Moon (2nd Nature) - The Language of Dance - Noise of the Broke Boys - Episode 006

Moon, an amazing dancer from Korea, discusses his journey to America and how the language of dance helped him gain friends and family despite not speaking much English.

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A broke degenerate hooligan documents conversations about being a Bboy, Breakin', Hip Hop, Dance, Art, Music, Creativity, Innovation, and the slow subtle crumble of society in audio form.

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[Music]

in this episode I sit with a great

friend of mine moon Li this guy's like a

brother to me

we built our crew second-nature together

and have grown our love for hip-hop as a

family

he is a locker originally from Korea

that made his way to America to

eventually make a career as a dancer I

have learned a ton from this guy and

have a huge respect for his work ethic I

hope you can gain as much from his story

as I did please enjoy

hello everybody welcome to the ghetto a

show ever we are today on site in an

attic looking kind of kind of

questionable right yeah we don't have a

studio because we don't have a budget

our budget was $5 and unfortunately we

spent it all on Moon's haircut and so

without further ado today I have my good

friend mr. moon Lee K number one what

else did you go by go by my name now

yeah I think that's a good decision so

what's up man how you been good good

good how are you I'm good dude I've been

you know working hard trying to make

some stuff happen um with the show and

with my life and whatever and so you

know I know because you and I don't live

in the same area anymore we don't get to

talk as much and now so it's good to

have you here him so we can like catch

up and stuff yeah it's a good catch no

yeah

um so what I want to talk to you about

today is like how you got into hip-hop

because you know you are originally from

Korea and then you moved out here to

America basically to be a dancer and get

more involved in the hip-hop scene right

and I guess I want to I want to hear

your story behind then how you ended up

where you are today mm-hmm so actually I

came to America 2007 and when I first

came here how the

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came here as a just exchange student

mm-hmm I was gonna just study I was

gonna just learn English here and the

goal was just to learn English hmm and

nothing about dance nothing about

hip-hop or nothing about what I do now

hmm because in Korea back in the day

when I first started dancing and stuff

people didn't really take this as

courier we didn't have much of jobs

relate to like hip-hop or dance anything

Korean b-boys were very popular back

then I mean still do but still it wasn't

like their main job they had to work

somewhere else and pursue as a b-boy so

it wasn't in my head that I could take

this as my career so it was locking not

popular in Korea definitely not okay

definitely not popular how I got into it

was um it was type of kind of PE class

like you know you say here um cuz

education is very important in Asian

countries in general yeah and we stay in

school like almost like 13 14 hours a

day so and they put these PE classes

like one or two hours a week

not even a like a week and I had to

choose indifferent activities and I

chose to learn dance so it wasn't even

like locking it was just like dance in

general and when I first started taking

those classes I got to know about

popping and locking mainly so like I

don't even say I knew about hip-hop I

was more like funk styles

so I was listening to funk musics I

didn't really listen to rap music until

like I came here so I was very

interested in like funk music yes so you

were you you are introduced to funk

music from the dancing classes that you

took yes because they'll play those

musics to learn those foundations

locking foundations and popping

foundation and was it a lot of like

American funk or was it yeah yeah yeah

we did not we do not have funk music

Korea I think there's Korean funk now

though yeah like now I mean like even

back then there was similarities but it

wasn't for that yeah I guess it's blown

up a lot more since you moved yes yes

yes yes so that's how I got into it and

so it was just in a way of hoppy like

kind of way of kinda let the stress out

yeah all those studying and staying in

school for how many hours studying in

Korea sounds really crazy yes it's

pretty intense

my high school we started 7 a.m. and we

and like around 11 p.m. so what the heck

so like it's pretty it's pretty intense

you don't do anything except go to

school then pretty much but because it's

so competitive like some students would

go to like other places even study more

what the heck so because it's really

hard to get into universities and

colleges in Korea so that's just how it

is now I know that's pretty crazy thing

because I know how Americans are but you

know we only know what we have so I had

no idea that was pretty crazy

yeah that sounds crazy to me I mean dang

because typical school for an American

kid

high school kid I guess we would start

seven thirty or something and they would

go to like maybe three thirty or

something you usually have six classes

and there are all hour long and then you

know whatever break between them and

whatever we have like seven eight

classes to you know like classes are

pretty similar but we just have to stay

there to study your own that's crazy

yes like they force you to study your

own man I would go home in high school I

would just go home well I was doing

martial arts back then so I would go

straight to the studio take some classes

or whatever or train and then I would go

home and do my homework as I watch TV

and I mean like I half-assed all my

homework honestly but I got good grades

actually yeah but that lifestyle ends

for us around like 11 - oh really

like that's that's it after that you

have to study but back into the topic so

for me because I was getting a lot of

stress you know like lifestyle in a

Korean educational lifestyle so dance

really came to me as like outlet of

releasing my stress mm-hmm so whether I

knew it or not it was becoming my in a

way my love because it was so stressful

and that was the only thing that I liked

and those one hour two hours of a week

was very special to me

hmm so I just fed in love with that

whole culture I didn't know what hip-hop

was at all and all I knew was just bumps

tiles funk cultures so like my favorite

artists were like definitely James Brown

BT Express you know like those old

school school bands

gap band you know whatnot

so and I thought America would love bunk

still - yeah so when I first came here

20 years 30 years before that yeah yeah

I got I had no idea was like back in the

base stuff like I thought people will

still love funk music people will still

do the line dances you know like those

those were my expectations yeah I mean

people still do it but it's not as like

but not our age yes you know they are

out there doing the whatever this shit

yeah yeah we can floss dance and stuff

mm-hmm

so that's that's how I got into in a way

of hip-hop but I wouldn't still say

hip-hop because um I was kind of gainst

to 2007 modern hip hop's mmm so like I

wouldn't listen Lil Wayne out of listen

to jay-z like I wouldn't listen to them

to me like James Brown is my you knows

yeah yeah yeah yeah

so ya know I was actually the same way I

was really into funk music - and a lot

of the hip-hop I would listen to I was

like oh this it's cool like I like it

but there's something magical to the the

funk styles that actually influenced

these hip-hop artists I mean obviously

hip-hop has its own magic behind it too

but it was just like I guess I mean what

drew me into hip-hop was that you were

like making your own thing out of this

pre-existing stuff that and you would

get your inspiration from it and so I

got deep into like funk music soul music

and stuff and jazz music and so I was

really into that and then a lot of the

new hip hop artists I was like I don't

even know who they are and so I didn't

start listening to them till a little

bit later I mean I would listen to them

occasionally like jay-z Tupac and people

like that I used to be really big into

Dell back then but yeah I mean I that

definitely came after the phone against

all kick that I was on mm-hmm and that

was around like high school mm-hmm

but going back to like what you're

talking before you said that dance was

like a stress relief kind of thing for

you what yeah what do you think why do

you think that is like what about it

relieved the stress to you

I think first because we didn't like I

didn't have much of activities like

physical activities so that's definitely

like main reason why it kind of like

gave me a lot of freedom and like

release he's like I'll be sitting down

like hours of day and that typical hour

I cannot even sit you know like I have

to let it out and I have to like listen

to music and I had to basically move you

know so like that was definitely reason

why I think was that like the only time

you got to actually listen to music no I

will listen to Korean music so you know

like now kpop is popular one that but I

was listening to you know like when you

study your own like you yeah yeah so

yeah I will listen to music but

physically doing something with my body

with music yeah that was different

yeah definitely it's yeah okay so yeah

so it was I guess it yeah is the

physical activity mixed with this this

music this hypnotic kind of like music

that helped to relieve your stress and

so did you do you think that that like

inspired your creativity to and that had

something to do with it um at the moment

I did not know yeah but later now I

think about it yes I think it did and

then it kind of like enhanced my like

creativity you know like my art form and

whatnot so like it you know it helped me

a lot yeah I have like a theory that

that music and I guess kind of tip

repetitive type sounds um it triggers

something in our brains to make us

like turn off the thinking part of your

brain and turn on the more like

instinctual part of your brain which is

to make you move usually you know like

like in instance of like you hear a big

sound you go and you run mm-hmm I think

that somehow repetitive music clicks on

that part of your brain but instead of

you running and being scared or whatever

it's like going oh no this isn't a

fearful time this is a time to be

creative mm-hmm and so I think in the

same way that your instinct tells you to

run it's now your instinct is telling

you okay let we're not in danger anymore

we can do we can do some cool things

with with our mind and our body to you

know hopefully like instill our survival

or whatever you know and so you know I'm

not some kind of scientist that knows

anything about this but that's just my

theory because it seems like that

happens to everybody you know whenever

they are like painting or whatever

writing a lot of people will put on

music and it just gets them into this

new world where they can like shut off a

little part of their brain and turn on a

new part of their brain yeah yeah you

know I guess just shut off what is it

the right side of your brain and turn on

the left side the mhmmm that's your

analytical side to your your artistic

side mm-hmm so yeah I think somehow that

that is involved with dancing and and

why we're drawn to it it's like so

somewhat of a human instinct to want to

do it yeah yeah you know you see little

kids dancing around doing that I don't

notice your kid actually do that she

actually she actually dances she loves

music um you know like it's in their

blood it's in their blood her my

brother-in-law is music producer oh yeah

so like we yeah we like shout out to

Rudi shout out the rule are you oh yeah

we yeah we try to feed her like goop

musics and like you know different dance

moves try to like show her different

dance moves and

it's kind of amazing how this young

toddlers they just move freely yeah you

know it's like amazing to see to me

that's hip-hop when I see that cuz it's

like before hip-hop was even deemed

hip-hop right before it ever had a name

what was it it was people at like a

dance party just having fun yeah it was

like oh I like this part of the song or

like it looks like all the people and

danced for like this song let me play

that part of the song again dude it and

that's what a break was and then all

these people are just dancing and then

all of a sudden they just lose their

mind and jump on the floor and that was

breaking yep and so when I see a little

kid do the same thing you know when I

don't know you know some song old town

road or whatever song on the radio and

the little kid starts dancing and

rolling around on the ground I'm like

dude that is breaking right there that's

hip-hop that's like we built up the

whole culture of breaking and hip-hop

dance styles from that exact emotion I

like seeing that and it seems to me like

it's the best argument that hip-hop is

like is like a very deep instinctual

thing for yeah human beings beings yeah

so the next thing I wanted to talk to

you about is so like once you came to

America like how how did it feel coming

to America and like integrating into our

culture and like what was the

differences between here in Korea I know

you talked about school and stuff but

what else like cuz it seems like it'd be

a huge culture shock

it was definitely huge culture shock and

I actually the first city I came here

was our Albarn in like yeah yeah yeah

like so which is kind of country town

and like yeah like north of sack or so

yeah

okay it's in the mountain and I was like

literally Olli like few Asians in that

whole town oh yeah people freaked out

seeing me back then like not a problem

it's probably not because I saw the

sushi restaurant in there I was like

whoa like people who eat agent food yeah

yeah it was like it's changed but back

then it was pretty intense

mmm like people like I wouldn't

understand why people stare at me like

that and like I didn't know it was kind

of like I wouldn't say racism because I

say just because I was different

yeah I wouldn't say it was racist I

think it's probably that because I was

different yeah you just I mean cuz you I

mean you might have been wearing your

crazy Genie pants or something yeah you

know like they probably felt like I was

some type of clown you know like oh yeah

my fashion you know like how like

definitely I didn't speak a word in

English oh that might go yeah so people

just but yeah I mean people in Auburn a

lot of them are kind of like more

country type of people yeah

more rural they because it's a smaller

town north east of Sacramento and you

know people people out there I guess

have kind of a slower lifestyle not not

like a city in style yet running around

all the time it's like you know they

they'll have their big house somewhere

and then you know go to work and stuff

yeah but it's usually in the sea yeah

hey yeah much as much love to my town

that's all I burn is a great pad is my

town much love I love I love Auburn

actually well yeah it's it's to see you

know someone who looks like a kpop star

walking around they're kind of like oh

what's going on that's good like yeah

where's his horse so yeah um but

definitely I learned how to enjoy like

small things in life you know like

watching sunrise and sons

I never knew there was like such a

beautiful thing I never knew that until

I got there hmm and like enjoying just

landscaping just little things in life

is is there not a lot of them like

nature type of areas in Korea we do we

do but I'm from like very busy city

Seoul so okay so like our population is

like crazy yeah as crazy it's like the

biggest city in yeah the population yeah

population is so crazy and lifestyle is

just so busy you know like I guess if

that's all you've ever seen coming here

where there's a lot more space you know

Sacramento is kind of spread out and

definitely when you go to Auburn it's

even more spread out yeah you know it's

very you know you it's not like a city

at all there's no buildings that are

more than two or three stone yeah yeah

that's what I loved about though like I

could really see the sky yeah I could

really hear the birds sounds you know

like those things kind of like open my

eyes in a way those are the kind of good

parts and bad parts were like and yeah

these people will not accepting me yes

what I was you know so I actually came

up with my English name because of that

because I had yeah Charlie I used to

call myself Charlie because I had trauma

like if I say my name people will just

instantly react kind of like whoa what

is that what is that you know like what

is the Korean pronunciation like moon

hang wouldn't hang that my full name is

moon hang Lee but hang like a lot of

people can't pronounce it's like I got

tired of explaining like I do you know

what I'm gonna just go moon tell me that

you that Lee is pronounced something

different and yeah yeah it's actually E

right yeah we we go by E and then we put

last name first so like my name is e

moon hang but then here it changed to

Lee I don't know how like I don't know

i but you have to change it to Li huh

and here I'm moon Lee yeah that's kind

of weird so when you go to Korea it's

like you have a new identity or new like

names yeah names are completely

different so those little things oh and

my name being Korea horiuchi curt yeah I

mean I guess whore you Chi cuz it's a

Japanese name they're probably used to

that yeah Kurt I wouldn't I would

imagine they would have trouble

pronouncing that because I know in

Japanese they yeah now like Korea like

we we are very culturally open mm-hmm -

especially American culture yeah yeah so

yeah Kurt wouldn't be a problem okay

Karuma be a problem oh no like a

Japanese people call me cat oh because

it the yeah the air is like kind of a

weird sound yeah for them and doesn't

really exist in their language so so

yeah so when you came to America you're

in Auburn and then you were dancing

still right or like or were you just

working at the sushi restaurant and you

may oh you meant surf boogie boogie yes

shoutout to sir shoutout to cert boogie

yeah so I wasn't like really dancing at

first I was just going to school but uhm

because of language barrier and because

of you know like lack of human

interaction I kind of got into depressed

depression hmm because you know like you

wouldn't talk like I wasn't able to talk

to human in general yeah it's like ya

know I can imagine that that's cut it's

like it's I mean it's kind of like how

when my dog is like looking at me and

she tries to like tell me something I

know my I don't know what your job

exactly dog probably is like crap that's

the exact reaction I'll get from people

yeah so and I did

want to hang out with my people like

Korea's oh did not want to speak Koreans

in America yeah I was very strict on

that because I wanted to learn English

and I wanted to that this culture as

fully as possible

mm-hmm so so I kind of put myself in the

situation so I had to do something about

it

to get out of that depression mmm

that's when I you know started dancing

again on my own hmm so when was that

about that was about like 2007 so the

gap between starting and stopping it's

stopping in Korea and then starting back

in America how long was that like I kind

of stopped dancing because of you like

SAT back in Korea yeah so I had to

really focus on like studying okay so I

stopped about an year in half you're in

half I stopped and came back to came to

America so I'll say two years about two

years I stopped and I was like this like

I have to do something and yeah I

started dancing again on my own and yeah

and I was a boss er because they

wouldn't accept me as a server because

my English wasn't good so I was bussing

at this sushi restaurant and not in the

Opera and Albarn didn't did not have a

sushi restaurant back then yeah they

probably have one now but I don't they

do have they do have Asian food there

yeah so I had to like drive all the way

to Rockland and I used to work at this

sushi restaurant and they kind of knew I

was dancing this and that like in a way

and this customer came in and I guess

someone told him that I was dancer and

he was like you know what I'll battle

you for your tip like that it's rude

mean that's a hella rude right like

that's a hell

but to me it was like oh my god this is

like real America I know you know like I

watched the like you got served or like

all those real now I was like oh this is

America did you go and like put on your

vest and your glove because I had to get

hat work later so I told him like a my

break is in like an hour so I got wait

right yeah I was like and then he we

went out there and then he played music

through his car yeah yeah and we just

started battling and this was surf

boogie right if this was surfing the

white man the tall white man shoutout to

surf but then being a really great guy

so after like you know like I think we

danced about like 20 30 minutes straight

and then there was like one of craziest

experience in my life at the same time

like I never felt that happy in my life

like I still remember how I felt

yes I could not sleep that night because

he was I was so happy about it dang so

tight after the battle he was like oh my

god you're so dope obviously I did not

understand what he was saying he said

now I know but he was saying that like

how good I was and then he invited me to

this public performance with his crew

yeah and it was a flexible flame yeah

which was my crew which was your crew

and which became my crew later yeah and

but there was a performance for Martin

Martin Luther King Day yeah I still

remember that what was I there no you

weren't there Convention Center and

flexible Flav had a junior crew

I forgot their names whose legendary

legendre's yeah yeah me and my brother

started that me my brother and a bunch

of other people we started that crew

yeah and eventually when we went to

flexible Flav and then

and then yeah that crew continued on I

think by the time you came there was

like a bunch of other people like I

think we kind of revamped it and there

was a lot of people yes so like a young

you know like junior crew it wasn't

mainly legendary steps not the flexible

Flav but we they put the Flexi Flav name

I think did Vince um did he put together

that show yes okay that's where I met

Vince yeah okay so I met bill wasn't

there you weren't there huh you were not

there I mean I was going to UC Davis at

the time so I probably was so I met

Vince there and then I perform with the

crew flexible Flav and Vince was like so

interested in me Vince was very

interested in me and then he was like

why don't you come to our practice yeah

yeah and that's how I like first started

making friends mm-hmm I still couldn't

speak English but like I knew that he

liked my dancing yeah people like my

dancing so that's yeah that's how I know

I remember when you would come to

practices you would just be like killing

it like doing all your locking stuff and

like I don't know much about locking at

the time and so I would see you and I

was like oh dang this guy's going off

and I like I think I would walk up to

you and be like dude you're really tight

and you'd be like yeah I know you like

you know and then I think eventually you

understood like what I was saying or

like or whatever I mean I don't know how

somehow we communicated it a little bit

I mean it's probably just the language

of dance like yeah and you go oh you're

dope and you're like I don't know what

dope means but then I go and I shake

your hand you're like oh he probably

means it I'm dope yeah it's it's very

that's pretty interesting about human

like in erection yeah like you do not

really need language to communicate with

people that is one thing I really

learned through the

those moments yeah when you see someone

go like ah during your like round that

probably means that you dope you

definitely understand who who's

respecting you and you definitely

understand who's disrespecting you

without understanding language you know

so and because of dance and I'll say

hip-hop in general because we had very

common interest mm-hmm so I think that's

how I fell in love with hip-hop a lot

because hip-hop he pop because of

hip-hop I could make my first friend in

America because of hip-hop I did not

need language to interact with humans so

there was very you know like literally

like Americans say hip-hop saved me yeah

a little did that to me you know like I

wasn't in the ghetto but I was in like

you know all that Bronx and all that but

it literally saved me from getting

depressed yeah no I can see that I mean

I I feel like a lot of people would have

that same reactor they have a similar

story where hip-hop really did save

their life whether they were actually in

real danger or they were just in a dark

place you know hip-hop does have this

like thing that it kind of just envelops

your whole life and you're like it's

hard to be in a in a bad mood while you

are participating in it while you're

dancing while you're like deejaying or

whatever like you're making art with you

know whatever things you're trying to

make art with it's hard to be mad at

that you're during during that so yeah I

could see how that would pull you out of

a bad place yeah and after that you know

we made our own crew second nature and

that's everything how everything started

for me yeah and so then when we

once we made second nature we were like

you know our our mission was to like

make these show make really cool shows

just kind of pull in talents from all

sorts of different places because you

know we all a lot of us all had

different styles right yes yes and that

was like the the big thing that we

wanted to make sure that we always

because we you know although we liked a

lot of those those groups that had kind

of this one unit style like JA blocky

shout out to them they have this style

where like you know it's Jabbawockeez

mm-hmm they all like dance and it's hard

to tell because they would all wear

their masks and it's like hard to tell

who's who because they're so in sync but

for us we were like let's uh let's try

to pull in all these different styles

and try to figure out how they blend

together and make these make these

interesting shows and so mm-hmm I think

it was really fun to do that and I

really I really miss doing that actually

me too

I think we actually had that talk when

you visit Vegas mm-hmm we definitely had

something going on with that you know

like open minded people ya get together

and try to be artistic yeah I think what

was cool about it was that the vision we

had I guess the vision there wasn't

necessarily like set in stone it was

kind of like you'd have an idea and

you'd put it on the table and then I

would have an idea and I'd put it on the

table and then Vince would have an idea

put it on the table and then somehow all

of our brains just kind of click

together and then we just start

combining these ideas together and make

something out of all of it and you know

and then that's what we would just ride

with that and then as we go more people

were throwing their input and stuff and

we would just take it off and we never I

don't think we we were good about kind

of just saying let's just see what

happened yeah yeah we were really good

at that yeah just cause like sometimes

someone would have some wild-ass idea

just you I mean yeah I would have a lot

of wild outside because I I tend to just

say like I might as well just say it and

you know basically throw the shit at the

wall and hopefully you know I'm fine

with throwing as much stuff as I have at

a wall and if it all falls down it's

okay but if some of is good that's fine

and so um I like to do that and so when

I would throw it out there sometimes

people would go like oh I wonder what

would happen if we actually did mm-hmm

go somewhere sometimes though I think

everybody was really good about doing

that yeah yeah just thrown out there

wild ass ideas mm-hmm and we were just

all open-minded you know like we had

respect I think that's what got us

really together yeah we suspect yeah I

mean I think everybody in the group was

very knowledgeable about their specific

style of dance and they all everyone had

a very creative they came from a very

creative place and so you know everyone

was open to these ideas and so we all

would just kind of roll with it yeah see

what happens man yeah um so anyway so

like with second nature

eventually right you moved to Vegas

right to do jabberwocky show mm-hmm

right and so you did that for like a

year or so yeah

so at first I because I was only like

locking dancer I didn't know any other

style

I knew poppin a little bit yeah

locking and it wasn't really my my craft

you audition for those things yeah but

um this one summer I think was summer

Vince had this ticket to be booed

convention in Las Vegas it was UBC right

yes yes that's mr. Frieza thinks that

says yeah and Diane Diane Keaton Moreau

uh

remember her name but she got us tickets

and Vince was like um you want to go to

Vegas and I was like sure you know and

it was actually close to my end of my

time being in America so like I just

wanted to experience different things so

we went cuz your green card was running

yeah because of my visa was recently

yeah and so I'll said yes and then we

drove down to LA and then we audition

different things that was my first

audition in like America like industry

auditions and I experienced different

things there and then we went to Vegas

and Jabbawockeez performed at ubc mmm

and okay this was driving around Vegas

and I was like I told Vince a bitch

still remembers this moment too

I told Vince that hey I think this is

what I want to do like dance

I think dance is what I want to do and I

don't know how but I really want to

perform here Vince remembers that yeah

yeah and I told him that and year later

I think year later there was a dition

for Jabbawockeez cuz they were getting

their first resident show as a hip hop

crew in Las Vegas yeah this was like

maybe two years after they they won that

ABB show yeah yeah Erika's Best Dance

Crew yeah there's the first season I

think yeah they were the first winner

they they were the first winner and so

they were making a lot I mean they had

newly found popularity among like crowds

outside of Dance c'mon the dance

community and so they were sitting up a

lot of stuff and then yeah getting a

resident show in Vegas right and you

were one of the people that auditioned

for that yeah so I auditioned for just

for experience and luckily I got picked

and then I got picked to play a main

role so I got to play

their main role in Las Vegas and that

kind of put me as a first Korean to play

main role in Las Vegas and that's kind

of how I started my career I think so

after playing main role in their show

they trusted me enough to give me a 30

to run the whole theater because that

moment we were getting offered in

Australia and East Coast as well so we

had to prepare for three different shows

with three different cast yeah so they

yeah they trust me to run so they pretty

much gave me the theater Montecarlo back

the Monte Carlo theater now that it's a

park MGM and we had about 1,500 seats we

were performing about seven shows a week

and we did that about here yeah we did

that about a year and yeah there was

that just opened my eyes yeah that just

opened my eyes to it and they moved to

Luxor and that's when I kinda like um

stopped not stopped dancing I was still

dancing but I was doing the more

business side of them so I was in the

management side of the company and I was

that's when I learned a lot about

business because you know millions of

dollars are just moving in front of my

face yeah yeah that's where I learned

yeah was any of that flowing into your

pocket I'm like millions of dollars

they're not gonna miss this one million

no no it's just you know I was a salary

no it was you were seeing the huge

success of the Jabbawockeez show like

blowing up because at around that

time it was like the Jabbawockeez had so

much fame you know little kids were

dressing up as them for like Halloween

and stuffing it was like a cultural

phenomenon at that time and so they had

this show that was just blowing up and

so I went from like a crew of people

that were you know basically dancing at

a studio in in Sacramento and various

other places in California to like this

show that was you know how many shows a

night like right now I believe they're

doing ten shows a night at MGM right and

they were filling out their crowds so

there's tons of money coming here so it

was like a huge probably like business

shocked yes like oh dang we can we have

we can pull in money like that yes I

literally so cuz they had a like three

days deal it was just it was supposed to

be three days performing but it became

ten years contract with MGM so I saw

that whole progress in front of my face

yeah that's crazy so and yeah like they

gave me opportunity to learn and trust

me too

running yeah for them so big shout out

to Jabberwocky shout-out to Jabbawockeez

I would put a mask on right now but I

don't have a mask yeah when I get a mask

do you have a mask yeah I do I still I

still have masks that I were in the show

do you ever you ever just put it on like

at home and just like look at yourself

in your handsome fellow

yeah Jabbawockeez open my eyes changed

my career and taught me a lot of things

they're still my mentors yeah they're

still my mentors whenever I struggle

with this you know like I go to them and

talk to them and whatever I can do for

them I'll gladly do yeah yeah yeah and

they're still doing their shows out

there and yeah they're they're still

doing amazing they just finished

to worry in China or Japan they're

preparing new show in at MGM um they're

just you know working yeah working very

hard yeah

so after Java you went to do the Cirque

show which is Michael Jackson yeah and

so how what was that like cuz that was

like a brand-new thing just like that

Cirque was trying to put on in Vegas and

so you were like the first the first you

know group of people to like come to the

do that show right they had actually

creation members okay so I was kind of

like I was one of first people to join

the crew other than creation member okay

so they created show in Montreal Canada

oh and then they did like ear before I

joined okay and then they you know late

and then they moved it yeah change some

cast and then that's when I joined and

brought you in and then evolved the show

to what it is now yes yeah and you were

how you helped with the evolution

process right in a way but I wouldn't

take too much credit for Cirque du

Soleil because um a lot of things were

created before I joined and because it's

a big corporation there's not a lot of

room for me to change things

oh I see because there's a lot of like

you know contracts and rules and you

know that's one thing about working at

Jabbawockeez and working at Cirque it's

a big difference because Jabbawockeez I

really took the ownership and I care I

guess because I the way I look at it

it's like Cirque a lot of that comes

from like circus like right it comes

from an actual circus like established

I don't know what how to call it but

whereas Java was like it came straight

from like a dancer hip-hop community and

so you had these people that were

already they're very creative and they'd

like to collaborate with each other to

make something whereas like I feel like

the circus mentality was more like they

have they do the creation and then they

have the performance and then they pull

in all the talent and they go okay

here's what it is

mhm so Cirque du Soleil and has very

strict rules and like still nowadays our

show and beetles love there's a show

called beetles love by Cirque de Soleil

those are the two main shows that has

dance is there like main thing

so using dancers are still very new to

to settle yeah so they don't really have

that dancer culture and then so they

still they're still trying to build that

culture in it especially with our show a

lot of hip-hop dancers are in it so

that's where like they're still trying

to figure things out feel it feels like

it yeah that's yeah so yeah a lot of new

culture a lot of new things for them too

and yeah I'm just part of it and what do

you think about how they've embraced

hip-hop do you think they're doing it in

a good way or like it do you think it's

good for the culture the way they're

embracing it or do you wish that they

maybe like did something a little bit

different or like what do you think in I

guess from the standpoint of like the

best thing for the hip-hop culture

mm-hmm I don't think not yet they

influenced that much in hip-hop culture

okay

because cert is just trying to take

something and change too in the into

their culture because lay is

self is a big culture you know like

clown you know so sir it's a circus and

then they're saying I'm gonna pull in

this dance element into what we already

did exactly

whereas Jabba is dance job I see pop

yourself in yeah yeah and they're

pulling in you know whatever into that

show but it's just it's dance yeah

that's what it is okay so I think um I

know I don't know if I can talk about it

right now

oh yeah you don't have to talk about it

if there's some kind of NDA or whatever

you got but I don't work for Soto slave

forever so I might just say it um I know

they're working on making hip-hop show

okay a Cirque du Soleil that's right ya

know but I don't know how that's gonna

turn out to be honest yeah uh I mean I

guess the way that I look at it is like

they have a big platform to and a lot of

eyes on it that probably don't know

anything about hip-hop mhm and so when I

look at it and I go okay well they're

introducing people into hip-hop mm-hmm I

think that's a good thing and I think

maybe the there's ways they could maybe

do it better and I'm not speaking about

sort specifically but I know that

there's there's good ways to do that and

maybe like less good ways but I think

overall it's good that hip-hop is being

introduced to people

mm-hmm I wouldn't say it's it's bad in

any way but so I think it's at least a

step in the right direction

mm-hmm to have a hip-hop show cuz like

you know when if someone who had no idea

what hip-hop is goes in to see the show

and they go oh what is that they

wouldn't have had that initial interest

if they hadn't experienced that

mm-hm and so I'm hoping that you know

say like you know 50% of the people that

walk into the show go oh wow what is

that and then 10% of that go to look up

actually what it is or maybe

go take a hip hop class mm-hmm and then

they start learning more about it that's

like getting you know 5% of the people

that were introduced you know into the

real kind of hip-hop scene that so I

think it's a good thing and then the and

then the 50% of people that saw it and

then didn't you know didn't necessarily

look into it or take a class there at

least familiar with it someone they'd

see it again in their life they're like

oh I remember that that's this thing

that I saw in Vegas or whatever mm-hmm I

wonder what that is it seems to like be

more prominent now especially like you

know if they see like breaking in the

Olympics which is coming in like four

years or whatever they're gonna see that

again and going oh wow that's cool I

wonder what's up with that and then you

know I think more and more people get

exposed to it a certain percentage of

them are gonna be interested in it

interested in the the I guess the the

deep underground scene of what it is you

know get like deeply involved in it I

hope I hope it does you know I hope

people actually think that they you know

but as you know like you know our

generations it's really hard to get deep

into something yeah that's kind of how I

feel like you know it is and I think

that's maybe because there's not a lot

of resources to jump into it right like

so if if I went to a Vegas show and I

saw you locking in you know in your in

Michael Jackson's show and I go oh

that's cool what is that and then I go

on to YouTube and I you know I don't

know what locking is so I type in

Michael Jackson dance you're probably

not gonna find locking you know what I

mean you're gonna probably find a lot of

cool dancing and stuff so I think if

there's more resources out there so that

when someone who does see that like say

at the Michael Jackson's show and then

they do like some you know search some

I'll call it naive search of what it is

they're able to find what the real stuff

is so when they type in Michael Jackson

and then they see someone who goes like

oh here's the dance that was in the

Michael Jackson show this is actually

called locking boom they see it oh you

know who else here's some history of

locking here's Don Campbell lock here's

all these you know all these other

people and stuff and here's like some

battles that happen a month ago you know

here's a scene here's you know whatever

so it kind of pulls you down the rabbit

hole so I think maybe it's hard to get

down the rabbit hole at the moment but I

think we're getting to that point though

it's happening I think you know with age

of the Internet mm-hmm there's

definitely resources on the Internet

yeah but how easy they are to find I

don't know I think it's getting harder

to find to me you do yeah because there

are too many 20 informations and yeah

there's not a lot of regulations of that

you know like there's a yeah there are a

lot of people that'll go in there and

say this is the real things and they're

like yeah this is locking in it's like I

think that's just you know having a

seizure but yeah going back to that um I

don't know I can't really tell about how

Cirque de Soleil

um influencing hip-hop culture in

general but it's influencing hip-hop

dancers for sure it's opening a lot of

doors um we're making good money mm-hmm

with the great benefit you know that's

it's literally heart like impossible to

get as a dancer yeah like having it was

unheard of ten years ago yeah in it was

unheard of like it never happened me

more dance as a hip hop dancer was not

any career you could do it was a hobby

Yeah right now it's a career mmm and

like I mean I'm not big fan of 401 K but

uh-huh getting a 401 K as a hip hop yeah

that's crazy dude yeah like it's crazy

no yes that's insane because it's it's

totally unheard of yeah

and for before now mm-hmm so it

definitely influencing hip-hop dancers

in very positive way Jose

open a lot of doors and you know a lot

of dreams a lot of young people can like

argue their parents hey mom I can make

them as many yeah yeah yeah who did this

hip-hop thing yeah and I'm hoping the

more and more hip-hop hip-hop dance

gets into the forefront of the community

that it becomes more of a viable career

mm-hmm beyond that like I'd like to see

it we're dancers hip-hop dancers get

recognized as like legitimate athletes

yes because that's what they are I mean

I think they're more than just athletes

because it's obviously the focus of it

is the creatives behind it so it's like

they're there are buses and and athletes

and so much more I mean it's but yeah

the the recognition yes it's not quite

there and it's definitely not where it

could be mm-hm so I'm excited to see

breaking in the Olympics because I think

that that's maybe a step in the right

direction because like I look at it as

if if if breaking is like skateboarding

which I think it very it is very similar

it's like a mm-hmm it's a counterculture

yeah I think that's the closest thing

yeah skateboarding was just like we got

this board with wheels and I figured out

how to do these cool tricks with it and

then a bunch of other kids picked up

skateboard and they started doing the

same cool tricks and then eventually

people saw it and was like oh those are

cool tricks I want to see more of it and

then it spread around through little

like VHS tapes all you know all around

the country and so more people more and

more people were seeing it and they're

like oh cool this is something cool and

then you you get some like legit

celebrities like Tony Hawk that you know

kind of make the make it blow up you

know and they get the X Games

stuff and that's kind of where he got a

lot of his fame from but you know they

get the X Games and so now it was on

like more public platform mm-hmm so more

people saw and it just blew up to the

point where there's like video games and

stuff and I think breaking has the same

kind of appeal to it yes I think hip-hop

dance has a lot has the same kind of

appeal to it people see it and they'll

go you know that is really cool I like

watching it I don't know what it is but

let's let's keep watching it I want to

see some competitions of it you know and

so then that's where like the Olympics

comes in or like the X Games or whatever

I mean I don't know what that looks like

in the future but it seems like it's

forming in that direction where it's not

just some underground thing it's more of

a publicly respected art form and yeah I

mean almost like a sport I would say you

know it's said I think it's very similar

to skateboarding and a lot of other

extreme sport yeah and and mixed martial

arts yeah you know they both I think all

those things started out very like

underground it was just like a small

community was into it and they all

started like more more people started

getting involved in it in it I think the

whole scene got their self together to

form like a sport a legitimate sport and

I think that that's what breaking is

going towards right now and I'm hoping

the other hip hop dance styles start

doing the same thing and we see it

emerge as like this legit sport I know

there's a big debate in the community

like is is it okay that we call it a

sport because it's it's an art form

above everything yeah for sure but in a

way it's different than an art form -

yeah typical like the way I look at art

I mean art can be anything but like if

we were talking about painting right

nothing in the painting culture is like

like competitive out saying you know

other than oh I want to you know get

this grant or whatever to do this

certain art work but like in hip-hop

dancing there's always been this

competitive nature too like a battle

somebody right mm-hm and so in a way

that does put it into a sport category

too because you know that I would say

the difference between it is the

competitive nature right in competitive

is a sport and that something that's not

competitive is maybe more of an art form

breaking sits somewhere in between that

too and so we don't want to lose we

don't want to lose art form to become a

sport yeah but you you got to also admit

that there's some sport qualities to it

so I'm interested to see where it ends

up yeah I'm very interested like I'm

very interested in how they're gonna

judge yeah you talk to a lot of people a

lot of b-boys on this podcast actually

about how the judging is gonna go

because I mean I don't know we're at an

hour right now we can talk about this

actually

um so like cuz when I look at it the

judging goes like this normally you have

like three judges or five judges or

whatever and they go they watch this

battle and they go okay I like that guy

yeah it's more personal

yeah and it all comes down to like their

subjective opinion about that and so now

when you go to like the Olympics or

something they're they're gonna require

some criteria yeah so yeah you you know

you as a judge you voted that way but

why and then you go oh well he he showed

more musicality he showed more

foundation he showed more dynamics

whatever you want to say and then they

go but how do you quantify that exactly

and then I think it all breaks down at

that point it's like okay well

I say his was better than his but where

did you call like what's the quantity

yeah but what like so I gave this guy

five points I gave that guy four points

for his let's say dynamics okay but why

mm-hmm it all breaks down from there

because then you go okay well he did

this freeze a little bit sharper than

that guy mm-hmm and then you go but this

guy's freeze was different from his

freeze so you're comparing apples to

oranges right

and then he go okay well yeah maybe his

freeze was a little more difficult his

was sharper but he also did it into this

other movie and it's like yeah but

you're still comparing apples to oranges

so everything breaks down at that point

because now it just goes to this your

subjective opinion about yeah about the

dance

yeah I personally I like that that's a

part of the judging that you get these

judges and they go I I like this more

than this just as a dancer because it's

it's it's fun for me to watch this

compared to that and so in the judge in

judging I don't want to lose that but I

also want to be able to quantify it so

that it makes sense to other people that

don't understand it yeah and so on this

on the on the Olympics platform I don't

know how you do that and I've been

talking to a lot of people and I don't

think anybody has really figured out a

good way to do that yeah I don't think

anybody has figured it out yeah you know

and so the thing the thing that I've

been telling a lot of people that I that

maybe is how you got to do it is you say

okay well we have we have this let's

call it bias you know each judge is

gonna have their own bias towards

certain thing yeah and it all comes down

to what they like and what they don't

like we don't want to lose that aspect

so let's just say okay that counts us

something

but we don't want to have one judge

completely dictated because they have

this bias because we're gonna we're

gonna embrace that there's a bias but

let's also let's also get more judges to

help weed out bad biases you know what I

mean and so my thought is that instead

of three judges instead of five judges

let's say you had twenty judges right

and they all give their opinion they're

all from different areas different eras

or whatever you know they all have their

different opinions about it and the

majority of them say this guy won over

that guy won I think that means

something especially when you look at

what we're like braking and hip hop

dance started from it started as like a

competition between two people at like a

dance party and what were you trying to

do you were trying to outshine the guy

you're going against yep by showing off

essentially and who are you showing off

to you're showing off to your opponent

obviously but also to the crowd you were

trying to get a good crowd applause so

my thought is that if your crowd now is

a lot of knowledgeable judges

you're staying true to the history of

hip-hop still and you're not losing this

important opinion and art creative based

judging but you're also weeding out

opinions that aren't the minority maybe

mmm-hmm maybe there's some more problems

that come along with that I don't know

there there could easily be that because

you know I think there are legitimate

parts of the dance that go as like an

under underdog kind of opinion but they

do matter so a lot of those might not

shoot up to the forefront of it but I

would say if you're getting if you're

pulling judges a lot of judges from you

know unique places in the dance you're

at least you're at least getting a good

sample of everything that the culture

to offer and then you know allowing that

to choose the winner I think maybe

that's the most honest way to do it I

don't know if regular Olympics fan or

you know people who watch the Olympics I

don't know hip-hop would understand that

that's my question too but I'm hoping

that there's some way to like explain

that to them that the individuality the

creativeness inside this is very

important and that is why the judging

system is set up in this way that's not

as quantitative as other sport other

Olympic sports such as like gymnastics

or like you know whatever martial arts

there's basketball or whatever so yeah

that's ongoing discussion we can talk

about it all day long all day long yeah

I mean I've talked to so many people

about it and yeah we're all kind of we

throw out our ideas and we don't really

know what's gonna happen but I'm hoping

that they have a good community of

people that are contributing to what

they're gonna do for that and I'm

excited to see what happens yeah I'm

hoping that pop culture gets that

recognition and publicity and risk back

from like you know this word yeah but I

don't know if I'm a big fan of that

becoming an Olympic mmm category yeah I

don't just to me just personally it just

- it seems out of place in the Olympics

to me exact but I don't want to hate on

it yeah it's a good opportunity it is

great opportunity and it's it's it's

showing me that the Olympics is growing

into a new into new things now you know

I think breaking maybe makes more sense

I mean it's its own thing but it seems

more like something in the X Games to me

yeah but even that is

different - it's it's hard to place it

where it is but I take I'll take what we

can get to be honest yeah and and make

do you know make make it into something

good and maybe maybe it does a couple

years in the Olympics and then it goes

somewhere else but I think that it's a

good opportunity to show that breaking

and hip-hop is ready for it something on

this scale and the community welcomes it

yeah which I'm hoping the rest of the

community does welcome it and doesn't

just straight-up hate on it I think

there's a lot of people that do hey

there's a lot of people hating on it

yeah yeah and I think they have good

arguments for it yeah I definitely

respect those opinions deal because

they're looking at it saying like this

is an underground thing we don't want to

like get rid of the underground rawness

of it yeah and I agree with that too

because like that's that's one of the

main things that I love about it is that

you know what drew me into it was that

this was something that you know

breaking is breaking in hip-hop is just

this counterculture of stuff you know in

my life everyone's telling me do this do

this do this and do this and then I

found breaking and they were like oh you

don't need to do that what you just did

is cool how about you just go with that

and just keep playing with that and

we'll see what happens with that you

know so it was encouraged to just try

different things you know so that's what

brought me into it cuz I was it was one

of the only things in my life that you

could just say you know fuck everything

I this is me I can do what I want here

and then yeah I don't know there's not a

lot of things I think in this world that

you can do that with but it's like

definitely encouraged in the hip-hop

world to just say yo we we like you so

put you into everything you do mm-hmm so

anyways I think we're hitting this yep

hour and fifteen minutes or so is there

any last things you want to say I think

we talked a lot about some interesting

yeah we went definitely out of plan

there's no yeah it was very interesting

conversation um I don't know if you are

listening to this and you like I

literally started like I never thought

I'll be an industry dancer yeah I never

thought I would qualify for that um

but wherever you are just working hard

and do what you can do the best always

take you somewhere else then you think

you can mm-hmm

so it definitely did that to me hmm so I

will encourage those people who kind of

doubt yourself yeah cuz that's not

really that's not that's really not it I

believe what you can dream of you can

actually accomplish so it's all about

believing yours yes and just you know

you know having the vision for it or

maybe even not the full vision but

having something yeah just yeah going

and moving towards ya you know and even

if you move a little bit away from it or

take the step in the wrong direction you

know this is not this is not a race this

is a journey so yeah see own yeah so

feel feel free to adventure around and

and but you know don't don't let the

fear of it keep you from taking that

step yep and be open-minded be

open-minded open-mindedness is important

I mean that's what hip-hop is is

embracing the open mindedness of it and

and I think every hip hopper would say

yeah the hip hop is about being you it's

not about being this other guy in fact

it's discouraged to try to be somebody

else it's that you know you're a biter

you know your copy or your opposed

if you're doing that right we want to

see what you are so mm-hmm

take take your you know your your own

personality put it into everything you

do and and I think if you do that then

you are doing it correctly you know no

matter what the result of it is you're

doing it right that's that's the right

way to do hip-hop yeah that's it dope

man well thank you for coming on here I

think this was a great conversation do

you have any where people can reach you

they want to reach out not yet

no I kind of disappeared online cuz I

was kind of big on like social media no

internet but I kind of wanted to check

if I could leave without it so I deleted

yeah yeah yeah I deal with all that and

I'm totally fine I think I feel you on

that because social media and stuff gets

crazy and like about five years ago I

was the same way I just like I gotta cut

myself off of this yeah and once I did I

didn't miss it at all mm-hmm the only

thing I really use pretty often is

Facebook because like my family and a

lot of my friends are there and so I can

communicate with them but I'm not on

there getting involved in all the like

discussions and stuff it's more like

it's more like you know someone hits me

up on there and says hey there's an

event going on oh cool I'll see if I go

yeah that's about it for me right now

you know so you can't really find me

well I found you somehow somehow and

glad you came because this was a great

conversation so thank you for coming and

thank you guys for listening and camera

just turned off so it looks like it's

done with this shit too so see you guys

later peace

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