In this episode of ALPS In Brief, our Risk Manager Mark Bassingthwaighte sits down with Attorney Ann Moderie to talk about a suicide that should have never happened.
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Mark Bassingthwaighte:
Hello, I'm Mark Bassingthwaighte. Welcome to ALPS in Brief, the podcast that comes to you from the Historic Florence Building in beautiful downtown Missoula, Montana. And it's a smoky day out there today, but it's good to be back in the office in terms of the home office for a little while.
And I have a guest that is....
In this episode of ALPS In Brief, our Risk Manager Mark Bassingthwaighte sits down with Attorney Ann Moderie to talk about a suicide that should have never happened.
—
Mark Bassingthwaighte:
Hello, I'm Mark Bassingthwaighte. Welcome to ALPS in Brief, the podcast that comes to you from the Historic Florence Building in beautiful downtown Missoula, Montana. And it's a smoky day out there today, but it's good to be back in the office in terms of the home office for a little while.
And I have a guest that is... I'm very excited to share... have her share her story with you, but it's just you want to talk about a compelling, just difficult, I don't even know how to say it. I mean, I'm still swallowing what I've just heard in terms of a detailed presentation on what she's doing. So my guest is Ann Moderie... Modera.
Ann Moderie:
Moderie.
Mark Bassingthwaighte:
Moderie. I'm so sorry, Ann.
Ann Moderie:
It's okay.
Mark Bassingthwaighte:
Bassingthwaighte gets mixed up. Yes. So, but Ann, can you... before we jump into your story, can you just share a little bit about yourself and what you do?
Ann Moderie:
Sure. And thank you for having me, Mark. I am a Montana attorney. I have been practicing for about 25 years. I have practiced out of Polson, Montana, which is on Flathead Lake for that entire time.
I practiced with my father for 14 years, and when he became district court judge, I went out on my own, and I've been out on my own since that time. I have handled primarily civil cases, mostly litigation, over the years. I recently have inherited a lawyer's practice who passed away who did a lot of estate planning and probate.
Mark Bassingthwaighte:
Wow. Okay.
Ann Moderie:
So I'm transitioning a little bit in the last couple of years, not as much litigation, but always on the plaintiff's side. I have tried to dedicate myself to helping victims, whether it's an unfortunate accident or intentional conduct, but I think there's a real need for attorneys that are willing to get in the fight.
Mark Bassingthwaighte:
Yes. And you have fought an incredible battle. I just finished hearing a presentation that Ann gave that really focused on a first case.
Ann Moderie:
Yeah.
Mark Bassingthwaighte:
And it's not your first, or is this your...
Ann Moderie:
Oh gosh, no.
Mark Bassingthwaighte:
Yeah.
Ann Moderie:
I've been practicing since 1999.
Mark Bassingthwaighte:
Right.
Ann Moderie:
And this case came into our firm in 2005.
Mark Bassingthwaighte:
But it's the first case of an interesting story. So, Ann, I just invite you, have at it, share what happened and what this is all about.
Ann Moderie:
Well, and I will tell the story, but I think it's important to point out that I was one attorney in a team that tackled-
Mark Bassingthwaighte:
Yes.
Ann Moderie:
... this issue and these type of cases. So I don't mean to stand out as anyone that handled them by myself. But how I first became introduced to the troubled teen industry, and these are specialty boarding schools for, quote, troubled teens, and sometimes they're called tough love schools. They're a type of school that has its own behavior modification model that is kind of almost like a military-type setting. It's very rigid, very strict. And I didn't even know these schools existed.
Mark Bassingthwaighte:
I didn't either until today.
Ann Moderie:
Yeah.
Mark Bassingthwaighte:
I mean, this is...
Ann Moderie:
It's under the radar.
Mark Bassingthwaighte:
Yeah.
Ann Moderie:
But back in 2005, a case came into our office related to the suicide of a 16-year-old girl at one of these specialty boarding schools. And the school was located in Thompson Falls, Montana, which is in Sanders County, which is a nearby county.
Mark Bassingthwaighte:
Yes.
Ann Moderie:
These... I had no idea this was in our backyard. But the school was a boarding school, mostly for out-of-state students. They are placed there because they are struggling at home, whether it's drugs, alcohol, running away, getting in trouble. Parents would send them to this school as kind of an answer really to the struggles they're having or their concern about their children's safety. And these schools represent to the parents that they are the answer that they are going to change your kids' lives. They're going to turn them around.
And the mother contacted us because her daughter committed suicide at this school called Spring Creek Lodge. And we didn't morally... Suicide cases are difficult, so we really wanted to get the records and study them before we agreed to take it. The mother had access to all of her school records. So the mother got them, presented them to us, and we were mortified with what we saw. The notice that the staff had of this young woman hurting herself was unbelievable. We found 152 instances over six months-
Mark Bassingthwaighte:
That is just crazy.
Ann Moderie:
... where there was clear intent to kill herself-
Mark Bassingthwaighte:
Right.
Ann Moderie:
... including statements that, "I want to die." She was cutting. She was crying. She was begging for help. She was acting out physically to staff. She tried running away. She tried hanging herself from her bunk. This was a girl who was struggling, and we felt comfortable with the records that we had that we should pursue this. And these people that ran this should be held accountable.
And it's important to understand this girl's history. She was adopted at birth. Her adopted dad died when she was just a toddler. And then it was just her and her mom against the world. They were close. They had a great... They were very connected with their lives. The mother ran a furniture store. She had her desk, and then she had a little tiny desk next to her where her daughter-
Mark Bassingthwaighte:
Oh, my gosh. Yeah.
Ann Moderie:
... would work with her. It's pretty neat story actually because they had each other and that's about it. And when this girl got into her teenage years, she started acting out. She started sneaking out. She wasn't involved in hard drugs, but she started experimenting with substances. The mother was very scared.
She didn't know how to rein her in. She didn't want her to rebel more. She was scared where this could go. And I think you have to step back and look at the people who send their kids there. These schools cost anywhere from 3,500 a month to 5,000 a month. So they are parents who can afford-
Mark Bassingthwaighte:
Right. Yes.
Ann Moderie:
... this kind of care for their children. And if you look at that type of family, boarding schools are not considered a bad thing. I mean, they're very actually elite.
Mark Bassingthwaighte:
Yes.
Ann Moderie:
If you can afford to send your child to a boarding school, my goodness, that is a wonderful opportunity.
Mark Bassingthwaighte:
Right.
Ann Moderie:
So sending a girl to a boarding school, while some, it rubs them the wrong way, in other ways, it's not unusual for this family from their world.
Mark Bassingthwaighte:
Right.
Ann Moderie:
So she goes to... Oh, and one more thing about Karlye is she had a learning disability. It was diagnosed. She attended a school specifically designed for people with learning issues, but she was doing real good in school. That wasn't actually a problem in the program that she was in.
The mother went to an educational consultant with her concerns. What should she do? And it was encouraged or advised that she send her to a specialty boarding school where she could be monitored, kept safe while still addressing her learning disability. And she was referred to a New Mexico boarding school. The mother looked into it. She talked to everyone. It seemed to be a good fit.
They had a special education program. She sent her there. And within a short period, this girl ran away and took pills. And the school said, "We are not designed for the care for someone with these concerns or issues." And they sent her home. I mean, the school did the right thing.
Mark Bassingthwaighte:
Right, exactly.
Ann Moderie:
"We're not designed." So she goes home, and the mother's frantic at this point. She doesn't know if she's going to hurt herself if she's going to sneak out and get hurt. She goes back to an educational consultant, and they refer her to what is called Teen Help. It's represented to be a nonprofit referral resource for parents whose children are exhibiting certain types of behavior.
And Teen Help has telemarketers really, when you call in that have a script. We got the scripts that have... They say certain things to pique the parents' fear. "It sounds like you're... you need immediate help. The child, the longer you let it go, the further they're going to go away." One script we found partway through the script, it says to the telemarketer, "MAXIMIZE PROBLEMS" in all caps. They are designed, this company is designed to prey on the fears of parents.
Mark Bassingthwaighte:
Exactly. Yes. Yeah.
Ann Moderie:
So she listens-
Mark Bassingthwaighte:
It's social engineering is what I'm hearing.
Ann Moderie:
Oh, yeah. It's very smart, actually. And they give her all these statistics. "Within 24 hours, this many children will commit... will try to commit suicide." I mean, they're just talking to exactly what she's fearful of. And they say, "We're a non-profit. We don't get anything by these referrals. We don't have any connection to these schools.
But we think we have found just the school for your daughter. It's Spring Creek Lodge in Montana, and here are the pictures." It's a beautiful mountain setting. Well-maintained lodges. It looks gorgeous. They have pictures of kids boating and hiking, horseback riding. They show kids at computers. They represented that they have a special education program, 24-hour monitoring, therapy for the kids.
Mark Bassingthwaighte:
This sounds like a prayer...
Ann Moderie:
Oh, [inaudible 00:10:29]-
Mark Bassingthwaighte:
... an answer to a prayer for a parent.
Ann Moderie:
Oh, absolutely.
Mark Bassingthwaighte:
Yeah. Yeah.
Ann Moderie:
It sounds... And especially a parent, we've all been there. We have kids who are struggling. I get it.
Mark Bassingthwaighte:
I do too.
Ann Moderie:
So it sounds like a perfect fit for her. And the program, though, requires a commitment letter to be written and signed by the mother committing to this program. They also ask the parent to prepare honesty reports about the child. "Has this child ever been dishonest? Have they ever been manipulative?" Well, what teenager hasn't?
Mark Bassingthwaighte:
Yeah.
Ann Moderie:
But they keep that in the child's file, and they tell the parent that, "It's going to be strict. They're going to want to come home. They're going to want to manipulate you but stick to the program. We have a record of success. 15,000 students... children, we have been successfully turned their life around."
Mark Bassingthwaighte:
Right.
Ann Moderie:
It sounds great. So the mother does everything that they ask for. She signs a contract. She's going to pay $3,500 a month. She writes a report about her daughter. She agrees to go to seminars. There are seminars that parents have to fly to and attend-
Mark Bassingthwaighte:
Oh, okay. Yes.
Ann Moderie:
... that are kind of a educational this is how you be a better parent type of thing. She agrees to it all, and she sends her daughter off. And the conditions at the school are not like the pictures.
Mark Bassingthwaighte:
Right.
Ann Moderie:
At the time this young woman was going there, there were approximately 500 kids going to this school.
Mark Bassingthwaighte:
Oh my gosh.
Ann Moderie:
There were kids sleeping on mattresses on the floor because they didn't have the room for them.
Mark Bassingthwaighte:
Right.
Ann Moderie:
But we later found out that this school is part of a network of worldwide schools. And some of those schools were getting closed down by government agencies and they were taking the overflow. So that's why it was overcrowded. Lice was rampant. Kids would've complained they didn't have enough food. And they told the family that, "This is a level system. You start at level one with zero points.
And as you do good things and accomplish certain tasks, you gain points. And if you gain enough points, you go to level two through level six. And at level six, you can graduate." And average time it takes to graduate is a year that these kids are in these programs. On level one, you can't talk, you can't make eye contact, you can't look out the window, you can't talk to your parents. You are completely isolated socially because... until you get to level two.
Well, another part of getting past level one is you have to succeed in their educational program. Their educational program turns out to be completely self-taught. There are no teachers teaching. They put a kid on a wooden box at a wooden carrel, and they give them a workbook. They have to go through the workbook and then take a quiz at the end. And if you pass that quiz, you move on to the next subject. Well, someone with a learning disability-
Mark Bassingthwaighte:
Exactly.
Ann Moderie:
... is not...
Mark Bassingthwaighte:
They're not going to be able to do that.
Ann Moderie:
No.
Mark Bassingthwaighte:
Right.
Ann Moderie:
Of course not. Which showed right from the start, it was obvious she couldn't get past one subject. She was... And you would... there's a window above the carrels where the student sat. And if you looked out the window, you lost points. Very quickly, things dissolved. It was not good. She could not get off level one. She could not speak to her mother.
And she already went in depressed and having some suicidal ideation. And under this point system, suicide attempts or suicide talk, you lose all your points. You're punished. They also have what they call intervention rooms, which is solitary confinement. And that is a punishment for being suicidal. They put you into solitary confinement, and you can be in there for days at a time.
Mark Bassingthwaighte:
It blows me away that the consequences... You have somebody who's suicidal, and then what they do is going to make her more suicidal.
Ann Moderie:
And that's exactly what happened, Mark.
Mark Bassingthwaighte:
Yeah. [inaudible 00:14:51] gosh.
Ann Moderie:
It was painfully obvious in the record. It was just snowballing. She starts cutting. She starts trying to hang herself. It was just daily. And their response was to just keep putting her in intervention. That was their response and to take points away.
And what's most concerning too is that the mother wasn't being told about this. Her only communication came from staff. And the staff was telling her this entire time that she's being manipulative. "She's trying to work us. Don't fall for it."
Mark Bassingthwaighte:
So these are the honesty statements. They have information now that they can...
Ann Moderie:
Yeah.
Mark Bassingthwaighte:
Gotcha.
Ann Moderie:
Yeah.
Mark Bassingthwaighte:
Gotcha.
Ann Moderie:
In fact, these honesty reports come not only up in that scenario, but if children in these schools allege abuse or mistreatment, the staff will pull out the honesty reports. And they say, "Look, even their own families say they're dishonest. How can you believe this?"
Mark Bassingthwaighte:
Right.
Ann Moderie:
They're used against the kids. But at one point, Karlye's begging for therapy. And Spring Creek Lodge, interestingly, is very open to that. Come to find out, they do have a mental health facility on campus, but it's co-owned by the director of Spring Creek Lodge.
Mark Bassingthwaighte:
Of course, it is.
Ann Moderie:
Of course, it is. So they're all over that.
Mark Bassingthwaighte:
Yeah. Yep.
Ann Moderie:
They say... They contact the mother, and they say, "She's asking for therapy. We can provide it at $150 an hour. We're happy to do that." And the mother, of course, being a wonderful, loving mother, says, "Of course, I will do..."
Mark Bassingthwaighte:
Well, yes, you want to do the right thing.
Ann Moderie:
"... I will do anything to help her. Absolutely. No, any cost." And so they set her up with therapy, and she starts going to a therapist. Come to find out later, the only degree the therapist had at that time was a high school diploma. And he was charging $150 an hour to this mother.
And the therapy clinic did not have access to the school records, so that they didn't even know she was suicidal. She was going through therapy with this guy, and he was talking to her about her friends back home. And the loss of father, I mean, he didn't even know she was suicidal at that point-
Mark Bassingthwaighte:
Wow.
Ann Moderie:
... when he was giving therapy. But when... Another thing that happens when children are suicidal at this school, they not only punish them, but they put them on what's called high risk, which is more supervised.
Mark Bassingthwaighte:
Right. Gotcha.
Ann Moderie:
More supervision by parents. Every half hour, the staff has to actually sign something saying they've checked on her, which is a good thing. That part is good.
Mark Bassingthwaighte:
That is a good thing.
Ann Moderie:
Yeah.
Mark Bassingthwaighte:
Yeah.
Ann Moderie:
You can get off of high-risk status if a panel of seven staff members vote you off, none of whom have mental health training, none of whom have training in suicide risk assessment. So she was on and off high risk. They voted her off. I remember asking one staff member, "So why did you vote her off?" She was voted off high risk, I think, four days before she killed herself.
Mark Bassingthwaighte:
Yeah.
Ann Moderie:
And the staff member said, "Well, I saw her on campus, across campus, and she looked like she was smiling, and she looked happy." And it turns out she's legally blind.
Mark Bassingthwaighte:
Oh, my...
Ann Moderie:
It just gets...
Mark Bassingthwaighte:
You can't make this stuff up.
Ann Moderie:
You can't make this up. I know.
Mark Bassingthwaighte:
It just... Oh my God.
Ann Moderie:
So this is in 2004. Up to the day she kills herself, she's threatening suicide. They lose track of her for an hour. She goes into a bathroom stall, and she hangs herself. And two staff members found her, panicked, and ran. They brought other staff members back. They took her down, and she was still breathing-
Mark Bassingthwaighte:
[inaudible 00:18:32].
Ann Moderie:
... but no one had CPR training. They didn't know how to help her. And she died in the helicopter on the way-
Mark Bassingthwaighte:
Oh, my gosh.
Ann Moderie:
... to the hospital.
Mark Bassingthwaighte:
This is a crazy story.
Ann Moderie:
It's painful to hear. It's painful to tell.
Mark Bassingthwaighte:
Yeah.
Ann Moderie:
So that's how we got involved in trying to hold this school and the directors accountable. But what we found in this case is that this is a small part of a major operation. There is what is called the World Wide Association of Specialty Programs and Schools. It's called WWASP.
Mark Bassingthwaighte:
Okay.
Ann Moderie:
And it's a network of schools... Well, they call them schools. They're programs across the whole world. They have them worldwide. And you start looking at how they all follow the same model, behavior modification model. All the schools have to enter into contracts with the same companies. These companies take a third of the profit off the top. So this is millions that these companies are making.
Mark Bassingthwaighte:
Right. Yeah.
Ann Moderie:
And if you dig through all of these companies, the layers and layers of ownership, it seems to all flow down to the same group of individuals who are located in Utah and who are the founders of this network of schools. And that's who we concentrated on at the end is because that's where the money was going.
Mark Bassingthwaighte:
Yeah.
Ann Moderie:
So it resulted in settlements with some of the defendants early on. It resulted in a three-week trial. It was... And that led to other cases against this same school or being... There were other schools in Montana. I think I recently heard that there's, I think, 72 schools right now in Montana of this... Not WWASP schools, but just specialty boarding schools.
Mark Bassingthwaighte:
Okay.
Ann Moderie:
I think that that's what I heard.
Mark Bassingthwaighte:
All right.
Ann Moderie:
But they have largely been unregulated. There's no federal regulation of these schools. It's left to the states. And in Montana, there was no regulation, or true regulation, until 2019. And in 2019, a law was passed that provided for these schools to be under the regulation of the Montana Department of Health and Human Services after there was a lot of press about these schools, and that has had some positive effects.
There has been some closures, investigations, and I'm grateful that we're inching towards that. But for those of us that work in this school, they... in this field, that we know that there needs to be much more done because the people that were running Spring Creek Lodge, they're involved in these other schools in Montana. There's been allegations of abuse or misconduct. The problem is still there. A little bit of regulations are not enough. What we want is federal regulation. That's our goal.
Mark Bassingthwaighte:
The ultimate goal. Okay.
Ann Moderie:
Yeah. And the more we talk about it, the closer we can get to that goal.
Mark Bassingthwaighte:
Right. Right.
Ann Moderie:
And that is where this Netflix documentary called The Program comes in is a former student of one of these schools did a documentary. She is a filmmaker out of LA, former student. And she put together this documentary on these schools and specifically WWASP and did an amazing job. She very talented young woman.
Took a lot of courage because she's been taking the heat since then. But I was asked to participate in this program... the program, this documentary, which I did, and I was happy to do so. And we are hoping that this will have some positive effect. And just getting the word out is something.
Mark Bassingthwaighte:
I want to make sure, folks, that you are clear. So there is, as a result of this case, other people have become aware. And this... A past student at one of these schools has filmed that they've created this series on Netflix, and it is called The Program, right.
Ann Moderie:
Yes.
Mark Bassingthwaighte:
So if that's a show, it's a show I got to go look at.
Ann Moderie:
Yeah.
Mark Bassingthwaighte:
I just... Again, I've had no idea. But I want to make sure all of you listening are aware of what to look for as well. Why... You got involved in this, I guess. And you've had some success changing the law here in Montana. Have you been involved in any other matters with any of these schools? Is this a practice area that you continue in-
Ann Moderie:
Well...
Mark Bassingthwaighte:
... to some degree?
Ann Moderie:
Yes. I've had... I've been personally involved in two other cases. The other one was a case against... another case against Spring Creek Lodge.
Mark Bassingthwaighte:
Okay.
Ann Moderie:
I was involved in another case against another facility. And then I have been acted as a consultant on several other cases that are dealing with these same entities or their same individuals. The school, Spring Creek Lodge, closed in 2009.
Mark Bassingthwaighte:
As a result of these legal [inaudible 00:23:53]-
Ann Moderie:
Well, I think they were in legal trouble. They were having these issues and bad press. But I think the economy at that time might have had something to do with the two because this was the recession.
And to be honest, I think that the recession had a lot to do with these closures. And WWASP is no longer in effect. But as I understand it, the people involved in these companies are still involved in the field but just under different names or under different capacities.
Mark Bassingthwaighte:
They kind of just disappear but regrow somewhere else in a different name. But everything... They're still going full bore, is what I'm hearing.
Ann Moderie:
That's my understanding.
Mark Bassingthwaighte:
Yeah. Yeah.
Ann Moderie:
Yeah, unfortunately.
Mark Bassingthwaighte:
Why do you like... Why is it important to you to talk about this?
Ann Moderie:
I feel like the more we talk about it, the closer we are to change.
Mark Bassingthwaighte:
Okay.
Ann Moderie:
Because the lawsuits haven't necessarily stopped them.
Mark Bassingthwaighte:
Yeah. Yeah.
Ann Moderie:
Bad press. They know how to handle bad press. They're skilled media. They have media point consultants... professional consultants. I feel like the stories are what captures people. And that's why the documentary, I think, is so well done.
And she interviews and has [inaudible 00:25:20] former students participate and say what their experience was like and then what effect it's had on their lives. And I feel like I didn't even know about it. I didn't even know this existed. But we're making some headway. People are starting to learn about it. And even if it doesn't result in a successful lawsuit, if it prevents one parent from sending a child-
Mark Bassingthwaighte:
Yes, of course.
Ann Moderie:
... I've done my job.
Mark Bassingthwaighte:
Yeah. Yeah. Are there things that you think others, primarily all of us in the legal profession, could do here?
Ann Moderie:
I think being open to cases when they come into your office. I think at least taking a close look at these cases, even if it's not something that you generally handle, hearing these kids out and being open to it. I know that I have been contacted since this documentary came out by many past students, but we have statute of limitations issues. The school closed in 2009.
Mark Bassingthwaighte:
Okay. Right.
Ann Moderie:
The kids... Statute of limitations starts running when they turn 18 unless there was some kind of... they didn't realize there was a problem, and it was tied to the school. But that's very rare with the records they have in the school.
Mark Bassingthwaighte:
Yeah. Yeah.
Ann Moderie:
So I hope that as a legal community, we open ourselves up to these stories. And even if you don't end up taking it, trying to give the family the support they need. There are organizations out there that help survivors of these schools that they've got a hotline you can call and get help. So the more awareness we can do as attorneys, I think, is the best.
Mark Bassingthwaighte:
Okay. And I absolutely agree with you. If you would like, you are welcome to share contact information if anyone in the audience happens to stumble onto something like this. If you would rather not, that is fine. I will share mine. And I assure you folk and mine's widely available, and I can pass things on, but...
Ann Moderie:
Well, I don't want to use this as a means-
Mark Bassingthwaighte:
It's okay.
Ann Moderie:
... of getting cases either, though. I don't want it to seem like that.
Mark Bassingthwaighte:
Well, no, no. That's not... It's maybe they have a case, and how did you handle it?
Ann Moderie:
Okay. Yeah.
Mark Bassingthwaighte:
I'm not trying to help drum up business for you.
Ann Moderie:
Yeah.
Mark Bassingthwaighte:
It's, are you able to, or if you would like to have someone reach out so that they can help spread the word, they can understand what to do.
Ann Moderie:
Sure. Yeah.
Mark Bassingthwaighte:
If not, I'll just share my information. How about we leave it at that?
Ann Moderie:
Well, I have a website, Moderie Law, and my contact information is on there. I'm always happy I to visit with survivors, and if I can help, help. If I can't, try to refer them to an organization or individuals that can. I'm always in any capacity, whether it's this field... this area of law, or not, I think that we need to do that as attorneys.
Mark Bassingthwaighte:
Yeah. [inaudible 00:28:30].
Ann Moderie:
[inaudible 00:28:30] job.
Mark Bassingthwaighte:
Well, I really appreciate you taking the time to share this story again. And I'm glad that we have an opportunity to continue to try to spread the message.
Ann Moderie:
Yeah.
Mark Bassingthwaighte:
This is... I just am still, I wouldn't say, shock. I had no idea. And it's troubling to me. That's the word I'm looking for.
Ann Moderie:
Yeah.
Mark Bassingthwaighte:
Well, folks, I'm going to wrap with that. I encourage you to if you have any interest, and take a look at the Netflix series. Again, it's The Program. And if you have questions, concerns on risk management issues, ethics, insurance coverage, and all the things that I tend to do, I'm not the risk manager for ALPS. I'm hired by ALPS to be the risk manager for the bar at large.
And you are free to reach out to me at any time if there's anything I can do. My email is mbass, M-B-A-S-S@alpsinsurance.com. A-L-P-Sinsurance, one word.com. And I can also, if you ever want to reach out to Ann and have trouble locating her, reach out to me, and I can pass information along [inaudible 00:29:43] happy to do that. So that's it. Thanks for listening. Have a good [inaudible 00:29:47]. Bye-bye.
