In this episode of Associations NOW Presents, guest host Christine Shaw of The Association Adviser Podcast sits down with Mike Moss, CAE, president of the Society for College and University Planning, for an insightful conversation on the shifting dynamics of career development in the association space. They explore the growing demand for purpose-driven work, the realities of hybrid and remote models, and how associations can foster meaningful engagement in a digital world. Mike shares strategies for building...
In this episode of Associations NOW Presents, guest host Christine Shaw of The Association Adviser Podcast sits down with Mike Moss, CAE, president of the Society for College and University Planning, for an insightful conversation on the shifting dynamics of career development in the association space. They explore the growing demand for purpose-driven work, the realities of hybrid and remote models, and how associations can foster meaningful engagement in a digital world. Mike shares strategies for building intentional connections, promoting continuous learning, and creating psychologically safe workplaces. The discussion also touches on transparent hiring, value-based leadership, and how associations can remain agile by rethinking professional development and evolving their strategic plans to meet today’s challenges.
Check out the video podcast here:
https://youtu.be/4DxGN5NMarQ
This episode is sponsored by Visit Omaha and New Orleans & Company.
Associations NOW Presents is produced by Association Briefings.
Transcript
Christine Shaw: [00:00:00] Welcome to episode nine of Associations NOW Presents, an original podcast series from the American Society of Association Executives. I'm Christine Shaw, CEO of Naylor Association Solutions. You probably heard me on my podcast, the Association Advisor. However, today I'm honored to host this episode for the ASAE.
Before we begin, I'd like to take a moment to thank our episode sponsor, visit Omaha. For today's episode, we're excited to talk to Mike Moss, president of the Society for College and University, planning about the evolving landscape of career development within the association space, and what professionals can expect in the year ahead.
Welcome to the show, Mike.
Mike Moss, CAE: Thank you very much for having me and looking forward to our conversation.
Christine Shaw: Fantastic. Well, let's just dig right in and start with the big picture. How is career development evolving in the association world and what makes this moment particularly pivotal?
Mike Moss, CAE: Yeah, and it's the right [00:01:00] question to start with because I think from our perspective at SC and also mine as a 34 year practitioner in the space is we're shifting from a linear to a kind of a multi-directional career path.
As I came up through the industry, it was a pretty logical progression for me in operations between being an assistant to a manager, to a director, but pretty much all within the same discipline as I was given opportunities, maybe different associations. I. The directional was pretty linear, and what I really appreciate where we're going as an industry now is that we do have multiple directional paths, meaning I can do a bunch of different things at my association or require a bunch of different skill sets over time, and the association can be committed to me to develop those skills.
I do not have to come on entry with. All the skill sets to be a generalist. I can come in with specific skill sets, develop competencies in certain areas, and then have another opportunity to explore different career paths. And I do think what that's been driven by, and you'll hear me talk about this a lot, probably today, which is I do think our employment base is [00:02:00] beautifully shifting to being purpose driven.
And that's why they're attracted to our sector is they're here to serve and they realize that the service is going to change as tech changes needs change, service requirements change, funding change. I. And I think that this next batch of association employees really get the purpose-driven association.
Christine Shaw: Mike, I agree with you on the purpose driven. That's one of the reasons too. A lot of people, myself included, are drawn to this space. I liked what you said though, that you don't necessarily have to have all the skills 'cause they'll be developed. And I think sometimes people hold themselves back because they think they need to have all the skills.
So that's very encouraging coming from someone like you who's reached to the top position and letting people know that we're here to develop your career along the way. Let's talk about a tricky subject now, right. Nothing's gotten more attention than remote and hybrid work. They've become very common across many industries.
So talk to me about how associations are adapting to this shift and what challenges or opportunities does it present for talent [00:03:00] development?
Mike Moss, CAE: Yeah, and I, what I'll do here intentionally is avoid the generational trap. I know this is a pod, so people not, may not be able to see me, but after working for 34 years, you can imagine I'm not in my twenties.
I came up in a different type of environment than what we're offering now. The hybrid remote, and my organization is hybrid remote, meaning everybody in the central office location of Ann Arbor is hybrid. We also have employees coast to coast. So we have a beautiful mix and I think some of the challenges that we've experienced that may probably translate to other listeners is that there has to be a real intentional connection process.
You can't just assume people are checking in with one another just to check on the weekend. All that proverbial water cooler talk can be very challenging. And I think we've really experimented with different types of setups. And the one that's worked the best for us is we do have a twice a month purposeful presence meeting.
It's called a P two because every abbreviated, so the Purposeful Presence meetings are. Obviously partly a staff meeting, but they're also mostly a social and it's a chance to [00:04:00] guarantee that at a minimum eight hours a month, 'cause they're both four hour meetings. We're having the chance to connect as humans who happen to work at Skype and making sure that we have that social opportunity.
And that's proven to be real helpful to make people, especially if they're new and remote and not in the hybrid environment that we have. Ann Arbor, it can be a lot longer tail to get. Ingrained into the social movements of the organization. So I appreciate that. And I also think one of the things that's really important, and it goes to what we just talked about where we're heading, is digital fluency is really important.
Obviously you and I are connecting today through Digital Medium and my remote employees, and I see each other three to four times a year in person. Otherwise, it's all digital and being able to manage that digital fluency, not just to open software and use it, but know which software you're using, what tools come with it, what are you endeavoring to do in that meeting?
Does take training, and I think oftentimes we just assume if it's a icon on a desktop. The person will figure it out. And I would encourage all of us as employers to recognize training is one of the biggest outcomes of the hybrid remote work [00:05:00] environment training, the culture training, how the digital fluency will work in your organization, and being real honest about what's not working, and having those channels provided for feedback from everyone, not just your hybrid folks or your remote folks, but from everyone.
Christine Shaw: I like what you said. A couple big takeaways is one, don't put age bias into it one way or the other. I think that helps a lot. I love what you're saying about digital fluency, because I think you're right. Everyone adapts to technology and digital differently, but ensuring that there's alignment on the tools and the training.
It's really key to making this work. And also the fact that you pointed out that some of your intentional in-person meetings are about social, not just work because that's how you get to know people and create those relationships. So well done that. Those are some good takeaways for all leaders to lean into.
And I hadn't really heard the digital as long as we've been doing this, the digital fluency aspect. So that to me is a real key one. And I guess this really goes right into the next [00:06:00] topic, which is culture. We all know. The saying, culture eats strategy for breakfast. Right? So it plays a significant role in career satisfaction, employee retention.
Tell me from your point of view and your experience, what does a healthy growth-oriented workplace culture look like? Especially in today's digital hybrid world and specific in the association space today.
Mike Moss, CAE: It's a great question. So I'm gonna start by saying it took me 34 years to get this terminology understood.
And it's everywhere. There's amazing organizations that run this discipline and that is being a learning centric organization. In being learning centric, it is really hard, at least it has been for me as a leader. It has been really hard to get this going and I'm still learning every day. And the simplistic side of being learning centric, which would is the cornerstone of our culture, which is you do something, you reflect on it, and then you do it differently.
And while that may imply I work in a silo, it may imply I worked in a team. It all has to imply that you're learning every day to do something in service differently. And to me, that's what's driving the [00:07:00] collaboration at sc. And so we can say all day long that we have a cultural collaboration, but if we haven't enabled that with a systemic approach that is in our job descriptions, it's a systemic approach that is in our daily expectations.
And we talk about it at every P two meeting we have is what did we learn to reflect on? 'cause not everything requires reflection, but what are we gonna do differently so that we can continue to move forward with our members? Who at times are moving a lot faster than we are. And at other times they're looking for us to model how to move forward.
So I think that's the culture piece I would offer is with learning centricity comes psychological safety. It needs to be a place where when I do my reflection, I feel okay in front of all my colleagues that what I'm gonna say is my reflection. It may not be a truth to everyone, but there's where we can collaborate and work together to make refinement.
And so I found that to be really helpful for us and also always reminding that we're mission centered. I know as nonprofits and especially as associations, man, we're all about that. But oftentimes we forget to remind ourselves that we're all about that. There's so many things coming at us [00:08:00] so fast all the time that recentering ourselves to be learning centric around our mission Obligations can be a real strong way to make sure we're aligned appropriately, resourcing appropriately, training talent, all those things.
So I do think for us, and what I would advocate is look into that learning centric organizational design. It's been really. I wouldn't say magical, but pretty close for us. Yes, we've transitioned out of the pandemic.
Christine Shaw: Yeah. That really resonates for a few reasons. Just this morning we talked about how to think, exercise and go away and reflect.
'cause if you do the same thing over and expect a different result, we all know. So I love that. And attaching that to psychological safety because I think oftentimes people. Operate from a place of fear. What if what I say is not the right thing or I'm gonna be judged, but offering that psychological safety is critical as well.
Mike Moss, CAE: Christine, if I may, I wanna build on that. What you said. There's awesome, and I wish I remembered where I learned this because the person or the organization deserves huge attribution for this. But on our whiteboards, we have the word fun, and what it stands [00:09:00] for is fearless, understood, and not alone. I love that and I wish I knew who said it.
We did not. I don't want to pretend like I came up with that. That's way too good for me to have come up with for sure. But that is to your point on psychological safety, is we are sometimes operating with mindsets of scarcity and fear. We wanna do growth, mindset, abundance and learning, but we have to remind ourselves that it's fun because we have to be fearless at times.
We're not alone. And when we're not alone, we're understood. And I think that's been a real cornerstone of those P two meetings that I referenced.
Christine Shaw: They say some of the best things are plagiarized, so I think the person would be more flattered. And I know for me this is a great takeaway. I hadn't heard that one before, but for sure I'm gonna reference that.
So thanks. And let's go back to what we talked about both at the beginning and in your last discussion is about purpose and mission. So talk about how you feel associations can better align career development efforts with that sense of purpose and mission to engage your staff and new hires.
Mike Moss, CAE: Yeah, I think it starts with value-based [00:10:00] hiring.
And as and assessment and value based onboarding. As much as I just totally went all in on mission in the previous discussion, I think it does come on now, is are we value aligned? And I'm gonna be very deliberate here. It's not about fit. I. It's about value alignment, and I'm not a big advocate of fit because it limits the type of experiences we can bring in potentially.
And not to be completely self-deprecating, but one Mike Moss at this group is enough because of the way I work. That's enough. I would love to be complimented. And so what I wanna be complimented is on my value commitment. And so if we look at the career. Recruitment as well as the onboarding and our career pathing around the value alignment.
It does open up a huge opportunity to have diverse experiences. Lots of different skill sets come in, and as we mentioned earlier, you don't have to have all the skill sets when you show up, but do you have a mindset that you can figure it out, learn it, wanna learn it, do the learning centricity? So I do think.
Alignment with mission is important, doing the value-based hiring and onboarding and then give everyone cross-functional exposure. And [00:11:00] I can do that easily at 18 people. I've worked at groups of 250 people. Obviously things scale differently, but be real intentional about that cross-functional exposure.
'cause that's when someone raises their hand and goes, gosh, can I take a shot at that IT job? And that's where we get that, that real nice retention. But we also get growth and we get new skills, new perspectives. So I think that's how I would align to that answer.
Christine Shaw: And that really segues nicely into professional development.
I think you in that answer previously, you articulated ways in which you help with professional development. I think both the encouragement of not waiting for every skill, but then this cross-functional. So tell me a little bit more about how you think associations can innovate in this area. Besides what you're already doing in your own association.
Mike Moss, CAE: I think all of us, including scup, do we need to get real good at peer-to-peer knowledge sharing? We all talk about silos. We all have learning that we have that we forgot to say out loud, but we're in peer-to-peer environments to knowledge share, create those opportunities. I think in leadership, it's our obligation to create that.
[00:12:00] And the other thing is you cannot invest enough in training. And I have to be held accountable to this by my peers at times because one of the easiest things often in crisis to cut is we don't need to do training right now. We just need to get through it. That has to be the last thing that you agree to cut.
Of course people and the training that goes with it. Last thing to do everything else you can because in that training investment, you're making a commitment to them for learning and career trajectory. And we all know we're not all gonna be here for 34 years. Some people are here for 18 months and some are for 18 years, and they all require a consistent investment.
And that investment. Projects the trust that we want in our development. We trust that you're going to put this to good use. I know I may not be investing in you forever. I am gonna make you a better X, Y, Z, whatever your path is before you leave here. That is my commitment as an employer. And I think that mantra of commitment to training and peer-to-peer knowledge sharing is something we all need to improve at.
Christine Shaw: I agree, and I think that my mantra is always, if I investigating you for training, even if you don't [00:13:00] stay long-term with me, I'm making you a better contributor in the overall economic world. So that's a win-win for everyone, and I do think employees appreciate that. I think it's great, and I think that everyone holding ourselves accountable, it's just the right thing to do as we think about making a better workplace for everybody.
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Christine Shaw: Let's talk y'all about somebody who may be just entering the association field. What advice would you give them and what type of meaningful connection should they be leaning into to help with their career development?
Mike Moss, CAE: Great question. This does not have to do with people's personality gifts, which is extroversion or introverts.
It doesn't matter for an extrovert or introvert, but you've got to build a network. And that's easy to say after you've done it for three and a half decades. It's hard to do when you've been out of college for three and a half months. But as you're considering entering the field, you have colleagues already.
They just may not be aligned to what you believe to be your trajectory. Talk to him anyway. My son has friends in all different industries. He's in agriculture. The place he learns the most about how he can then apply differently to his trajectory in a and agriculture is talking to people who are not.
Farmers. And so working with engineers and his friends [00:15:00] talking differently, but building up into connection of I know a person. And there's that old joke, everybody needs a person. Well, we do. So work on that. Work on finding your people and they don't have to be the logical, again, it's not linear. It's multi-directional now.
So build that ecosystem of yourself and when you're doing that, be sure that your own personal development as you enter any field in our amazing association world is cultivate adaptability. I have preferences. I have preferences for music, I have preferences for office setup, all the things, but sometimes it just doesn't play out that way.
And I had to cultivate a sense of, and a mindset of adaptability, which is of course very close to what we're looking for in employees, which is agility. I. Having that adaptability like this isn't perfect, but it's great for now. To your point, I may not be here forever, but here's what I can learn now that serves you as someone entering our field as a new person, and you'll find your path, especially if you're with an employer who knows that their investment in you is, as you described, you're gonna help everyone while you're here and we're gonna help you go where you want to go.
I think just putting all that together is the, [00:16:00] the network, the adaptability, and also don't. Get overstressed out with only knowing about association stuff, learn anything and everything. And again, like my son's doing, which I'm very proud of, is learn outside your own field and apply it to your own. And sometimes that's where some really interesting ideas come from.
Christine Shaw: Yeah, I couldn't agree with you more. The other thing I would add to that too is if you're an introvert by nature. Don't let that hold you back and lean on people to make introductions because I have seen so many positive outcomes by just having. Network. Network and leveraging that network. So I think that's great advice.
A little sidebar, I was in agriculture prior to joining the association world, so that's a great place to be. Good for your son.
Mike Moss, CAE: Oh, I appreciate that. Thank you.
Christine Shaw: Now you know, whatever industry anyone comes from, sometimes I. It feels like it's a niche or a click of people. Help us understand how associations can broaden their access and reach to people to make it more [00:17:00] inclusive and accessible to people who may not come from the association so we can have a more diverse pool of candidates coming into these space in general.
Mike Moss, CAE: Yeah, that that's everything, right? And what I would start with is a negative, which is if it looks like it was a job description that could have been posted in 1991, you've got to start over. That is the wrong job description. Don't start there. So start with where we need to be, where we are now, which is be really transparent about everything about your company and be.
Very transparent about the compensation, and while I appreciate that, there's state laws that vary, all the HR compliance things we have to do, the one thing we can all do is not post a range that says zero to 500,000, and just play the compliance game. Be real specific, and in that specific transparency, you are going to attract the hiring prerequisites that you're looking for because a lot of people.
We'll be looking for that transparency. I know what I'm getting into on the first interview. They're maximizing their time and you're maximizing yours. So it's like procedurally, I think those things are important, but then also in the [00:18:00] interview process, don't assume just because someone is a hiring manager with management experience, that equates to interview experience.
It goes back to our earlier conversation training matters. And so I've been fortunate to be a manager, but then as I became a hiring manager, I. At the time, I didn't get any training on the difference between having a conversation with a colleague and a conversation with a candidate. Those are materially different conversations.
So I think you got to make sure you're training so that it's not just about, make sure you say these words, Mike, but it's, it is make sure that you're having a conversation that brings out what they're looking for, what we're looking for. And that is not the same as talking to a colleague. And it also isn't the same as the like typewriter effect.
Interviews that we all grew up with a table of 17 people and you rotate around. I think we all need to be back to that adaptability. We all need to be more adaptable in how we're approaching candidates because a lot of them, as we've experienced in the first question, are remote. Yeah. I may not actually meet, and I have some stories here.
I have not met some of my employees until they're months on the job. In person. Yeah. Yeah. But that's a different experience, so make sure that [00:19:00] we're all ready for that, that digital experience. By training, don't assume, just because I manage people, I can manage an interview.
Christine Shaw: And to that point though, I do think that the remote hybrid has broken down some barriers about reaching out to a broader geographic area, which helps with diversity.
And going back to your networking, one thing someone taught me in my career is when you are networking. Ensure that you're going out beyond your inner circle, because that's where you're gonna get people who aren't from your little ecosystem, right? Like you're thinking of the example you shared about your son.
You're proud of him with engineering, reaching out, even though he's an ag, you don't know where that connection could lead to, or perhaps there's a really good candidate. Through a friend of a friend. So the more we can do that and not think so linear, I think it helps all of us. So
Mike Moss, CAE: that's, uh, and no one can see this, but I'm hitting the plus 100 button.
Oh, good. Awesome. That was awesome. Thank you for bringing that forward.
Christine Shaw: Certainly you have a lot of historical perspective and experience, [00:20:00] especially 34 years in association space. But let's look ahead a little bit. Do you have any trends or changes that you are anticipating will shape or develop associations over the next few years?
I can think of many that are going on right now in terms of advocacy and impact from funding to tax issues. So let me know what's on your mind, Mike.
Mike Moss, CAE: Yeah, and this is the farthest in the last two years I've made it in any conversation without saying ai. So we will just acknowledge, we know that's part of it, that the AI integration into our businesses, whether we're slow to adopt or fast adopt, there's the future workforce.
So we'll just honor that and leave that there. Yeah, we think we need to really think differently as associations about becoming hubs for continuous professional development. So being lifelong learning ecosystems and not just a place where people work. So this goes into the, I think the bigger collaboration issue for associations, if I applied any level of foresight to this would be we will not be standalone associations in the next five to 10 years.
We will be in ecosystems and the business models will have changed [00:21:00] dramatically. And it's from all the pressures we know are real, it's pressures we haven't figured out yet. But I think we, that's part of being in a lifelong learning ecosystem. So we have to adapt and we have to be calibrating our plans.
So one thing I would say, getting the planning head on for a minute. To this question is that we all write 3, 5, 10 year strategic plans and then try and work 'em. Two rules. Number one, never abandon your plan. And number two, always adjusting, recalibrate your plan. Yep. So if as things change what you wrote two years ago into a plan, or three years into a plan is not gonna be the same outcome, and having that outcome focus will determine then going to this conversation about career development, it will determine what skill sets you need for that next run.
Whether you run six months or six years on whatever you're doing. I think that's the adaptability that is coming. It's not the same siloed industry specific type associations. I do think if I could offer one thing is let's be open to this ecosystem of support that we need to use for the society to come, industry to come.[00:22:00]
Christine Shaw: It could be and open to the fact that it could look different than it does today, but it could be also more effective. I like also what you said too, is that a lot of times when something isn't working, the immediate instinct is to just whiplash and abandon your plan. But to your point, it might just need adapting.
Not throwing it out. So I think that's important. Mike, I've enjoyed this conversation as the leader and someone in this space there. You gave me a lot of good takeaways and some new things I hadn't even heard, and I'm really confident everyone else is gonna enjoy it as well listening to it. So I really wanna thank you for your time today.
Mike Moss, CAE: Oh, thank you. I, this was a great conversation. It could go on for hours, so I appreciate it. We, we got through it in a timely manner and appreciate also y'all's support of our industry. I don't care what other people do for a living, working in associations is the right way to think it, just to manage your career.
So let's keep people coming.
Christine Shaw: Great. At this point, I'd like to thank everyone for listening to this episode of Associations NOW Presents. Join us each month as we explore key topics relevant to association professionals, discuss the [00:23:00] challenges and opportunities in the field today, and highlight the significant impact associations have on the economy, the US and the world. And again, we wanna thank our episode sponsor, visit Omaha. So be sure to subscribe to our podcast on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you listen to your favorite podcast. For more information on career development and the association space, visit associations now online@associationsnow.com.
Thanks everyone.
