Episode 62: Gene Kim on the Evolution of Product Operating Models in the World of AI

2025-07-02

In this episode, Mik Kersten is joined by Gene Kim—author of The Phoenix Project and The Unicorn Project—for a deep dive into Vibe Coding, his upcoming book co-authored with Steve Yegge. Gene shares how learning to “vibe code”—where the developer supervises AI-generated code instead of writing it line by line—transformed his own productivity and reignited his passion for coding. The conversation unpacks how AI-assisted development drives an unprecedented 10x increase in productivity—and why most organizations...

In this episode, Mik Kersten is joined by Gene Kim—author of The Phoenix Project and The Unicorn Project—for a deep dive into Vibe Coding, his upcoming book co-authored with Steve Yegge. Gene shares how learning to “vibe code”—where the developer supervises AI-generated code instead of writing it line by line—transformed his own productivity and reignited his passion for coding.

The conversation unpacks how AI-assisted development drives an unprecedented 10x increase in productivity—and why most organizations are structurally unprepared to take advantage of it. Mik and Gene explore the architectural shifts, leadership models, and organizational rewiring needed to thrive in this new era. From FAFO (Faster, Ambitious, Fun, Optionality) to the fall of monolithic systems, they cover it all.

Plus, they draw parallels between AI and past industrial revolutions, touch on real-world stories from Booking.com, Adidas, and the UK government, and preview Mik’s forthcoming book, Output to Outcomes, a playbook for organizations navigating the shift from outputs to measurable, scalable results in the age of AI.

Key discussions include:

How Mik’s upcoming book Output to Outcomes builds on Project to Product to guide organizations through this next transformation
Why traditional team structures and monolithic architectures are holding back the potential of AI
The FAFO model (Faster, Ambitious, Fun, Optionality) and what it means for developer experience
Lessons from Amazon, Booking.com, and the UK government on adopting GenAI at scale
Why modularity and outcome-based teams are essential for thriving in the age of AI

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For more information about Gene Kim and to view the full list of resources mentioned in this episode, as well as download the transcript, visit: Show Notes and Transcript.pdf

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