How Might We Impact Leaders Mindset

Introduction

 

Welcome to How Might We, the podcast that explores transformative ideas and strategies for leadership. In this episode, we delve into how leaders can cultivate impactful mindsets, featuring two exceptional guests: Geoff Hudson Searle, an international business leader, author, and keynote speaker with extensive global experience, and Oakland McCulloch, a retired Army officer with over 40 years of leadership expertise spanning combat, peacekeeping, and boardroom operations.

Together, they bring a wealth of insights into the power of trust, collaboration, and mindset in shaping leadership. From the challenges of modern communication to the erosion of institutional trust, this conversation examines practical ways to build connection, foster community, and lead with purpose in a rapidly changing world.

Get ready for an engaging discussion on the privilege of leadership, the importance of curiosity and care, and actionable strategies to create meaningful impact in organisations and beyond. Let’s dive in!

 

Transcript

 

Scott: [00:00:00] Hello, welcome back to the latest edition of how might we, and this edition, we're talking about how might we impact leadership mindset and joining me are Jeff Hudson Searle and Oakland McCulloch. I know you've been on some of the other episodes, both of these people have been on before, so it's going to be an interesting discussion.

But for those who don't know you gentlemen, if you'd like to introduce yourselves to the audience and who would like to go first.

Oakland: Oh, please. I'm glad to be back. Thanks, Scott. And thanks, Jeff, for inviting me to come back. I live here in the United States. I retired from the army after 23 years on active duty.

You got over 40 years of leadership experience in combat, peacekeeping operations, disaster relief operations, and in the boardroom. And now I'm just a keynote speaker. I go around and talk about leadership and success. And as we talk about a lot, Jeff, trust. Absolutely. [00:01:00] I'd

Geoff: like

Oakland: to know

Geoff: though, you're an international keynote speaker these days, aren't you?

That's right. Right. Just

Scott: in front of that. Okay. It lets yourself down. You're not just a keynote speaker. You

Geoff: are international. Yes. It's like

Scott: a man of wisdom. Right. And Jeff.

Geoff: I'm myself. Yeah ex banker city bank head of commercial finance. That's where I started really my career and actually my, my formal education, really anything else 10 years around the world, launching fortune, 100 bands, C suite executive and CEO of both.

Public and privately listed companies. International. Sorry, international. Very international. I've worked in over 121 countries in the world. I'm also an independent non executive director and chair of Remco. I've been doing that for the last 17 years. in my independent capacity. I'm currently on the executive board of two companies, one a metaverse company out of Australia, London and also one an AI sustainability [00:02:00] business which is very much based on Europe, UK, and also in MENA.

I'm also an author of seven books and this family movie Discussion really highlights is going. I hope we'll highlight some of the important issues around, you know, collaboration, community, partnership and very much, you know, trust and what we do today.

Scott: Okay. Welcome gents. So, and you didn't say you're an author as well.

Oakland: Yeah. Yeah, I am. I've got one book out. I'm not as good as Jeff, but I got one out. You are? Talks about leadership and you know, and one of the things I always tell people is, You know, I don't mention theory at all in my book or in my talks. I talk about everyday things that everyday leaders can do to help improve their leadership ability and empower the people they have the privilege to lead.

And it is a privilege to be the leader. And unfortunately as Jeff and I have talked about several times, it's too many leaders today have [00:03:00] forgotten that it's a privilege to be the leader and you see the results.

Scott: Okay, well, you've got one more book than me, so I'm on zero, so you're okay. No books. I keep getting told I should write one, but I haven't got around to it.

Okay, so before we came on here, we were talking, I think the word that came out that interested me quite a lot was community, sort of leadership through community and what that means globally. And obviously, We'll be talking about all the elections that are happening in 2024, and they're all settled down now, so during 2024 into 2025, the results of those elections are going to become apparent and the new governments are coming into shape.

So how does that sort of pan into what we're talking about, the impacts of leadership and mindset? Yeah. So, I mean, let me kick this off. Oak and I were having lunch recently and we, we did talk about this and I think it's an incredibly important subject. Firstly, it's like, you know, when I start to think about community, I start to think about events that come through the [00:04:00] calendar.

Geoff: So we can always talk about Christmas, we can always talk about Thanksgiving, and we start talking about You know what community is. I mean, with that is a set of values, right? You know, if you look at Thanksgiving in the U. S. for instance, you start to talk about gratitude. Well, gratitude shouldn't be reserved just for Thanksgiving.

It should be something that's actually provided, given, and shared throughout the whole calendar year. Where we're failing in, in certain areas is our inability to be able to embrace community, embrace collaboration, embrace, embrace ideas, sharing. ideas, sharing, sharing perspectives and, and doing that in a meaningful way.

You know, the, the erosion of trust in, you know, is a big subject. And, you know, I've, as you know, I've been studying that now for the best part of 30 years, but what I'm finding with trust, it's just getting worse and worse without actually starting to build it. Even in a small way, we [00:05:00] start to actually build community, which then has got an impact.

You know, there are a lot of moving parts when I start talking about this, but you know, community is something that, you know, what Oak said earlier, you know, it's a privilege to lead. Well, to me, it's a privilege and an honor. And also I, I, I feel the same about my friends. I feel still the same about, you know, my close associates.

My business associates and and the people that I share with. It's an honor and a privilege to actually work with people with integrity and and we have to start looking. I mean, I don't know what you think about that. But for me, I think we need to get back to that community matters and it matters. It's not a soft subject.

But if we can start getting community right, we can start getting societal right, and therefore we can start sharing with one another in the physical 5D and not treat each other, you know, in a transactional way, which I feel that we are [00:06:00] doing an awful lot, where life is too transactional, and it's not about the human experience and community and the good things that can actually come from actually setting precedence over something like a community.

Oakland: Yeah, I absolutely agree. I think the part of the problem is that we don't have that conversation. Because we have gotten that we all have something in common you know, whether it's our morality, our values, our culture, whatever it is, but, you know, one of the things I always talk about is that the problem is, is that we concentrate on the things that we have different.

instead of the things we have in common. And if you, if you start with what you have different, you're never going to get to what you have in common because arguments, disagreements, whatever. If we start with what we have in common and we work our way out to the things that we have different, then maybe we [00:07:00] can, at least we're never going to get everybody on the exact same sheet of music.

That's not going to happen, but you can at least then make compromises based on what you have in common that maybe will benefit. The majority of the people can I ask you a question?

Geoff: Can I ask you a question about that? Because I'm really fascinated whether you actually think, you know, fundamentally, it's how we communicate.

I mean, we don't have to argue, do we? Because actually, we should be able to talk to one another.

Oakland: Well, I think that the key is the definition of argument. If you go back to, you know, the founding fathers of America, they said that we have to have arguments. That that is different than having quarrels, you know, I guess, you know, debate, argument, whatever, however you want to define that community demands that we have those debates and those arguments about the things [00:08:00] that that are going to affect all of us, and we got to do that in a civil way and I don't see that happening.

Is

Geoff: technology, is technology still that blocker do you think where we're not actually. You know, as I said, we're not in the human experience of being able to communicate, collaborate and be more of the community from a communication point of view. I mean, I, I would say I'm quite a good yeah, I'm, yeah, I'm not a hundred percent, but I would tell I'm, I'm quite a good communicator.

You know, I'm, I'm very proactive, but you know, there's a lot of people that don't even return messages. They don't, they don't respond. They believe that, you know, technology is kind of the only way that they want to operate. Send me an email and I'll decide whether I want to respond to that, you know. And Carl Honor he wrote the book In the Praise of Slow.

And he's kind of the part of the slow movement. And he's all about, we've got to spend more time with one another. I mean, [00:09:00] you know, people can pass on this earth plane without people even knowing about it if you don't communicate with people and and look when you start to look at we're not too far away from Christmas, you know, people are in isolation.

People don't have anybody to talk to. People are lonely. All this does is bring in mental stress and. And, and depression into their lives. And if we were to be able to communicate more as a community, we can actually bring some, bring some, I'm going to use the word, I'm going to bring some love to these people, right?

Joy, happiness, because end of the day, isn't that what the community is supposed to be? We're not on the earth thing just to pay bills, right? We're supposed to be, share one another and, and be a part of something, right? I've always said that I, I've always wanted to be a part of greatness, right? And the greatness.

It doesn't have to be, you know, 6 billion corporation. It can actually just be working together to achieve certain goals. And and with that, but embracing community, [00:10:00] embracing communication as part of that process.

Oakland: Well, you know, it's funny that you bring that up because my wife just put a blog out on her sub stack just last week or this week, maybe the beginning of this week.

Talking about that exact same thing, you know, and she called it building in wiggle room. And we, and she has for years been an advocate of that, of keep, you know, leave 10 minutes early before you got to go somewhere because you never know who you're going to meet in the elevator or in the hallway or in the garage or in the wherever.

And it might be somebody who needs to talk to you today, needs somebody to talk to. And, and, and, you know, right now with the suicide rates and all that, especially in the veterans community, I say, you know, you never know you stopping and listening to somebody may have actually saved somebody's life today.

A hundred percent. Yeah. And, and, and, but even if it isn't that dramatic, [00:11:00] You can just tell there's sometimes that people just need to talk, and we need, we need to slow down and listen and build that community because like you said, being a part of greatness, It isn't about you, it's about everybody.

It's about

Geoff: everybody. Absolutely. I mean, I go into my local coffee shop, and, you know, and, and people look at me, and they think I'm weird because I'm talking to the barrister who's making the coffee, right? And we're laughing and we're having, we're sharing a few things before I go to get my train, right?

But it's like, surely that is, like, the local coffee shop is the community place.

Oakland: That's right. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's, it's so simple things that, that we got to get back to, you know, I, I was talking to a businessman here in, in Daytona and he, He has about 250 people in his company, and he was, he was telling me that none of them know each other.

Yeah. He said they know each other's names because they send texts and email and call each other. But, but if one walked down the hall and [00:12:00] stood in front of their desk, they'd never even know who it was. And I said, well, there is a way to fix that. I said, a couple of ways. One, start having some, some company get togethers, meaningful ones, like, you know, calling out people and recognizing people who have done good things, you know?

And, but I said, a simple way to do it is just have a, a no email, no phone call, no text message inside the building on Friday. If you want to go talk to Jeff, you got to get out of your seat, go find Jeff and go talk to him. And he tried it. And he said, amazing. He said within a month, people were stopping in the, in the hallway, talking to each other.

I love it. It's really all that simple. It's just getting us away, getting us away from these things. Yeah.

Geoff: Yeah. Yeah.

Oakland: I

Geoff: mean, Lisa, Lisa Petro who's the Harvard professor, she, she wrote a book called Sleeping with your smartphone. Great, great and phenomenal. Her first case [00:13:00] study in deploying her strategy was with BCG, Boston Consulting Group and she proved that she could, she could make increase performance by 25 percent by using the smartphone less and actually having one to one conversations, not just in the office.

but also inter office communication as well. And she proved it. It was a, it was a great case study.

Oakland: No, I absolutely agree. I mean, we got to get back to that person on person communication, you know, I, and, and I, I, I use that a lot when, when I was a recruiter for army ROTC here at the local university. I, I always tried to get.

The family, the young man or the young woman in the family in my office, if I could get them in my office and I could be one on one face to face. Very seldom did I, did I not get that person to

Geoff: forgive me for saying, but I'm a Green Bay Packers fan, right? I'm sorry everyone. Right. I am, but you know, the Packers have got [00:14:00] Green Bay has got a community and everything, the children come down, the, you know, the wives come down and every, and you know, the families are together and they're one, you know, and they have when they win, they have doughnut free doughnuts and everybody has free coffee and everything is together.

That's community. Yeah. That's community. You know, in, in certain cities you can walk down the road and you can't even ask anybody directions to the light. It's a muggy. Right.

Yeah.

Geoff: Thanks. Yeah. It's sad. It's very sad. Yeah.

Scott: I think, and I don't know where this is. I read it. I've read the book, but I can't remember the stats, but there's a book called how full is your bucket.

It says that when we do something good for somebody, we feed ourselves and we feed the other person. When we do something negative to somebody, we take away from them and we take away from us at the same time. Being, being not so nice to people, but they say there's 20, 000 interactions a day 20, 000 that we have as human beings with other people.

I mean, this is a while ago, this is pre COVID, so I don't know if it's changed because we're less, we're [00:15:00] communicating less, as you say, something like working remotely and hybrid working and stuff. But even if you're walking down the corridor and you just smile at somebody. Right. Rather than just ignoring them.

It's that trigger,

Geoff: Scott. It's that trigger. Just that. That if you smile, you'll generally get a smile back because it's a mirror. And they may

Oakland: even stop and talk to you. Yeah, that's right.

Geoff: Oh, no, don't

Scott: want to do that. That's why they don't do it. It's like that. I know. I think I talked about this authenticity and stuff.

And I play, as you guys know, I play a lot around with language and stuff and about how we can, as long as we use it authentically language is really powerful.

Yeah.

Scott: And it's just adding the word really onto some sentences because we say, how are you? We don't really, it's socially accepted. Hello. It's not socially accepted.

We want the person to actually tell us they're having a crap day. Exactly. Just a polite. But if you then as a leader, just change to say, how are you really? Yeah.

Oakland: Well, yeah, I had a boss who retired a three star general. And when I first went and worked for him, we'd [00:16:00] walk past each other in the hallway and I was a captain.

He was a Lieutenant Colonel at that time. So, but he, he would, he, he, like one of the first days he said, Oh, how are you? And I said, fine. And I kept walking and he said, no, no, no. Come here. How are you? I want to know how you are. And he was asking me questions about my family, about my kids, you know just to get to know me, but he, he wouldn't accept that.

You just said fine and moved on. He actually wanted to know. And, and that stuck with me and I used that throughout my entire career. And you, you'd be surprised. How much difference that makes in, in the community of where you work. I, I back to people know that you actually care. You actually

Geoff: do. Yeah. I, I think that's the key.

You care and you, you, you, you know, I used to use another and another saying, kill, kill that negative, toxic discussion with kindness . Yeah. Right. Now I go back to what Scott said earlier because [00:17:00] he said that open, authentic, when you have an open, authentic human experience. The whole persona changes, right?

It, it might take you a little while and that's the point. It takes effort to create that and the environment to create that. But once you've created that, you have got a truthful Okay. Exchange of words, which creates sentiment, right. Which creates understanding. Okay. Well, I know it sounds silly, but to communicate should be one of the easiest things that we can do.

Right. Yeah, but we're not doing enough of it

Scott: and I think I'll take it back to what I said about understanding what we mean when we have talked about arguments and or debate however you phrase it. So for me, when we have arguments, we're trying to beat the other person when we're having a debate, we're trying to understand.

And I think that's chat with you

critical. I agree. From

Scott: a position of curiosity, not from a position of winning. And I think if we then add curiosity with care as a

Geoff: leadership. [00:18:00] Right. But to have a curious mind is to have a different mindset and to look at things on a segue into the title A different lens.

Yeah.

Oakland: Yeah. Cur well, and, and isn't that the, isn't that the key is to have that, that curiosity mindset that you wanna. Even if you disagree with somebody about something, I want, I want to know why you think the way you think. And you might, you might actually convince me, you know, going back to the debate piece, you, you might actually convince me, or at least you might move me a little bit toward your, your way, even if I don't agree 100%, or I might move you my way.

I mean, but, but unless you have that debate with an open mind, you're never going to get

Scott: there. I don't even mind if I don't move you, you don't move me, but at least I understand where you're coming from. So that gives me an understanding of you. It's important to you start to understand what's important to people and then once you get past that which goes on to that concept of principled negotiation.

Once you understand what's important for people, then we try to find [00:19:00] common solutions that mirror our values. I still go

Geoff: back to that curious mindset again because and what, what you said earlier about it's a privilege to be a leader. Right. I, I believe it's a privilege and an honor. Right. People also, you know, that are followers of leaders need a curious mindset.

They need a mindset that is out of the box in terms of thinking, if you're going to get the best out of your people, the challenges, no, I mean, challenges in a good way, the thought process provokes communication and dialogue, open dialogue, so that you can bring that kind of vision, mission, values, personality trait tone of voice, culture, it builds a culture, which, you know, if you can engage within a culture, then [00:20:00] you've got, you're addressing things like psychological self safety, wellness.

The human centered design piece in the workplace, and you've got more followers because that that high growth scenario that I'm describing is all about embracing change, embracing transformation, wanting to work with people to achieve things right and and community spirit for a better word. Wanting to do drinks, wanting to have coffee, wanting, wanting to have lunch together and, and, and to communicate and collaborate together.

What we're seeing now in meetings is that people don't just do meetings just on spec anymore. It has to be meaningful. If you've got a curious mind and you're challenging and you're thought provoking, you're going to create that curiosity and you're going to create that meaningful communication is what I'm trying to describe.

Oakland: Yeah. Well, I think, I think that part of the problem that we have today is. Because what you're describing, a [00:21:00] leader has to have an open mind, let people open debate, even against what you might think is the right way. You got to be able to put your ego aside. And look, we all have an ego. Anybody who tells you they don't have an ego is lying to you.

And we want people to have an ego because that's what drives you to be successful. That's what drives people to be the best at whatever they do. But good leaders, know when to put that ego aside and allow their team to express their opinion, their, their views, their needs. And then that's when you can make those compromises and say, okay, yeah, for the betterment of the team.

Cause that's what it's allowed. is the team will make this compromise. It is. I want it. It may not be exactly what you want, but it's in the middle where we can all live with it.

Geoff: That sounds a little bit strange. What I'm about to describe, but there was there was a record that was actually done for charity.

And I think it's, we are the [00:22:00] world. We are the world. And he got like all the famous musicians, artists. I mean, really, the really big guys together, all together in something like 30 hours to record a record. They never met each other. They got an easy and they're singing together. Michael Jackson was exit, but there was one thing when I watched the documentary, there was one sign on the door before they went into the studio, leave the ego behind you.

Right. And that was the one reason he got all of those answers to perform together. And to create one of a successful song, which went to number one, but also, more importantly, created money for the benefit. And you could argue that was community.

Oakland: Yeah, I agree. But, but you can't do it if, if the leader, if the leader and the people on the team can't put their ego aside for the betterment, [00:23:00] betterment of the team.

Scott: So it comes back, there's a book by Adam Grant called Give and Take, and he talks about the people who give without expectations of return. So I'm gonna do something because it's just, it's just the right thing to do, it's just being kind. And it can be simple. I love that book by the way, I've got it on my shelf.

It's a really good book. And I think one of the suggestions he has in it is really good, he said like, Obviously, we do now know that you gentlemen work internationally. That's been, that was at the beginning. So you work across time zones. So if you're meeting somebody and you know, they're in a different time zone, one of the give and take things he talks about is just telling them what their time zone is going to be.

Yeah. Okay. So

Scott: three o'clock in the UK, which is going to be this time you're I'm doing something to help them. Doesn't really help me find out. And those type of, again, I think a lot of this could be very small steps that we can take that can have a huge impact on even say really to somebody or say, Oh, by accepting find as an answer and asking those questions, it is an investment of time [00:24:00] on our part.

to deliver that because we have to go and find the time zones out or we have to give that person five minutes to listen to them and stuff. So we do have to invest time, which is one of the big reasons that when I talk to people about and leaders about this, but I don't have time. I don't have time, which comes back to make time.

Yeah. Slow down to speed up.

Oakland: Always slow.

Scott: Yeah. Always.

Oakland: Yeah. Because you, you have time for what's important to you. I mean, that excuse, I don't have time. I don't ever buy that. You have used your time in some other way, which may not be as important as what we're talking about. So you, you, again, it's mindset shift that, okay, I got to figure out where my priorities are.

What's important. What's really important. And that's where I'm going to. set aside some time to do that. Because, yeah, you're right. I mean, it really is that simple. And it's those simple little things that you do that start that ball rolling, that then can make a [00:25:00] big difference.

Geoff: Those tiny steps that you talk about.

builds trust. It's, it's small, there's small tiny steps that builds credibility all the way through. It's a part of the process. Actually, you could argue and say, actually, what you're doing is you're, you're, you're being an active listener. Okay. Really? Actually, I do believe in empathy and I do believe in compassion.

Okay. I understand you, which then I think builds on to how you communicate. And ultimately, that builds into a level of trust and purpose within the relationship.

Scott: I think the thing is these, these small things go back to that 20, 000 interactions that every single one will build a reputation for you as a leader.

positive. Very few of them are going to be neutral. There are going to be positive or negative. And I think it's those small steps we can do. But the key thing is the consistency of doing them. We can't just turn on off you guys. You say, there you go. We've got to, there are times when you've got to say, no, I'm right.

I'm the boss. This [00:26:00] has to happen. Absolutely. No, absolutely.

Oakland: Yeah.

Scott: But there are other times of being aware of it and say, right now, we've got time because we're not in a crisis because this isn't happening. I value your input. Let's go. Yeah. But not accepting fine as an answer is something you can consistently do every time you meet somebody who says fine.

And it won't take long before people say, I can't say fine to this person. They're not going to accept it. I'm going to, I'm actually going to have this conversation with them.

Geoff: I agree. My, my old boss used a very good analogy. He said, look when I go home to see my wife, I tell her I'm going to buy flowers.

She responds, don't, don't tell me again, you're going to buy me flowers. Buy me flowers,

Scott: you know, actions and words. So, and the key thing is, I think I was watching a YouTube clip of Stephen Covey, Mark Covey about he was talking about trust and he said to accelerate trust, you tell people why you're going to do something, you tell them what you're going to do and you deliver on those promises.[00:27:00]

Yeah, you set the expectations, but the why is important, which comes back to that mindset. Which means we've got to be also open and transparent. I hadn't said leadership isn't about or I can't trust them. I can't talk to him. I can't tell them stuff. We have to tell people stuff. I believe

Geoff: we live in a very complex environment, a very fast world that is about the treadmill, geopolitical, complex issues.

regulatory issues, economic issues. It doesn't matter which way we look. And the question I sort of said I would like to stimulate is if it doesn't come from the place of truth. What's the point where you're wasting your time if what you're saying to somebody isn't Isn't based on the truth. It's based on false deceptions and lies with short terms and no one can win Well, that's the point if we're as a society Can start actually being more open more transparent [00:28:00] more authentic We're going to be more engaging to others and we're actually going to do great things together because we're coming from a place You That we all recognize that's trusted.

Scott: I think you just look at the, now, somebody will say something and somebody says, that's just fake news. And they're just like, oh, fake news, fake news. This is that. And we, there's, so there, we, even as you say, at the political time, we don't have debate anymore. Somebody just said, yeah, that's just, it's politicized.

They're trying to do something. And the, the, nobody actually tries to uncover, you know what, let's just sit down and have a conversation. I think politics, political leaders aren't helping the situation.

Geoff: Isn't it the old days that we always looked up to government as, as, you know as a benchmark and, and, you know, businesses would measure, would measure, you know dictatorship as a model of operating a model of working now, now business, you know, like we all seem to be lost islands because we don't have anybody to look [00:29:00] up to.

Even, even in sport, we don't have those ambassadors that are true ambassadors. To what we do, you know, so I think what we have is small groups of people that are doing their best, their best against, against a tsunami of various distractions and various interactions to, to provide good and to spread the word and to, to provide that authenticity and that model of working.

But actually that's also disparaging when you think about it. You know, because we used to have, we used to look up to government, we'd look up to business and, and we would model that in the right way. But there are very few governments, business leaders in the world today that you could you could actually attribute that to one.

And two, a lot of those leaders are making very unquestionable decisions about things that do affect our lives. Yeah. I think, you [00:30:00] know, I think you hit it right on the head, Scott. I think it's the consistency and the transparency. So I think part of the reason that we don't have trust here in America, we don't trust anything.

Oakland: I mean, we don't trust our government. We don't trust the department of justice, the election, you name it. We don't trust it. And I think a lot of that is because of the lack of transparency of what You know, we don't know what it does and why it makes its decisions and it wouldn't be that hard to make it transparent.

So, so that begs the question, why isn't it transparent? Which then leads to the lack of trust. And so I think we gotta, we gotta work on that. If, if we want to make this world better, we gotta, we gotta fix the trust piece. Because you're exactly right, Scott. We don't, we don't. you know, somebody puts up that the first thing that comes to your mind is, well, that's not true.

That's against

Scott: what I believe is not true. And I think there is an opportunity though, because [00:31:00] of the institution, the erosion of trust in institutions, the opportunity of individuals or leaders is to actually say, well, we can trust has been decentralized. It's a way from, It's moving away to more. And that's why social media, I think, and people, you've got influencers and stuff that there is opportunities for individuals to have a bigger influence around trust.

And Jeff, as you were saying, go with that and have that and actually say, do you know what I can make more of an impact now, possibly than I could have done before of things like social media and tech is it's causing us some problems without a shadow of a doubt, but it's providing, it's providing opportunities for individuals to have a much bigger voice input.

presence, influence and presence you've had before. And you just look at, again, you can look at what's happened around the world. And last year you can see individual 100 percent rising and having a huge influence. Yeah. It's going on. So there are some opportunities, I think, for people to actually cut through it all and build that reputation of trust because people will generally say, you know, this [00:32:00]person has been open and honest.

It's transparent. I know where they're coming from. But

Geoff: you are right when you think the word consistency, you know, is really what everyone's looking for being consistent in the words in the what you say in your actions, you know, and, and if you want to build. Around that, it can only, it has to be consistent.

It's a tone of voice, it's a personality trait, it's, it's, you know, mind. It's, it's everything you do in life, you're measured by, you know, your last response, really, when you think about it.

Oakland: Yeah, my wife, my wife used to say, you know, when she, she was in charge in the nurse. When she was a nurse and in charge of the floor or the ER or whatever, she always said that her, she would tell her people that your first response can never be, no, it's well, let's look at that.

And then [00:33:00] let's actually look at it. And I may have to tell you, no, but that's not going to be my first response. And nor will that be your first response to somebody who asked for something. And that that's again, the consistency of. Let's, let's, let's debate it. Let's talk about it. Let's figure out, like Scott said, what, what is, what is your interest?

What is it that you're trying to do? And is that an interest for the whole community or is it just you being selfish?

Geoff: I've got something here. You know, there's a, there's a very interesting quote. You may have heard it. People say people may forget what you said, but they never forget how you make you feel.

Oakland: Absolutely.

Geoff: Absolutely. And that, and that really goes back to the very core of what we've been discussing. When you think about it,

Scott: because, yeah, go ahead, Scott, and just say, I mean, that thing about having that consistent behavior of nervous, your first response isn't no, you can consistently do that or never accepting fine as an answer.

You can consistently do that. And they're [00:34:00] examples of how we can, what we do, but consistency in a never changing world. Where do we get the consistency if the world

Oakland: is changing? Yeah, well, I think it has to be morals and values. That's what the consistent is. Anytime you got to make a decision, you got to go back to your morals and your values, which, you know, in the end, it's culture.

You know, the core culture of your organization, go back to that and make decisions based on that. And I think you'll be okay. If we explain to people why we've decided as well, absolutely the why, you know, when I go around, talk to people, I say, look, when I was a young man. in the army as a lieutenant and somebody told me to do something as long as it wasn't immoral, illegal, unlawful.

I never asked the question, why? I just did it. I said, yep. Yes, sir. And I went and did it. This generation wants to know why, and there's nothing wrong with that. It just took a couple of [00:35:00] years for this old man to figure out that there's nothing wrong with it. But I have found out that if you can convince them of the why, They'll do anything you want.

Geoff: I I look at the boards of directors and I look at what you've just said about morals and values. And I'd also, I look at the word I, you know, ethics, and I've also built ethic ethics committees on boards as well. And the importance of that, because when you're, when you think about corporate governance, everyone says the word corporate governance, but, and they might have a term of reference, which they, they basically want to apply themselves on.

But actually actions, the actions behavior is really how, you know, no big surprises if you don't enforce that in, in a, not enforce, but regulate that within a culture. Within a culture. Okay. How do you expect your senior management teams and your leadership teams to actually behave if you're, if you're acting irresponsibly and and corporate governance again, it's not once a month because you've got a board meeting.

[00:36:00] Corporate governance is 365 days a year, 24 seven. Okay. And, and, and again, it's if you look at really what trust is, Okay. Trust is an output of our behavior. But if you look at how we're behaving as a society and within societal behavior needs to change and, and, you know, communication, I think is a massive part on.

You know, on how we shouldn't we shouldn't have to. I mean, look, if you think about ESG, if you think about sustainability and all these other, actually, we shouldn't have to have a regular trees or jail frameworks around all of these things, because if we if our behavior was correct. We wouldn't need them.

We've got, we've got enforceable regulations because we're not complying to behaving in a certain said way. So, if we can fix behavior, we can fix [00:37:00] trust, we can fix collaboration, and we can deal with the why. Well, you know, I think you hit it right on the head there, Jeff. And, you know, so many companies and organizations have their defined culture or their values, and it's on the wall, so everybody can read it.

Oakland: That isn't a culture and that isn't values. You have to instill those things and enforce those things and encourage that type of behavior on a daily basis, not just put some words on a wall and say, that's my culture. That's my values. That's worthless. Absolutely. It makes them all look nice.

Scott: That's pretty much, I think there's two things here that I mean, is one of the things about behaviors is like, Jeff, change your behavior is great or encourage people to change behavior because we can't make anybody do anything. All we can do is influence people to make choices. Yeah. I agree with that. I agree.

Oakland: I agree with the [00:38:00] influencing factor. Yeah. And a way to do that, Scott, is with that consistent behavior. That's how you influence people. But I think also looking at behavior is, it's, it's, I can't remember, I'll say it, but I'll have to give credit to a giant guy called John Capel who's I've worked with who showed me this model and his situation plus attitude equals behavior.

Scott: So when we're looking at changing and encouraging people to change behavior, we've either got to look at the situation, can it change? If that can't change, what's my attitude towards the situation? And then those two combined will create a behavioral shift. So I think what we're talking about really is the attitude change.

We're in a business to make money. We're in a business to be sustainable. Okay. What's our attitude towards what success looks like? What's our attitude towards what's the priorities that we need to deliver as leaders. And if we can just shift that little bit, which again, it goes back to what we're saying in the beginning about the mindset.

Geoff: Right. Absolutely. Everything is mindset. If you look at Audrey Hepburn, who I think was one of the most successful female, female [00:39:00] actresses in Hollywood, she always said impossible. Well, actually that means I'm possible. And that was all about mindset. If you look at the successful NFL man coaches and managers in the game, it's all mindset.

That's the difference between the ice ball of getting getting a play and a win in minus 35 degrees of cold weather or losing the game.

Scott: Yeah, Colin Montgomery. I remember as a golfer when I was a kid, it was the world. Yeah,

Geoff: I remember Montgomery. Yeah.

Scott: I won a major. And it's the, and they say it's just, and it's just in sport.

And. Elite sport is not just about your talent. A lot of it is about how you approach things and, and psychological.

Oakland: Absolutely.

Geoff: Absolutely. Although I'm, I used to play tennis and I haven't played for a while, but I, I could be 40 love down. I could still win the game.

Oakland: Well, I, I think, you know, and, and that, that kind of reminds me of the [00:40:00] famous Henry Ford quote, you know, he said, he said, whether you think you can or you think you can't, you're right.

Yeah. I love that. It's all about your mindset.

Scott: Slightly, I mean, yes. And I think one of the key things for these, goes back to what you were saying, is one of the questions I talk a lot about these is, and they say, When you hear I can't do that, you say that's fine. Okay, so what can you do? Just that one question when people say that.

Geoff: Well, I would like to say that Henry Ford also said the plane takes off against the wind, but it still takes off.

Scott: Yeah. Are we just going, are we, this is the, are we going to end this on who's got the deepest quote? Are we going to restrict ourselves to a country or a person? I think one of the best quotes for culture, it goes back to a lot of what we're talking about.

A culture is defined by the worst behavior management allow.

Oakland: Oh, absolutely. Oh, yeah. Absolutely.

Scott: What we say is acceptable, but either not challenging.

Geoff: I would like to say that I think that when we start talking about [00:41:00] mindset, there is a paradigm shift that needs to take place in all leadership because leaders and how they behave and how they act has a direct influence, as we've already discussed, on the people.

And the reason why we've got so many disconnects is because we don't have the privileged and honored leaders that are, have followers, and more importantly, have direct reports that believe. And we've got probably one of the worst employee engagement. track records in commercial business. We've got probably the worst productivity hole I've ever seen in my life.

8. 8 trillion, 11 percent GDP. As I said before, that's more than Amazon, Apple and Google's turnover all put together. There are some horrific statistics from a research perspective that we can see. The one thing that [00:42:00] can change this is mindset. Right. And the question is whether our leaders of our Fortune 100s, FTSE 250, or even SMEs or startups, it doesn't matter.

It's, it's, it's always sitting with the chief exec or the founder. It's mindset. If we can change, if you have 10 things that are wrong, if we can change one of those aspects. We can affect change and we can affect transformation. Look, you can't bandaid some of these problems. You've actually got to start fixing these problems if we're going to make that societal paradigm shift that we all talked about during this conversation.

Scott: I think it's just that I'd like to put in. both from Gallup because I like Gallup because I do strength stuff. I am biased and I'll put that straight out there, but I do with this massively evidence based. According to them, 51 percent of people, it was either women or people in America are actively looking for new jobs, half the workforce.

And [00:43:00] the variation of employee engagement, 70 percent of variation of employees engagement is down to the leader. Yeah. I'd like to just give you another statistic when I did the trust report. Which is the IBM report that we carried out, 69 percent of everybody that was interviewed for that survey said, one, they did not believe in their chief executive officer.

Geoff: Or two, their line manager, 69%.

Oakland: Well, and I think that's the, all those things that you're talking about is, the reason for this great resignation that we we're seeing in the Western world is that people are fed up with it and 50, 51% of the American population's looking for the next job because they're tired of being treated the way they're being treated.

And it's all because, you know, in, in the Army we had this saying, and, and I, and I lived by it, and I did when I was in the army. In the civilian world, you know, [00:44:00] mission first, people always, okay, we got to finish the mission, whether you're a businessman, whatever, you got to make money. I got that. But if you, if that's the, the be all end all, and you don't take care of the people, you're not going to make money, or at least not as much as you could.

So you're not going to be a successful. So take care of the people and you'll be surprised what the, what the payoff in the end is. And we got to get, that's the mindset we got to have. It's a ripple effect. Is

Geoff: it, if you think about high growth versus low growth mindset, You can't compare toxic narcissism over here or collaboration and superior growth.

The companies that have affected a high growth organization, okay, have positivity, have engagement and have their performance numbers are second to none. I mean, I can look IBM, Uber Eats, you know, Ikea, all these companies adopt a high growth [00:45:00] Energetic approach to their employees, their engagement and their success stories on the other side

Oakland: that builds the trust and trust is the key.

But, but you know, I, I think that, you know, going back to what you said, Jeff, you might have 10 things wrong. And I think that a lot of businesses, a lot of leaders say, okay, I got to fix all 10 things. Well, you're not going to fix all 10 things, at least not right now. Pick one of them, fix it. And when that's fixed, go to the next one.

Go at it one at a time, a little bit at a time, because there's no way that you're going to get a buy in to fix 10 things with the people that you lead.

Geoff: What you're describing though is penetration. So if you, if you're able, rather than touching, you know, 10 things, pick that one, penetrate it and, and, and effectively performance manage it.

Because if you can fix that one silo, okay, you redesign it and continuous improvement [00:46:00] and you start on the second. So, you know, it's a process. It's a crisis. Absolutely. We're too much in a rush sometimes to try and fix everything and we end up actually fixing nothing. Really? When you think about it.

Scott: I think that's the silver bullet.

So although we say we do one thing that fixes everything, which is highly unlikely, it's a combination of stuff. But I'd, all I'd like to add to what you were saying is, and Jeff is fix the thing that's kind of the biggest impact first.

Yes.

Scott: The one that will influence, because there's certain things you'll look at that we talk about low hanging fruit and stuff.

But I say, what's the one that underpins others? So by fixing this, we're already starting to have an impact on the other ones. And then that's, you're looking for that connectivity of stuff. And so this, Yeah,

Geoff: but we're also in order to do that, we're looking for the right judgment call from the right set of leaders, because depending on who's actually going to review what that one Silo is that has the most impact may not be the one silo with the impact and [00:47:00] a lot of leaders will look at Their skills and what they believe they can do within the organization Rather than what's what's actually going to be good for the organization

Oakland: Doesn't that go back to the communication piece that if you got a lot of communication engagement If you got good communication with the people in your organization, they're going to tell you what the most important thing is You

Geoff: Yeah, correct.

But in all, not in all cases, do you get really good communicators at the top of the parade? Very seldom. That's, that's where it all falls down. Yeah.

Scott: I think what you were saying at the beginning as well is what we need to fix is it in my interest or isn't the greater interest of the community. And sometimes I say that, so yeah, this isn't my department, so we'll struggle a little bit longer, but if we do this, it's going to better the whole organization.

Yeah. Can we, can we sit ourselves, can we be more selfless?

Oakland: That's the key. It really is. As a leader, you've got to be selfless. You know, it, it isn't about you. It's about the people and the organization that you have the privilege to lead, [00:48:00] period. And we got to get back to that mindset. And I don't see a whole lot of that mindset out there today.

Geoff: No, I don't. I'm not seeing it. And as I said, I am seeing those a lot of leaders with some very unquestionable decisions that they're making, which is impacting the world in ways which I'm not necessarily sure is good for societal. It's good for everyone. And then there's another issue I'm seeing. I'm seeing globalization kind of fade.

In with the geopolitical piece just fading away I mean There are things that need to be addressed and we can I think we can only do that if we're communicating and talking together You know i'm sure there'll be a lot said at the world economic forum in davos Next year on the subject and more, but hopefully we've got the, we've got the leaders that will lead and we'll make better judgment, better decisions for each country so that we can actually start doing things in the right way.

Again, we'll see.

Scott: Okay. Well, on that note, that we're hopefully that [00:49:00] WBF, I don't mind them talking as long as I do something as well. Yeah, exactly. Goes back to what you said, like, yeah, just talk, talk, talk, but do something. Do something, yeah, exactly. Do something, because I think that's what people want. They just want some action.

Action. I

Geoff: want action. We all want action, right?

Scott: I might disagree with what you're doing, but if I understand why and I bought into the, and I understand the principles that are driving it, I will probably accept it and move with it. And if I don't, and if we don't communicate openly, all we do is leave a space for people to say, well, why, why are they, what are they hiding?

Yeah. This trust just, you're just feeding distrust that we know exists.

Oakland: I think our institutions can't exist the way they are right now. It can't. Society can't function with the way it is right now, with the trust level, the way it is right now.

Geoff: On boards of company, we've seen CPOs arrive, you know we now have the chief [00:50:00]trust officer being moved in to try and rebuild trust at board level.

For the organization. I'd like to see more of that. I think that if that's something we have to do and we have to have a trust framework within the organization to manage behavior and collaboration and and, you know, and so forth with certain frameworks, then so be it if that's what we have to do. But I would like to see that influence.

To grow that if I had a wish for 2025 that that would be probably not far from the top of my wish list because you know, I think that if we've got to do that, then let's then let's invest and do it right now. Let's not play at this subject. Let's not consider trust as a soft word. Actually, I can show you correlation straight to the bottom line as a direct result of mistrust within organizations.

So I think we need to embrace that within culture. We need to brace that within corporate governance in my, in my professional opinion. And, and, you know that's what I would like to see [00:51:00] happen going forward.

Scott: Okay. So we can do that. Can't we? It's new year coming up. Exactly. So what's your wish list for next year then?

So Jeff, you've said like taking trust and

Geoff: No, I'll just, I've got one more thing. Oak's coming over for the IBM. He's going to be the international speaker at our event. Next year? Yeah, June 26th. I'm very excited about Oak coming over. So yeah, he's going to be joined by Mr. Justin Crum, who's a UK Colonel, and I'm going to have them talking leadership and serpent leadership and community and And and and hopefully we're going to talk more about entrepreneurial leadership and mindset and and doing things.

So I'm very excited about that. So I just add that to my wish list. And that's good.

Scott: We're going to have a lieutenant and a lieutenant.

Yes, we are. Lieutenant and a Lieutenant. I'd like to add the colonel on the end. I

Geoff: will add I would stand in the middle [00:52:00] of

Scott: them.

Geoff: I would just stand in the middle. Yeah, exactly.

Scott: You say tomato. I say tomato, but there we go. So what would you like to say? One thing that you'd like to see next year? If we could.

Yeah,

Oakland: I think we got to. I would like to see leaders making decisions based on the good of the organization and the good of the people, not just themselves and not just business leaders, politicians, leaders at every level. And I, and again, I don't see that right now. It's like Jeff was saying, you know, questionable decisions.

If you look at it really close. It's probably in their best interest, not in the best interest of the organization or society or the country or whatever it is that they're leading. And we, so I would love to see leaders start making decisions based on the good of the people and the organization, not themselves.[00:53:00]

I think mine, I would love

Scott: leaders to be more curious with care. So curiosity and compassion. Yeah. Empathy. So just understanding. So on that note for our 2020, we can actually meet again in 2025 and says, did any of this actually happen? And then it doesn't actually happen. So I'd like

Geoff: you to diary this time, this date in your calendar, Scott,

Scott: the three of

Geoff: us can actually debate what actually did happen in 2025.

Yeah,

Scott: exactly. I just hope culture and people become much more central to how organizations work. As customers, clients, and the people who work in them, and not just about short term money, that would be quite a shift. Yeah, it would be. I'd say about what success looks like for us, and who we serve in it.

There we go. Okay, gents, it's as always been an absolute pleasure, and thank you very much Geoff, and thank you very much, Oak, for your time. And I might be there on the 22nd of June as well, so I might, I might 26th actually. You can be there on the 22nd

Geoff: if you like, but I mean, you know, I could probably be having some drinks [00:54:00] pre the event on the 22nd, but I could do that as well.

I could do that as well.

Scott: Yeah. I'm quite happy with that one, that's not fine. That's okay. I've written it down to the 26th in my little notebook here as well, so Obviously, it's landing at six o'clock this morning and still. Right again, so thank you very much, gents, for your time. It's been an absolute pleasure.