Kanwar Gill graduated with a Master of Teaching from the University of Teaching and is an OCT certified teacher. He has been teaching for 10+ years, including being a Computer Science Teaching Assistant at the University of Toronto and tutoring students one-on-one. He has several years of experience as a software developer before transitioning to teaching.
In this episode, Pouya sits down with Kanwar to talk about the impact of Covid on education and the path forward to a better future for education.
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
students, parents, platform, teachers, learning, happen, education, school, kid, feel, online, big, home, uncertainty, impacted, situation, class, place, people, technology
SPEAKERS
Pouya LJ, Kanwar
Pouya LJ 00:17
How's it going? Guys? How are you? Oh, pretty good. It's been a while we haven't had a podcast in I think a little over a year or about a year. I don't recall when it would leave.
Kanwar 00:28
So yeah, I think I should call it has changed a lot.
Pouya LJ 00:31
Yeah. And it feels long. Actually, I was thinking it's probably even less than a year. But you know, it feels much longer.
Kanwar 00:38
Yeah. Yeah, a lot has happened a lot for sure.
Pouya LJ 00:43
And, and a lot is going to happen, I reckon with the remainder of COVID with the US political, you know, weather election or whatnot. And who knows what else is 2020? Preparing for us?
Kanwar 00:58
Yeah, no, no, it's, it's, it's a pickle. It's kind of like not knowing what's going to happen, but just people still need to, you know, like, economy still has to go up. And it's, it's, I think it at this point, it kind of hinges on the vaccine, which we know a lot of companies are getting close to, hopefully, something will be done. And I think the vaccine would bring in some sense of peace and security for people as I go about, you know, their day to day tasks. True.
Pouya LJ 01:35
No, that's true, I think. I mean, until then, I don't I think that sense of uncertainty, as you put it is going to be, you know, having a lot of influence on on how people think and feel, and live decisions made politically by the officials. I mean, all of that are impacted by that sense of uncertainty. You're absolutely right. And with that, actually, that brings us to one of the fields that obviously, like everything was impacted by this phenomenon of COVID. But we're going to talk about today about education and how that's been impacted, because that's your wheelhouse. You've you work in that space, you read in that space, study, research, etc. So what I mean, obviously, a lot has changed. But if you were to, if you were to give us an intro to how education has changed, from your perspective, how would you describe it?
Kanwar 02:34
Um, good question. In terms of education, I mean, the instant need off, this is learning, online learning has skyrocketed, which has led to big changes in the industry. So you would have teachers, for example, in the public school, who probably don't, you know, they don't go towards online learning. But now they have no other option. And they have to, they have to get on it. And so that's one thing. Let's give me a second. Sure. So that's one thing for sure. That has changed. So you'd have these teachers who have to now understand how the online platform works. Zoom, for instance, you know, the US we're using zoom right now, for this podcast. We know how much the need for zoom instantly increased throughout the world. Right? Yeah. And not just in education, industry, but also in other from you name, small businesses, big businesses. Everyone has been using it. And that's a, that's a feel quite the nature of having something like COVID, which is an immediate, you know, like danger in a sense. We know that the death toll has now increased more than a million. So a lot has happened. And people you know, the second wave, as was announced by the Premier of Ontario, which has started officially. So, again, a lot of insecurity has led to online learning. That has been the biggest shift, in my opinion. And that's what I've seen as well. If you look at any sort of any sort of job postings, any sort of in the education field, any sort of hiring happening, there's some aspect of what you're learning attached to it now.
Pouya LJ 04:55
Oh, that's true. And I think a year ago, more than Have two people who are using the platform, let's say zoom currently haven't even heard of it. Yeah. And that shows you how much reliance it has. Because a lot of people who could work from home, they were working in offices perhaps and in different industries. Now, the the we're basically encouraged and forced to work from home. And while they are having to interact with each other holding meetings, perhaps, and how do you do that with tools such as Microsoft Teams, or, or Skype or zoom? zoom is one of the platforms is doing pretty great because of its quality and reliability, I suppose. And I believe that education, education, field also has came to embrace it, whether it's teachers from like holding their school classrooms at the end of the day. So at the end of last school year, which was the beginning of COVID, and lock downs, I suppose, in around March and April, I think everything had to move into online platforms, at least in Canada. Yeah. And I think, probably most of the world, I suppose, and, or halted, at least, depending on where you happen to reside. So did you did you have a first hand experience of how that affected students and teachers alike?
Kanwar 06:20
Um, definitely. So at the time, I was finishing my master's. Back in March, I mean, March, April, timeframe. And so I was working in a school at the time, as part of my program, doing some teaching, and also, you know, learning in that environment. And this was right, I got really lucky, actually. Because,
06:49
right,
Kanwar 06:50
before the March Break, is when I finished working in the school, and right, at the March Break, is when the premier made the announcement that the schools are not going to be opening again. So I didn't impact me, from that classroom experience point of view, I was able to have all of that done. But what happened is, schools did not go back after my trip. So they had it in, in theory, data, really extended mushrik now, and in this time, the, the province was figuring out what to do. Which means a lot of things were changing, right? So the parents, for instance, they couldn't, depending on where you work, employers were telling you to just work from home, parents were had to figure out how to do homeschooling. So there was no structure in place that Okay, these other resources, you can use, periods have to figure out, Okay, now I have to work my kid at home. And I was I also need to do my own work. So it's kind of like a pickle, right? That was a biggest change that happened. And I'm sure the students reacted a lot differently. Because now they're just home. Before there's something to look forward to, right in terms of going to school, they have this social circle, they interact, something to do outside of home, right. And that changed drastically for for everyone. And that was the immediate change that happened at the time. And that continued for a few weeks, before they decided they're not going to open the schools and online learning is the way to go. And at that point, teachers had to where they had to figure out in the current systems, a lot of teachers would be using Google Classroom. And there's another platform called Brightspace that is used, especially in the GTA area. And they have to basically figure out, Okay, now, you have to put everything on the platform so students can learn. And then some teachers decided to do online office offers where students could come in, ask questions, obviously, teachers would have started getting a lot of emails from the students now. Before that wouldn't be the case as much. So responding to that, I heard a lot of teachers in my own circle, who were definitely been bombarded with a lot going on. And it led to a lot of, you know, stress in terms of time management, okay. Like, there's the nine to five was blurry. It's not like you're working starting in the morning. It could be replying to emails in the in the evening. And you have to make sure you're supporting the students. So it was what it was. And that's how the school year continued. And now we have that's pretty much what happened during this summer. While the province was figuring out what to do with the entire city.
Pouya LJ 10:01
Right. Yeah. And so yes, that and that was probably the speed of onset uncertainty, that was the time of absolute uncertainty because we didn't even know what we're dealing with. Yeah, in terms of the virus in terms of how to and you were right, we, we didn't have resources in place, right. Like right now, there is a degree of preparation, even if the classes are in person, depending again, depending on where you are, maybe the classes are still online. But like, as of now, I believe nothing has changed. Because things changing very quickly, in Ontario, people are going in person with some consideration to schools, but there is a degree of preparation that schools, students and teachers, everybody has in their mind that they might even go back to fully online again, or right now, maybe part partially is online, like, for example, two things are happening online, most of it at least, at least as much as possible. So yeah, so there are the the speaking of uncertainty, that was the absolute of it, I suppose the or the maximum of it, as we experienced during these times. Now, we talked a lot about prospective teachers and parents and, and a little bit students. But did you did you hear any immediate feedback of how students were taking this? This this whole thing?
Kanwar 11:20
Yeah, it's, uh, you know, it's it's students for them, you could imagine that I'm just learning online, especially for somebody who was not engaging with technology or learning through technology. In the past, it was a big, big shift, right. And those students absolutely hated online learning, because part of it was doing something that was given to them through the online platform with their parents, and they absolutely hated working with the parents. Because they just want to get out of that kind of environment. And that was definitely a struggle, even at the time. I remember, Google Classroom, which is one of the big platforms, they even have a an app right on, depending on iOS, or Android. And at the time, back in March, April, and this was through North America, as far as I know. Lot of students started giving really poor feedback to that app on the App Store. So the actual star rating went down for Google Classroom. And students absolutely hated it. And that was, you know, quite evident of, Okay, what the students are feeling or they're feeling that this is something that is not a substitute for their experience, or the platform is just missing a lot, right? Like, I'm checking right now on on App Store, and Google Classroom has 160,000 ratings. And the rating that I see right now is 1.6, out of five. Oh, wow. So that's, yeah. And then this app is rated number one in education. So definitely, there's, I'm sure Google took a lot of that feedback, and started to make changes, because they're like, well, if students are really hating, they don't like how it feels. All that, but not to be honest, not much has changed the platform. So they just made minor changes. And students still feel the same. In terms of online learning. Currently, the students that are going to school, and parents realize that it's important for the students, you know, the kids to go to school, because even in the midst of COVID, as long as the safety protocols in place, right. And that's, you know, that's a good expectation to have. You can't rely on that expectation to be followed through entirely, right. So that's something it's it's you don't know what's going to happen. But you have good faith, and you're going to send your kid to the school. And that's what's happening. That's what happened when the schools open again in September, with safety protocols in place, but again, like I said, before, looks like and it's a little, again, create creates a bit of an E an ease, because what's happening again, is like, we feel the structure is missing. show their students in school, you know, the safety protocols, they say, but what's happening is if the students Feels a certain way, the teacher would typically just tell them that, okay, I can't I don't know what's going on. But you can be in the classroom. I see, though, what, what, what's happening now, speaking of today, what's happening now is, okay, we have a lot of influx of the students going to these COVID assessment centers and getting tested. Right, so the the, there's a influx, the load has increased, which means the testing before it was like, within one or two days has now moved to like five to six days. So, you know, and that is even upended by the second wave. But if ever, and added an experience recently, to check out a, you know, one of the COVID assessment centers, and in the line that I saw there, I would say more than 80% were parents with their kids. Wow. And that's just speaks to it. And I feel like that's, you know, it's, here's what's happening. So kids want to go to school. But if they get turned away for something, now, the kid is going to have a totally different experience, right? They're not in school, they're going to go through this COVID assessment center. And, you know, that's a whole different world, right? It's like something you wouldn't expect, that we kind of never went through that when we were their age. And for them to go through that. It's just I feel changes their whole entire perspective of their life and what, what, what is to come when they become an adult? Right. So that's, I think, one of the big changes that are happening for the students. This understanding the world we're living in, especially at the developmental age, right, where they don't really understand developmentally, what COVID means, how it affects everyone, they're, they're just kids they want to play, they want to have fun, right? We all went through that. And to to, to an extent, it's kind of unfair to see, okay, you know, what, they're missing on some things. But in the bigger picture, are we doing what we can to protect everyone around us?
Pouya LJ 17:16
Right? Yeah, no, that's, that's fair. And, yes, it is a bit unfair in that they have to, you know, deal with this through no fault of their own. And, you know, I, as you mentioned, especially as a younger age, where, when they're a little bit really not aware, or even care about what COVID is, they just want to do what they want to do and learn and grow and move forward. That's a fair point. Now, moving forward, do you? Do you see, so how do you see education, let's say a vaccine comes along, let's say the best case scenario, everything moves away? Do you see the education going back to what it was? And if not, what have we learned? What have you learned in this from from all of this? And how can we make education even better than the quote unquote, normal? How can we make it improved upon?
Kanwar 18:12
Right? So in terms of the education, a lot has changed, we've seen that in terms of, you know, the teaching platform, the experiences, what you're learning, one thing that I feel has been a, you know, big benefit of whatever is going on, is the fact that there, the need for collaboration has increased, which means you can collaborate easily on a global scale. Because everyone has a shared problem. So everyone wants to help each other out. So there are platforms, especially in the education field, you know, use certain platforms for say, you want to do an online quiz, you want to you want to have students create posters, there are platforms like canva.com or pictou chart that, you know, before COVID, they, if you had to use certain features, you have to pay for it. But what they did was they understood the need for helping everyone. And they read that entire fee on their platform. So as a teacher, you could just go there now.
Pouya LJ 19:22
And this again, is it can Canva canvas.com or, yeah,
Kanwar 19:26
cannot chart. There's another website called knowledge hook. Specific, specifically good for math in Ontario. And a lot of these platforms, you know, had some sort of features that a lot of features you get access to after you pay the premium, right. But they've waived that in the need off, helping each other out. And Nearpod was another platform that did that. And that was I felt a really good intention. Because you are adapting to this change. You're being flexible, and you are helping each other out. So these platforms, we're not really thinking from a monetary point of view, but really, from a point of view where they want to help the teachers out there. And that's what they did. And a lot of teachers made use of that. And I know for myself, I made use of it. Because I know for a fact that these premium features really give me a lot of flexibility of how I can create my content, how I can assess do assessments in the class. And that was a big, big shift. And so going back to your question, with education going forward, being flexible, or adapting to the change, even if you're not a person who likes change, and that was something that was, you know, in a sense, thrown at you, and you have to now change. So as a teacher, ensuring you know, you are flexible with whatever platform you're given. Now, obviously, look, we don't we can't have the experience you do in class, on an online platform. Okay. So that's something that would be different for sure. You can imagine from a, from a first day point of view, where you build class community where you build these relationships in the class, through the online platform, that would be way different. Okay, the student will still get to know you. But that relatability might not be to that personal level, as it would be in the class. Right, if you show care for a student in the class, they can see it, right? If you show care for a student and online platform, that means creating a safe environment, you know, not having any bullying or any foul language, and you can, there's tools that you can really control in the platform itself, to enable that, but like I said, you could have even face to face, like what we're doing with our video chats, and that would bring in some sort of relatability. But still, it's it's, as long as you don't see the person in actual life, you know, it's it's a whole different experience. And that's something that, you know, it's going forward, that's something that would be again, mixed together in like a hybrid model, to some extent, a lot of schools that have the resources they are doing in person, okay, we have private schools, independent schools, they have the resources, they have the funding. And they can, you know, create that six feet apart distance in the class, and also support students online at the same time, for the students who don't want to come to the class. For for other scenarios, such as public school system, that's a little different. Because what's happening now is more students, instead of coming to class, they want to just go online, because cases are rising again. So the need for online teachers of the game increased. And at the same time, we have teachers in class who are providing support. But again, like I said, the structure I feel is still not there completely, where the teachers are, you know, completely confident of being in the class and supporting the students in the class. Okay, so they still have that kind of uncertainty. And I feel going forward, that uncertainty will go down. Being that environment, it's natural for you to feel, you know, have that sense of being uncomfortable, because we don't have measures in place to protect against this, you know, novel coronavirus, and that will change going forward, there'll be more comfort in the class, eventually, there will be some sort of a hybrid model that will be put in place, obviously, online platforms will have changed drastically. Teachers will now not they will have if if ever they have to teach online, they wouldn't have. They will be there would be less resistance to that now. So that's another benefit. Technology definitely has. We, it's it's it's a perspective where a lot of, for example, teachers who would always say our technology has done this and this and this, you know, maybe having a negative point of view of what technology is doing. And now they see the benefits of technology that, you know, really makes a huge, huge difference. Right? If there was no technology learning would have stopped altogether. Right. And that's a that's a big, big benefit of living in this 21st century, even in the midst of a deadly virus. But you know, we have to tools in place that still make sure that we are connected and we don't lose contact and learning is still going on.
Pouya LJ 25:07
Yeah, it didn't. It. It helped to, you know, keep the momentum to a degree going, obviously, it, a lot of it got stopped and a lot of things got interrupted, for sure. But with a little bit of extra preparation and extra time. Yes, you're absolutely right. We got some of that momentum going. Online, he definitely online through technology. Yeah, absolutely. That's correct. And so speaking of So, I mean, obviously, the negatives are abundant and fairly obvious to degree, there were some that were not far off perhaps from somebody who doesn't have the perspective that you do. But nobody doubted that there is going to be a lot of negatives for students, teachers, the whole education system in the whole society, from every angle from this, but I honestly, I really like silver linings, I like to see things in a positive light and see what what positives actually came out of it. And part of it is what you said, We learned a lot, how we can mitigate technical use technology to mitigate the situation, whether this, and let's face it, who knows when the next pandemic hits, it could be 100 years, 200 years, it could be the next decade, it could be tomorrow, who hasn't seen after this. So point being we are living in a relatively new normal, even post vaccine, let's say there's going to be always that sense, at least for this generation that has experienced it. The sense that the immediacy of any kind of disaster, and how that can affect lives of people all around the world and education. So is there any positive we can take out of this? And and, you know, and improve upon it, make it better?
Kanwar 26:53
Yeah, definitely. Look. So with, we know, technology has been a benefit, we know that there are ways we can stay connected in terms of learning in terms of reaching out in terms of not losing contact, and that's a big, big benefit of in any industry for for that. And I feel going forward, one lesson that we have definitely learned is, you know, technology can really IID a lot of learning. In this case, it can actually even rip, to some extent it can replace, in class learning, and to a lot of extending can extend learning, right. So that replacement and extension is one thing. And again, everyone felt different with that. But the truth is, that is what technology helped us with. And we all feel really happy about that, because students are not like, they didn't feel that they're learning just stopped altogether. And that's one of the big lessons with, you know, this whole situation, how it has unfolded, we can still stay connected. Another big lesson, I would say is our reactions are adaptability to change. And that is something that you know, everyone has a different change threshold. Everyone can somebody can change. Within a day somebody can cheat it takes, you know, a year or two years to to make a big change. And with something like Coronavirus and with this whole situation. Now you don't have that flexibility to wait one or two years, you have to do it today. So it helped people push themselves. And you know, it's for some it would have been easy for some he would have been really challenging, but really walking through that. And really understanding Okay, this is for the betterment of the students, because in the education field, you always put the students first. They're at the center of everything that you do, and their needs come first. And that's really what it comes down to. Right. If you think about it from that lens. You know, I don't care about learning something new because I'm happy that and the students in my class are going to be not left behind. Right. And another big lesson with something like this, students now see, okay, the world is not full of bells and whistles its world is a nasty place to. And that's that is something that is you learn about in history, but now you're living it. And that's something that the students are experiencing for sure. And you know, there's a silver, big silver lining there because the students, the young generation, they have the capability to work in this industry where they can form solutions. There's a big, big research happening right now with the universal Right. And that's something that, you know, I'm I don't know how, what timeline we're looking at where this universal vaccine will exist for anything that would ever happen. You can imagine now, what was that ideology, we have these younger generation, who will, what, what's gonna happen is they will become more and more ambitious on, on taking on these challenges, and tackling these challenges because there's a immediate need, there's an actual need, it's not about making the world a better place. It's about protecting your world, it's about protecting and caring for the future generation, because the reality is, the virus impacts has impacted people across a whole different age group, right? It's initially was the older group, but now we have, we have seen trend where it's affecting everyone. And that's the bottom line. So everyone, if you think of it, from a humanity point of view, I feel like that's a big shift that will happen for the younger generation, because they would see the need, okay, you know, what, there is something out there and I can be part of the solution. Right, and not part of the problem. And that's, I feel it's a huge, huge silver lining in this whole situation. And I feel the students will really, and this is what we see all the time in the you know, we want to create citizens who are engaged, who are responsible, who are, you know, they want to make changes in their community, they want to make changes wherever they live, right, because change starts from your community, and then moves upward. But now, with the technology in place, you can really make a change through technology, and you can help each other out. So many possibilities has opened up. And that whole message of helping each other out and looking for each other looking out for each other. That's a big silver lining from this entire situation.
Pouya LJ 31:58
Yeah, that's very, very, very fair. And very positive. I liked the message. And I also want to for the last final point, I want to put the parents in focus, I suppose because I think from a very early on, especially, especially early on, and even now, you mentioned some of it, that they they're very engaged, very concerned, obviously about their children's education, their health and their family's health, etc. But on top of that, again, especially early on, and a lot of them still now have to enhance to, you know, handle the kids well, where previously they would send them to school, they would go to work themselves, now they have to work and at the same time, they have a kid at home and they're working at home or even if they're going outside to work if you're there, for example, first responders or what have you. Then what do you do with your with your child at home? Right, so that there has been a lot of challenges for parents. Obviously, the kids are not happy, they're acting up at times, they're, they're upset about the situation, you have to help them out. So there's there's, I think there were a lot of challenges coming our ways of parents more than ever before. Obviously, parenting is never easy. And number. Nobody ever said that. It's easy, but I think it was at a level up in the past few months. And I'm sure you had some experiences with the parents through their children that you're, you know, educating online or other ways. And did you have any? Do you have any words of I don't want to call it advice, but of consolation or anything that you want to talk to parents directly about or, you know, give them a message or give their message to us to the rest of us. Yeah.
Kanwar 33:49
One thing from I've just as a recent experience, where one of the parents, you know, that their child was sent back home, because their child was not feeling well. And, and the child shows up at home. And he says, mom, my stomach doesn't feel good, right? And my mother's like, What? Why doesn't few babies I got her. No, it doesn't feel good. And the mom said, Okay, did you go Did you poop this morning? And he said, No, I did not. And she like, do you have to poop? And he said, Yeah, I have to fuke and he goes to the washroom when it comes out and he's feeling finding starts playing outside. So the concern is in the air, okay. The concern is in the air. Now imagine from a kid's point of view, right kid, the kid is just being a kid. At their age, you know, they might have so many things going on, but we can't. We don't know for sure what we can pinpoint it on. Right. So there's that uncertainty from that point of view. And that applies to teachers. teachers could be concerned because they have kids at home. So the teachers who are parents, they are concerned, there's no simple answer to this, right? I can't, I can't say that no, if any, if somebody's feeling wonky, just let them be in the classroom. Because that I feel is, you know, we don't really know what it can be. And that would come down from the school, how the school is reacting to it, if the school says, okay, you know, this happens, it's okay, we can discount it. If not, then these are the policies we will have in place. Okay, and you follow that. And that's really what it comes down to is you'll have a consensus, everyone in the school agrees to what they're doing. And they have the parents on board. That's important, because the parents are not on board. Or, you know, it's not about putting parents on board, because you could have disagreements, but having ensuring the parents are communicated properly, so they know what's going to happen. And that will help parents really, you know, make arrangements to have to, because you don't The last thing you want is your kid showing up home and you have to go to work. Now. What are you going to do that? Right? It's a lot of uncertainty. You can imagine the pain on the parents behalf, like, what do I do now? And their frustration, right? their frustration with the school? Because they're like, okay, the schools open, and now you send my kid home, like, why would I send my kid to school, when something comes up, and you're gonna send it back to me. So if that was the case, I would have just kept mice tried at home. And that's really the unpredictability that we're seeing right now. Parents have to understand that if you're sending your kid to school, the intentions are, you know, the kid will get the opportunity to be in school in that environment. But there are a bunch of things that comes with it. And that's something that the whole family must be okay with. Because what happens if tomorrow, they say, the kid is having symptoms, and now you have to isolate? Right? The isolation 14 days, that means lost money, that could mean lost connection, it's so many things. And every situation is different, right? I can't I can't generalize it. Everyone have their own situation? And as a parent, if that's what you're deciding to do, you must have those things in place. Okay, what is my backup plan? What is plan? a? What is Plan B? If in the case that my child was to come home? Okay, can one parent be at home work remotely? Can we have those? some sort of a system in place? Or can have extended family? Can I give my kids to someone else? Who can take care? Or can I go, if I have a cottage, can we go to the cottage and isolated the cottage, a lot of those. Those are the important things that have to be thought before you make the decision of sending your child to school because I've have seen parents where they just get frustrated with the whole situation, because they had not expected the child to be sent home. Right. So you have to be prepared for that. And for parents, who are first responders, parents who are in the line of work where they protect people, you know, it's it comes down to what you decide as a parent. But the bottom line is this, we know the virus is deadly, we know the virus, you know, it's still out there, it's not completely gone off the face of the planet. So you have to keep in mind that we are living in a new world, which means that the kids still have to go to the school, they still have to do some sort of learning. But Add to that the fact that we are living in a different world now. Okay, so that's something because it could happen. And I've seen even for myself, where, you know, you can start to get more and more complacent in terms of Okay, you know, what, I don't see much going on around me. So I think I'm okay. You know, and but that's looking at your local lens. But if you really look at the global what's going on. Again, that is not the case. Right? And we have to always keep in mind that okay, we are living in a new reality. And this is what I want. These are my goals. I want my kid to get some learning, can I can I send my kid to school, knowing that they can be asked to be tested? And that means going to code center and you know, that's another four to five hours you have to wait in line. Am I ready to do that? Or am I rather me rather okay with not sending my child to school, having them stay at home and learn? And do I have something in place where someone else is at home? With the child right? So those Are the those are the two situations that all the parents are really dealing with right now, in addition to their own full time, whatever they do. So it's not easy. It's not it's definitely made parenting, I would say 1000 times more challenging.
40:17
And
Kanwar 40:18
especially when you have both parents as working, imagine both parents as first responders, it just changes a whole whole scenario what to do now. And that's really, I feel the pickle. But really, having those goals sorted out would make it much, much easy, manageable, in a sense to tackle with, okay, if this can happen, okay, that's, that's okay. Because we have something in place to manage that. Because that would bring a sense of comfort, less frustration. And at the same time, you know, the learning will go on. And that's really should be the goal, right, the learning will go on, and the learning should never stop.
Pouya LJ 41:02
Yeah, and let's hope that and let's hope everything improves, not regress, I suppose that's, that's all we can do. We can basically, this is a situation we have to deal with, at the end of the day, whether we like it or not, and that's a nobody likes it. And some have it worse than others, of course, yeah. And some have it better and, but at the end of the day, all of us have to deal with something new that mostly we don't want to exactly our ideal, but that's life. And then things happen. Obviously, we want to be proactive about these things and make sure they don't happen in the first place. But we also want to be prepared for the possibility of them happening. And that's the lesson we should carry on, I think, moving forward. But at the same time, we're not done with this. And we have to think about all aspects. And and I think one of the things that helps me a lot to deal when I'm dealing with other people especially is that I put myself in their shoes and understand their pain. And that helps me generate some empathy that otherwise I would not be able to where I would judge them harshly. Definitely unnecessarily. So yeah, let's let's hope for the better. And thank you, camera for joining us for this illuminant illuminating conversation.
Kanwar 42:12
Thank you for having me. It's great to have this really important discussion and the world we live in right now.
