Description: Get ready for an enlightening episode where we've got some valuable lessons to share from the past few years. You know what they say: being prepared pays off! This episode will help you gear up and be recession ready. We're not saying you need to start panicking right now, but it's always wise to have a plan tucked away just in case a recession hits—whether it's this year, next year, or who knows when! Think of it like having a disaster recovery plan or a crisis management strategy. We want you to have that "what if" plan in your back pocket, ready to tackle any changes, control expenses, or adjust if needed. It's all about being proactive!
Today, we're lucky to have two fantastic guests with us: Amy Whittenberger, an HR Business Advisor and Subject Matter Expert from our MRA Hotline, and Susan Abler, MS, SPHR, SHRM-SCP, Member Relations Advisor & Director of Outplacement. They're here to take us through exciting "What If" scenarios. We'll cover everything from smart capacity strategies and finding or nurturing talent to retaining employees, keeping them motivated, and ensuring their overall well-being. And hey, we'll even dive into the tough questions about potential workforce reductions if things get real.
Resources:
2023 Economic Outlook
Outplacement and Career Transitions
HR Hotline
MRA Membership
About MRA
Let's Connect:
Guest Bio - Susan Abler
Guest LinkedIn Profile - Susan Abler
Guest Bio - Amy Whittenberger
Guest LinkedIn Profile - Amy Whittenberger
Host Bio - Sophie Boler
Host LinkedIn Profile - Sophie Boler
Transcript:
Transcripts are computer generated -- not 100% accurate word-for-word.
00:00:00:00 - 00:00:21:03
Unknown
Hello everybody and welcome to 30 minute Thrive, your go to podcast for anything and everything HR, powered by MRA, the Management Association. Looking to stay on top of the ever changing world of nature. MRA has got you covered. We'll be the first to tell you what's hot and what's not. I'm your host, Sophie Boler, and we are so glad you're here.
00:00:21:05 - 00:00:47:00
Unknown
Now it's time to thrive. Well, we have learned many lessons these past two years, but one of the most important lessons is that it pays to be prepared. So for this podcast episode, we are going to help you prepare and be recession ready in. While we are not saying that you need to be ready right now, whether a recession hits later this year or next year or whenever, it's just best to have a plan in your back pocket.
00:00:47:02 - 00:01:19:23
Unknown
So today we are joined by Amy Whittenberger our business advisor and subject matter expert from our MRA hotline, and Susan Adler, member relations advisor and director of outplacement, will help us take a look at some what if plans, along with the tough questions, if and when it might come time for reductions in your workforce. So one of the best ways to be recession ready is really to prepare Now by optimizing your workforce and optimizing your workforce now helps you focus on long term success.
00:01:19:23 - 00:01:43:15
Unknown
So you will come out stronger after a recession. So, Amy, let's start out by asking, do you have any suggestions for companies seeking cost saving opportunities within the workforce? Yeah, I do. In fact, just recently at one of the roundtables I facilitated for Mra. For our h.r. Group, we talked about this exact topic, just, you know, cost savings, you know, ideas.
00:01:43:17 - 00:02:15:06
Unknown
Some of the things that came up in our conversation were first, you know, is get everyone involved. So saving money, having great ideas, you know, challenge all of your employees to participate in this and help the company. And reward them, you know, when they have great ideas for saving money. So get your employees involved. And then next, one of the things that we talked about is the whole idea of scheduling and time, time keeping, because that's kind of the thing that kind of falls off our radar, that can that can cost the money.
00:02:15:07 - 00:02:38:06
Unknown
We don't even know it. You know, for example, there are times in timekeeping where minutes add up to hours in weeks and months and can add up to thousands of dollars. For example, when we have employees that tend to be those that are tardy for work and tardy, you know, fairly often, often we pay those people for those six, seven, 8 minutes that they're late.
00:02:38:08 - 00:02:59:19
Unknown
And then over time, that can add up to 1000 hours, you know, in a year. And if you multiply that by several employees, it can be a significant cost to the company. Other things that come with timekeeping, you know, include looking at things like calls, last minute changes, which then causes overlap in work for people to put in extra time or overtime.
00:02:59:21 - 00:03:24:16
Unknown
So look at reasons why there is changes in schedule, whether it's employees that that are calling in or if it's things that are happening on the process side of things and look at, you know, how you can prevent those types of things. Then there's also optimizing schedules. So if you're a company that has multiple shifts, look at how much overlap you have between employees and shifts.
00:03:24:18 - 00:03:45:09
Unknown
Sometimes it's fairly common to overlap an hour, but you really need to overlap. An hour can reduce it to half an hour, even 15 minutes to get really efficient. Are there other things that we can look at? You know, as you look at ourselves within h.r. You know, a very common call that i get is what happens when we overtime overpay.
00:03:45:09 - 00:04:16:13
Unknown
Employees. And that can happen for various reasons. You know, the wrong data gets plugged into your address and they're paying on the wrong rate or the wrong premium. And the first thing I say is, you know, it's absolutely okay to recoup those funds, but a lot of companies don't realize that they can and that they should. The second piece is, as I would be taking time to really audit your systems to make sure your data is correct so that you can prevent overpayments in the first place.
00:04:16:15 - 00:04:46:23
Unknown
Yes, absolutely. Well, kind of digging deeper and another way to look at is capacity strategies. So how can that help an organization be better prepared with an agile workforce? Well, I think you kind of said it when we kicked it off, But, you know, the first thing that comes to mind when we think of being agile, I think of 2019 and when coronavirus hit, we all had to pivot and find different ways of working and getting things done.
00:04:47:00 - 00:05:25:10
Unknown
And what I would stress is that all companies instill agility into their core values and really bring that to the forefront in all communications and your staff meetings and things and really learn to be an agile workforce. You know, and one way of doing that is I would take your lessons from what you did for COVID, take out that playbook that you had, you know, in notes you took and things that you did and maybe, you know, make that more of a common function quarterly, semiannually, maybe to look at, you know, what did we do and how can we do that again to make sure that we're being agile?
00:05:25:12 - 00:05:52:14
Unknown
What are the the biggest things that come to mind, I think, is, you know, to be agile, you have to be able to remove barriers so people can make changes and make decisions quickly. So look at your processes and your expectations in terms of how we communicate, make decisions and remove those barriers. Then there's other things. You know, one of the things I found is, you know, have your employees think like they're small business owners and then think like they are a business owner.
00:05:52:15 - 00:06:09:03
Unknown
You know, if I own this business, what changes would I like to make or what I think should be made? Because I am close to this type of process and I know it can be done differently and reward them for that kind of thinking. And then to be more agile, I think you also have to be ready for those changes.
00:06:09:03 - 00:06:40:16
Unknown
So think about people that can be cross-trained in different functions so that if you do make a change, they can make that pivot into the different role or function more quickly. Absolutely. Well, you just talked about across true cross training. And when considering cost concerns, it's essential to kind of determine where to invest limited resources. So considering building versus buying your talent, But it's also important to continue to invest in your future, even in those cost conscious times.
00:06:40:18 - 00:07:03:15
Unknown
So what suggestions do you have on ways to think strategically and plan for current and future talent requirements? I think this is so important. You know, if you think about talent, which is our human resources, right, our people, let's make sure that they are currently as productive as they can be in Agile. As I just said, which is one way.
00:07:03:17 - 00:07:26:18
Unknown
But also when you think of current in talent requirements in the future, you know, I think first let's also conserve what we have. We know that when we lose people, you know, in terms of retention, hiring and turnover can be really costly, right? So let's first make sure that we're conserving our people, but then let's invest in them.
00:07:26:20 - 00:07:54:09
Unknown
And one way, you know, is to look into performance. You know, how can we make sure that they are performance optimally? You know, look at maybe some of your pay philosophies in terms of pay for performance instead of a flat increase across the board. Maybe you're incentivizing those people that are upskilling or hired have high potential with the company or great attitudes and really want to work through their discretionary effort to get things done.
00:07:54:11 - 00:08:28:17
Unknown
Another way of looking at your performance and making sure that we're optimizing our talent is like using like a nine buck philosophy or even the top 10% bottom 10% philosophies in terms of looking at excuse me, when you have the people that are in that top right hand box, right, you want to make sure that you're continuing to challenge them and provide them abilities to reach higher levels and to upskill those that are in the battle of ten bucks or in the bottom 10%.
00:08:28:22 - 00:08:50:07
Unknown
You know, let's look at why and figure out, you know, is it a system thing or is it a person thing and what changes should we make to upgrade them so they're no longer in the bottom 10%? And that way, you continually upgrading your bar in terms of achieved achievement. And then lastly, invest in professional development. And, you know, I don't think this has to be a costly thing or even a cost item.
00:08:50:07 - 00:09:16:01
Unknown
I think that, you know, a great way of doing this is to work with people in terms of providing on the job training or even job shadowing, you know, expose them to other people in the company or other functions in the company. You know, a great example to do that is to provide them, you know, an opportunity to sit on a project that may or may not necessarily in their department or their function.
00:09:16:01 - 00:09:50:03
Unknown
So cross functional exposure is a great way to provide development support or how about communication? We've got to talk about communication and economic uncertainty. So any suggestions you have on ensuring that transparent and confident communication and building trust among employees during this time? Well, yeah, you know, and so if you remember, we just talked about this in another podcast in terms of the importance of communications, you know, when it comes to employee relations, you know, if I think of all my years of working with people and coaching h.r.
00:09:50:03 - 00:10:19:21
Unknown
In leaders, you know, when things are going well at a company, it's probably because communications are going well. When things aren't going well at a company, it could be because communications aren't going well. So i think when there's times of uncertainty, i think we we definitely need to amp up our communication with our employees. You know, when there's when there's ambiguity of what's going on in a company or messaging just doesn't seem to be, you know, at the level it should be for employees to understand what's going on.
00:10:19:23 - 00:10:54:05
Unknown
You know, it just makes them anxious. I think they start filling in reasons of their own. They, you know, it's natural for us to think the worst. So I think in terms of communications, I think even bad news that is honest news about what's going on with the company is probably better than no news in this situation. But I think also it has to be, you know, increase in your touchpoints with employees, you know, so not just written communications, but also make sure that, you know, across the board our leaders are managers or h.r.
00:10:54:06 - 00:11:25:09
Unknown
Supervisors are having more frequent even daily interactions with employees. Just so that you're getting about in, you know, really getting the pulse of people and what's going on. Where are they in terms of their level of anxiety and questions that they have, you know, be more personable, ask what's going on and make sure that you're not making assumptions and then make sure that they're not making assumptions either because they have the right information from the company for sure.
00:11:25:14 - 00:11:53:17
Unknown
Like Amy said, she went into communication a little more deeply in an employee relations podcast. So feel free to take a look at their own if you want to learn more tips on that. But as we talk more about talent, do you have any tips to keep the talent you currently have that businesses currently have or any retention strategies you might suggest for an organization to plan for or in a recession?
00:11:53:19 - 00:12:17:02
Unknown
Yeah, I think, you know, almost probably everything I've said so far are all different ways that can work towards retaining employees, you know, building that level of trust and loyalty with employees that makes them want to stay with the company, you know, So, you know, great communication both, you know, from top on down, but also that personal communication with supervisors is really key.
00:12:17:04 - 00:12:40:17
Unknown
I think, you know, recognition in terms of, you know, how well they're doing, their jobs, things that they're achieving, accomplishing simple thank you's. And, you know, I talked about professional development. That certainly is key. You know, for those that, you know, truly do want to be challenged and just showing that confidence, you have employees when you say, hey, you know, I think you certainly have potential for this.
00:12:40:17 - 00:13:01:00
Unknown
Let's try and see if you like it. And then there's other things I think we also have to talk about, which is understanding where employees are at in terms of work life balance, flexibility, benefits needs, because all of our lives are different. You know, world of work has certainly changing in the world we live in is certainly changing.
00:13:01:02 - 00:13:22:24
Unknown
You know, you know, many of us are in that sandwich generation where we're taking care of kids or grandkids and parents or other family members. So there's so much need for, you know, different levels of flexibility at different points in our lives. And I think that can go a long way towards retention of we're a little bit more flexible now about motivation.
00:13:22:24 - 00:13:51:12
Unknown
How do you keep employees going during these uncertain times? Yeah, so, you know, I mentioned ambiguity as I think if if we're ever going to amp up our communication and get out there and be more visible to employees, I think it's key in order to motivate is to really be, you know, upbeat and optimistic. When you're out there on the floor, you know, really leading the charge that we can get through this together.
00:13:51:14 - 00:14:20:00
Unknown
And, you know, and with that, maybe provide ways or encourage them to reach out to their team members to build a cohesive team and really trust that together we can get through these things. And then, you know, part of being upbeat is, you know, celebrating those wins again. So recognizing big wins, little wins, you know, things that can just help people cheer them up and see the maybe the end of the line of the tunnel that, you know, if we if we keep ticking away, we'll get through this.
00:14:20:02 - 00:14:42:09
Unknown
So, you know, along with employee engagement and motivation, it's also important to consider employees well-being and health during challenging times. So how can employers really help in this area? Yeah, I think everything that we we are doing, we should continue doing and again, maybe be a little bit more intentional about it when we know there's some uncertainty going on.
00:14:42:09 - 00:15:07:00
Unknown
So, you know, mental health, health has become a bigger issue, is coming to the forefront. People are more comfortable sharing that, you know, I need help with it, just like I need help with my my physical issues in terms of benefits that are provided. So when you know, when you think of these uncertain times, you know, people's anxiety again is risen, which causes, you know, some stress.
00:15:07:02 - 00:15:28:06
Unknown
So things that we can do to help relieve stress, there's certainly going to be helpful to people and help them to be more productive. It could be little things that we could take, for example, you know, bring in a massage therapist in order to employees can pay 15 or $20 for a massage. We do that at MRA, which is really cool and awesome.
00:15:28:08 - 00:15:53:19
Unknown
But you can also encourage challenges to walk a little bit more, get away from your desk a little bit, you know, like in activities, you know, and breaks or lunch periods, maybe even send out links for mindfulness activities to do at your computer, just to take even a 2 to 3 minute break. Studies have shown that that is helpful to people's stress levels.
00:15:53:21 - 00:16:17:11
Unknown
And then in a sense, this is a time of, you know, inflation and paychecks are a little bit smaller, it seems, you know, maybe even having lunch and learns with employees where they can talk or learn about, you know, budget ideas and financial concerns and maybe share with each other ideas they have for for saving money in these uncertain times.
00:16:17:13 - 00:16:38:05
Unknown
And then the last thing I think of is, you know, if there's one thing a company can do, which is, you know, if people are already a little bit on edge, you know, let's make sure that we're removing any frustrations that we can with any cumbersome policies and procedures that we have as well. Yeah, I mean, those are all great tips.
00:16:38:07 - 00:17:11:05
Unknown
Now we're on to the tough questions, unfortunately. But let's say you've done all you can, but you're still faced with having to reduce your workforce. What are the first steps that you recommend for an organization facing this? Yeah, so the first thing that comes to mind when you talk about employers, you know, they used to be I think when we we were in the midst of thinking about, you know, downsizing, it could be the thinking that, you know what, we can go ahead and do a layoff because I think we can rebound pretty quickly and bring those people back.
00:17:11:07 - 00:17:32:00
Unknown
Well, I don't know if that's true anymore because, you know, talent is so hard to find these days. I think we have to think a lot harder about that mentality in terms of, you know, letting people go. So I think, you know, first really thinking about alternatives and before we go that route, you know, thankfully, you know, MRA has an awesome resource for this.
00:17:32:01 - 00:18:00:01
Unknown
You know, we've developed what we call the layoff toolkit, and it talks about things that you can think about before you actually think about laying off people and some of those ideas are, you know, first looking at your normal attrition. So look at performance reviews, look at people's performances. You know, is there reason, you know, that some people might be naturally falling off or that we might involuntary have them fall off because performance isn't where we need it to be?
00:18:00:03 - 00:18:30:22
Unknown
Then, you know, also look at, you know, in a larger aspect in terms of voluntary tournaments, you know, is that an all in option or providing in a different kind of scheduling maybe for those people that could start transitioning at a company without losing all that tribal knowledge that they have, but still, you know, make it lucrative or worthwhile for them to retire, you know, in terms of finances and benefits, You know, certainly looking at reduced schedules across the company.
00:18:30:24 - 00:18:53:17
Unknown
So can we eliminate 1 to 4, 8 hours, you know, from a weekly schedule or monthly schedule, even, you know, across the board or making it, you know, a rolling schedule in terms of different amounts of time off. Because like I kind of said earlier, you know, that that our here and there costs, you know, a pretty big spectrum could add up to, you know, pretty good cost savings.
00:18:53:19 - 00:19:26:01
Unknown
So look a bit about changing schedules, reducing schedules, and then, you know, if if it's going to be a layoff, maybe it's not everyone at one time, maybe you could think about a rolling layoff. So, you know, layoff portions or trunks of people at a time, bring them back at different times as well, because it might not be as impactful to the company doing it all at one time and then asking for involuntary furloughs or even mandatory furloughs as well for people.
00:19:26:03 - 00:20:02:10
Unknown
And that's all really good things that we can be thinking about before we, you know, have to really be faced with a full, complete downsizing or layoff. As. Susan, any thoughts from you from an outplacement perspective then? Yes, right. Amy had some really good ideas. One of the things that I suggest to employers when they're contemplating a reduction in force and outplacement is to really think broadly, strategically, legally, because all of those things are involved in a reduction in force.
00:20:02:12 - 00:20:33:06
Unknown
I really like h.r. To take an extra look at the employee list and really look at the dynamics of the current makeup of the workforce. You may be surprised. So you have a group of people who are near to retirement than you thought. So like amy said, perhaps voluntary retirement might be a solution. But if you're starting to talk outplacement internally within the organization, then a lot of decisions have already been made.
00:20:33:08 - 00:21:08:17
Unknown
So think broadly and then also think about those employees that you'll be targeting and the size of that group, two or more individuals as a group, and that has different legal consequences than just doing an excellent job of one person. So letting people go is cost effective in the long run. In the short term, it's expensive because you have vacation pay out, you have severance, you have a benefit continuation and you have outplacement costs.
00:21:08:19 - 00:21:43:24
Unknown
So I always like to advise employers to think about that short term. And in the long term, because it is expensive, you need to be coordinating, you know, in terms of how are you going to get that company property shutting off I.T. access as part of a reduction in force. And then with outplacement, I would just encourage Marie members to give me a call and let's talk about the logistics, what type of outplacement you offer and how you go about that will probably be depended upon how many people you're letting go.
00:21:44:01 - 00:22:10:03
Unknown
Does does it make more sense to do group workshops for the individuals? Let's say you're laying off a couple dozen people. If you're laying off maybe 5 to 10, you might want to offer an individual package. Outplacement tends to be offered in monthly increments, and so I'm afraid we offer a one month to month and six month program, as are standard.
00:22:10:05 - 00:22:30:14
Unknown
But we can customize a program to any need or budget. And again, that's why I offer our members to have a discussion with me to really figure out what a good solution would be. You know, when we talk about it and those conversations are point of outplacement, you know, we also have to think about what we call the survivors, right?
00:22:30:16 - 00:22:54:09
Unknown
So how do we take people take care of the people that are still going to be working? Because it's very common that there's this, you know, the syndrome that's called, you know, the survivor effect. They feel guilty that, you know, why why did I get to keep my job when the next person lost their job? So making sure that you're focusing back on those employees, help them through that.
00:22:54:15 - 00:23:12:07
Unknown
You know, it's part of a grief process. One of the things that Susan said that made me realize I didn't mention a very important piece when it comes to I would say I would say is in groups of people is that there is, you know, state and federal laws that most of us are familiar with, called the WARN Act.
00:23:12:09 - 00:23:41:09
Unknown
If you're letting go, you know, a sizable group or are closing down a plant, which is tends to be about 50 people or more, depending on the size of the company, locations of companies. And but we need to consider the one act as well. You. Yeah, absolutely. I was just going to mention you mentioned about the survivors, but not only is it hard telling people they've been laid off, but you also have to worry about maintaining the productivity of the remaining team, like you said.
00:23:41:09 - 00:24:21:04
Unknown
So just kind of asking you to dig a little deeper and what does the outplacement plan really look like and any advice on how to implement it or start one? Yeah, very good question, Vince. Employees are watching, so it's really important. They are an employer. Think about that. So I reduction of force impacts everybody. It's an incredibly stressful situation across the board and those employees that retain their jobs, they want to know how their former coworkers and friends were taken care of.
00:24:21:04 - 00:24:48:24
Unknown
So outplacement is really an important way for an employer to reduce risk. It gives employees who are losing their job a really soft landing, and it also helps an employer protect their brand. And so I think those are important starting points. When an employer is considering outplacement, think of all the good reasons to do it and to have that additional expense.
00:24:48:24 - 00:25:32:00
Unknown
I mean, we share the mutual goal with the former employer and that we want to get the person back to work as quickly as possible. And so an outplacement program is just so valuable in in that regard. And I think one of the important pieces that Susan and her team plays is that if a company does provide outplacement to employees that conversation where they're, you know, immediately handed off to a skilled person and crew transition that can have that that touchpoint with that employee and the employee knows that the service is available to them and that they will have someone that can help them work through their issues and then help them get reemployed again.
00:25:32:02 - 00:26:00:11
Unknown
It's certainly mitigates a lot of emotional activity or rumors that could go on. Oh, yeah, that's an excellent point. Very few employers today require an employee to sign their separation agreement before outplacement can start. And so not all employers do that, but the vast majority do. So that's one of the decisions that need to be made early on with regards to outplacement as as well.
00:26:00:13 - 00:26:30:19
Unknown
The other thing that employers need to be aware of is once you send the person to us, our obligation is really supporting that individual. And in order to build rapport with that person, we have to have a trust and a big part of their trust is them knowing that the program is confidential. And so employers need to realize that we won't be sharing information back to them about their former employee or we've talked about a lot today.
00:26:30:21 - 00:26:53:01
Unknown
You have given great advice today, but do either of you have anything to kind of end with your might drop moment or your last piece of advice that you want to give our listeners today? Well, I'll give you a quick plug for outplacement. I mean, I do think it's critical. It gives a person a stock landing. Employer reduces your risk, it protects your black brand.
00:26:53:01 - 00:27:18:10
Unknown
Again, employees are watching. And so you really want to take good care of these individuals and people who participate in an outplacement program to get back to work more quickly. And they just have a more positive state of being, which I think is really important. And I would just want to go back to my favorite word, which is communication.
00:27:18:12 - 00:27:45:07
Unknown
There's so much we can do to be ready or to avoid situations, which is, you know, there's never enough communication. I don't think I've ever heard of a company over communicating. It's normally, you know, the ladder where our supervisors, managers leadership is in communicating enough. So communicate, communicate and communicate well. Hopefully all of these great ideas will help you be recession ready if and when that comes.
00:27:45:09 - 00:28:04:05
Unknown
So you can prepare your organization for success no matter what comes our way. So I want to thank both of you for being here today and sharing your knowledge with us into our listeners. Don't forget to like, comment and share this episode and take a look at the show notes below. We've got all the resources we need on this topic.
00:28:04:07 - 00:28:26:19
Unknown
We've got Susan and Amy's bio and LinkedIn profiles in Resources on becoming an MRA member. So thank you for tuning in and we will see you next week. And that wraps up our content for this episode. Be sure to reference the show notes where you can sign them to connect. For more podcast updates, check out other MRA episodes on your favorite podcast platform.
00:28:26:19 - 00:28:36:11
Unknown
And as always, make sure to follow MRA’s 30 minutes Thrive so you don't miss out. Thanks for tuning in and we'll see you next Wednesday to carry on the HR conversation.
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