I can’t wait to get it in my hands, and congrats to you both. I hope, Sonja, especially, I hope you get your signed version from Greta, I hope it shows up in the mail. And yeah, thanks to you both for coming on the show, I really appreciate it.
SK: Yes, thanks for the invite.
SP: Thank you.
And thanks for tuning in to this week’s episode of the show, I hope you enjoyed that. I hope you’ll check out both Stefanie’s work and Sonja’s work, and I hope you will check out the new book from Greta Thunberg. And I hope you will check out the policyviz.com blog for more tutorials and lessons on data visualization. I hope you’ll check out my YouTube channel. If you want to support the show, if you want to support it financially, you can head over to Winno where I have a text messaging app service where I’ll send out data visualization tips and tricks every week for a small monthly fee, for like a dollar a month, you can get DataViz tips and tricks to your phone. If you want to share the podcast with your friends, your family, your coworkers, rate and review it on your favorite podcast provider. And if you’d like to rate or review my book, Better Data Visualizations on Amazon, I’d really appreciate that, trying to get over the hump of the poor binding that occurred in a couple of printings that have sort of affected the stars on Amazon. So if you want to go over and give a give a good boost to it, I’d appreciate that. So until next time, this has been the PolicyViz podcast, thanks so much for listening.
A whole team helps bring you the PolicyViz podcast. Intro and outro music is provided by the NRIs, a band based here in Northern Virginia. Audio editing is provided by Ken Skaggs. Design and promotion is created with assistance from Sharon Sotsky Remirez. And each episode is transcribed by Jenny Transcription Services. If you’d like to help support the podcast, please share and review it on iTunes, Stitcher, Spotify, YouTube, or wherever you get your podcast. The PolicyViz podcast is ad free and supported by listeners. But if you would like to help support the show financially, please visit our Winno app, PayPal page or Patreon page, all linked and available at policyviz.com.
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