The AmWritingFantasy Podcast: Episode 150 – How to Create Chapters That Will Hook Readers

Do you want to write a page turning novel that will keep readers up long past their bedtime? Well, one key to doing that is to write chapters that keep readers turning pages.

We go over some tips from opening lines to closing and everything in between to help you write chapters that will keep your readers hooked.

To check out the book Plot Development that we mention in the podcast, follow this link: https://books2read.com/Plot-Development

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Read the full transcript below. (Please note that it's automatically generated and while the AI is super cool, it isn't perfect. There may be misspellings or incorrect words on occasion).

Narrator (1s):
You're listening to The Am writing Fantasy Podcast in today's publishing landscape, you can reach fans all over the world. Query letters are a thing of the past. You don't even need a literary agent. There is nothing standing in the way of making a living from writing. Join two best selling authors who have self published more than 20 books between them now on to the show with your hosts, Autumn Birt and Jesper Schmidt.

Jesper (29s):
I'm Jesper

Autumn (31s):
And I'm Autumn.

Jesper (33s):
This is episode 150 of the Am Writing Fantasy podcast. And we are taking a closer look at Chapters today. How to Create Chapters, That Hook you readers, and hopefully give you some good and strong tips in the process here.

Autumn (50s):
Absolutely. I mean, these are sort of the building blocks of that. Pull the reader through the story. And I don't think there's a lot of people who realize maybe the importance of setting them up. I mean, we spend so much time talking about that Plot outline and what goes into the intro of your story, but we don't talk a lot about what actually is happening in each individual chapter. So I think this will be a good one we'll chapters or a book is made up by chapter. So I don't know why Chapters would be important at all at all. It's like building a wall without using any bricks. We're putting them on the walls. No, there's you go, but let's assume you want a wall and if you just put your bricks, like just dump them in a pile, you're not going to have a very good wall, so you should make sure you put it together constructively.

Autumn (1m 41s):
Okay. Well, if I say showed and I guess we have to talk a bit about that today.

Jesper (1m 45s):
Yeah. I guess we will. We'll talk about some construction equipment. No, thanks where you over there.

Autumn (1m 52s):
It's quite good. There is a school break here this week. So actually I don't have to get up that early in the mornings. That's very, very nice. That is always a sweet thing considering, especially, yeah, since I'd be getting up at 5:00 AM with my husband to see him off to his current training, he's going through yeah. That's, I'm envious if I'm AM's a little early for me. Yeah. The only problem is that now when you don't have to get up that early, you stay up later. And especially because my wife and I started watching squid game on Netflix. I heard about that. Yes. I've actually, I started up watching episode one and honestly I didn't get into it and maybe I was tired.

Autumn (2m 35s):
So I just kind of put it aside. How are you guys liking it?

Jesper (2m 39s):
Oh, I love it. I think it's so good. I finally understand why this caught on so big that it had it's I think it's so good. I buy have to try it again eventually, but yeah, I'll have to keep that in mind. Maybe I was just off that night. I don't know. But I think one good thing that be Taken away from us, you know, for us as writers and authors, is that the writer who wrote squid game, he actually tried to sell the script for 10 years, 10 years. Think about how much success it has right now. And it took him 10 years to, to sell it.

Jesper (3m 19s):
And finally Netflix said, okay, fine. We'll buy it. And then it's a massive success.

Autumn (3m 24s):
That's crazy.

Jesper (3m 27s):
Yeah. And I think that's a good thing too, to keep in mind for us as authors, as Willy, when we write our books. And so on that, sometimes it just takes a long, long time and then success comes so

Autumn (3m 38s):
Assistance and belief in yourself and just keep trying until someone finally says yes,

Jesper (3m 46s):
Exactly.

Autumn (3m 46s):
Very nice. I like that. Oh, it's been good. I, I showed you pictures, but yes, my husband and I entered dog, went whitewater kayaking. It was so cute. Yeah. We've done some really crazy adventurous things with this music, current terrier. So he's, he's a little, he's supposed to be like Toto, but he's a little bit of a, he's a monster version of Toto. He's a little bit like five pounds bigger than Toto would be. But yeah, we went, we went kayaking as a family and it was just gorgeous fall weather. And that was right before it switched from being like 70 degree days to now. It's like in the fifties that I've got the wood stove going, but that's nice too. It feels like fall.

Autumn (4m 27s):
I can't complain. It's bit of kind of dice. I've been burning the candle at both ends though, because I, I, this is like my, why we're meeting and doing our recording. This is my afternoon slump time. And I'm trying with caffeine to get through it, but I am horrible. I get up at five and I am dead until about six o'clock and then my mind turns on them and I'm fine. And I find, I go through the afternoon and there's this slump. And then right around dinner time, I'll wake up and I'll be good to like 10. And I just can't change that rhythm in my body. It's been that way since I was a kid. And so yeah, I try, I keep myself awake right now.

Jesper (5m 6s):
Yeah. But, but I think actually, I don't know, but I have a theory that probably a lot of people have it like that because I know exactly what I mean. What do you mean? I can also be like in the morning, you know, getting up for something you like really tired and it's like, oh, it's early. And then you think, oh, then I'll, I'll be thinking to myself then, okay. Tonight, I'm going to go to bed early because I'm so tired and I need to catch up on sleep and so on. And I'll be tired throughout the day as well on those days. Not right today, but in general, I mean, if that happens right. But then once I get to dinner time and afterwards, then I start getting, I start waking up and it's just like, no, you don't want to go to bed. And then the next day, the whole cycle repeats itself. And it's just like, I don't know, but you're not the first one saying it.

Jesper (5m 50s):
And I have it the same way. I don't know if it's like something, probably not all EVERY everybody, but I think a lot of people, I like that they, they wake, my wife has the same thing she wakes up in the evening. I dunno. It's weird. Isn't it?

Autumn (6m 6s):
Maybe we are. But I'm also really good at, up until about one o'clock in the afternoon from like 6:00 AM to one o'clock. I am fine. I am full throttle, but it's like, I need an afternoon nap. I needed like at one 30 to two, I need like a little bit of a nap and I'd be fine. And maybe I should just put that in my schedule somewhere. And I would probably be so much better, but I'm usually pushing myself through it.

Jesper (6m 30s):
So if it goes quiet on UN, then the listener will know it's because you take a nap and then we should just, we just sit around here and quiet on the podcast, waiting for you to wake up and then we can continue.

Autumn (6m 41s):
I won't do that to you. I think we can make it through.

Jesper (6m 45s):
Okay. Okay.

Narrator (6m 48s):
A week on the internet with The Am Writing Fantasy Podcast,

Jesper (6m 53s):
I noticed this morning that we just about to reach 7,000 members in the Am, Writing fences, you Facebook group order.

Autumn (7m 1s):
That is so I knew we were getting close. It actually, it seemed like we hit 6,000 wait went from 5,000 to 6,000 really, really quick. The 6,000 to seven has been a little slower, but oh my gosh, that is so many people and so awesome.

Jesper (7m 16s):
Do you remember the early days Autumn?

Autumn (7m 19s):
I Remember when it was me making the group and then inviting a couple of Fantasy authors. I knew it. I hadn't even met you yet. Or maybe if I had, I didn't know you on Facebook yet. I only knew you on Twitter and yeah, it was just me and a couple of people. So yeah, I remember very much so. And it was me and some crickets.

Jesper (7m 40s):
Yeah. And it was called slate. The fences, the Facebook group.

Autumn (7m 45s):
That's right. I saw the, I actually still have the original logo, like the artwork I did for it. Way back when tucked away and like terrified. You're right. You're right. That'd be great. I will have to go and do that too. Especially if I happen to catch it at 7,000, I'll do a little celebration and like, oh my God, this was, this was when it was just me and like three other people, which I think are still members too. So that'll be, I will do that.

Jesper (8m 13s):
Yeah. That would be fun. I think for people to see what it used to look like. But the funny thing is also when you have this many members, because I had the, there was somebody posting a, and there's nothing wrong with this. I'm just mentioning it for the fun of it. So the people involved should not feel bad about it at all, but there was somebody posting whether or not it was allowed to ask for some better readers in the Am, Writing Fantasy, Facebook group. And then I posted a, or I replied to say that, yeah. As long as you don't ask people to sign up to an email list or you know that in, in, in other ways you are trying to, to get them on your list or earn money from it or anything like that, then it's fine.

Jesper (8m 59s):
And then somebody else replied to say, are you a moderator? Or have you checked this with the moderators? Because I'm not sure, sure. That's allowed. And then I replied, I'm one of the co-owners of the group, but this is what happens when you have so many people. Some people don't even know who you are. Right. Let's say,

Autumn (9m 17s):
But I think it says like when it says admin next to our name.

Jesper (9m 21s):
Yeah, yeah. Maybe they just made me laugh. She was asking me if I had checked it with a moderator. I like that. I don't think I need to

Autumn (9m 32s):
Our Authors. No, we run very tight ship, obviously tighter than we realize.

Jesper (9m 40s):
Yeah. So if you haven't joined yet head on over to Facebook search for Am Writing Fantasy in the group section, and you will find us. But if you don't like Facebook or you don't use Facebook, I should also point out how you can go to Am Writing Fantasy dot com and sign up for our email list. Through there, you will get information and you will get tips on writing. We share some world-building advice and much, much more that we actually don't share anywhere else. And the best way is to just go to so to Am Writing Fantasy dot com and then on the homepage, when you arrive, there is actually the free self-publishing success course.

Jesper (10m 23s):
So the easiest way to do it is just sign up for that. And then you're going to get a full cost for free. And once you have gone through all the course material, you will be automatically added to our email is so that's the best way to

Autumn (10m 35s):
Do that. Yes. Come join us

Narrator (10m 38s):
And on today's topic.

Jesper (10m 41s):
All right. So chapters, Autumn, what do we say about challenges? They are quite important. I guess if you want to build a house, that's what I, that's what I learned so far.

Autumn (10m 53s):
That's a very important if you're building a house, you can't build a book. Well, actually I'm sure there, I would say you can't build a book without Chapters, but I am one of those people that would, as soon as you tell me, you can't do something, I'm like, ah, I must try it. So I'm sure you can. I'm sure there is like stream of consciousness writing that James Joyce was probably like never used a chapter and it was just publishers that forced them on him. So you probably could write a book. It would just be really tough. It would be a

Jesper (11m 24s):
Mess. Oh,

Autumn (11m 25s):
It'd be such a mess. Don't do it. I think the best way to be organized. It was with Chapters and it gives you so many things you can do. I mean, you can change up your story. You can keep Readers interested, purposely hook them. So they stay up till 3:00 AM. Cause we're cruel to them. You can change point of view of your writing in third person, point of view. So Chapters are really important. There's a lot going on in them.

Jesper (11m 51s):
Yeah, absolutely. And I think, well, it, it very easily starts sounding like science or something, this stuff, right? Like talking about how to do a chapter in the proper way. But, but I think honestly for start, we have to say like, this is our way of doing a chapter. It doesn't mean that it's the only way or the only right way at all. You might have other ways of doing it. Or maybe you hear some advice from somewhere else that you think makes more sense and then that's fine if it works for you, it works for you. Right. So we can only say that this is the way in all of you, that it should be done, but underlying all of you.

Jesper (12m 36s):
Okay.

Autumn (12m 37s):
Absolutely. And I guess to me, we have some social proof that we're not doing things badly. I mean, I have a ton of reviews of people saying I stayed up all night. I finished this book all the way through, or I didn't finish it all the way through, but that's only because it hit 4:00 AM and I'm supposed to go to work at six. So I had to wait until nine the next day when I finally called out a bed after calling in six and finished it at 10. So I don't think we're doing anything wrong because I've seen on both of our reviews that, you know, we have made Readers stay up to the wee hours of the morning to read our stories. And that's partially comes through by the chapters because if you mess up on a chapter and you have a hard end to one, if you don't pull the reader forward and they're like, eh, I don't care anymore.

Autumn (13m 24s):
I'm going to sleep. That's, that's where they take a break. If they get confused, lost, or you just don't have something that makes them want to flip the page.

Jesper (13m 34s):
Yeah. True. Absolutely. And when we are talking about Chapters, think of it as a mini story on his own. So by ministry, what I mean by that is that the character should be trying to achieve something just like the dog is trying to achieve something now. So that's in its own little mini story. There

Autumn (13m 60s):
Was a chapter break

Jesper (14m 2s):
That was a chapter break. That was a point of view chains. It was saying, Hey, it's my point of view. That's all right. Yeah. What I was trying to say is that this means that the character is trying to achieve something and you know, it shouldn't be so that the coach just sitting around in a coffee, shop, reading a newspaper or talking to some random other character. And honestly I have seen books where this sort of thing happens and you are wondering a bit like, why do I care about this? What's going on here? Right. A chapter should contain some sort of sense of conflict and also some sort of, well uncertainty to some degree, I guess you could say, it's something that makes you wonder what's going to happen next.

Jesper (14m 47s):
Right? Those should be the recipe for a good

Autumn (14m 54s):
Chapter. Exactly. It's to me, it's like, it's curiosity, your mystery. There's something going on where, whether it's the character who is curious, you know, is trying to solve something and trawls the reader along. Or if the reader is picking up clues and they want to see what's happening, or even just an action event, they either news that happens off screen or that's just received or, you know, it ends at a battle and someone might be wounded and you're like, I have to turn the page. You know, those are part of the chapters. And I think one of the things we're talking about Chapters as a building block of a novel, but there's building blocks in Chapters. You can have a chapter that it's an entire scene and you could have a chapter that's made up of lots of little scenes, maybe not too many.

Autumn (15m 38s):
You don't want to put in maybe 10 scenes into a chapter that might be a little intense, but two or three, it can happen. You can have scene breaks within a single chapter. And so those are important parts to remember too, if you approach a chapter and you just don't know what to do, or you not sure what's in it. Think of it as a scene. Scenes are different from Chapters, but a lot of people get them confused.

Jesper (16m 1s):
Yeah. So maybe put a few more words on that. Autumm okay.

Autumn (16m 4s):
Sure. Well, so it scene is an event that's happening and usually, you know, it's think of a stage and you have a stage set and you characters walk on, something happens and they walk off sometimes with a scene, you change point of view, but you often change rooms. You change other things that are happening within, but the reason they're combined into one chapter is because the chapter has its own goal. And to me, that's the most important thing. And we talk about this, We, I know you're going to bring it up. Well, we have a Plot development book and we do talk about Chapters in there. So that's a very good way. But to me, the first step in deciding what is making your chapter versus your scenes are the scenes that make up a chapter is a chapter, has a specific goal.

Autumn (16m 52s):
And I always look at it as like, I have a goal for the chapter as an author. There's a part of the plot. It is, it is unveiling. So it's part of the inciting incident. It is part of the reaction phase. So that's my goal as an author, but there's also the characters goal and that's the part that's moving the stories forward. And that's an important thing you want to make sure the character has a goal when that chapter begins. And you know, it's going to wrap up the end of that chapter is, and when that his goal is met or it's stopped.

Jesper (17m 22s):
Yeah. Let me put it into context to you because you mentioned our whole flooding guide book here, because in there we actually have, because now you're talking about character gold and so on. So I think just putting a bit of framework around it, the way we describe it in our book is that a chapter has five areas or you, you, you used the worst word building block before. So if we go with that five building blocks in a great chapter, so there is coach goal, there is a hook, there is conflict and Alima there's reaction and decision and there is the disaster. Yes. So by that, the idea is that you have a character who knows when the chapter starts, what he or she wants to achieve.

Jesper (18m 10s):
And this character then goes after that in one way on other that the reader will find fascinating or interesting. That's the hook pot. And then only it's not that easy to achieve what you want. And especially not. When you live life as a fiction character, you live in the worst nightmare sometimes. Yeah. So it's not that easy. And something is standing in the way and that's then causing the conflict, right? And once you have the conflict, then you have a reaction to what happened. And that will lead into a decision on how to proceed that the character makes. And in the end, we will then finish the chapter on a cliffhanger.

Jesper (18m 54s):
So if you can construct your chapter around those five steps, it will already be very interesting because you are showing the reader that this character, this is what the character is trying to achieve. Meaning that then the reader understands, oh, okay, this is what's happening. This is I, now I know what's going on. It's like, it's like when you enter a meeting in your day job, and there was no agenda and you have no idea what you're going to talk about it very quickly. It becomes very frustrating because like, why are we here? What are we trying to do? So putting that in front of the reader so that they understand what the character is trying to achieve, that's a good starting point. And then when you, you are making life difficult for the character and introducing the conflict and giving them something to react to, then it also humanizes the character because then you feel like, oh, okay.

Jesper (19m 46s):
I can relate to that. I see why they're reacting this way. Or are they getting frustrated or whatever it may be. It's not that a chapter, a good chapter has to have like dire consequences or something. It doesn't have to be like that. That's not what I'm trying to say, but more that there needs to be something at stake and something, as they could just mean that I don't want my brother to find this thing out, for example, or it doesn't have to be like fight scenes or anything like that at all. But when you have something at stake, you have a reaction to it. Then when you end the chapter on some sort of, some sort of cliffhanger, and again by cliff hanger can mean a lot of things. It doesn't necessarily have to mean that it's like a, in the middle of a fight or I think James W what is it called?

Jesper (20m 32s):
James Brown, John Brown. What is he called? The James Brown bet. James Brown. I think he has one where he ends the chapter with the, with the character opening a door, then he stops and you don't get to see what's inside. It that's a bit, I would almost say a lame, but okay. But it's a cliffhanger, but it doesn't have to be like that. It could just be like a cliffhanger could just be like, the character is wondering about something and you don't have the answer for it. And then you want to read on to figure out what is the answer. It could be all kinds of things. So don't say cliff hanger as like, meaning that you have to put some dire consequences on the table, every, in every chapter.

Autumn (21m 12s):
No, it's more like an, almost an unanswered question or an unfinished event. I think those are better way. And I do agree because we often call it, the chapter ends in a disaster, but it doesn't have to be a disaster. It is. Yeah. That's just maybe a typical way of doing it because often with hurdles, it is sort of a disaster someone's wounded, and you don't know what happens, but you could be in a lull or it could be a love scene or something. And someone walks into the ballroom or whatever, a vendor at the, the tourney or something, the next person walks in the love interest or something. And you just stopped there. And there was other people going, oh gosh, you know, there, he or she is.

Autumn (21m 53s):
And that's a cliffhanger because you're like, well, what will they say? What will they do you want to turn the page? It always should end on not wanting to turn the page. And it could be as simple as just receiving news, receiving a reading, finally, a letter that they've been holding in their hand and waving the entire chapter. They finally look and see what it says. And they're like, oh, oh my gosh, this changes everything. And of course you want to turn the page to find out what's going to happen next that's, what's important.

Jesper (22m 24s):
And what's so nice about that. Is that because of what you just explained there, you already have the hook for the next chapter and you also already know what the character wants in the next chapter. So it just adds another minister to the first story. Yes, it's so nice. Because then again, you can build the next chapter with a clear beginning, a clear middle, a clear, and it just makes sense, right?

Autumn (22m 48s):
It does. They build off of each other, which is why it becomes a whole story. They flow into each other with set happenings and events to see what it's going to happen next. And I always say like, as a writer, I always want to write the ending to a chapter. So excited that I want to write the first line to the next chapter. And so if you're that excited, the reader will be that excited. And I think that's, what's important. It's just, it has a flow to it and going even back to scene. So if you think about it as if there are these five or four aspects into a chapter, well, if you have the hook and then the character is doing something and they're going through the conflict or dilemma things, aren't going well.

Autumn (23m 28s):
And for some reason that just that character's point of view is done, and you do a scene break, the decision and action and disaster or cliffhanger could end up being in a different character's point of view. And that's sort of why you can have multiple scenes that fit into a chapter, but they still fit the chapter because you are still following that Hook, decision dilemma, the action emotion reaction, and then the cliff hanger disaster event that is unfinished, that you want to turn the page to see what happens to it.

Jesper (24m 1s):
I think the challenge faced by many writers is actually how to make that conflict part varied, because I mean, you cannot have a 400 page book where every single chapter has a fight in it or nothing. I mean, it could be either a physical fight, but it could also just be people arguing. I, I know when I started out writing at first, I had a tendency to create a lot of arguments and a lot of the chapters because it added conflict. So my line of thinking was good. But the thing is that it, it gets a bit tiresome if, if the characters are always arguing with somebody.

Jesper (24m 43s):
So I think personally, you know, your first spur of inspiration is in 99% of the cases going to be probably quite full of cliches, you know, and that, that's why we prefer at least to do a detailed chapter outline compared to a very loose one where, or even to compare to riding by the seat of your pants. Because I think that the problem is often that you, you keep beating the same old horse or on and on and on.

Autumn (25m 22s):
Yes, I think that's very true. And I, I think it also comes down to knowing your character really well, because you, as an author have, like I mentioned, you have a goal for what's happening in the chapter. And if you're trying to force things on your character, it's going to come across as artificial. And it's not as interesting. The stakes don't feel real. Something just feels off to the reader. But if you have a character and you give the character a goal, like you say, okay, this is going to be a hurdle. And you know, you're going to throw something horrible at the character. And you're like, okay, character, you'd go again. This is you're going in there. This is your goal. And this is what's going to happen. And then let the character figure out, you know, what in their world are they going to do to solve this?

Autumn (26m 2s):
Why do they want to solve it? Knowing your character really well, knowing how they'll react will help pull you through. And I'll also help the reader really resonate with the character. Cause there's a F you know, you want to feel that character trying to problem solve and get out of it on their own instead of being pushed forward, along by the author, because you need to go to the next scene. You can definitely tell when you're reading.

Jesper (26m 27s):
Yeah. And the, and of course the character arc is incredibly important in this whole conversation too, to make sure that you build in at certain points throughout the novel, in some chapters where you gradually showing on, of course, on less on less characters on a steady arc where they don't change. But otherwise that you have some chapters throughout the novel where you're gradually showing that the characters beginning to change. And we go in through it in great detail in, in our guidebook on, on how to plot a novel, but high level. It's often a good thing to start showing them, showing the reader, how the character actually insists on doing the same thing as they've always done, because that's how we work as human beings.

Jesper (27m 16s):
We only, we only start changing once we figure out that what I'm doing is apparently not working. And only once we realized that that's where we start changing, because otherwise we, we're not going to change. Human beings are lazy people. We don't want to change, but once we start, you know, we keep banging our heads against, into the wall because we keep doing the same thing and it doesn't work. Then at some point we will usually start questioning ourselves like, Hmm. I wonder if I could do something differently, then that's where you start seeing the change. So that's a good thing to keep in mind when you're writing as well with your chapters to have four, while the coach would keep doing the same thing and keep facing the same problem, like, you know, from a character arc perspective, like they keep failing basically.

Jesper (28m 1s):
And, and then gradually over time, they'll start trying to try to do some other things and get a different result. And thereby you solidify the change in the character.

Autumn (28m 12s):
Yes. That is very true in such an important aspect. And of course, when you say doing the same things as you don't mean like, you know, going and trying to attack the night that he's obviously not prepared to do, he's not going to do that three times in a row, but he are going to maybe have him pick three different fights or just always be in over his head, always react stubbornly or arrogantly and not us for help. And then finally, you know, there's going to be that moment where maybe it's usually called the dark night of the soul, that moment where, you know, something happens and someone's wounded or hurt or killed because of their stupid actions. And they finally go, next time, I'm going to ask for help because I don't want that to ever happen again.

Autumn (28m 53s):
But again, that's more the entire plot, but it's so true. Each chapter is just pulling the novel forward. And I did, I want to get back to it. You mentioned also speaking of, you know, not repeating, you said about not repeating like the same disaster, the same conflicts. And I also think is a really important not to repeat the exact same Hook or the exact same chapter ending. And those can be as simple as like you dialogue is a fantastic, like if two people are in the middle of a conversation, that's a neat chapter opening. And sometimes it's a really neat chapter ending, but you don't want to have every chapter opening being dialogue or every chapter opening being a description or even action.

Autumn (29m 34s):
All of those are things you should take notice of and kind of vary them throughout your novel. So that one maybe is a dialogue, but another was an action. Maybe one's a description, keep things varied and that'll help make your writing a little bit more interesting and will help remind you to keep things different with each one and, you know, challenge you, isn't Writing all about challenging yourself to become a better somebody.

Jesper (29m 57s):
Yeah, I would say so. I don't know. Are we missing anything? I feel like, I feel like that's pretty encompassing for, for How to Create Chapters.

Autumn (30m 10s):
I think so too. I be, and I can't think of anything else. The best thing to do is to check out, like I said, the plotting book we get into so much more detail on character arcs and plotting the whole novel as well as how to lay out your individual chapter. The difference between chapters and scenes and some good examples in there. So I think those are really, what's important to take a look at if you really want to go in depth, because there's a lot more to this and nailing your chapters and knowing how they build your story is going to one help you learn to write better. And you know, if you're doing well in your chapters, those are usually like when I was writing, I had writing goals. My goal was not a word count.

Autumn (30m 51s):
So I got Scrivener and it, it makes you, it allows you to do a word count goal. But I used to always be like, I want to write this many chapters this week. It's a nice, solid building blocks that helps you break down your novel. And two bites that are really, the reader is bites. The reader is going to stop and start at Chapters. They don't usually stop or start right in the middle of a chapter who wants to do that? That's because someone came in and like you have book from your hand or your Kindle ran out of batteries. That's when you stop in the middle of a chapter or if you're really bad, if it's really, really bad, baby, I don't know.

Jesper (31m 27s):
Yeah. I mean, the chapter's only pot, it's only one piece of the entire puzzle. So I'll book is called Plot Development and it is a very full step-by-step guy. You know, you you'll get everything in that book. You will learn about the character creation as well. You learn about the character arcs, how to build the entire novel, outline, how it affects the chapters and how to build those chapters and, and so on and so on and so on. So, so you're going to get everything you need in that one book. So we've added the link to that one in the show notes, if you are interested. So next Monday, we are talking about the evil within it's about your characters and how to explore them in greater depth.

Narrator (32m 15s):
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