Episode 14 - Amy Beacom and Sue Campbell

Amy Beacom, Ed.D. and Sue Campbell are two amazing women that authored The Parental Leave Playbook. They have been leading the charge on rights for parental leave and helping businesses understand that a shift needs to happen on how we think about parental leave. This is one fantastic conversation that you should not miss.

 

Leighann Lovely  00:19

If you are an HR professional business owner or at the operations level trying to understand what people want. You may be struggling our systems have been shocked practices have been questioned and culture is the leading conversation. Let's learn how culture is created, sustained, and why it should be the leading conversation when discussing hiring, training and retention. This is the foundation of any business and it's time to address it. So tune in to Let's Talk HR humanizing the conversation. We tackle topics that influencers of change need to understand and struggle to overcome every day, such as where to start, and what the new workforce wants and how to attract and keep positive momentum going. I'm your host Leighann Lovely.

 

Leighann Lovely  01:06

This episode is sponsored by practice law, the law firm that puts professionalism in legal representation. Their attorneys have 49 years of experience behind their work if you have questions or concerns. They are the attorneys you can trust with expertise in litigation, real estate, criminal defense, family and divorce, business and real estate planning. You can count on them. Practice moves legal services forward, you can contact practice at 414-988-9596 or 262-269-9140. Or you can inquire on their website, www.praktesslaw.com. That's www.praktesslaw.com.

 

Leighann Lovely  02:13

This is going to be a great conversation today. Dr. Amy Beacom is the founder and CEO of the Center for parental leave leadership, the first full service consultancy in the US to focus exclusively on parental leave, she conceived of and began developing the field of parental leave coaching and consulting in 2006. Drawing on her over 25 years in executive leadership development and coaching. Amy consults with Fortune 100 companies, international organizations, working parents and more to transform the way companies and our country engages with the parental leave transition. Amy is also the co author of the parental leave playbook 10 touch points to transition smoothly strengthen your family and continue building your career. We will also be joined by Sue Campbell. She is a writer, author and coach who has worked with the center of parental leave leadership since its early days helping communicate the transformative impact of their core mission. Her writing often focuses on issues important to parents. She has been published in many outlets, including prevention, Good Housekeeping scary mom and Mama lobe. Sue and Amy, thank you so much for joining me today. I'm really excited to have this conversation. Both of you are such amazing women with you know, the your your topics and your book that you recently. Well, not recently, but with your book that you wrote. So why don't we jump right in? Sue? Why don't you start off by introducing yourself?

 

Sue Campbell  03:51

Sure. Thanks so much for having us. I'm Sue Campbell, and I'm a writer and a coach. And I've worked with the Center for parental leave leadership where Amy is the founder and CEO for about eight or nine years now. And really fell into this work because Amy offered something really unique, which was that we have a broken system. This is not a parent's job to fix when it comes to parental leave. And we can fix this in large part through employers while we're waiting for the country to get its act together. So after my first parental leave experience, I was all on board to help with that in any way I could.

 

Leighann Lovely  04:31

Excellent and Amy, why don't you introduce yourself?

 

Amy Beacom  04:35

Sure. Thank you for having us here. My name is Dr. Amy Beacom. I am the founder and CEO of the Center for parental leave leadership. We are the only full service consultancy in the country to focus exclusively on parental leave and we do everything from policy work to what our true love is coaching coach certification around parental leave and manager training the practice side of it.

 

Leighann Lovely  05:05

That's awesome. It's such a unique topic, because it's so strange because I just recently heard somebody say to me, Well, how it wasn't presented necessarily this way. But she's somebody said to me, Well, they're having a baby, and oh, my gosh, they're taking their full three months of leaves. And I'm like, yeah, well. I said, I mean, isn't that isn't that, like, kind of part of what you get to do? And? Well, yeah, but how does that impact everybody else? Like, yeah, that's, that's, you know, part of what you get to do. When you have a child, you know, that's part of. So it's such a great time for me to actually have because that's such a fresh thing in my fresh, right, that a conversation I just recently had, and what a topic to discuss, because one of the most impactful moments, and I remember my dad always telling me, there are there are only a couple of things in life that that literally can stop anybody in their track, and that everything else should wash away. Death life. And I can't remember the other one, but the birth. I mean, those are the two really huge ones. Right? Right. If somebody passes away, obviously, you need to, you need to stop and remember that person. The other thing is life, that should be the number one most important thing that anybody celebrates having a child and it shouldn't just be about the woman having a child, it should be about the dad, also having a child, you're never going to get to experience that again. Right? So what I mean, you can't just have a baby and run back to work, you need to be able to experience something you're never ever going to experience again, ever with that. That's child right.

 

Amy Beacom  07:10

Here, here, we and you know, we are on board with that message. Right. And I think the important thing to for your audience to really understand is that is while that transition, that massive personal and professional transition is happening to that individual who's becoming a parent, to your point earlier with that, that story of that conversation you had it is also happening to those around them. And so what we do in a lot of our work is we help hold space and make a process that is clear and supportive for that new parent that also considers those around them. So I don't I just don't want your listeners to think that those are mutually exclusive. Because a lot of what we are trying to shift people's thinking around is these can be mutually beneficial.

 

Leighann Lovely  08:06

Awesome. And that's not something that I thought that definitely I mean, again, I'm not the expert, you You guys are the experts. Right? You know. So you the you guys collaborated on writing a book about parental leave, obviously. So tell me a little bit in Tell me a little bit about this. Obviously, don't know, spoilers, you everybody needs to go out and buy the book. But, you know, tell me a little bit and tell me the story. How did you and you're both parents. So tell me the story of where this originated? And why you became so passionate about this?

 

Amy Beacom  08:41

Sure, I guess so I should take that one. This is Amy. It started with me becoming a parent almost 16 years ago. And like many people who get into any kind of parents support or birth support work, they have a, an experience themselves. And for me, it was a very, I'll try and give you the short version. I was living in New York, I was getting my doctorate in Organizational Psychology at Columbia focused on executive education and coaching, specifically women's leadership advancement and how to create more space for women in leadership roles within companies. And so I'd been doing that work for a long time. I'd been in that field before going back to school, and I was consulting to some of the biggest companies in this country around work life balance issues, women's leadership issues. And I was very excited to become a mom. And I thought I would I knew it right thought I could pull it off. I thought oh, I'm an expert in this area. I'm going to be fine. And then I had my child and was knocked off my feet by the experience. And for your listeners, this was T men a half plus years ago, right? So it was a very different environment. And there was no awareness around this time being a transition being an important thing that was happening being something that could be valuable. And it's leadership lessons to bring back into work. None of that was at all part of the conversation. It was you women only had children, they went away, had them talk about it, like came back. And that was it. Right? They fit back right in, they weren't changed. That was it. And so when I had my child, I had a very different experience. I was like, Nope, that's, that's not really going to fly. And more importantly, we are completely missing one of the most important moments in a woman's career lifecycle. And if we can support that well. And back then I was only thinking about women, because I was that's that was my focus. I've since expanded that to all genders. But if we can really support that time, well, both at home and at work, that will transform our work, work cultures, that will allow for more of the things that I was working towards more equity in, in our organizations, better culture is more family friendly cultures, just more humane Places to Work that were also hugely effective. Because as we know, mothers are hugely effective. So that's what started it, I changed the focus of my doctoral research and began to create a field which at the time I was calling parental leave, or maternity coaching and consulting and now is parental leave coaching and consulting. And I have been fighting for that to happen ever since. And that's taken lots of forms. See, PLL is one, the book is another. Our coach certification program is another we've just started this year to train coaches external to our organization. So some of those are internal HR within organizations leave navigators within organizations. Some of those are doulas therapists who work with new parents already, but want to expand their knowledge. And, and then a lot of them are coaches who are expanding into the parental leave support timeframe. So as long answers, Sue anything to add to that.

 

Sue Campbell  12:50

Yeah, I'll just add a little bit about the book itself. The book itself, we wanted it to be like having a parental leave coach in your hand, because we know that very few people are getting parental leave coaching. So we wanted to really distill the the essentials of our work with clients when we coach them and be able to put that in the palm of any new parents hand. So it leads you through these 10 touch points that can have this outsize impact on the success of your transition. And it's broken into three phases, right? People think of parental leave as just the time that someone is physically out of the office. And that is not the case, as Amy referred to it's a transition there is before you go on leave, when you're preparing to step out the door and handoff your work, there's during leave when you're bonding with your new child and your family. And then there's returning from leave where you're trying to incorporate your previous worker identity with your new parent identity into a working parent identity. So this transition can take a year or longer. And it's really important to recognize what is broken in the system. And what you have control over so that you know the avenues where you have a chance to improve and you can lead your own leave because a lot of organizations, they're still a vacuum. And they're sort of recreating the wheel with every new lead. But we also recommend the book right for new for anybody in an organization, who is in HR who wants to understand what a good transition can look like, right? When actually the publisher wanted it to be just for parents. But we wanted to do the you know, when you were a kid and you had a book on one side, it was one book and then you like flipped it over. And it was another one. So we wanted to do one side is for the new parent and then you flip it over and it's for the manager, right? Because managers can absolutely make or break the parental leave experience. And when we go into an organization, we're not just coaching that new parent, we're also coaching the manager so they can understand how to get the benefits out of the transition, how to use it to grow your team, etc, etc. So it's really important to create that common language and that's what this book can do.

 

Leighann Lovely  14:58

You know in this This is really interesting. There's a common thread in one hearing what I'm hearing here because in bear with me here for a second. So manufacturing back in the day, and this is still a struggle, still struggle, manufacturing floor, there was this brilliant CNC operator who knew how to run his machine. And all of his notes, were in a little black book that he kept in his locker. And he didn't tell anybody, you know how to run this machine, because it was, well, if anybody else knows I could be expendable kind of thing. Well, nowadays, you know, we want to spread the knowledge, we want to cross train everybody. I mean, it's, it's kind of runs on the same premise, right? You know, hey, you have somebody who's going to be going on leave, this opens the door for more cross training, more understanding of why it's important to cross train. So, I mean, this is not a new concept. But it's just a concept based on now you have somebody who's in a transition in their life where, you know, you have to be some maybe sometimes a little bit more sensitive. I remember when I was pregnant, my boss once sat me down, and he goes, You know, I don't want to be rude. He goes, but am I talking to Leighann? Or am I talking to pregnant Leighann, he goes, You seem a little wow, is I don't know how to take that.

 

Amy Beacom  16:30

So we might do a little coaching around that.

 

Leighann Lovely  16:32

And I and I know I have, sometimes I can be, I can be a little bit of an explosive personality when I get my, you know, my, like, determined mine on and I know that when I was pregnant, I was like, hyper, like explosive in certain sort. So I he and I had a really, really strong, solid relationship where he could say that to me, I wasn't offended by it. Now. I know that out there, there are women who are going, I would have sued him. No, no, we didn't. It was we have that relationship. But I mean, going back where was?

 

Amy Beacom  17:10

Just it's not a new concept, right? It's a, what we're doing. And much of our work as you're picking up on, is we're just saying, this is a really good time to learn all this stuff. This is an experiential learning opportunity that is free, it's already happening in your organization sees it, right, that is cross training, if that is learning how to create more family supportive supervisory behaviors, how to have better communication to your story, how to understand where that line is, and where your trust levels are. So you don't cross it. You know, all of those things come up during this time there, right. And we, we want people to walk into that instead of what not only walk away from it, but like, lock it up in a black box and put it up on a shelf of something that can't be touched or talked about, because you might spurs a gender discrimination lawsuit, or you know, to your point I want, you know, let's do them. It's all very, you know, it's all very bright. Live time.

 

Leighann Lovely  18:23

Yeah, very, it's very interesting. I mean, wow, very interesting. And so this kind of leads me into my next, you know, my next question. So, why do you think so many people still fear taking time off for the full length of time? I mean, we we are now talking about, you know, how this transition people are becoming more open to this, but there's still this fear around, oh, if I take off my full three months, a job may not be there. But we as a society are looking at this even more, as you know, yeah, you you can take time to bond. But yet, I still.

 

Amy Beacom  19:08

Were sending two messages. So sorry, I don't want to interrupt. But I just that's such an important point. You're saying where people are fearful of taking time off, because there's the overt message that they're being told you get three months, and then there's the subtle penalizing that they experience or they see around them for those who do take that time away. So there's still navigating a climate in which and culture in which we haven't shifted. We're in the process of it. Some organizations have done it beautifully. But the larger messaging and the the subtle messaging and not so subtle, sometimes write is you will be penalized if you take that time.

 

Leighann Lovely  19:54

You're right. And that I guess goes back to how I started this when I had account when I have that comma recession of oh, you know, I can't believe she's taking this time off. How is this going to affect me? And I find it interesting. There are other countries out there that give, Hey, go and take a full year off. Yet? How is it that here in the US, we are so far behind in something like this, yet other countries are so far advanced?

 

Amy Beacom  20:25

Well, so in part that is a misconception, there's too, and the way to think about it is between if you separate policy and practice, so many, many countries, all countries except for the US, and for five small little nation states offer paid leave. So paid leave is a policy, that means you're getting your pay for when you're away from work. And some, as you mentioned, go up to a year some we have nothing in the US. So that's a horrible, it needs to change, right? It should have changed. It was part of the build back better act this last year that was not passed, we would have had paid leave as a national policy for the first time ever. So for your listeners who aren't aware FMLA is and I'm sure they are their HR wanks. But you know, FMLA is unpaid job protection is not paid leave a lot of employees think that FMLA also means they get their pay. So there's always a wake up call around pay. But policy and pay are one thing, practice is another. So in most of those other countries, they also have issues around practice and culture. And how do we do this? So we, I just caution, because we think, Oh, well, so and so does this so beautifully. And it's not necessarily true. We started our work. After I created the parental leave coaching program, the it's an evidence based program that I created as part of my doctoral work at Columbia. And that is, our country wasn't ready for it yet. So we ended up piloting all of that work in Australia, which has a much longer paid leave policy. And what we found was the US actually was much further ahead in some of the cultural pieces in some of the support advancement, organizational pieces. And so feel free to pop in if you have any examples of that, because I mind is blanking at the moment. But that was just a really eye opening time for us where we had gone into it thinking oh, because they have paid leave, they must be doing everything right. And they were actually looking to us and saying, Oh wow, look at how you guys have milk, stork breast milk can ship with you, you know, now there's nannies who can fly with new parents who travel and of course, these are only in the organizations that are doing it really well. Some of the enterprise level companies, but I just want your listeners to separate out those two, there's policy and a strong policy is critical to support a strong practice. But they you there are things you can do in the practice level if your policy hasn't caught up.

 

Leighann Lovely  23:36

Interesting. So if I'm understanding this correct, policy versus practice, we are which one are we ahead on?

 

Sue Campbell  23:49

Behind on policy, we don't have a paid leave policy.

 

Leighann Lovely  23:53

Right. Okay.

 

Amy Beacom  23:54

But there are some elements of practice where we're a little bit ahead, right, we get more creative, we've had to be more creative with practice, because we don't have the policy.

 

Leighann Lovely  24:03

Interesting. Very interesting. Now, and you mentioned something in there that that triggered me when it comes to, and I'm sure that you come up against this regularly. Because when when a woman is transitioning back into the workforce, and this has been something that's and I remember the first time I ever saw this and I was like, Oh, what is this room that has a a chair in it and you know, a nice lighting that I'm not allowed to go in because I'm 20 and I don't have a child. So, is this something that you talk to companies about for women who are transitioning back in an actual room where they can go and pump?

 

Sue Campbell  24:49

Absolutely.

 

Amy Beacom  24:52

In many places you legally need to provide that

 

Leighann Lovely  24:55

legally need to provide it something that's other than the dirty Bathroom, I'm assuming.

 

Amy Beacom  25:01

Yes. And for your listeners, I, you know, just to put a name on it back in the 90s, when I was talking about these issues, they were called lactation stations, the rooms and where the, the breastfeeding person would go and pump, pump their milk. So now there's much more, you know, there's many nicer names, but it's, uh, my, some of them get really funny.

 

Sue Campbell  25:31

What's my first parental leave, when I came back to work, I asked for a place to pump. So they gave me a conference room with a broken lock on the door. And just there was just a table, right. And then after I was all done breastfeeding, shortly after that, that room got a major spruce up, it got a water source, it got like a little locker, it got a fridge, it got like, it just got the treatment. And I walked in there and I'm like, All right, I'm not going to be jealous, I'm just going to be happy that they move forward.

 

Amy Beacom  26:13

So to answer your question, that is something we do talk to organizations about because we're what we're trying to do is help them understand how to support this timeframe for that new parent to feel genuinely supported, and that they matter to their organization. So parts of that include, how are they going to return in a way that allows them to show up at work. That means if they are a nursing mom, and they need to pump while they're at work, they need to do that regularly. Or they will start leaking milk all over the office, right? Like so you can't, you need to make that possible. That means considering how long meetings go building in breaks, if you have a nursing mom on your team, you know that there's just some basics that most people don't consider because they're not in that position. But for that new parent, it's their entire world. And if something goes wrong in those three months on their return three to six months is they're shifting back and trying to navigate both this entirely new way of being in in their work person. If that's supported, well, you have a loyal, dedicated employee who will help you with all future parents, you know, there's there's so much to be gained from it. For very, very little give. Just basic consideration. Right.

 

Leighann Lovely  27:43

And this is this is all extremely fascinating, because one I when I had my child I want I didn't have to. I've failed as a as a breastfeeding mother. I lasted a month, and then

 

Amy Beacom  28:01

It's not a failure.

 

Leighann Lovely  28:04

It just it I got what is it called? Status? Yes. And I went, yep. No, I'm throwing in the throwing. Yep.

 

Amy Beacom  28:16

Well, Kozma status is a horrible, horrible, incredibly awful infection and derailing out support in our culture to do these things that happens to most moms.

 

Sue Campbell  28:28

Yep.

 

Leighann Lovely  28:29

So I threw in my white flag. And I said, one month is I feel as a success, and I was happy with that. And so I had no feelings of I failed. I actually felt like one month was a great achievement.

 

Amy Beacom  28:46

So in our culture, it is yes, it's fantastic.

 

Leighann Lovely  28:49

So by the time I went back to work, I didn't I didn't need to. And I did take my full three months, and I had no guilt over it. I had a I had a good employer who was like yep, take your time. And then I was one of the lucky ones that never had to do the daycare I never had to do but I if I would have had to do daycare, I mean I I can understand how parents are are just so nervous and nerve wracking about I'm dropping my child off with a stranger and then I'm gonna go to a job and can't check in or I'm not able to you know, I just I completely get it I completely and totally understand I was one of the lucky ones that didn't have to do that. I had family members who but I forgot my point I got stuck on the word mastitis and couldn't remember. Um, however, I also now work in an environment where my daughter regularly shows up at my office and hangs around and everybody comes running out and I want to play with her I want to play with Skylar. I'm like, oh my god, this is insane. We have Netflix on our TV. So that The kids just show up they can, they can sit and watch. So we have an extremely kid friendly environment at my office. So I'm just not used to having conversations about what Wait, what do you mean, you don't talk about your kids? What do you mean, you don't, that it's not acceptable? Because my employer is just one of those employers that let me preface this, my boss has four children. So I guess he gets it, you know, he gets it. Yeah. So to have a company. And he also hired our office manager while she was pregnant. Knowing that shortly after she, you know, came on, she was going to be taking maternity leave.

 

Amy Beacom  30:46

And think about the message that sends to your, all the employees in your organization, right, just that choice to hire someone he paid, or not he by your organization paid for that leaves, I'm assuming you're in a state that doesn't have paid leave. And Wisconsin doesn't. That message, you could not pay a communications team, that amount of money that that salary equated to, to send the message to your employees that they matter, and that they matter throughout their life events? Like, you can't pay enough for that message. Anyway, that's I, I just wish more managers would understand that.

 

Leighann Lovely  31:28

Right? I mean, it's just it's, and again, I know that there's, you know, out there, you can't discriminate, oh, you find out somebody's pregnancy, choose not to hire, that's discrimination. But come on, I live in breathe and the hiring and firing industry, I'm in the staffing industry, you can find any reason from here until, you know, to not hire somebody, it doesn't have to be that. The point being is that I have been lucky to always see the really good side to hear some of the the negative side of how some of these people, men and women alike, are discriminated against because of family because of kids.

 

Amy Beacom  32:12

Most of these people, right? It is jority in this country still. Yeah. And and the ones that are doing it well are the outliers, and they need to be more vocal about more visible about how they're doing it, because other companies did. They don't think it's possible. And then we were like, yes, it is and not just possible, it is the best ROI you're gonna have.

 

Leighann Lovely  32:43

Right? Right. And, and obviously, you know, I talk nonstop about creating a great culture at a company and this is 100%, all about creating that great culture. Now, I want to shift this a little bit. It started out as maternity leave, which is 100% focused on women. When When did it become parental leave? And have you seen men finally standing up saying, Hey, why can't I take the time that just because my body didn't go through it? Why don't I get the opportunity to bond with my child?

 

Amy Beacom  33:21

I'll just say real quickly, it started as maternity leave, because that's where my focus and attention was, as soon as I started to dig into what actually matters and what is going to make this better for the women in this country. It it shifted to include dads. And so what we now know and what research has shown is until we have equal leaves for dads and moms, moms will continue to be penalized for taking leave. And so when the when the floor expectation is no matter who becomes a parent or how they all take a minimum of three months of leave, that then becomes the standard, nobody's penalized. It's just the way that we do things. If it's inequitable across gender or type of family way you become a family, job role, length of employment and accompany you know all of those pieces. If if that is not equal, there will be inequities. So do you want to add to that?

 

Sue Campbell  34:35

Yeah, I think that's just a great point. It's not even just moms and dads. It's also any type of family formation gay couples, gender nonconforming folks, right. As we look at that dei lens, we really need to apply that to the parental leave timeframe to and we've seen so many businesses come to us for a policy help and they have good intentions. They just haven't thought enough. Big Picture about it. So they would have, you know, birthing parent gets this much non birthing parent gets this much. But what if you have two non birthing parents because they have adopted a child do they not get as much bonding leave with their child like, this just doesn't make sense. And it needs to be equitable for any type of family, any type of family formation, because it is good for the parent, it's good for the child, it's good for the organization, if someone's mind is off with their kid, because they had to come back to work way too early, that they're not providing as much value for your company as they could be. Right, we just need to really, really widen the lens on this issue and think in terms of what we want our long term outcome to be. And that's always to retain good employees. And the retain way you retain good employees is by letting them know that they're supported and valued, and they can get their personal needs met as well as their professional needs.

 

Leighann Lovely  35:57

I've never thought of it that way. And I do hear regularly that the birthing parents gets X amount and the non birthing parent gets that but you don't. And perfect example, grandparents, and grandparents don't necessarily have to be of non working age grandparents ended up with sad, you know, child, for whatever reason, it might be, if that becomes a new family dynamic, you would think that, you know, hey, it takes some time for that child to possibly become, you know, transition into a new, this becomes a new family. I mean, so how would that take? You know, can you fall into that, and there's many different ways that families can be formed and.

 

Amy Beacom  36:44

And we encourage the broadest definitions possible, we're, we're the Center for parental leave leadership of what we're doing is family leave. So if that's kinship leave, if that's caregiving leave, you know, that is where we would want organizations to get to, we just focus in on the parental leave timeframe, because it's the most common, it's the most understood 80% of employees, at some point become parents. It's a, you know, it's a it's a good opportunity.

 

Sue Campbell  37:18

Yeah, and it sets the organization up so well, right, Amy was saying, this is an experiential learning opportunity that your company can use to its full advantage, or it can shoot itself in the foot, right. So you if you know what to do for parental leave, you know what to do when someone has to go out on a family leave, or someone has to go care for an aging parent, right, all of the same tools and concepts of our 10 touch points that we cover in the book apply to any type of leave.

 

Leighann Lovely  37:47

That completely makes sense. Again, families form in so many different ways. And you shouldn't penalize one family because of the way that that family formed. Exactly. Just because you are the one that births that child, whether that be a month, three months, it's still about bonding, it's not necessarily about the recovery, because the recovery comes with. And again, I what I think that when I had my child, and I keep going back to because we all pull for my own our own experience. Within a week, my husband was back at work, because that was his, his company policy, he had to take vacation, it was his vacation in order for him to stay home, he was back at work within a week. So regardless of the fact that I had a C section, I still had to be on my feet by myself, and capable of taking care of that child by myself. So

 

Amy Beacom  38:43

Oh my gosh, it's just too common. I and I just have to let out some outrage around that. Because you say it in as everyone does in this country as if that's normal. And it is not normal. That is a massive abdominal surgery, you're recovering from a tiny human that you are fully responsible for. And you're having you're supposed to be doing it all at once. Like it's outrageous that that is the way we are set up in our country. And I think when you said a second ago, we all pull from our own experience. We also normalize our own experiences. And so I just would encourage your listeners to just step out of that for a second and two ways one to just notice. Is that the way it should be there is a moral piece to this, you know, there is a an element of that. But also, there's very few things in our life where both can be true. It can be a good thing to do a human thing to do and a wise business thing to do. This is one of those places. And then when we all pull from our own experience recognize that either If you're a person going through leave yourself, or you are somebody who's managing it or interacting with it, those are you're just trying to put yourself into the other people's shoes for a little while, ask them about it. How is this going for you is, are there things we could do to help make this easier? What can we do to help improve this experience for you, you are not supposed to know what that other person's going through without training, conversation, communication and understanding. And I so often we talk with managers or new parents who are like, while they're doing their thing, I don't want to interrupt or if I say something, I'm going to say the wrong thing and hurt their feelings, or, you know, those kinds of pieces. And a lot of our work is pure communication skills. How? Anyway, I'm just going on a little bit of a tangent there. I love Yeah, but it just to pull from our own experiences.

 

Leighann Lovely  41:09

You're right, and whether that's right or wrong. And, and I totally agreed that because I remember my husband saying, you know, two days before he had to go back to work, he says, You're gonna have to stop taking your pain medication. Before I go back, because, you know, you, you fall asleep, like, right after you take it. And I'm thinking to myself, Oh, my god, how am I gonna? How am I going to stand up, you know, and walk around without taking this medication. But that is the reality for so many, for so many people. And remember, my daughter's only four. So, you know, many of my listeners, I you know, I mentioned my daughter occasionally because she's insane. She's for the need for Eurostar. Um, but that is that is, you know, the reality is that, you know, for so many people.

 

Amy Beacom  41:59

I don't want to make any assumptions about your relationship. But I will say broadly, when we set it up that a dad is going back to work one week after his wife gives birth, that sets up home dynamics where that mom is the primary caregiver to use that term. But usually the sole caregiver with some dad helping in quotes or dad's babysitting in quotes. And that is not a sustainable way to set up a two parent partnership where both parents are working. It doesn't, it's just not. So just from a purely practical standpoint, we need to give equal length of leave so that both parents are equally set up to be equal caregivers at home, equal employees at work. And it's just the way we do things, right.

 

Leighann Lovely  42:52

Yep. And, and now, he only works. He works three days a week, I shouldn't say only he works 312 hours. So he's home with her by himself, Thursdays and Fridays, which you can see the stress on his face when I walk in. So you know, he is definitely, definitely a full time dad full time work full time, everything. Same with me, you know, you're right. It definitely sets that precedence early on as Mom's going to be the, you know, full time worker, it's going to be, you know, the the sole caregiver. It's. So I think that what you guys do is is absolutely amazing. And we, yeah, I mean, we need we need to have a change, we need to have a shift, we need to make sure that companies understand what's important. And we have seen this so much over the last couple of years, that people are starting to finally stand up for what they want. And they're telling companies that, hey, I mean, I remember going into an interview and saying, Look, I want to work here, but I need you to know right up front, that the most important thing to me is my family. I come to work so that I can I can live to be with my family. I don't I don't live to work. I mean, that is that is the way that I look at it. Now do I love what I do? Absolutely. I love my job. I love my professional life. But there is definitely a point in which I will shut down my computer and say now it's family time. And I think the world needs to look at it that way. And companies who are figuring that out where the importance is and if they allow them to have those moments and help them have that time with their family and be successful as parents, they will do and work harder at those companies.

 

Sue Campbell  44:47

Absolutely. So there's there's nothing to lose. There is literally nothing to lose by supporting your working parents. Well there is every thing to gain. And it's just that really short sighted thinking, because we've been thinking a certain way, this is the way things have been done for a very long time, right. That's part of our message of getting the book out and doing I don't know, we've done like, over 100 podcasts since the book came out last September, because we want to get the word out of like, there is a way to do this that you can step into, we already figured so much of this out, and you can benefit it with a very low cost, and a very high ROI. You can retain employees, you can make them more effective, you can make them happier. And in the process, you can make us a stronger society, because we'll have stronger families.

 

Leighann Lovely  45:43

Yeah. So we are coming.

 

Amy Beacom  45:46

I was just gonna say on on Sue's point, the book also has a whole host of resources that we use in our work that we've offered up for free with within it, there's a link in it, that it action planning templates, templates for leave planning, reflection, workbooks, manager checklists, there's so many resources in there. Because our goal is to change the way our society does this. And you were saying a second ago, Liam, that we need to change it. We are in the midst of it as a country. And I think that the only people slow to catch on are the corporation, right? It's the people already are there that are having children right now, the ones who are older, who maybe had my age children, they don't really understand that the expectation has shifted. This isn't about an organization allowing their employee to have the this is an expectation, that's a floor, they expect it. It is about how they support around it. So yeah, I just wanted to underscore that.

 

Leighann Lovely  47:03

Well, excellent, we are coming to time. So I'm going to ask both of you to answer the question of the season. And just so you guys know, I will be putting your contact information in the show notes so that people if they want to reach out to you, if they want to get a copy of your book, I will put a link to where they can do that. So you know, if anybody's interested in reaching out, they can also find you, I know that you have a Facebook page, if you want to, you know, give a shout out to where they can reach out to please do so. But before we do that question of the season. Sue, why don't you go first, if you could go back to your younger self and give yourself advice. When would you go back? And what advice would you give yourself?

 

Sue Campbell  47:50

I think I would go back to when I was pregnant with my first child. And I would just say girl, you have so many more choices than you think you have right now. Right? Like everything feels very binary. And especially when we're going through something for the first time we're waiting for someone to tell us what we can have and what we can do, right and what like how this all works. And in this country right now, because there is a bit of a vacuum around this, you have a lot more power and choice than you think you have. And you can use it in a way that it's going to benefit everyone.

 

Leighann Lovely  48:24

Excellent. And what about you, Amy?

 

Amy Beacom  48:27

That question is making me emotional. Yeah, I was thinking what Sue said, right that that going back and really saying think outside the box lady, because this world that you've created, where it's right here, in this little square walls, isn't it? There's so much more. But I think instead I would go back to me when I had my son 15 and a half years ago and tell myself this, too shall pass. That what you are going through little young Amy with postpartum depression and horrible breastfeeding issues and not understanding that your career can survive. This will turn into something that will help change countless people's lives in this country. And then every tear and heartache that you persevere through will be worth it.

 

Leighann Lovely  49:29

That's amazing. Thank you for sharing that. I want to thank you both for taking the time to talk with me. It has been such an amazing opportunity to talk to two brilliant women in about such an important topic. So thank you both so much for your time.

 

Amy Beacom  49:48

Worse. Can I say one last thing?

 

Leighann Lovely  49:52

Absolutely

 

Sue Campbell  49:55

Classic Amy

 

Amy Beacom  50:00

Well, what I said to my younger self make reminded me perinatal mental health is such a huge part of this timeframe. And what we do and one of our partner organizations is Postpartum Support International. So if anyone is listening here, who is either within an organization or experiencing that themselves, please reach out that we can put you in touch, they can put you in touch. One of the things we do in our coaching work is we do have the first perinatal mental health screening to be used in a workplace setting. So we're bringing that conversation and normalizing mental health within workplaces. And I just think that is an incredibly important thing for your listeners to understand and and then in terms of your question earlier about where to follow, we're on all the socials, Instagram, Facebook, LinkedIn,

 

Sue Campbell  50:49

The best thing to do is to sign up for the email list. And that way, you'll get all of the latest stuff, whereas social you're going to miss it because you know, they're gonna screen it and you're not going to see it on the email list, if you want the good CPL leadership.com and you'll get a prompt to join the email list.

 

Leighann Lovely  51:12

Perfect and I will like I said, I will put that in the show notes so that it is easily found. Thank you again for listening to Let's Talk HR. I appreciate your time and support. Without you the audience this would not be possible. So don't forget that if you enjoyed this episode, to follow us, like us or share us. Have a wonderful day.

 

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Transcribed by https://otter.ai

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SUMMARY KEYWORDS

parents, parental leave, child, organization, transition, people, companies, amy, support, book, leave, coaching, birthing, country, family, sue, women, employees, policy, understand