ep27 | the artisan podcast | dr. heidi hanna | creativity & tools for stress mastery

Dr. Heidi Hanna is a best-selling author of 7 books, is an authority on stress mastery and brain-based health and performance.

https://heidihanna.com/

https://heidihanna.com/stress-toolkit/

https://www.linkedin.com/learning/managing-stress-for-positive-change

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Very nice to have you here. And you and I have worked together several times through the Entrepreneurs Organization and I was on your podcast for stress mastery. I would just really love to have a conversation about stress and specifically as it pertains to creativity since the audience that we are speaking to is primarily on the creative side, both writers as well as designers and marketers. 

Let's talk about stress. But let’s before that talk about how did you fall into this field?

Heidi: Well, I'll give you the shorter version of the story. So we don't take up all of our time. But I really struggled with stress from an early age, so much so that I ended up fainting and losing consciousness and went to a lot of different doctors. This is around the age of 11 to 12 years old, went to a bunch of doctors, they couldn't figure out what was going on. I was diagnosed with a lot of different confusing things. 

But ultimately, at the end of the day, they said it's probably just stress. And so that word meant a lot to me at a very early age and I couldn't understand it. Of course, my parents did the best they could to try to teach me how to cope with that. But it's just something we're not really taught. We're not really taught what stress is or how to cope effectively with it. I think we're talking about it more now. But it still seems like it's this big, bad beast that's out there that we're fighting against. Instead of the way I like to look at it ,it's a relationship we have with the circumstances of our lives, based on our demand versus capacity. 

And so it can be physical, emotional, mental, spiritual, or social. Creative people certainly have a lot of unique challenges in the stress space, which I know we'll talk a little bit more about. And a lot of us who are creative are also highly sensitive to stress. So we can get moved by stress in either direction, positively or negatively. And I think that that was me even though I didn't see myself as a creative person as a child. I was very influenced by the emotion and the energy around me. And so stress became really kind of debilitating in some ways and led me down this path to understand it. So I studied nutrition, exercise, physiology, psychology, neuroscience, everything to kind of come to a better understanding of what's actually happening when we say that we're feeling stressed.

Katty: What is actually happening?

Heidi: I do think that the first thing again, to keep in mind is that it's a relationship that each of us has, and so it's very much based on a perception of this gap between demand and capacity. So if we believe that we have the resources that we need to cope with those demands, then we have a very different stress reaction pattern that's more like acute stress. 

So if there's actually an emergency and we have to do something, we have the production of adrenaline. We have that kind of fight or flight feeling, but that's for a short period of time. That's only if something's about 30 minutes or less. If we experienced more chronic stress or we don't think that we have the resources to deal with what's being asked of us, then it moves into more of a chronic state, primarily fueled by cortisol, which is a more long-term survival hormone. And this is where we start seeing immune function go down, brain function go down, memory attention and we see the more toxic side of the stress reaction pattern which estimates are that stress like that is responsible for about 75 to 90% of medical visits. 

So we know that stress has this toxic side. But I would also remind us all that if we didn't care about something, we wouldn't feel stressed. So stress can also be an indication of what really matters to us. And I think that's where as a creative person, I personally think everyone's creative and everyone has that in them. But if we're trying to tap into that creative side of who we are, that stress can really be like, GPS for where we're off. Where we need to course correct some things that we're working on or even when we just need to recharge our own battery and stop trying to force out of a capacity that might be lower than then would be ideal. So

Katty: There's been so many triggers for so many people. And there are so many I think tools that you talk about and that you have on your site, whether it be meditation, whether it be exercise. Rules that anyone can embrace and really run with to help manage their stress. Can you talk a little bit about some of the best practices that you've seen out there for people to bring themselves back to a place of de-stress? Would that be the right word?

Heidi: Well, I think it's the balance. It's that being more feeling more in control, not even control because we're not ever really in control, feeling more capable will feeling like you have more resources. 

So there's two things to look at if we're looking at stress as what happens in the gap between demand and capacity as you can either decrease the demand on your system or you can increase your capacity. So you can look at the different types of practices similarly, with you know, what is it doing? Am I decreasing all the stuff on my to-do list or am I increasing my own capacity to get those things done by changing my environment or changing my energy by going for a walk or spending time outside? Certainly listening to music and meditation. 

I find that most people know the types of things to do, but it's really the story we tell ourselves about making them a priority. Are you proactively building your own capacity so that when you hit the demand, you're more able to cope? 

And then do you have some of these techniques reactively in the moment when you find yourself feeling stressed, it really takes both, so that's why this idea of stress mastery is not eliminating stress but being more able to use stress as fuel for positive change. In order to do that, we have to again have that capacity. So thinking proactively, having a morning ritual that you do every day that helps you to really anchor into what's most important to you is probably one of the most important things.

And I know for me and maybe people listening, I do morning pages from The Artists Way. Whether I'm being creative or not, that's just something that really helps me, but I also listen to a meditation, I also try to get a daily walk or two or three depending on the stress I'm feeling. 

But that morning ritual and then also before bed an evening ritual that helps us to prepare the brain to be able to sleep and I know a lot of creative people their brains are so active and especially if you've got stress hormones, fueling your energy throughout the day you feel tired and wired at the same time. 

At night, it can be hard to fall asleep or stay asleep. So having a proactive routine that you do again, same types of things, music meditation, taking a warm bath, going for a walk, petting your cat…All those types of things start to give us a good bookend for when we're starting and stopping our day. And then just super important to prioritize breaks during the day, recharge breaks I call them to replenish your capacity and to go back to where we started. 

I still think it's less about the techniques you use and more about the story you tell yourself that makes it a priority so that you're not either just over-scheduling yourself or getting stuck with a creative block, but actually oscillating. 

Because everything about the human system, including our energy and our creativity is supposed to oscillate. We're gonna have times where we're really productive and times where we have to recharge. But especially in today's world, we're not very good at the downtime, you know, that nourishment time, and I will say coming out of COVID-19 that we're now starting to see in the research less of an impact of what we would typically call stress symptoms, but we're seeing a massive increase, like 90%, almost in post-traumatic stress disorder symptoms which means that most people are starting to get the sense that the stress part is over or getting more manageable, but the reaction to that is a little bit more long-term. So more fatigue, more brain fog, that kind of exhaustion that a lot of people are feeling. It's hard to get creative juices going when you're feeling really fatigued.

Katty:: So well said. Where I agree with you initially in preparation for this conversation. As I was thinking for myself, as I was actually planning my morning. My morning was completely out of whack, as I just came back from vacation and suddenly check emails and so on and so forth. I'm glad that we're not talking about you know, eliminating stress because that's not gonna happen. It's really diminishing that time between the demand and the capacities and what we're talking about and how can we refuel that capacity over and over again by various techniques to give us the power, if you will, to be able to deal with a capacity that comes at us. 

This morning, as I was getting ready for us here and also just getting through all the emails that were waiting for me, what I realized, which is counter to how I usually do my day, realized that you know, I didn't have anything organized, I had everything saved to my brain as opposed to on my to-do list. Even though I started my morning with a walk and then a meditation, and then I turned on my emails and like everything just went out the door. Right? 

So I'd love to kind of talk about multitasking and this false narrative, speaking of stories, we tell ourselves. This false narrative that at least I know I tell myself that I can juggle it up all without really an organized method to move forward with everything that I need to do as multitasking exists.

Heidi: Well, so we know the brain can't actually multitask. We love to think that it can and this conversation actually came up last week when I was doing a training co-facilitating with your husband and we were talking about multitasking and somebody said, Well, my wife says that she can do it really well. And I said well, that's great. 

Women are more hard-wired to so-called multitask, what we're really doing is switching tasks back and forth. So yes, we think we can do something better, but it's actually really harmful, so it's not something to brag about, that we're constantly switching because there is a cost with that there's a time and energy and even a stress reaction cost. 

If we are trying to force the brain to focus on multiple things in a short period of time. That is a signal to the brain that there's an emergency because that wouldn't be a good way of doing things if you are in a calm capable state. So it just doesn't make sense to the brain otherwise to do that. So stress hormones are going to increase which is going to cause some inflammation, things you're not necessarily going to feel in the moment, but you're going to feel more tired or you're going to feel more wired as a result of doing that and I would encourage people to just try it for a day. Just try really being single task focused even if you have to cut the time to like 15 minutes on this and then this and then this, being intentional about it and notice if you feel differently, by the end of the day. If you find yourself more able to actually relax. 

You have to do it for a couple of days before you really notice it but when you have a lot of screens going, for example, it is definitely more exhausting, but it's also causing that stimulation to increase. So sometimes people feel better multitasking, it's almost like doing a drug that makes you feel better because it's stimulating in the moment, but long-term has this negative consequence to it. 

And because we're talking about creativity, I mean creativity is something where we really need more depth of focus. We actually may not even need as much time but we need to be able to go a little bit deeper with our processing and with putting connections together in new ways. And so you know, if we think about it that way, think about the energy you bring to the time that you have not just how many things can I get done in a shorter period of time? That really changes everything and I know for me, that was a huge shift because I didn't see myself as creative to finally say, the way that I work I probably get more done in four hours than most people do in eight or nine because the intensity is so high, but there's also a huge demand in that. So in order to do that, I probably have four hours of just brain fitness time in my day where I'm just recharging or eating healthy food or getting time outside. So it's just making the adjustment less multitasking and more single-task focus knowing you're going deeper. The deeper you go with your energy the more you actually have to recharge your own battery to get yourself into that balance.

Katty: I love that, brain fitness. Unfortunately, physical fitness is something that I think most people think about when we're talking about fitness, but mental health as a whole and just brain fitness, that is definitely not something that is an everyday vocabulary for many, myself included. I have to be intentional about sitting down and saying okay, now it's time for my meditation or it's time for my walk. It's not something that just naturally happens.

Heidi: Yeah, it is a different way of thinking about it. I guess for me, I just keep kind of going back to this idea that our energy is our most valuable resource. It's the energy we bring to the time that we have and the brain is the master conductor of our energy. So from our perspective and our mindsets, which can dramatically change through training and it's not training that it always has to be work. Again keeping in mind that sometimes it's actually just being still, which is super hard when we all feel like we have to be productive all the time. 

One of my favorite things to do is just to lay on the floor with my arms just sprawled out and just feel gravity supporting me like just that feeling of grounding. And there's a lot of different ways that people can practice that as well, is so important just to continue to kind of get ourselves back to that place that we really want to be to be our best selves. I think we've just been kind of taught that it's all about time management, being productive, and working all the time and you're lazy if you're not putting out great content 24/7. You know, it's just it's not sustainable.

Katty: Yeah, and certainly talking about creativity, we need inspiration, right? That's not gonna come from just staring at the screen 24 hours either. So whether it's the walks that you were talking about or good nutrition, something to take us away from being locked into this square here or rectangle here and have to be on all the time.

Heidi: I think most people will say that they have their best ideas in the shower, or while they're on a walk. For me. I tried to get a massage every week. And that for me is my most creative time. I used to actually take a notebook in with me because that's where I wrote a lot of my books was getting a massage because as the body relaxes, and the mind relaxes all these ideas start coming together. Now I'm at the point I don't do that anymore. I just say hey, if it's meant to be it'll still be there when I’m done because I want to just enjoy it. Took some practice to get there. But I think that's another example of being proactive. Everyone's different as to what's going to recharge their battery but if you invest in yourself, you know, Julia Cameron talks about the artist date, which to me is just kind of, you know, what do you do for yourself where you can just play and be creative with no output, no outcome needed? We just don't do that very much anymore. We feel selfish if we do that. And it's to me it's just as much an investment in your business as anything else that you do.

Katty: Yes, we feel guilty when we step away or when we take that time for ourselves and not necessarily on the deliverables at hand. Although we'll make the deliverables a lot richer when we have that time. It's so funny that you've referenced a couple of times to yourself as not being creative and I think you've written four or five books?

Heidi: Seven now.

Katty: Seven books! And you're constantly creating coursework, you're creating meditations for others, you're creating online content that you're teaching others so you're constantly actually in the state of creating. Yeah, it's funny that, you know, we don't like ourselves that way.

Heidi: It is funny to me and that's one of the reasons I mean, I read The Artists Way now several times, but even when it's like the artists’ date. I'm like, “Well, I'm not an artist.” So I'll just call it creativity. I think as a child, I probably actually would have called myself creative. I mean, I was singing and acting and doing photography. So obviously I have that in me. But I think someone along the path convinced me that I wasn't and I know so many people struggle with that. So I love this. I love the whole conversation. In fact, I mentioned to you that I'm posting a creativity retreat at Canyon Ranch with a colleague of mine who teaches a course on creativity at Harvard. So that's gonna be really fun to explore, and I look forward to getting just as much out of it as I do being able to lead some of those conversations because I think we are all creative. I just think we have some creativity wounds that need to be healed.

Katty: Yeah, there's definitely an opportunity to be able to tap into that. Because you know, we we've had this conversation before I'd never thought of myself as a creative. I always call myself a creative groupie, that the artists that we represent and the marketers and they're the writers that work with Artisan Creative. I've always been so fascinated and enamored with their portfolios and the work that they do. And when somebody asks me, “Well, are you a creative yourself?” I'm like, “Oh, no, no, no, I'm not. I'm on the business side of it and I'm a groupie.” But I've come to terms with the fact that I too, authored a book that took forever to do. But I have and now I'm working on this journal that's going to be coming out. So I'm happy to step into this space and say that you know, what inspiration and creativity was there. I just didn't know how to get into it. And finally, I've learned how to do that. 

Heidi: Yeah, that's beautiful. And now you're helping other people do that too, with that podcast and other things that you're doing, which is great.

Katty: Thank you. I appreciate that. I would love to talk about a little bit more about just stress mastery, not necessarily management, stress mastery, and see if there are a few tips that we can leave for the audience, especially with the holidays coming or working from home like all of those things. Can we talk about two or three things that on a regular basis people can embrace with mastering this thing we call stress?

Heidi: Yeah, I have a stress mastery formula, and it's super simple, and it's just a good thing, I think to keep in mind when we're having that experience. And you don't necessarily have to do all three of them. But if you can move through these three really simple steps, I think that's where we find the lesson and what stress is trying to teach us. 

The three steps are: Assess, Appreciate, and Adjust. So the first thing is to assess and it's not doing a full assessment or anything but to actually ask yourself what you're feeling. Because stress really isn't a feeling. There's usually a feeling associated with stress, but if we can uncover that like, “Are you tired? Are you sad, scared, vulnerable? What emotion is actually coming up in you that you're labeling as stress?” 

Because if you say to me, I'm feeling stressed. I don't know what that means. Right? That's really the energy that you're feeling. Maybe anxiety, tension, whatever, but what's really under the surface? And if you can look under the surface a little bit, I'd also ask, what value is being threatened? And this is something that really I started doing last year when I was just so overwhelmed and I was trying to do presentations, and I just could barely get out of bed. And I started thinking about this what value is being threatened? Why is this happening? And I realized it's the value of doing good work, but it was also the value of people's time. If I'm doing a presentation and people are coming. I want them to get something out of it. And I would get myself so worked up about that, that it would totally hijack me. So when I asked myself what am I feeling? Am I feeling vulnerable, or am I feeling scared or whatever it is, and it's because I really want to create value for these people. 

Then we go to the next step of appreciation, which is appreciating that something's important to us, appreciating ourselves for having that value, appreciating what we do have to offer so it's a shift from something that's negative and depleting to something that's now more positive. I actually appreciate that I care so much that I'm concerned and now I can work with that. So it's no longer hijacking me. Now I break the circuit. 

And I lean into that and say, okay, so if I really care, what's one adjustment that I can make right now when would the smallest thing that would have the best impact? So do I need a new slide? Or do I need to just go for a walk? What adjustment is going to actually help me feel that I can create more value? So now I'm not focused on the problem of stress? I'm focused on creating value and then the adjustment is just something small, it can be problem-focused. The problem is my slides are terrible. So I'm just gonna do one new slide and that's it. Or it could be emotion-focused, which is that I just need to feel better. I need to do some aromatherapy or talk with a friend or watch a funny video or something like that. 

So assess, appreciate, adjust is the simple way to kind of think through that. Assess what's really going on, what value is being threatened, appreciate yourself and the resources that you have to bring which is going to lift your energy, give you more capacity, and then make a small adjustment. And just no matter how small it could be walk around the block one time once you get started, your energy is a little bit better. You have a whole new perspective on the situation.

Katty: I love that. Thank you. Thank you. I think I'm gonna put those words on my vision board here, so I can look at them every day.

Heidi: A lot of times we don't assess, but we tend to just adjust. So what can I fix, tell me what to fix? And I think we really miss the blessing of stress, which is that it's trying to teach us something. So that's where I think we just need to slow down for a second and figure out what's going on and why it's there and appreciate ourselves in that. Because when we shift from a stress state to a gratitude or appreciation state we changed like over 1000 chemical mechanisms in our brain and body that move us to you know, be able to be creative. And then a lot of ways whether you're creative or not, this is what we're trying to move people to problem-solve more effectively. So now they see more possibilities, more choices, and more opportunities in the experience than they would if they were just shut down.

Katty: It's interesting that you used the wording of the blessing of stress, really kind of utilizing stress as that beacon if you will, to kind of figure out what is going on.

Heidi: Yeah, one of my favorite things that I kind of go back to is that stressing is a blessing when we know how to use it for good. So if you think about the most challenging things in your life, oftentimes there when we grow the most, where relationships you know, people show up for us the most. I know you talked about that in your book and those types of things. So I do think that the experience of stress is trying to help us. It only hurts us when we kind of push it down or push it away. We avoid it or ignore it. That's where it becomes toxic and that's where it can build up. But if we can lean into it a little bit more. That's where the growth happens. So post-traumatic stress growth instead of disorder. It's possible. 

Katty: Yeah, exactly. I think, just to be able to have some tools not to freeze in the face of stress.

Heidi: Right. And those things breathing, meditation, music, I always say you know proactively practice those so that reactively in the moment, you can go back to it. I have what I call a brain recharge process, which is to just breathe, feel a positive emotion and then focus on how you want to show up. And that can be something people can practice, practice, practice so that in the moment if you're feeling triggered and you need to circuit break the stress, you can move into that quickly. Other things like a certain song or a certain aromatherapy blend, or techniques like that, a certain place that you go to. I have a specific meditation person, I listen to you and as soon as I hear his voice, I'm in that space, it's just practice, practice, practice. So that when you're in the moment and you need something, you can go to it and you can circuit very quickly.

Katty: It’s interesting too, you said aromatherapy. I have little vials of lavender or different kinds of scents in my pockets, in my purse, especially on the plane. I'd love to put it on but scents are such a positive trigger for me. And I know that people think of triggers as bad always. I don't think so I think how we react to them. Marshall Goldsmith, quoting him, “Triggers neither good or bad. It's our reaction our behaviors towards it determine whether they're good or not.”

 So scents are a great positive trigger for me, and when I find myself stressed, I didn't realize that I was assessing, but now it makes sense when I get really stressed and try to figure out like, Am I really hungry? If I wasn't hungry, would whatever occurred have impacted me as much or am I really tired if somebody had said the same thing to me when I've had eight hours of sleep, versus if I only had four hours of sleep would my reaction still be the same? And it never is. I can deal with it much better, so that goes back to what you were saying before is replenishing the capacity.

Heidi: Yeah, and in that way stress is kind of like the gaslight going off in our car. We wouldn't smash the gaslight and try to make it go away we go get gas. So in a lot of ways, the stress could be that we haven't eaten or we haven't had enough water, we haven't had enough sunlight or whatever it is. It's just giving us a message.

Katty: Or when it's too hot. I just can't deal with it when it's too hot. So that stresses me out. But air conditioning comes in handy for that. What are you working on these days yourself? What's what's keeping the creative juices flowing for you? You said the Canyon Ranch event is something you're getting ready for?

Heidi: Yes. And I'm in an interesting season right now. There's been obviously a lot of change for everyone. In addition to that, I've had some pretty severe losses in my life during COVID. So there's just been a lot of adjustment and I think I'm in a season of cocooning. Which is an interesting space to be in and I'm trying to trust that, where I am noticing a lot more fatigue and trying to be still more and listen more. I'm doing a lot of writing but just for the sake of journaling and expressing myself. I actually have to kind of force myself to not create content because I've been doing that for so long. So it's really interesting. 

So I think in some ways trying to find the creativity in the stillness, and being patient and trusting enough that it will come back. I think that's a scary place to be and I'm sure I'm not alone. In seasons of life where it's like, life is just kind of saying to be still in trust and have faith and not always easy to do. So that's where I'm at, and I'm kind of just keeping it open-minded for what's ahead in the future. And I'm super grateful that I have four courses on LinkedIn Learning where my content can exist and I don't have to keep creating it so people are getting a chance to experience it there. And my hope is that coming out of all of this, it'll be really clear how I can best serve next, certainly paying a lot of attention to mental health in organizations and this kind of post COVID once we get there, fatigue that a lot of people are going to be dealing with as we try to be adaptable for what's ahead.

Katty: Thank you for saying that. In our day-to-day work, we encounter so many people who've lost their jobs, in this previous year and have not yet been able to secure something even though there are so many open jobs for whatever reason that connection just hasn't happened for them. And in speaking to them that stressful energy or that energy that exudes sometimes is of desperation or just giving up because no one's responding to their resume or no one's picking up the phone. And so I think it's just wise words to just sit with it for a moment and even think about it like it's what I've been doing all these years. Is it still something that I want to continue doing and if not, are there other opportunities for me to brush up on my current skills or add new ones so that I can be in a new season.

Heidi: I've been thinking a lot and speaking a little bit about possibility thinking that like when things are uncertain, just trying to allow ourselves to think about the positive possibilities. It's just really difficult. Uncertainty is one of the most difficult things that we experience as humans. The brain will just kind of go bonkers. We don't like uncertainty. So we tend to prefer misery that we know versus uncertainty that could be really wonderful on the other side of it. So I think that practice as well as just thinking about every moment there's a possibility for a new beginning a new chapter. Yeah, I love that. Dwell in possibilities. I love that and kind of soaking in that too. And just being in that for a little bit, I think is a beautiful experience to have. 

Katty: Yeah, this is one of my favorite quotes. Emily Dickinson and you just never know what's around the corner, what the next possibility can be. So just dwelling on that is something that I embrace. And I need a reminder of it. That's why there's a sign on my wall. 

Heidi: It gives us hope and I think that's what a lot of people need now more than anything is that sense of hope.

Katty: That sense of hope and then also with everything that you've shared, not only to just sit there and be wishful thinking that hope something magical will happen, but to have some tools to be able to make that hope happen or to make those possibilities come to life. Someone asked me the other day what my thoughts were on change, and what did I think about change? And I said, “I think there's a lot of creativity that sits within change. We don't know what we don't know. But when that change does happen, just kind of as you were saying just lean into it and see what are the opportunities and what are the possibilities out there.

Heidi: Yeah, well, and I think creating is changing, right? I mean, it's new, you're creating, you're bringing something new to life or to light that wasn't there before. So I don't think you can have one without the other. I guess you could change without creativity, which would leave you kind of stuck in the dust a little bit if we can’t adapt in some way to what's new. But yeah, I think that's a whole different way to look at change is that it's an opportunity for creativity. We can lean into that. 

Katty: Yes, and I certainly hope that for all the listeners out there all the creatives who are in between opportunities all the ones looking for new jobs, for you for me, for all of us, we will just naturally encounter change and possibilities and stress and all of that. Could we be able to utilize some of the tools and techniques that you've talked about to replenish our capacity so that we can deal with everything that is on our plate.

Katty: Heidi, where can people find you? Can you talk a little bit more about the LinkedIn Learning that you mentioned, if anybody wanted to sign up or any of that.

Heidi: Yeah, so the easiest place to find me is probably my website, which is Heidihanna.com. The other one is LinkedIn, because I do teach several courses there. I’m a little bit more active there than other social media platforms. And I have four courses available. At least two of them right now are free. You don't even need to have a LinkedIn Learning account. So if someone's listening, and you would like a free trial, you can actually send me a message on LinkedIn and let me know that you heard me through this podcast that way I'll know to accept the invitation. And say that you're looking for the free trial and I can send you a link that actually gives you 30 days to the whole library doesn't have to just be my courses. But I have a course on stress mastery;I have one on energy management; one is on dealing with feeling overwhelmed, which actually came out the beginning of last year, which is kind of amazing timing. And then this year, I created a course on how to prepare to go back to work. So some of the emotional, the anxiety, the uncertainty of going back into the workplace. So those are all available there and people can connect with me there as well.

Katty: Fantastic. And yes, that is itself very stress-inducing. Navigating, that new terrain that we're in.

Heidi: Yeah, and it's changing all the time. People ask me all this time, to give some kind of best practices and things like that. And it's hard to manage anything right now other than our emotions and our relationships and how we communicate and how we bring our energy and manage all those pieces of what's in our control because things are changing all the time. 

I'm getting booked for things in person that they are virtual, which then turn into pre-recorded and it's like, you just don't know and as much as we'd like to plan for early next year. We still don't know exactly where we're going to be. Like I said it's a great lesson in flexibility and creativity. I think we just have to make sure we're really taking care of ourselves because it requires more energy to do that. So self-compassion, compassion for others, and recharging our own battery. I think those are the most important things. 

Katty: Beautiful, beautiful words to bring our conversation to a close and I hope that everybody listens out there, self-compassion is so important to be able to embrace. Thank you Heidi for being here and for sharing your wisdom. I will absolutely share your website and all your great books for all the audience to follow up on. Thank you.