World Mental Health Day is observed every year on October 10, with the overall objective of raising awareness of mental health issues around the world. Mark Goldstein, partner chair of Reed Smith’s Mental Health Task Force, talks powerfully about challenging the stigma associated with mental health. Joined by hosts John Iino and Iveliz Crespo, Mark shares his personal experience with mental health symptoms and describes strategies companies can use to cultivate psychological wellness and encourage h...
World Mental Health Day is observed every year on October 10, with the overall objective of raising awareness of mental health issues around the world. Mark Goldstein, partner chair of Reed Smith’s Mental Health Task Force, talks powerfully about challenging the stigma associated with mental health. Joined by hosts John Iino and Iveliz Crespo, Mark shares his personal experience with mental health symptoms and describes strategies companies can use to cultivate psychological wellness and encourage help-seeking behaviors.
For more information, please visit Reed Smith's Diversity & Inclusion page.
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Transcript:
Intro: Hi, I'm John Iino and I'm Iveliz Crespo. Welcome to the Reed Smith podcast Inclusivity Included: Powerful Personal Stories. In each episode of this podcast, our guests will share their personal stories, passions and challenges, past and present, all with a goal of bringing people together and learning more about others. You might be surprised by what we all have in common, inclusivity included.
John: Hey, everyone. Welcome to the podcast. Hey, Iveliz, how's it going?
Iveliz: Hi, John. I'm doing well. How are you?
John: Fantastic. So today we have a special guest, our partner, Mark Goldstein. Mark is a partner in our New York office and specializes in employment and labor matters, but maybe more even more significantly in February of 2019. Uh Mark published an article in the American Lawyer, really chronicling his journey with mental health disabilities and in particular severe depression, obsessive compulsive disorder and anxiety. After the publication of that article, literally without exaggeration, the response was amazing. And later that year, Mark helped form Reed Smith's Mental Health task Force whose mission is to ensure that our lawyers and professional staff get the assistance they need to confront mental health and substance use issues and the challenge of stigma surrounding some of those issues. The goal of the mental health task force is to cultivate a workplace that promotes psychological wellness and encourages help seeking behavior. Hey Mark, welcome to the podcast.
Mark: Hey John. Good to be here. Thanks so much for having me.
John: Absolutely. So if you could please share with our audience your personal journey and what led you to publishing that article in the American Lawyer and your journey in the time that it's followed?
Mark: Sure. Uh Absolutely. Again, thank you for having me on and for this opportunity. It was a little bit more than three years ago, Labor Day Weekend of 2017, that changed, you know, I would, I would say the course of my life uh forever. And what rapidly happened was the onset or, or the exacerbation of of those three mental health uh disability. And it's taken me a long time to call them disabilities, mental health issues, but they are exactly that. Um And it, it was severe depression, as you said, OCD or obsessive compulsive disorder and generalized anxiety. And perhaps I had suffered from them uh my entire life. It's entirely possible and probably likely, but I didn't really have any manifestations of them that impeded my ability as a person until that Labor Day weekend. And very quickly, you know, for lack of a better phrase, I just fell into a very dark place. One of the things that happened was, uh, the OCD took over and I became obsessive about checking emails and documents and most attorneys are, are somewhat obsessive to an extent. But what I mean is that I went back over to every matter I had ever handled at the firm and I looked through every email that I had ever sent or received and every document I had drafted and what was I looking for? I was looking for some instance of malpractice. Not because I had anybody had accused me of malpractice, not because I thought I had committed malpractice. But I became so obsessed with this and I would look over a settlement agreement that had been drafted five years earlier and I would wonder whether or not I had drafted the assignment clause correctly. Things that couldn't have mattered any less. But nevertheless, I, I became obsessed with this and I started lying about it in particular often at night, I wake up at 2, 3 in the morning and I would go upstairs for three hours, four hours and look over again emails and documents for a particular matter. Um, but I would tell my wife that, you know, oh, don't worry, I'm just going to get a glass of water downstairs and then I would sneak down before she would wake up. I got to the point in my, both my professional personal lives where I, I was not functioning, you know, it, it would be under exaggeration to say I wasn't functioning as I wanted. I wasn't a present as a father, present as a husband. When I was at work. Most of the time I spent Reed Smith, uh, the New York office has a wellness room and I spent most of my time having panic attacks in there just trying to breathe through them. When I could stomach being in my office, I would go through these obsessive tendencies again. So I wasn't being productive as personally or professionally. And I realized after maybe four or five weeks that if I didn't make some sort of change, this was going to be, I was going down a very dark path. At the time I didn't contemplate suicide or anything along those lines and, and I didn't even think about that or it hasn't been until, you know, the past few years, meeting other people who have been affected. You know, often family members have been affected by mental health issues and understanding the, the, you know, the, the devastating, including, you know, fatal effects, the mental health issues can have that. I even, you know, understood that part of it. I thankfully did not have any suicidal tendencies or thoughts, but I didn't think I was gonna make it to 2018. I, I just didn't see any way and, you know, I realized that I wasn't, not only was I not going to attain my, my personal goals and be the father and husband that I wanted to be, but I wasn't gonna obtain my professional goals either. I, I was never gonna make it to make partner at Reed Smith. I was never going to be the lawyer that I wanted to be if I didn't make some sort of change. So with that, I decided that I was going to take a leave of absence and I went to our firm's HR team was extremely supportive as was everybody in my group and within the firm. And I said, look, I need some time off. I said, I don't know when I'm gonna be back. Frankly, I don't know if I'm gonna be back. I just need some time off and, and my, my leave started on October 17th of 2017. And I truly didn't think I'd ever practice law again. But what transpired over what it ended up being the next 11 weeks was really a transformative experience. For me, it involved different forms of therapy, traditional psychology. In addition to cognitive behavioral therapy, I also was the type of person who before then would have scoffed at the idea of meditation or mindfulness. But at my wife's urging, I gave it a shot even though I was certain it would have no impact. Uh and lo and behold, uh still to this day, even yesterday, I still meditate, I still practice mindfulness. I found it to be incredibly rewarding. And, you know, I started eventually, you know, between the therapy between medication which I took last night. I'm gonna take tonight. I'll probably take for most of the rest of my life. Between the mindfulness, between meditation, you know, physical activity that I had been avoiding, uh, reconnecting with my son, between all those things. Uh, starting around early December, I started, you know, to feel like myself again and, uh I returned to the firm on January 2nd of 2018, 11 weeks of the day after I had left. And, you know, I was probably just as scared that day because, you know, it's one thing to take the leave at the time I left in October. I thought, you know what, I'm probably never gonna see any of these people again. And then I was coming back and I was seeing these people get it. Some folks knew why I had left and some folks didn't and I didn't know how I'd be received, you know, still to this day, as we know, mental health can have, you know, there could be a stigma associated with it and I didn't know if people would want me to work for them. I didn't know if, you know, people would give me assignments and, you know, I came back to the firm and within a couple of hours I was sitting down in, uh, in the office of our New York office, managing partner, who's the partner with whom I work the most. And she said, look, I've got good news and I've got bad news for you and she knew why I had been out and she said it's the same thing. We've got all the same stuff going on as when you went out. And that put me at ease right away. I, I was right back in the swing of things just picked up, but I was able to do so and, and, and practice as a lawyer with a different, I guess mindset as I had before my leave of absence. And what ultimately led me to publishing the article being open about this was over the course of that following summer, summer of ‘18, I joined LEADRS, which is our disability inclusion group. You know, as, as, as you know, John, I met some incredible people, both attorneys and and, and staff members who themselves had gone through similar issues to what I had gone through. And what impressed me was that these were many of these people were by all outward appearances, pictures of success. You wouldn't have known that they were, were struggling. And particularly for me when I was, you know, in the thick of it. In the fall of seven of 2017, I assumed that within the legal industry, I was the only one suffering. I was alone. Everybody else was functioning well. And so it opened my eyes to the fact that there were, you know, partners who had made it to the upper echelons of having a fantastic client base being well regarded. Yet they themselves had gone through, uh, or knew somebody who was going through a similar situation. And it was ultimately after talking to, um, a number of these people and realizing that I wasn't alone, but at the same time that many of them didn't feel comfortable coming forward and telling anybody their story. And certainly, you know, I respect that journey, but I wanted there to be a resource out there for when the next Mark Goldstein looked. Because when I was in that position, the fall ‘17 and I was Googling, lawyer, burnout, lawyer, depression. And I don't like the word burnout because I think it glosses over these issues. But nevertheless, when I was Googling these issues, there was really very little that came up frankly, the number one article at the time that came up was by, written by a recruiter and it said, if you're feeling burnt out, don't tell your firm, you need to suck it up. So after speaking with all these people, I knew there were people in my corner who felt the same way I did and I hoped that this would help, you know, the next person coming along. So I, I sat down one morning and I spew out a couple of 1000 words and as they say, the rest is history.
Iveliz: Mark, thank you so much for sharing your story with the world. You know, as someone who has had to navigate and PTSD for over a decade. And as someone who's had to, you know, enter a profession, legal profession that tends to exacerbate my symptoms, I can 100% relate to your story. I recall any time I would meet with clients, um I would feel this anxiety that would be debilitating, you know, any time that I would be in an adverse nature with a colleague that I would view as being overly aggressive, my fight or flight would kick in and it would make it really difficult for me to do my job. So hearing stories like, like yours, right? And, and, and seeing it on such a public stage really helped me personally, right to, to grapple with some of the own insecurities that I have regarding my mental illness. So I really, really do appreciate you sharing your story because I do think that it, it signals a beacon of hope for a lot of people who are struggling. Were you surprised by the public response that you received as a result of the article?
Mark: Yes, I, I think it would be an understatement to say yes, you know, look, I, I had a little bit of trepidation in publishing this article and that was again, same as I felt what I refer to the firm is because you don't know how people feel about these issues and particularly if you're going to write something that's available to everyone in the world, that means that clients uh are going to read this and potential clients are going to read this and other colleagues who didn't know what you went through are going to read this. And, and I had, you know, an immense amount of trepidation and I, and I certainly weighed the costs and benefits of doing this. So I just felt that I, I couldn't with a straight face and a good faith continue after having put the words down, not, you know, not published this article. And the response has surpassed mine and probably anybody's expectations. You know, the anecdote I tend to tell two anecdotes in this regard is one, you know, I got into the office early. The next morning, the article came out sometime around Valentine's Day and I got a lot of messages that afternoon. It was, it was incredible. But the next morning I got into the office early and at maybe 7, 7:30 I received a call from an appellate judge who shared with me that he had never been able to tell anybody in the judiciary that he had, he had felt a similar way and he had always felt alone and very sad that he couldn't share what he had gone through in the past. He was open, he was candid with me and I was just so stunned to hear this from a seasoned jurist and, and, and the second, you know, response, you know, or, or the second response was was from clients and potential clients. I didn't know how they'd respond and it's amazing how supportive they've been one, just one example, being general counsel for a financial institution that we do work for. You, read my article and we had a conversation after it came out. A few months later, I was speaking out in California. He and I were discussing the litigation I was handling and I told him that I was traveling for several weeks to do some, some speeches on this issue. And, you know, I'm in California. I was gonna be in Nashville here and there and, and you know, without missing a beat, literally, he just said, you know, that's great. Keep making lemonade referring to lemons and to lemonade. And I was so absolute touched by that. Those, the judges response and this attorney in-house attorneys response were emblematic of the broader response and I still get emails and phone calls to this day. I mean, it's a year and a half later, you know, I have a, an email inbox with, with the email responses I get it's well into the thousands of messages I've received it. It makes me feel, I feel on the one hand it's tough because there are so many people who are struggling. But on the other hand, it's great to let people know that they're not alone and people are, you know, feeling comfortable letting me know how, you know the situation that they are in or that a loved one is in and maybe it's helping them have a dialogue or a conversation that's needed.
John: That's fantastic advice. Fantastic work, Mark. Mark. Earlier this month, you took over as the partner chair of our Mental health task force. Tell us a little bit more about the, the mental health task force and its mission.
Mark: Sure. So I, I think there's kind of been a confluence of events that have allowed us to focus even more closely on mental health in the legal industry. Certainly, the American Bar Association has done a lot in that regard with a study that they published uh several years ago, that kind of illuminated the bigger problem. And then there's been numerous other things, Reed Smith, for instance, set up Wellness works about 3.5 years ago for uh to focus on issues like employee wellness and with all these things happening, you know, roughly 14 ish months ago, we realized that the mental health issues in our profession were getting so much attention that this would make sense to have its own inclusion group or, or subgroup. And so that's exactly what we did was to, was to set that up and it was stewarded by Kim Gold, a partner in our New York office who did a fantastic job, Kim. I moved to an in-house role and it was my honor to take, take over that. And, and we have different subgroups within the mental health task force devoted to focusing on different issues. And, and again, what's among the things that are great about the mental health task work is it's inclusive of all Reed Smith personnel, not just attorneys. And it's inclusive of folks who may not have had any experience with mental health issues themselves, but are either passionate or want to be an advocate or have family members who, who've been involved and had mental health issues. And it's, you know, it's really a tremendous outpouring we've seen in, in less than a year since the task force was actually commenced. We've had several 100 personnel from the firm join uh task force and hoping to continue to expand that it helps us the education campaign on mental health issues and particularly, you know, frankly in the pandemic when mental health issue is becoming so prevalent and even more discussed, it, it's, you know, I think it's serving as a great resource for our 3000 plus personnel who may need some support or some resources.
Iveliz: Thank you, Mark. So, Mark, I've said this before and I'll say this again. One of the biggest draws for me when I was looking at joining Reed Smith was the focus around mental health. It hadn't been something that I had previously experienced in the workplace before, particularly not so competently and with an eye towards inclusion, right, often times when these things were discussed in the past, they came with a lot of shame or, you know, they weren't necessarily framed in a way that that would drive inclusion as one of the founders of the Mental Health Task Force. Would you share with us some of the specific steps that the firm took to launch this group so that maybe perhaps other organizations could do the same?
Mark: Yeah. No, absolutely. I mean, first, it, it, it started with acknowledging what types of, of issues seem to be important to our employees, attorneys and non attorneys alike. So it appeared as 2019 went on and, and going back to 2018 with Wellness works, it appeared that this was an issue that was of interest to so many people. So, so first off, it was starting by listening to the people who were involved, for example, LEADRS, they are our disability closure group and listening to them and understanding that this is a, this is a really important issue and it deserves potentially its own group or subgroup. And then there it was, it was basically, hey, going to the firm management, hey, we've got this idea which was, you know, initially championed by Carolyn Pepper, who's one of our, our founders of LEADRS of leaders, the business inclusion group and saying we've got this idea for this sub the subgroup with LEADRS and we think it's, it's something that's going to be a resource to employees and having mentally and physically healthy employees frankly is, is good for any organization and, and you know, there's buy in immediately we were allocated budgets to, to set it up. You know, we were, there were, there were multiple calls, John was involved in some of them. You know, how can we make this as inclusive as possible? How can we make sure people feel comfortable joining? How can we make sure people know that they don't need to themselves have suffered or be suffering to join? You know, it was, it was a process that took probably a little less than six months to make sure that there was, you know, proper education initiative, set up, making sure that, you know, there was an overlap and there was a coordinate between Wellness works, which as I said, has been, I think around at the firm for about 3.5 years and, and just, just absolutely tremendous work for list of all employees making sure there was a coordinate effort between the two groups and, and really, it's just a continuation of our firm, putting its money where its mouth is and that, that's exactly what we did. What I've seen with some firms is they, they talk about a commitment to diversity inclusion, but it, it, it's just rhetoric and so this is just a further example and a further way that Reed Smith, you know, could support and has supported our folks.
Iveliz: Absolutely. Thank you, Mark, as you've mentioned, many law firms, many organizations attempt to support employee wellness through their hr department and by providing other resources, how has having a business inclusion group or, you know, employee resource group made a difference in changing the culture of our organization?
Mark: I think speaking from personal experience as it relates to LEADRS, I can tell you without doubt or hesitation, I never would have spoken up publicly if, if it was not for LEADRS and for the folks that I met with the LEADRS. So it gives you a sense of, of comfort, ability, it gives you a sense of, of companionship and that, you know, kind of we're all in the same boat together. And again, the biggest thing I hear from people when, when we talk about these issues is I feel alone. And so what Reed Smith has done is created a culture where not only do you not have to feel alone, but we'll tell you other people who have been in similar circumstances and it's not just, you know, with mental health disabilities, it's, you know, with all our inclusion groups, physical disabilities, people of color winners are, are women initiative. So that's what our firm has done is created a culture where you feel accepted and you feel like your, your differences don't, don't devalue you. In fact, they, they, they make the firm stronger and it, it helps make it a more collaborative environment.
Iveliz: Absolutely. You know, mark one of the things that I think is very true for me specifically is that I have said out loud that I have PTSD more times at this firm than I have in my entire career despite having battled PTSD for over a decade. So I definitely 100% agree that the culture here is one where these things aren't looked down upon, you know, they're accepted and you certainly don't ever feel alone or that your issues that you're facing, you know, devalue you and your worth.
John: Hey, mark, following up on that, you said you've had tremendous successes within the firm on, on a personal level and specifically what can organizations do to help remove some of the stigma association associated with seeking help? I know you said earlier that you were very anxious when you came back from your leave of absence, how the firm was going to receive you. And so specifically, how is the firm um responded and like you say, with the culture of the organization, how have you really been supported in, in your personal journey?
Mark: It started with, even before I went out, I told a few close people, close colleagues. Hey, here's, here's what I'm going through and, and to a person, everyone said, take whatever time you need, do whatever you need. We're gonna be here if and when you want to come back. And that just continued. Um after I returned, it was, you know, the HR folks that I worked with checking in on me making sure I was doing ok. You know, same with, you know, the few attorneys who knew the extent to which I've been gone. It was people who didn't know, kind of had assumptions about why I'd been out. I don't think any of them assumed it was for this. Just asking, hey, how are you doing? Is everything ok. Even though they didn't know why I've been out just a general kindness and support. Um, you know, it was, and, and that's from, you know, senior management on down, there was a couple of people in senior management who knew what I've gone through and you know, them reaching out to me and saying, hey, how's everything going? How are you doing? So again, it was, it was more than just words. I just wanted to make sure that I, you know, I felt supported, which is, you know, exactly what I felt. And then once I started talking about it more openly, I mean, I've literally heard from hundreds and hundreds of people at our firm being supportive and, and you know, saying, hey, I have a client who, you know, is looking for an ethics or coe can you come talk to them? We've done multiple of those or, hey, my daughter is going through something. Do you have five minutes to chat with me? I don't know how to talk to her. I've, I've had those conversations. It's just become a culture of, of support and positivity and I couldn't feel more welcome and more supportive than I do.
Iveliz: So mark, what do you see as the future of programs within organizations with respect to employees with mental health issues?
Mark: I, I think the most important thing is, and this is just my opinion, it is the power of personal stories because that to me and again, for meeting folks and leaders and knowing that other people have gone through similar things. I think that's the most likely thing to get people either themselves or a loved one to acknowledge that they have a problem and that they need treatment and treatment can mean a whole lot of things, you know, support or help can you can mean a whole lot of things. But for most people, I think acknowledging that there's that there's something going on and accepting that you need help is the most difficult thing. So when you hear from other people that they went through something and they came out the other side of the tunnel and everything worked out, okay? I think to me that's the most impactful thing. And again, without LEADRS, meeting people who they weren't, it wasn't an open forum situation, but it was we had an honest, open dialogue with the number of people that helped make me more comfortable speaking out more publicly. So I think, I think that to me is, is the future of programming in this regard. I I do think that that mindfulness and meditation type programs are important. But I think when you can, for me, I used to walk down the halls at Reed Smith and look at somebody and again and assume they could never understand what I went through. They look like they're, they're doing great from all our appearances. So hearing from somebody who has been through it and who you would never assume was struggling. I think that that really allows people, I don't wanna say the sense of comfortable, but the sense of ease to know that they're not alone.
John: And Mark's uh thinking about the future what for the mental health task force what upcoming events does the group have planned?
Mark: Yes. So we have uh a number of great events planned for actually later this month and then early next year, we're still finalizing the specifics for early next year. But I want there to be a every month type of event and even in a virtual workspace and a workplace, whether it's somebody, you know, somebody who's been through something themselves speaking or uh somebody who does mindfulness specific to the legal industry. I I think these types of events are, are extremely important. I think continuing to focus as we have in particularly in the last few months on mental health. As it relates to working parents, I can speak from personal experience with a child going through virtual kindergarten right now. And that in preschool that it's been extremely difficult and it is extremely difficult what the pandemic has done in that regard. So I wanna make sure. And then the firm, Reed Smith has done a tremendous job with its uh resources for working parents. And I wanna build upon that to the mental health task force because I know having spoken to a lot of folks. Uh I, I'm certainly not alone in, in the stressors that the new school year has brought upon working parents.
John: Thanks Mark and thank you for championing mindfulness on a personal level. I look forward every day to uh morning meditation. It's just the highlights of my day um brings me joy and peace and just can't say enough about that. Thanks for joining us today, Mark and sharing your personal story, as you said. And the sharing of personal stories is a really effective way for people to identify with some of the issues and for folks to really create that culture that we're all looking to build. So again, thank you for coming in today.
Mark: Absolutely. Thank you for having me.
Iveliz: Thank you, Mark.
Mark: Thank you.
Outro: Inclusivity Included is a Reed Smith production. Our producer is Ali McCardell. This podcast is available on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google Play, Stitcher, PodBean and reedsmith.com.
Disclaimer: This podcast is provided for educational purposes. It does not constitute legal advice and is not intended to establish an attorney-client relationship nor is it intended to suggest or establish standards of care applicable to particular lawyers in any given situation. Prior results do not guarantee a similar outcome.
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