Wheatley emphasizes the importance of accepting that large-scale systems are unlikely to change, urging people to focus on smaller "islands of sanity" where meaningful impact is still possible. She contends that instead of grand ambitions of saving the world, we should look at what is needed in our immediate environments and ask whether we are the right people to meet those needs. For leaders feeling overwhelmed, she advises fostering environments where people can rediscover their best qualities and collaborate on shared goals.
Drawing parallels with the concept of the "dark night of the soul," the discussion also explores how commitment to living meaningfully doesn't have to be tied to specific outcomes. This is especially relevant in privileged Western contexts where efficacy is often judged based on measurable results. The episode delves into the harsh truths of our time, the existential crises they provoke, and how we can still find meaningful ways to contribute.
Special guest co-host Debra Rienstra joins Ben for a conversation.
Meet Margaret Wheatley
Margaret (Meg) Wheatley, Ed.D. began caring about the world’s peoples in 1966 as a Peace Corps volunteer in post-war Korea. As a consultant, senior-level advisor, teacher, speaker, and formal leader, she has worked on all continents (except Antarctica) with all levels, ages, and types of organizations, leaders, and activists. Her work now focuses on developing and supporting leaders globally as Warriors for the Human Spirit. These leaders put service over self, stand steadfast through crises and failures, and make a difference for the people and causes they care about. With compassion and insight, they know how to invoke people’s inherent generosity, creativity, kindness, and community — no matter what’s happening around them.
Margaret has written ten books, including the classic Leadership and the New Science, and has been honored for her pathfinding work by many professional associations, universities, and organizations. She received her Doctorate from Harvard University in 1979, an M.A. in Media Ecology from NYU in 1974, and a B.A. from University of Rochester in 1966. She spent a year at University College London 1964-65. Her website is designed as a library of free resources as well as information about products and her speaking calendar: www.margaretwheatley.com
Meet The Many
The Many is an uncommon, intentionally diverse collective making music for people to sing together about peace and justice and a world where all belong. Drawing on indie pop and gospel influences, The Many makes music to help give voice to faith and doubt, questions and fears, laments and longings, music that speaks to a non-violent God, a Jesus who is with us and for us, and to a Spirit that can't be easily defined or controlled.
It's music for a movement of resistance to hatred and division, for reconciliation and restoration, and music that always reminds us "we are on this earth to love."
Meet Debra Rienstra
Debra Rienstra is professor of English at Calvin University. Her most recent book is Refugia Faith: Seeking Hidden Shelters, Ordinary Wonders, and the Healing of the Earth (Fortress 2022). Rienstra is also the host of the Refugia Podcast and writes bi-weekly for The Reformed Journal. She is also a member of Third Act Faith.
Website: https://debrarienstra.com/
Twitter: @debrakrienstra (although I'm not on there much anymore)
FB: https://www.facebook.com/debrakrienstra
Instagram: @rienstradebra
