Being Genuinely Interested can’t be Faked

Join Ben Zang and Myself as we discussed the importance of building relationships and listening in sales. We talked about the concept of a one-on-one meeting and how to make it successful by being genuinely interested in the other person and allowing them to talk about themselves. We also touched on the importance of being useful and creating value for others. Overall, our discussion emphasized the power of trust, empathy, and genuine connection in the sales process.

Contact Ben -

LinkedIn – https://www.linkedin.com/in/benzang6/

E-mail – ben@THBWI.com

 

Leighann Lovely: Welcome to another episode of Love Your Sales. I am joined by Ben Zhang. Ben is a unique problem solver with a two decade career in sales, he has spoken for organizations like Financial Planners Association of Wisconsin and Wisconsin CPA Association. He has given talks on small business networking and sales training.

Ben, I am so excited to have you join me today.

Ben Zang: I'm [00:02:00] super glad to be here. Thanks for having me.

Leighann Lovely: Yeah. So why don't we dive in you and I prior to, um, hitting the record button, talked a little bit about, you know, what we wanted to dive into. And one of those was, , proper way to do a one on one.

And I would love to, you know, talk a little bit about that.

Ben Zang: So I think all salespeople need to do networking because it's always going to come down to relationships. Right. So how do you do that? I spent a lot of time thinking about and intentionally thinking about how to do a one on one. And I don't know if you're familiar with, like, chess clock.

If you push down your side, the other side comes up. Okay. And so when they talk, So I, I look at one on ones like a chess clock, and hopefully, if I've done it right, and there are some exceptions and I'll [00:03:00] talk about it, but hopefully if I've done it right, their chess clock will have moved a lot more than mine, because people are interested in people who are interested in them, so I think it makes a big difference how you're, um, how you present yourself and how you're listening and things like that, and I find if you can get people talking about themselves, And show them that you're actually enthusiastically, uh, invested in their success.

I think they become more invested in yours. And so I have found the best relationships kind of stem from those one on ones where I've done a good job of communicating my investment. And so the chess clock back and forth is something I keep in my brain to, to know if I'm doing the, the yeoman's way of.

Yoman's talking, [00:04:00] like, I'm talking more than they're talking, it's, it's a problem. Unless, of course, they're an introvert, and then they, introverts tend to use others enthusiasm, Um, to kind of ride along, like, they don't want to drive the boat. They just want to be a passenger, and they like the sunshine. So, sometimes that's, that's how it goes, too.

But, you can kind of feel that out within the first five minutes.

Leighann Lovely: That's, that's wildly interesting. And when, when you had mentioned the, the chess clock theory, I was, I was kind of going, I don't get it, but that completely makes sense because it also goes back to, to Dale Carnegie, what, how to make friends and influence people, right?

Um, it's the whole idea that, you know, people inevitably, they want to, they need, want, Uh, to talk [00:05:00] about themselves, they, there are certain things that as a young salesperson coming up, I was taught of use their name because the, the most beautiful word in the world to most people is their own name, right?

And then if you allow, or if you give somebody the opportunity to talk about themselves, they're at the end of the day, typically. And, and again, going back to what you just said, an introvert, this may not hold true, but if you have, if you give them the opportunity to, to talk about themselves, to even vent, often, often I find that when I'm sitting across from somebody, they just want the opportunity to be heard.

Sometimes vent about whatever's going on in their lives, um, or in their, in their business. And if, if they're talking more than you are and you're hearing and listening and then [00:06:00] prompting off of, you know, follow up question, follow up comment to what they are actually saying to you, that person typically walks away going, wow, that was such a great conversation.

And you're like, yeah, it was such a great conversation. And in reality, you know, a true. A salesperson will feel that way as well because they're like, wow, I just, I got some really great information. I either can use this to leverage this relationship in a positive manner and, you know, push, pull it forward or push it forward to something else.

Um, it's, it very similar to, you know, what Dale Carnegie, you know, has very intertwined in his entire book about, you know, about the same thing.

Ben Zang: Yeah, I totally agree. And I think that the thing my wife always says, she's like, you're genuinely interested in [00:07:00] people. And I think one of the biggest gifts you can give somebody is to bear witness to their life.

And sometimes it's, you know, sometimes it's crapshoot what's going on and, and sometimes it's all put together. You know, but I think to bear witness to somebody is, is to, in the greatest sense of the word, I think love. Right. So that kind of outward demonstration of knowing somebody, to feel known is quite the gift.

And so I think in those moments where people walk away and they're like, man, he's such a good guy, or man, he, that was such a great time. You know, um, I think it's because they feel like they were a part of something and they were seen. And I think that's, it's very strong. I think salespeople. Especially because we're big talkers, right?

So we forget that part, you know, we've got our own agendas in our heads. And I [00:08:00] think. If we don't realize the power that that is, I think we, we missed the boat.

Leighann Lovely: Salespeople never talk. What are you talking about? My, my husband and I had a conversation this weekend. He said, um, he goes, well, you know, salespeople are just, they just be ass all the time and I got very offended.

I said, no, no. I said, there may be times where I'm introduced to somebody and, and they're like, Oh, how you doing? It's so great to see you. And I have, I'm a blank, I'm blank. I have no idea. I'm, I'm, I'm in my brain going through my Rolodex of who is this person? Who is this person? Like apparently we know each other and, and I will fake it for a moment.

Until they say something that triggers the memory and I go, Oh, and he goes, well, that's BSing. And I said, no, that for a moment is me, you know, kind of [00:09:00] doing the fluff until it's triggered, you know, to, to that moment in time. And, and he says, well, you know, all salespeople BS. And I said, not the ones who truly.

I said, yes, there's a certain amount of fluff that we, that we throw in because I can't remember every single person until there's that trigger, right? I said, but the true, true salespeople, the servant hearts, and, and I just had this convert conversation with, with, you know, Pat Riley, um, on, on a previous episode, the true salespeople who lead, um, with, with, Um, you know, love, if, if that's the word, who lead with compassion, who, who truly want to help their, either their network or their clients, they do actually care.

And so [00:10:00] sometimes for a moment you're going, Oh God, where, who is this person? And so, yes, maybe it is perceived as, Oh, BSing for a second. But in reality, it's. I need to trigger myself to remember and when I do, I go, Oh, yes, but there are other times where I go, Oh, I'm so sorry. Where did we meet again? But I meet.

Um, Ben, how many people do you meet in a day? I don't

Ben Zang: know, anywhere from 10 to 100, give or take, depending on the day. Right. Right? Right. I also think that moment that you're talking about is trusting. There's a relationship here, I can feel it, I just, my brain can't pick up where it was from. And that, I think it takes a minute sometimes, especially in our worlds.

And I think that if, I mean. The BS, so to speak, that, that other people perceive it. I think it's just because they don't understand [00:11:00] what sales truly is. And I think it's a natural thing. I think even your husband would say there are times he can't remember people he's come across. It's just natural. You know, I think people that don't understand sales as being servants, salespeople are servants, you know, you're serving both your client and your customer and your community.

And I think the best ones. Create a community where everybody wants. I know it's cliche, but I truly,

Leighann Lovely: truly believe it. No, and I love that statement. I absolutely love that statement because I know a community that does just that. I know multiple communities that are all You know, circles that all intertwine of different people who are, you know, doing that, you know, simultaneously within all of [00:12:00] those different communities that, that continuously are giving back and obviously, yes, there is a benefit because from that they are continuously getting referrals doing those one on ones.

And so now I'm going to loop back. You mentioned a little bit about an introvert. I think they're

Ben Zang: differently equipped, like the best, um, best example or the best definition I've heard about an introvert to extrovert, an extrovert needs the interaction to energize and an introvert, it takes energy away.

And so it. If you think about it, taking energy away, and then how can you create energy within those conversations? Um, and sometimes that's about getting them to open up, and sometimes that's just about entertaining them enough that they can just relax. [00:13:00] Because I've seen many an introvert just sit, read a book, unwind, watch a TV program.

And sometimes it's just about sharing, uh, an entertaining antidote that they can turn off and there's no pressure to interact with it, right? This is just a story. When we were kids, we used to listen to a teacher read a book. And so it's giving those kinds of pauses within the conversation to give them a minute to kind of recharge and to let them know.

I got this. You sit back. I'll drive the boat for a while. You just get some sun on your face. Right? So I think that's important, you know, and then there's the over extroverts and they're going to talk. They're going to give you their pitch. It's a 30 minute one on one and you're going to get 30 seconds of it at the end.

Right? And how do you handle that? And I've had people who did that. And then I'm like, well, they're going to remember. They won't even know what I did. I think they may remember my name, [00:14:00] but I got a 30 minute interview. And I think for those people, you have to find out what's their objective and then how do you fit in, you know, if they're all about growing and sales and getting connected to people, then I think you interject them enough to say, Hey, I can connect you to here, here and here, just so that they, they see some value.

The biggest thing on the one on one is how are you creating value? And when I was a young salesperson, I thought I had to be the only value in the conversation. And now as I've wisened up or gotten better at my craft, I realized that the Rolodex of people I bring with me is a great value. And I, and I don't underestimate.

Leighann Lovely: So what would you say to, and. You know, I, I try to remind people when you go [00:15:00] on a one on one, it is not about pitching. It's not about pitching and, and I, I have gone on one on ones before where before I've even sat down in a lunch one on one where before I've even sat down, we're standing in line and the person is already practically pulling out their pitch deck and like, and I'm going, Oh shit, should I take an emergency phone call and like, excuse myself, like this is going to be an hour of It's a bad date.

It is a really bad date. Yeah. I didn't know that I had to have somebody pretend to call me to exit this, this date, like really quickly. What advice would you give to, to individuals who are a little, and I'm, and I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna, I don't want to pick on those individuals because there was a time when we [00:16:00] were all there when we didn't realize like, Oh.

We didn't set this meeting so that I could pitch you for the next hour on why you should buy my stuff.

Ben Zang: I think, I think you have to understand the difference between a one on one and a sales call, right? So, I think they're not, they're not the same at all. And I think if you're trying to sell during a one on one, I think you've missed the boat.

I think one on ones are, are about two things. I think they're firstly about the relationship and secondly, how are you useful? So when you and I talked back in your previous career, I'd say, look, these are the things I can do for the people you're talking to, just so you know, right? And that was a small part, but I think if you don't give at least that much of your pitch, then, then it's just a social call,

Leighann Lovely: right?

Right. Hey, you want a

Ben Zang: beer? We're just [00:17:00] hanging out and as fun as you are. My boss probably won't like that, right? Whoever I'm selling for, things like that. Or if it's after hours, you know, I have a wife and kids that probably would like my time too. And, and so I think it's that comes back to that intention of what you're doing, right?

So, um, how can I be useful to the people you're serving? And I think because in a sense, and I've gotten kind of slapped on the wrist when I've said, You know, I look at people sometimes like tools in a bag, who's useful for what, how, what problem can they help my people with? And because I'm act, I'm trying to actively listen to everybody I come in contact, then if I hear, Oh, problem A, well, I have this person who's amazing at problem and now I can be of service because I can make that introduction.

So I think, I think that's really, and then the relationship too, right? People do business with [00:18:00] people they like and trust. Right. And how do you build up that trust? You don't build it up by, you know, pitch slapping somebody, right?

Leighann Lovely: I like that pitch slapping. Yeah, that's great. So So, And, and, and to your point, yes, we, the, it sounds harsh.

It does sound harsh. Um, I'm, I'm not going to lie, Ben, um, but you're, you're correct. In your tool bag, who, who can you pull out that is useful in what situation, but it's true, does not minimize the relationship that you've built with them at all.

Ben Zang: Correct.

Leighann Lovely: Exactly. Um, and that, and that is the value of getting to know people.

And the reason that we do one on ones is so that we understand their [00:19:00] business. You and I have understood each other's business. What you do and the service that you provide, the, the size businesses that you serve, the, the individuals that you serve, I understand that so that when somebody comes to me and says, Leanne, I need help with X, Y, Z, I can go, Oh, well, I have a guy.

Yeah. I know a guy. Uh, and that is, that is wildly beneficial for me to be able to, especially when I'm working with somebody, to go, uh, well, I can help solve your problem. Let me make an introduction. That builds trust immediately with my client in even You know, even further because now they're saying, Oh, wait, Leanne can help me with not only the problem that her and I are working through, but she can go a step further and make introductions to three other people that could [00:20:00] potentially assist me with all of these other things.

And I

Ben Zang: tried to make a business on being the guy that at least knows the guy because, and I have told when I've coached young salespeople before, I said, look, If you're the guy that knows a guy or a gal that knows a gal, right, you will always be in the conversation. Right. And I think salespeople, that's our big win, is being a part of the conversation.

Correct. Right? So,

Leighann Lovely: advice that you would give Um, you know, this, this really leads right into the advice that you would give to a young salesperson coming into the crazy world of sales.

Ben Zang: So I think the biggest struggle young people have, especially young people when they come in is they, they sit across the desk and the person they've sat across the desk for has more experience in their industry than they have yours on the plant.

Right. Right. [00:21:00] What am I going to teach this guy? First off, the fact that you have been hired by a company, trained by a company, and given something from a company to sell means you're already more of an expert than 90 percent of the people you're dealing with. And so, I would say, just understand that that's the case, and you're gonna need at bats.

So, go out and fail a lot of times. Like, all, like, fail forward, Denzel Washington's big thing, right? Right. It's so cliche. But the, the non cliche things I would say is Be interested in your clients. If you're genuinely interested in somebody, people will understand that and trust them. I'd say, um, learn the success stories of your business quickly and, and have them at the, the top of your, at the tip of your thumb.

So if I'm talking to somebody and I can say, Oh, well, I just did something like this for another [00:22:00] company and it saved them X amount of dollars or it created this. Because people don't remember facts and figures, they remember stories. And so if you learn how to talk in stories, I think that's a big thing.

And I think the other thing is, is people underestimate enthusiasm. Nobody likes to have a conversation where the guy just talks so slow, right? Nobody wants that. Have a point. You can literally feel your life sucking down the toilet. I will never get those minutes back. Yeah. You, you've

Leighann Lovely: seen the movie Planes, Trains, and Automobiles, right?

Right. You remember, you remember there's, there's the scene there in the hotel and he's like pulling the, the, the, and he goes, I have an idea. When you tell a story, have a point. Yeah. Exactly. This is what just popped into my head. Like have, have a point. Make sure that when you are telling those stories and [00:23:00] you're, they, they need to have an, a, like a punchline, like a point, like, and I'm not talking about jokes, but you know, they need to, they need to lead somewhere.

I don't want to hear, Hey, you know, today was a snow day. Okay, what's the point?

Ben Zang: Right.

Leighann Lovely: Where, where's the point? What is, why is it relevant to me? And that's where, you know, that's where so many salespeople, I feel like in the beginning, they just throw out random facts, not relevant to the client sitting in front of them.

Right. Yeah, I agree. Just telling random things about your product.

We

Ben Zang: can save you X percentage, right? As soon as you get to, we can save you X percentage. You're done on what you're, [00:24:00] you're just done , right? This guy's like, oh my God. I mean, you might as well go Sunday, Sunday, Sunday. Live at the, like, it's, you're just done, right?

So learn how to talk to somebody. Like, they're like, they're in the the room. I had a sales coach who would say. Be bold, be brief, and then be gone. Right? They gotta, they have to get on their day. And I think, um, one of the things that I think young salespeople forget is they think closing is manipulation.

And so what I would say is, is closing is asking the girl for the date. And all of us have been in that conversation where we've tripped over our tongue and we've not asked the girl for the date. Or we've not asked the guy for the day or, you know, and while you're sitting there, both parties and understand what's going on and neither of them are getting to the point, it's painful [00:25:00] to learn how to close, right?

And if you're not sure, there's a ton of books out there. And they're all going to sound like cheesy pickup lines, but understand the purpose of

Leighann Lovely: them. I once worked with a saleswoman, um, early on in my career. And I remember the first time I went out on a sales call with her and she literally, she presented all of the information.

She gave all of the value proposition beautifully. I mean, I had, she was like a ballerina dancer present, you know, doing the show of her life. And at the end, she goes. So you're ready to buy from me? And they went, Yep. She goes, Perfect. I'll get the paperwork over and I just, we walked out and I went, Oh my God.

Like, she goes, Why sugarcoat it? Why, you know, I presented everything. I presented the pricing. And when she presented the pricing, it was, it was just, Here's how [00:26:00] much it's gonna cost. Do you have any questions about that? And just, she just sat there and waited. The room was silent, and I was so wildly uncomfortable.

And I'm like, Oh God, like, is a fight gonna break out? And they're like, Uh, no. And then she goes, okay, you're ready to, you're ready to buy. You ready to move forward? And they're like, uh, yeah, I mean, we walked out and I was like, Oh my God.

Ben Zang: I'm in awe of this woman. Yeah. When you watch it done well, as you're, as a young salesman, you're like.

Leighann Lovely: I'm like, how did you do that? Like, can you teach me? Yeah. I mean, she just, every time I watched her, I was in awe. She closed so many sales and she was probably the harshest woman, like the way she talked, not, not on sales calls, but [00:27:00] like she was so matter of fact. So blunt. So, like, if she was a nurse, she would have zero bedside manner.

But when it came to going in and doing a pitch, there was, it was cut and dry. Like, here's what we have to offer. Here's the value proposition. Here's how we're going to help you. This is why you should do this. This is, do you have questions? Okay. Here, here's how we're going to overcome this. I mean, she was brilliant.

And I I've, I don't know that I've ever seen anybody close, close, close, close, close, close, close like she did. It was unbelievable.

Ben Zang: I think as you get better on your craft, I had a good friend of mine who was very, a very good salesman. He's like, I am trying to pick myself out of the deal as fast as humanly possible.

And I, that never made sense to me in the beginning. And then he's like, because I want to know, is the customer right for me or are they not right for me? It's better for both [00:28:00] sides to know up front. And so it kind of goes back to that kind of unrequited love is a, is a B. I don't know if we can use the word on the podcast or not, but it is like, and you don't want to be the one on the other side of the unrequited love and the person who doesn't requite your love or whatever, however you say that.

They don't want to be in that position either. I've been in sales calls where what I, what I do doesn't fit them. And it's very clear it doesn't fit them. And so I've been like, you know, it sounds like We're not a good fit and here's why I would say that and so what I would say is maybe this is something that's part of your growth trajectory and we can revisit this or maybe this is a better fit for what you guys are doing.

I don't have to be the end all be all for [00:29:00] everybody. I mean, that would be amazing. Right. My pocketbook would love that. It's not true. You know, and I'd much rather be honest, then. Then be put in an awkward position later on

Leighann Lovely: down the line. Right. And there have been times where people have reached out to me and I've met with them.

They've gone over what their needs are. And I flat out said, I am not the right sales person for what you're looking for. I just, I, I wouldn't be your, you want XYZ. This is how I work. We would not be a match. I can try to help refer you to somebody who would be a match for you, but this, this is not, it's not how I do business.

It's not how I work. I, I mean, I wouldn't, there have been times where I wouldn't even have an alternative solution for what they're looking for. Then there have been other times where I'm like, I can come [00:30:00] up with a, you know, and my product is customizable for people. But when you know that it's just flat out, Sorry, this just is not a match.

It's better to, and on the flip side of that, I wish customers when they know, like, I'm not going to move forward with you. I would so much more like I would. And this goes back to the very first episode with Sarah Bauer, when her and I talked the, the greatest thing in the world is yes. The second best thing in the world is a no.

The worst is a, I don't know. Or, uh, I'm never going to let you know,

Ben Zang: I literally tell people, look, my job is to bring you ideas. Your job is to say, no, I make, I, I, I put it up front. Very clear. Look, your job is to say no. And, and people are always like, you say that. And I'm like, yeah, because one, it builds trust.

Because I'm not, they understand [00:31:00] now this is my job. I'm doing my job. Your job is to say no. Now the roles are clear in our relationship, right? Right. It's not, you're not stuck at, like, if you're in the friend zone, then be in the friend zone. If you're on the dating track, be in the dating track. Don't be somewhere in, in between.

And I think as long as those things are defined and you as a salesperson are in charge of that. They've taken your call. So now they've taken whatever, they've said yes to whatever, whether that's the 60 second pitch on the phone, whether that's the face to face time, they've said yes. So now your job is to define what's going to happen in that moment.

And the customer has every right to say, yeah. And your job then is to then continue the relationship, even if it's in a no situation. Because I've had people who didn't buy from me in the past. We've come back and said, now I'm ready for you. [00:32:00] Right. And I think that's, that's the biggest thing.

Leighann Lovely: Right. So we've come to a point in, um, the show where you now have your, um, shameless 30 second pitch.

Shameless 30

Ben Zang: seconds. Yes. Ben. So shameless 30 second plug. So here's what I do. I problem solve benefits for companies. I do a lot of, um, interesting and creative ways to solve that problem. And so I was a business owner myself, your people are kind of your bread and butter. And so what I do is I help businesses take care of their people, either through health insurance, dental, vision, short term, long term, all that kind of insurance stuff that nobody thinks is sexy.

I make it sexy and I kind of help you figure it all out. Um, it's long, it's boring, but I don't make it so. So, it's, I think education is [00:33:00] one of those things on those big scary topics that really makes a difference both to an owner of a business and to the individual within the business. And so. I've built my practice on creating that education and making it so people aren't intimidated.

So that'd be my 30 second pitch. I think that was like 90 seconds, but,

Leighann Lovely: Oh, I'm, you know, and so you are with transition benefits and, um, if you are looking to reach out to Ben, how would you go about doing that? So

Ben Zang: I actually, it's, people think it's stupid, but I actually give out my cell phone. Um, so you can call me 4.

Or you can email me at ben at transition or THBWI. So it's ben at THBWI. com. And then you can find me on LinkedIn. Um, you can find me all over. So I network like a madman sometimes. [00:34:00] So.

Leighann Lovely: Excellent. Well, Ben, Hey, I really appreciate this conversation. I think it brings a great deal of value for, you know, the, some of the younger generation entering into the sales force.

And again, I really appreciate your time today.

Ben Zang: Thanks for having me, Leanne. You're always a blast. So I would do this again in a heartbeat.

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