The Well-Being Myth: Darren + Beck Iselin

In this podcast episode, host Jon interviews two guests from Australia, Darren Iselin and his daughter Beck, about the concept of wellbeing in schools. Beck, a teacher, discusses the increase in mental health issues among her students, such as anxiety and depression, as well as the rise in neurodivergent behaviors. She also shares her observations about the impact of the COVID-19 pandemic on student wellbeing. The conversation highlights the importance of relationships, trust, and cultural norms in fostering student wellbeing and flourishing. They conclude by expressing their hopes for the future of education, including a focus on connection and a joyful hope for student flourishing.

To learn more, order Jon's book, Just Teaching: Feedback, Engagement, and Well-Being for Each Student.

 

The Just Schools Podcast is brought to you by the Baylor Center for School Leadership. Each week, we'll talk to catalytic educators who are doing amazing work.

 

Be encouraged.

 

Mentioned:

Flourishing Together by Lynn Swaner and Andy Wolfe

Novice Advantage by Jon Eckert

Connect with us:

Baylor MA in School Leadership

Jon Eckert: @eckertjon

Center for School Leadership at Baylor University: @baylorcsl

 

Jon:

Welcome back to Just Schools. Today we have two guests in from Australia. Darren Iselin is one of our only ever repeat people on this podcast, he was so good the first time we brought him back again. And this time he's also brought his daughter Beck. Beck is in her sixth year of teaching year four in Australia. And so today we are going to have a conversation where we make a case against wellbeing. So if you aren't intrigued already, hopefully you will be after we start to hear from some of our friends here.

So let's start with Beck. So Beck, you're in your sixth year. So you've been teaching a little bit before Covid hit and then you've had almost half your time before and after Covid. How would you describe the wellbeing of your students in Australia now? And then we'll dig into why maybe that wellbeing is not the right term for our kids.

Beck:

Yeah, absolutely. Within my classroom context, in any given year post Covid, I generally have around 10 kids diagnosed anxiety. I've seen depression as well in addition to then neurodivergent behaviors, seeing a massive increase.

Jon:

Neuro divergent. I love the terms used. I mean five years ago, we never heard that but all right, so continue with neurodivergent. Sorry to interrupt.

Beck:

So that's an increase in that, in addition to what I was already seeing. I think there's been a lot of children coming in just not at their, we talk about battery packs and they're coming into that school day and their battery pack is just completely drained at the start of the school day. And I think Covid times are really interesting for me. I was still teaching grade one back then and in Australia we only had remote learning for a short time. But for my students, the students who attended school, their wellbeing if you want to call it that I guess, they just seemed happier and settled and then the students who were learning at home seemed the same. And so then coming back from Covid was really hard because the students at school that had had so much more attention had had a different school day, they then struggled with having everyone back together and then the students who were at home who had had Mom and Dad doting on them for the whole day and only having to do some hours.

Jon:

I want to be in that house. I don't think our kids felt like they were doted on our house.

Beck:

I know sitting in Mom and Dad's office chair, we saw Ugg boots with the school uniforms, so then they loved that time. And so what I found really interesting was the coming back to I guess what we had considered normal school. And I feel like we've kind of been struggling to still come back after that, if that makes sense.

Jon:

Yes. Well in the US some schools were out for long periods of time, so there's significant learning loss that's happened and they're not able to figure out ways to minimize that impact and then accelerate forward on top of all the shifts in the way kids have gone through schooling over the last four years.

Darren, we had a conversation with a renowned education scholar and in that conversation we were talking about wellbeing and flourishing and some of the issues that Beck just alluded to because we're seeing that in college students, we're seeing in grad students, we're seeing it in K through 12 students for sure. He mentioned that he did not like the term wellbeing and he didn't like the term flourishing. From what you recall of that conversation, what was his beef with those two terms? To me those have been some of the most ubiquitous terms in schools and who's against wellbeing? And here I'm saying we're making a case against it. What was his problem with those terms?

Darren:

Yeah, I think it comes out of a sense that the way that we are orientating the whole educational process has become highly individualized, highly about the self, the atomized version of who we are, and we've lost sight of, I guess a larger understanding of community and understanding of relationship and understanding of how we do this educative process together as opposed to siloed and isolated. And I think his main concern was around that the notion of wellbeing has become more and more about an introspective subjective version of what that means as an outcome as opposed to something that is around a collective purpose and meaning making that can be shared in a journey together.

Jon:

So when you think about Aristotle's view of the purpose of education, it was to lead to a flourishing society, which is an individual component to that, but that also has a communal purpose, it's not just to flourish. That becomes an issue. So I think I agree that was one of his things that he was pushing back against. And then I felt like he was also pushing against the idea that if kids believe that when they go to school their wellbeing is going to be attended to, and educators see wellbeing as the end, that communicates to them a freedom from struggle. And in fact, in his view, and also I think in our shared view, education is struggle. It's not freedom from struggle, it's freedom to struggle well.

So I know Beck, you were just in US schools, you were visiting and then you have your school context, and again, you just got to drop in on a US school. But do see kids struggling well in schools, do you think they think of wellbeing and flourishing including struggle? Is that something that your students in Australia... Or my perception is in the US that's not something that's expected as a part of wellbeing and that wellbeing is freedom from it. What do you see?

Beck:

I love that because I think some teachers can be so quick to put up the poster, the growth mindset poster of the struggle is healthy. And you might see it in a room in that sense physically, but I like to talk about it almost like this sense of accomplishment. And so at one point a school that I was in had a model where if students experienced struggle, the classroom was then no longer a safe space. And it was like, okay, we need to remove them from the struggle. We don't really know what we'll do with them at that point. We might have calm down strategies, we might do all sorts of things, but then what was happening was that these students never got to experience the sense of accomplishment that came from doing a task that they thought they couldn't do and then actually succeeding in that.

And I've even heard students say to me like, "Oh, I had no idea I was able to do that," or "Oh, that was actually really fun." Or to the point where I had one student discover just a love of reading, had never wanted to touch a book or pick up a book before that. And then just with that I guess a sense of going, you can do it and being careful with the language that I used around her, she's now the student that literally walks around with her head in a book and that's just unlocked a whole new world for her as well. And so I think I'm cautious to never rob my students of that and to embrace that struggle.

Jon:

I love the idea of not robbing your students of it. And you mentioned in a conversation we had earlier about the space in a classroom you can go if you feel like you need a time to take a break and you just need to disengage and then not participate. And obviously there are times when kids are unregulated and they just need a space to calm down and that's real, but it becomes a crutch. And so then you've taken away the chance for a kid to struggle well. So how do you balance that? The kid who needs some time to regulate versus the kid who needs to be stretched, the cognitive endurance needs to be challenged, the push has to be there. How have you figured out how to balance that? I know you've figured out all the answers because in your sixth year of teaching, so how do you do that?

Beck:

I think I couldn't not mention relationship. So much comes down to the trust that is built. But I guess if I could say practically aside from that, I have had spaces like that in my classroom. In my grade one classroom we had the cool down couch.

Jon:

I want to go to the cool down couch.

Beck:

It was great. It was this bright green vinyl. I had kids asleep on that thing. It was great. But one thing I loved was having a space, I've seen tents, I've seen all sorts of things, having a space where the student was still in close proximity to their peers. They were still part of our discussions, but they just perhaps weren't sitting at their desk in a scratchy chair. Maybe it was a little bit quieter where they were, but there was always a sense of I feel that it's best for you to be in this room. We want you here. This is community, this is belonging. And what pathway is built if when they begin to struggle, I send them out. And so yeah, I guess what I saw then was children who maybe don't look like they're listening the way that we might expect. I've heard crisscross applesauce. That's a big thing here.

Jon:

Yes, it's a big thing here. Yes.

Beck:

Yeah. But then still being able to engage in discussion just might not look the way that I expect it to look.

Jon:

No, that's good. So Darren, when you look up the word flourish, so we've picked on wellbeing for a little bit, and again, I want to make it clear we're all for wellbeing. We know you can't do any of the work that we do in schools without wellbeing. But if we're communicating to kids that the definition of wellbeing or flourishing, if you look up in Merriam Webster's, the dictionary, it says flourish means to grow luxuriantly. I don't think anyone would read that and think, oh, that means I need to struggle. And so how do we as leaders of schools and catalysts for other school leaders, how do we help our educators communicate to students what it means to struggle well? Especially as Christians because I think we have a better view of what it means to flourish as human beings knowing that we're made in the image of God. So how do we do that? Have you had any success in Australia doing this? Do you have any hope for us?

Darren:

Look, I think there is hope, and I think it's very much around how we're framing that conversation, Jon. To talk about this notion of flourishing as though it's the removal of all of those mechanisms that will imply risk, that will imply struggle, that will imply a wrestling through actually goes against the very grain of what we're really after with genuine wellbeing and genuine flourishing which we want in our school communities.

I think something that comes back to our training as educators is always around that Vygotskian term around the zone of proximal development. And of course what we can do together can be exponentially better than what we can do on our own. And I think that notion of proximal development, we could apply to very different frames.

We can do that pedagogically, what that pedagogical zone of proximal development looks like. What does relational proximal development look like? Going back to Beck's couch and the safe spaces that we create within our classrooms, what does cultural proximal development look like? Where we're actually together working on solutions that will expand and what we end up with through struggle, through risk, through uncertainty is actually better rounded and better formed students, better formed teachers, better formed communities within our schools.

Jon:

I love that ZPD applied to relational development. So my question then for Beck is you're now in that sweet spot I feel like in the teaching profession. The first year you're just trying to figure it out. The second year you're trying to pick up what you muddled through the first year. And by the third year you hit a, if you've gotten to teach the same grade level subject, you kind of like, okay, I get this. And you can look around and see what colleagues do I pull into this? How can I be more intentional about things other than just being survival mode?

So your zone of proximal development for relational development as a leader in your classroom and beyond, you have more capacity for that now. So how have you seen your capacity for struggle increase? Because now you have the ability to not constantly be thinking about what am I saying? What am I doing? What's the lesson plan? You have this bandwidth, how have you seen yourself grow in that relational ZPD?

Beck:

I think there's definitely been, as with probably comes with any job, just an easing into it. And so there is a sense of it just being a lot of second nature and also just coming back every day and just having eyes that would see beyond the behaviors and having eyes that would see beyond maybe the meltdowns and the language used not just from my students but from within the whole school community. I think that obviously with then success and going, oh, I've done this before. I remember when I did this for this student before, this really worked quite well.

And it never is the same for two students, but there's definitely a confidence that grows. And whilst I am in my sixth year, I don't feel like I'm in my sixth year. I feel like I have so much more to learn. But I think teaching is just like that. I think that the point where you just say, no, I've learned everything there is to learn, that's a dangerous place to be in. And I think there's so much to learn from our students as well. They teach me so much every day. And one of my greatest joys is when I see them begin to celebrate each other's successes and interact with each other in the same way that I guess I'm trying to create that culture.

Darren:

And becomes a very cultural dimension, Jon, where there is that capacity for trust, for engagement, for that sense of that we are in this together. And because we're in it together both within the students but within our classroom, there are these cultural norms that are created that are so powerful. And as someone who, obviously I'm very biased going into my daughter's own classroom, but when I see classrooms that are actually reflecting a culture where that proximal development is taking place culturally, relationally, pedagogically, it really is a transformative space. It's a safe space, but it's not without risk. And so it's not safetyism, as Jonathan Haight would say, it's actually a place where people are entrusted to be able to be who they are, to be real and authentic in that space and allow for that image bearing capacity to find its fullness.

Jon:

Yeah. So when you say that, I go back to the, obviously we need schools to be safe, we need classrooms to be safe, but I think if we tell kids that they're going to wait until they feel safe to share, marginalized kids will never share. And so in fact, they need to be respectful spaces that celebrate the risk taking what you described about seeing kids and celebrating that. And I think what you also described was gritty optimism. It isn't the naive optimism of a beginner. So my first book I wrote was called The Novice Advantage, and I talk about the shift that happens when you go from naive optimism to gritty optimism where you're optimistic based on things you've seen kids grow and do that you didn't think they could do.

And when you can take that from the classroom and make that be a school-wide value, that's when it gets fun. Because when we say struggle, nobody wants to struggle. I don't want to struggle. I know sanctification is a process of being stretched. I want to be stretched without having been stretched. I don't want to go through the process of it. I want the benefit of it on the back end. And so I think what I want to see as a profession or people like you Beck and you Darren, leading other educators in this struggle where we celebrate the growth that we see, when we do more than we thought we can do and that it be fun.

I don't think that the way I'm conceiving of wellbeing, that includes freedom to struggle well as being something that's onerous and compliance driven. I see it as something that, no, I could do this in August. I can do this now in December. Beck, I could do this as a first year teacher. I can do this now in my sixth year and I can point to how I've grown. So if you were to think back over the six years, how are you fundamentally different as a teacher because of some of the hard things that you've gone through in your first six years?

Beck:

I think to throw another buzzword in, I would say resilient.

Darren:

Oh yes.

Jon:

Yes.

Beck:

I think there's been so many micro moments. It's very hard to pinpoint and say this class or this child or this parent or this moment, but it's just the micro moments every day. Teachers make thousands upon thousands of decisions daily. And I think there's almost a sense of empowerment in going, when I speak from my own successes, I then can call that out in someone else. I think every teacher starts their career one of two ways, very bright-eyed. I was like, I've got the rainbow-

Jon:

Idealistic.

Beck:

... rainbow decor, I've got the cool down couch, everything's alliterated. And I think I was very blessed to actually have taught the two cohorts that I taught in first grade again in fourth grade. And that was very significant for me because one, I got to enjoy all of the great things I saw in grade one, but they was so much more independent. But also it was in some ways a second chance to go, Hey, that thing that I really didn't do well when I was fumbling around in grade one, let's do that again and let's do it together.

You know that I was there and I know that I was there, but we're both on this journey together. And that then created stronger community and this sense of identity to the point where I had one of my students create a hashtag on Cecil, which is a platform that students can upload to. And one of the photos he goes, hashtag 4B for life. And I was like, "What did you mean, Luke? What is this?" And he was like, "Oh, it just means we've got each other's backs," and all these things that, I mean, I could have put signs up and said, we're a family and we have this and these are our class rules and whatever. But I would much rather that come from their mouth and just knowing that they felt it was safe, I didn't have to prove that something... I didn't have to prove that I was a safe person. I didn't have to prove that my classroom was a safe space. It just became that. And yeah, looking back, I think it just makes me more excited, I think for the years ahead.

Jon:

Well, they owned the culture. It wasn't you forcing the culture. They owned it and you have the evidence of it. So Darren, you've been in education a little bit longer than Beck.

Darren:

Just one or two more years.

Jon:

How do you see your growth or the growth of educators like Beck? Where are you encouraged by growth that you've seen in yourself or growth just in the profession and what you've seen in Australia or you've been all over the world seeing this, where do you see optimism for this growth?

Darren:

I think the optimism comes Jon, when you see the capacity for that transformative interaction between student and teacher. That sacred moment on day one, which for many of our schools in Australia are going back within one or two weeks for that day one. And we start afresh. We start afresh with the newness of a new year, a new class, new minds, new hearts, new relationships to engage with and to see the transformative impact that that has.

And year after year, we come back to that core element of what it means to actually be about this ancient task of teaching. To be able to engage this space well through struggle, yes, through risk, through uncertainty, through all the things that will be thrown at us in this year. And yet there is something about being a part of a community, a network, a culture that is established within a classroom that truly is a microcosm of what that school should look like right through as you talked about those norms and values that flow, and then indeed what a wider community would look like.

And that notion of flourishing of what shalom might look like in its holistic sense, I think is the responsibility that every teacher has. And I get excited at this time of the year, this beginning phase that every teacher goes in, whether they've been teaching for 30 years or this is their first year of teaching, when they stand before that class for the first day, that first hour when they're establishing those norms, those expectations, we are filled with hope. We are filled with expectation, we are filled that we want to be part of 4B forever-

Jon:

That's right.

Darren:

... because of what we are endeavoring to achieve here with purpose and meaning and something that goes far beyond just a transactional arrangement.

Jon:

I mean, teaching is one of the most human things we do and it's what keeps us coming back to it. And I'm excited about the tools that are out there from AI to ChatGPT to whatever, but anything that takes the human out of it is a problem. And so in just teaching, I define wellbeing as purpose-driven, flourishing, and then feedback is purpose-driven wisdom for growth. There's this huge component. And that only comes from humans. Because AI is consensus, it's scraping whatever the web has said on a certain topic and says, Hey, here's what consensus is. That's not wisdom. And so we gain wisdom from struggle. We're much more able to help and have empathy for people once we've been through something hard. We become much less judgmental. And I think that's grounded in two Corinthians four, seven through 10. And I think as educators we get to live that out all the time.

And so I was sharing with you before we jumped on, I memorized these verses as a kid, but I didn't memorize verse 10, which is the most important one. So if you remember Paul's writing to the Corinthians and they were known for pottery that would be cracked and you could put a light in it and the light would shine through it. So it makes this passage even more powerful. And it comes from our friend Lynn Swaner and Andy Wolfe's book Flourishing Together. And they use this as their paradigm for what this means. And it's super encouraging in this way. But we have this treasure in jars of clay to show that the all surpassing power is from God, not from us. We're hard-pressed on every side but not crushed, perplexed but not in despair, persecuted but not abandoned, struck down but not destroyed. So those are the ones that are there and those are daunting if you put in educators instead of we. Educators are hard-pressed on every side.

Darren:

Sums up our profession.

Jon:

It's felt like that, right? But that gives us the opportunity to show Christ. And so that's where verse 10 comes in. We always carry around in our bodies the death of Jesus so that the life of Jesus may also may be revealed in our bodies. So our creator had to come, suffer, die and we carry that around so that we can then reflect his glory to others because he's at work in us. So as we do this work, that's the hope, that's the joy.

Darren:

Absolutely.

Jon:

Right. And so we're going to wrap up our time with a lightning round. And so I always like to ask, I have five or six kind of go-to questions here. And so I'm curious and feel free to build on anything that we've talked about so far, but this is a word, phrase or sentence. I'm terrible at this. I always would go too long if I were asked this. But if you were to think back on this past year and what we've just talked about, what real wellbeing is, really that's what we're talking about. What is real wellbeing? What's one word that sums up for you how you've approached your own wellbeing in this past year? What would be a word that comes into mind? And in this one, I really do want the first word that pops in your head.

Beck:

Fulfillment for me.

Jon:

Great word, Beck. That was quick. She's younger than we are. Her mind works faster. So Darren, go for it.

Darren:

I'll tell you something quite random, gaming. Now I'm not a gamer, but I love games and Beck shares that passion. We often don't get to play them as much as we should, but we have room full of games that we can pick at any given time. But there is something that is dynamic about gaming. There's something about when you enter into play into that space of actually struggle, of risk, of uncertainty, of joy. And I think in all of that, that to me has been something that has really resonated with me as I've looked at this whole notion of wellbeing is we need to play more, we need to have more fun, Jon. We get to far too serious about too many things.

Jon:

That's right. Darren's a lightning round guy like I am. Beck had literally one word.

Beck:

I'm obedient. Follow the instructions.

Jon:

So I wasn't planning to ask this one, but in the last year, what has been your favorite game that you have played? One of your top five?

Beck:

I have to say Ticket to Ride for me.

Jon:

Oh, I love Ticket to Ride.

Beck:

And all the expansion packs.

Jon:

I've not done the expansion packs. All right. Ticket to Ride. Great.

Darren:

We just love our trivial games. So anything that's got trivia in it. And there are some really awful games of that, there are some really fantastic games that we play with that.

Beck:

Lots of eighties trivia.

Darren:

Lots of eighties and nineties trivia. Just to boost the points for-

Beck:

That's not my sweet spot.

Darren:

... Mom and Dad.

Jon:

Yes. Well my kids love the Harry Potter Trivial Pursuit because I sit and listen to them and I am both proud and cringing that they know Harry Potter that well.

Darren:

My children are like that with Lord of the Rings and Star Wars.

Beck:

Or any sport.

Jon:

Oh well that's okay. Sport is all clear. All good. Okay. So what's the best book you've read in the last year? And it doesn't have to be education related, but it could be.

Beck:

Mine is a Hinds' Feet on High Places by Hannah Hurnard.

Jon:

Okay.

Beck:

Yeah. Fantastic book. It's an allegory, follows the story of a character called Much Afraid, who is on her way to the high places and has to walk in the hinds' feet of the shepherd leading her. Powerful.

Jon:

That sounds powerful. All right, Darren?

Darren:

Mine was a book by Andy Crouch called The Life We're Looking For, really about reclaiming relationships in a technological age. And I just found that such a riveting read. I read it almost in one sitting. It was that engaging.

Jon:

Wow. I love Andy Crouch. That's great. So two great recommendations there. All right. Worst piece of advice you've ever received as an educator? Either one of you.

Beck:

As an educator, that's tricky.

Jon:

Or you can just go, worst piece of advice that could be fun too.

Darren:

Well, the classic that is often rolled out is don't smile till Easter, right. Now it might have a different terminology in the US .

Jon:

It's Thanksgiving. Don't smile till Thanksgiving.

Darren:

From my day one of teaching Jon, I refused to even go to that space. It was just so against everything that I believed as far as the relational heart of teaching.

Jon:

That's great.

Beck:

I would've said the same. Non-educator worst advice, just add caramel syrup to American coffee and it tastes better. That's terrible advice. Nothing will save it.

Jon:

Nothing will save American coffee. Hey, it's a struggle. It's part of the struggle. There you go. It's not contributing to your wellbeing.

Darren:

The joy in the journey.

Jon:

That's good. All right. So I will say about 70% of the people on this give the worst piece of advice that they've ever received that don't smile till the thing. And so we get that every time.

Beck:

Original.

Jon:

It's so sad that-

Darren:

Tragic.

Jon:

...that is so pervasive. Best piece of advice you've ever received? And this could be in general or as an educator.

Darren:

I will go with education again, Jon, that at the heart of education is the education of the heart. And so just keep it real and keep it relational. And it's all about relationships.

Beck:

As an educator, best advice I've received, I don't know if you could call it advice, but the quote "The kids who need love the most are the hardest to love." That's my favorite.

Jon:

That's good. Last question, last word for the listeners. What do you hope in the years ahead as an educator will best define what it means to flourish as a student? So word, phrase, or sentence. What would flourishing really look like for a kid moving forward?

Beck:

I would say a word, connection. And I would love to see Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs starting at the bottom not always at the top in our classrooms.

Jon:

Love it.

Darren:

Yeah. I think for me the word that constantly comes to mind is joyful hope, is a joyful hope in what we do, that what we've been entrusted with every year within our classrooms. That there's a joyful hope that awaits.

Jon:

Well, thank you for being with us today. It's been a huge blessing for me.