Books Mentioned:
For White Folks Who Teach in the Hood... and the Rest of Y'all Too: Reality Pedagogy and Urban Education (Race, Education, and Democracy) by Christopher Emdin
The Defining Decade: Why Your Twenties Matter--And How to Make the Most of Them Now by Meg Jay
Supercommunicators: How to Unlock the Secret Language of Connection by Charles Duhigg
How to Know a Person: The Art of Seeing Others Deeply and Being Deeply Seen by David Brooks
Connect with us:
Baylor MA in School Leadership
Jon Eckert LinkedIn
Twitter: @eckertjon
Center for School Leadership at Baylor University: @baylorcsl
Jon Eckert:
Welcome back to the Just Schools podcast. Today we are here with Dr. Tami Dean, who is a new friend to me, but she is friends with Dr. Gabrielle Wallace, who is one of Baylor's finest doctoral students and graduates. She was the connection here. So, anybody that Gabrielle recommends, we all should get to know. So, you run Dragonfly Rising LLC. So, I'm really curious about the name and why you started this organization.
Dr. Tami Dean:
Well, yeah, I know because Dragonfly Rising has nothing to do with equity, and that's exactly what Dragonfly Rising does. It support equity and education. How I came to do Dragonfly Rising? Well, that's a huge backstory, but essentially my entire educational career has been focused on social justice and equity and education. I hit a crossroads in my career, and I also lost my sister shortly before I started this company. So, it was just one of those things where the life just all happens and here it was born. So, I debated for a long time about the name, whether to go with this, and I had actually some divine intervention from an unknown party, and I actually feel like this is how God speaks to me all the time. He sends someone to say something to me. So, I was talking to someone, I was totally unexpected, and I had been playing with the word Dragonfly and Rising because they really speak to me, so hence the name.
So, Dragonfly actually connects with colon cancer. My sister was 42, she passed away from colon cancer, and the Dragonfly is a symbol of your loved one just being around and still with you, even though they've left, they're still here and they make their presence known. So, the Dragonfly is for her and honoring her because she would be very proud and super excited about this. Then Rising connects to my own personal, just life, overcome lots of challenges. "Still I rise," Maya Angelou, who's my mantra, if you want to call it that. So, hence the name Dragonfly Rising, coming together. So, even the colors, right? Yellow is my favorite, green's my sister's, and blue is the colon cancer. So, even our logo brings all of us together, and I really actually feel equities about relationships and getting to know people and what a better name? I can always explain it. It's a great story. I believe in the power of narrative, so...
Jon Eckert:
No, that's great. So, what's the primary focus of your work at Dragonfly Rising? I love the name, by the way.
Dr. Tami Dean:
Thank you. Our primary role is to support educators, educational leaders with implementing social justice, diversity, equity, inclusion, really looking, examining those systems, building in resources for how to support teachers. So, I do coaching, consulting, and speaking around those topics to just help support an equitable learning environment for all students.
Jon Eckert:
So, right now, in the current culture we're in, things get super polarized over things. Even a lot of the words that you just said, you said 'belonging' originally, and even that word I've heard people say, "Oh, well, 'belonging', what is this?" I went recently to a UNESCO conference on inclusive education because 250 million kids worldwide are school age and not in school. So, it's about literally trying to educate each kid, it's so that they have the access to education. When I told someone I was going to a UNESCO conference on inclusive education, somebody was like, "Well, that sounds pretty left to me." I was like, "No, it's trying to educate each kid." He's like, "Oh, okay. So, it's not that DEI, I in DEI." So, what boggles my mind is, as educators, our whole goal is to create a culture and climate of belonging for each student.
Why is that controversial? That's always been a little bit of a rub for me. So, how do you cut through some of that noise to get to the relational piece you mentioned that is at the heart of teaching, that it's seeing and knowing and helping a child become all that he or she was created to be in this powerful way, without getting hung up in all the politics of that?
Dr. Tami Dean:
Wow, that's a huge question.
Jon Eckert:
Yes, yes.
Dr. Tami Dean:
Well, I think one of the most important things you said was the relational piece, because really, inclusivity and belonging is about taking the time and the opportunity to really listen and understand and value each person as an individual. So, what that moves away from is stereotypes, implicit biases. So, even the idea of this idea like, "Oh, that's very leftist." You've already made a judgment around what this means. I agree, it's super polarized, it's super political, and it really shouldn't be because, to me, diversity, equity, and inclusion is about humanity and being a conscientious and thoughtful human to the other humans with which I'm engaging. None of us respond well when people make negative assumptions about us. So, I guess the way I break through the noise is by really listening to people and having an open dialogue and conversation. Versus it's not about chastising. It's not about, "You're wrong, I'm right."
It's really about how do we listen and come together as humans to value the individuality of each and every one of us. That includes our students and seeing them and recognizing that actually seeing people and listening to them for who they are is actually really essential and key and important.
Jon Eckert:
Right. So, it's an innate human desire to be seen, known, and loved, and we communicate love through seeing and knowing, and it's why teaching is infinitely interesting and also really hard because in a room of 30 learners, if you're the teacher in that room, the only thing for sure is no one in that room learns exactly the way you do. So, that makes it so that it's challenging, but also really, it never gets boring. We always have meaningful work to do as educators.
Dr. Tami Dean:
Yes.
Jon Eckert:
So, that's the blessing and challenge of what we do. So, as you've done this work, or some of your previous work in schools, what's the most hopeful insight you've had as we move forward? We already highlighted some of the polarizing and the othering that goes on and not seeing other, and trying to separate ourselves, but what's the most hopeful insight you've had?
Dr. Tami Dean:
I think what's most hopeful for me is I see that people want to do better. They want to know more. They want to engage differently. They're wanting to be reflective of their own self. So, I'm hopeful, because there are people, despite some of the challenges, still trying to find ways to move through and do this very important work and connect with students and build culturally responsive learning environments, and they're doing all these things and they're using their voices. Because there's power in the collective of us all saying, "This is what's great for students. This is what is great for teachers." If you're an administrator, you need to set up that environment for your educators too.
Jon Eckert:
Right. So, many administrators will say, "We need to see each student. We need to serve each student," but then we're not seeing and serving each educator. If you don't have flourishing adults in a building, you're not going to have a flourishing community of learners. So, how do you bring those things together? Again, that's the beauty of leadership is seeing and knowing and loving and encouraging and catalyzing the people in your organization. So, that includes educators and students. So, I think sometimes we can have blind spots where we see certain students or we see certain educators, we don't see others, or we see students and we don't see educators, or we see educators and we don't see students, when in fact we are called to see each person. Again, that's the beauty of the relational piece that you're talking about. So, as you think about that, that's the most hopeful insight you have. What's the biggest challenge you see to doing that? Because I think that's at the heart of what we do as educators. So, what's the biggest challenge to doing that?
Dr. Tami Dean:
Well, I think the biggest challenge, honestly, is we have a whole bunch of people that aren't educators trying to tell educators how to educate.
Jon Eckert:
That is a nice succinct statement. So, I can say having been at the US department of Ed in two different administrations, that that was a frustration many times in the book that I just wrote last year starts off with this story about a leader in one of the administrations, which will not be named. I was in a Democratic and Republican administration. So, I'm not throwing anyone under the bus here.
Dr. Tami Dean:
You're not throwing any shade?
Jon Eckert:
No, no. But she talked about how we needed to de-complexify things for educators, and that's not a word. I said, "Do you mean simplify?" She said, "Well, yeah." So, this federal bureaucrat, I tell this story all the time and I've told it on this podcast. She said, "Well, we just need to de-complexify these things." So, she had complicated the word for simplify in a condescending way for educators, and that's the thing that drives educators crazy. Now, certainly, we get very myopic. We see the classroom that we have, the kids that we have, we see those needs. We don't see the 30,000-foot view, but you can't get the 30,000-foot view if you don't also have that classroom view, if you don't see each kid. So, you don't want to miss the forest for the trees, but you also don't want to miss the trees for the forest.
Dr. Tami Dean:
Right.
Jon Eckert:
So, the way you do that is through relationship. So, how do we do a better job building relationships? This is a societal challenge right now, but how do we do a better job building relationships between educators, researchers, policy makers, community members, students, and educators working together? How do we do that better? Do you have, what's your best recommendation or two or three ideas, how we could do a better job of that?
Dr. Tami Dean:
Well, I just really wonder when are we really listening, and I'm going to come back to listening. When are we really listening to the different perspectives from all of those parties and bringing them together to talk about the nuance of what happens? Because we tend to work in silos and think we're doing great things. At one point, I was a professor working in academia, and the biggest people say, "Oh, you're in a silo and you're never in schools." But the research that's happening in higher ed institutions is really important and informs, or should inform what's happening in schools, but they can't happen in isolation. Then you listen to business owners and they're saying, "We need people that can be creative and think and find answers and solve problems." But then you have another layer saying, "We're going to have all these standardized tests that don't actually have people doing that," and then we have these tech prep.
So, there's not a vision for, what is it that makes a great education in the United States? So, if we come together and... We need a vision statement, we need a strategic plan really for education in a way that aligns and listens to all of these perspectives. Now, I don't think that's easy, but I do think that's what we need, because all of those perspectives are valid and bring in a different perspective to get us to a better whole picture, because what we're doing right now isn't working.
Jon Eckert:
Right, right. No, that's well said. I do think I've read two books in the last six months that were super helpful on listening, and I'm curious if you've come across them, but 'How to Know a Person' by David Brooks, and he says, the whole point of knowing someone is through conversation. You can have nonverbal communication and you can do things with people, but we really know someone by listening well. Then the second book, which is more on the neuroscience side of it, less on the relational soulful side, which is where David Brooks, there would be more of a metaphysical piece to it, as well is Charles Duhigg's book, 'The Super Communicators', and it's the people that do this well that are amazing at matching other people's conversational style, being able to elicit stories, share stories.
Christopher Emden writes about it 'For White Folks Who Teach in the Hood... And the Rest of Y'all Too', where he talks about barbers who are so good at eliciting stories, and he has his pre-service teachers learn from barbers about how you elicit stories. So, I'm curious to know if you're seeing any research out there that really helps educators, because the three books, one of those was for educators, the other two is just for general population folks, thinking about how you just get to know people better, relationally. How do you think educators can listen better to each other and their students? Do you have any quick practical tips that you've seen work, other than just really be genuinely curious, which is hard to force someone to do, how do we do that?
Dr. Tami Dean:
Well, I think number one, you need to check your assumption and your bias.
Jon Eckert:
Okay.
Dr. Tami Dean:
Because unintentionally, and I actually talk about this a lot, I think teachers come with the best intention, based on my historical knowledge as an educator in students that I've had and can make assumptions about a certain student's story and whether that student looks like me or not, or comes from a similar background than me. We make assumptions. So, checking that bias and coming with a clean slate of really paying attention, noticing and naming what the student's doing and listening to what he or she has to say and allowing them opportunities to have voice in your classroom. Because if you're the only one speaking, if you're the only one asking questions, then you're really not getting to the heart of being able to get to know the students in your room.
Jon Eckert:
No, it's so well said. I think the best teachers are the ones who are genuinely curious and really know that the classroom is not about them. It's about what their students are doing. So, I do think there are some inherent pieces that some people come to more naturally, but if you're not naturally curious about someone, you need to find things to become curious about. So, how can you not be curious about middle school kids and what's going on in their heads? How can you not?
Dr. Tami Dean:
Well, they're the best. I always think they get a bad rap. I taught middle school for a while, but if you don't know, take a tool, find a resource, do an identity web, what do they say about themselves? But I will say part of this is you have to be a little bit vulnerable and share a little bit of yourself, as well, because students know when you're being authentic or not just like any other person, I say this all the time, right? Students are just smaller humans. They're just younger. They enjoy and want the same things we do as adults. They're still figuring it out. I mean, shoot, adults are still figuring it out, to be honest, but...
Jon Eckert:
True.
Dr. Tami Dean:
A hundred percent right? But be a little bit vulnerable and share a little bit about yourself. Don't got to tell them your whole life story, but if you share a little bit, you're building trust.
Jon Eckert:
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Tami Dean:
So, trust is an important piece of this equation because it builds an opportunity for honesty and bring your humanity. I always say, "Bring into your classroom and bring the joy," because no one wants to be in a boring environment.
Jon Eckert:
Brown really punches me in the gut every time I read that, "I want to trust someone and then be vulnerable." But she makes it very clear, vulnerability comes before trust. You don't know if you can trust until you've been there. It's a very biblical principle. If we know that we hold this treasure in jars of clay, that we are broken individuals, then there is an obvious vulnerability to everyone else. So, why do we try so hard to try to hide it? So, when we have that appropriate self-disclosure, that then elicits it back, because people learn more from us through our mistakes and our weaknesses than they do from us trying to present some put together. We've got it all figured out because we all know, I'm old enough to know that that's a foolish narrative. So, really, really helpful wisdom there. So, I always wrap up with a lightning round where I ask three or four questions that we try to answer in a word, phrase, or sentence. So, what is something you think every educator should know?
Dr. Tami Dean:
Well, I think every educator should know that students want to learn and parents want their students to learn.
Jon Eckert:
So, you've already mentioned the loss of your sister. You've mentioned some of the challenges you've been through, but is, if you were just to give us a nugget, what's a challenge that you personally have overcome or at least have made significant progress on, if not fully overcome?
Dr. Tami Dean:
I think not taking people's responses to your authenticity, personally.
Jon Eckert:
Oh, that's impressive if you've gotten there, that's a tough one
Dr. Tami Dean:
That would be not all the time, I've just made some progress, but, yes.
Jon Eckert:
Okay. Okay. What are you most excited about in education right now?
Dr. Tami Dean:
I think I'm most excited about... Just there's always opportunity. There's always opportunity for change, for growth. I am excited about what I'm seeing, coming out of teenagers and how they think and are engaging just with the world and using their voice.
Jon Eckert:
Well, on that note, and I'm not supposed to add tangents, but I have to because I was just listening to Meg Jay talk 'Who Wrote the Defining Decades'. She writes about people in their twenties, and so right now, Gen Z. It was Millennials, Gen Z gets bashed for being Gen Z. She said, "It's not about the group that they're associated with. It's about that time period in life. In our 20s, we are much more egocentric, because nothing is certain for us. Everything's in flux. Even though your 20s are great, there's a low point on this happiness curve where the J-curve goes down. It starts going down in middle school and high school and doesn't start going back up until the end of your 20s where you start to have some certainty."
I think that's a really helpful reminder that we need to give people grace and know that, "Hey, life is not easy, and it's not about being entitled or these other things. It's just being in your 20s is hard. Being in middle school is hard." I was always amazed at how kids showed up for me in middle school, because I remember middle school as a kid, and I hated it. For eight years, I avoided teaching it My last four of what I call real teaching were in middle school, and they were amazing, and we need to give them credit. So, I too am excited about where things are headed with some of the ways kids are thinking about things now.
Dr. Tami Dean:
Yeah, that was actually my first teaching job, was in middle school, and I didn't want it at all, but it turned out to be amazing. So, teach middle school, y'all.
Jon Eckert:
That's it. That's it. That's it. So, other than that, what's the best advice you would either... You have two options here, the best advice you would give to our listeners or the best advice you've ever received? Or maybe it's one and the same?
Dr. Tami Dean:
Well, I think the best advice I would give is to show up as your authentic self, because there is only one you in the world, and the perspective and experience you bring is valuable. So, when you show up and bring that, great things happen.
Jon Eckert:
Such a good reminder. I would add only to that, don't try to be cool. You will fail miserably with your middle school kids. They will see right through it. But they do appreciate the authentic quirky weirdness. I was like, "Find your quirky." What's quirky about you? Because they be quirky, too. By you making sure that's okay, then they too can bring that. Life gets a lot more interesting that way.
Dr. Tami Dean:
Oh, definitely. I've embraced my nerdiness for sure.
Jon Eckert:
Love it. Well, that's why I appreciate talking to people like you. So, thank you so much for your time, Tami. We appreciate all you do.
Dr. Tami Dean:
Thank you for having me.
More Episodes
All Episodes>>Get this podcast on your phone, Free
