Talkin‘ Politics & Religion Without Killin‘ Each Other

Thomas Chatterton Williams - SUMMER OF OUR DISCONTENT: The Age of Certainty and the Demise of Discourse

2025-08-08

What happened between the election of the first black president in 2008 and the reelection of Donald Trump in 2024 that's led to "the age of certainty and the demise of discourse"? Well, as the brilliant writer Thomas Chatterton Williams recounts in his new book, there was the SUMMER OF OUR DISCONTENT. In this episode, we get to sit down with Thomas—staff writer at The Atlantic and also author of Losing My Cool and Self-Portrait in Black and White. We explore race, identity, cancel culture, and the importance of preserving liberal va...

In this episode, we get to sit down with Thomas—staff writer at The Atlantic and also author of Losing My Cool and Self-Portrait in Black and White. We explore race, identity, cancel culture, and the importance of preserving liberal values in a polarized society.

What We Discuss:

How Thomas’s biracial upbringing shapes his worldview
The story behind the “Letter on Justice and Open Debate” in Harper's
What happened with the Poetry Foundation and cancel culture
Why “moral clarity” can be dangerous when journalism becomes activism
How 2020’s protests shaped national politics and the rise of MAGA

Episode Highlights:

[00:01:00] Thomas shares the story of his parents’ interracial marriage
[00:07:00] Growing up in a household full of debate and thick skin
[00:09:00] Drafting and publishing the Harper’s letter and its backlash
[00:13:00] The Poetry Foundation controversy and institutional capture
[00:25:00] Why “moral clarity” fails when we don’t agree on morality
[00:39:00] The link between 2020 protests and January 6th
[00:45:00] Can Democrats win the center—and what candidates can break through?
[00:48:00] The toxic effects of social media on how we see each other

Featured Quotes:

"You can't really have social justice without tolerance for viewpoint diversity." – Thomas Chatterton Williams
"No one agrees on what’s morally clear. That’s why objectivity still matters." – Thomas Chatterton Williams
"People don't talk that way in person. Social media strips us of our ability to imagine someone’s humanity." – Corey Nathan

Resources Mentioned:

The Summer of Our Discontent by Thomas Chatterton Williams: https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/704632/summer-of-our-discontent-by-thomas-chatterton-williams/
Harper’s Letter: https://harpers.org/a-letter-on-justice-and-open-debate/
Thomas’s work at The Atlantic: https://www.theatlantic.com/author/thomas-chatterton-williams/
Thomas on IG: www.instagram.com/chattertonwilliams
Thomas on Twitter: x.com/thomaschattwill

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