FBF 02 | Flash Back Friday | From Hustle to Holdings: The Smarter Path to Passive Wealth With J. Scott

Title: From Hustle to Holdings: The Smarter Path to Passive Wealth With J. Scott

Summary:

In this episode of the Passive Income Attorney Podcast, host Seth Bradley discusses the importance of transitioning from active to passive income with guest Jay Scott, a seasoned real estate investor. They explore various investment strategies, the significance of due diligence in syndication, and the differences between house flipping and multifamily investments. Jay shares his journey from tech to real estate, emphasizing the need for teamwork in multifamily projects and the importance of understanding market conditions. The conversation concludes with actionable insights for listeners looking to create financial freedom through passive income.

Links to watch and subscribe:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V26Rze2S9TM

Bullet Point Highlights:

• Active income is trading time for money, while passive income allows for financial freedom.
• Investors should focus on the highest and best use of their time.
• Flipping houses can be tedious and may not be the best use of time for high-income earners.
• Transitioning to multifamily investments can provide more control and cash flow.
• Market conditions can significantly impact investment strategies and outcomes.
• Due diligence is crucial when vetting syndication sponsors and deals.
• Understanding the underwriting process is essential for passive investors.
• Building a strong team is vital for success in multifamily investments.
• Investors should seek to understand the risks associated with their investments.
• Passive income allows for a lifestyle centered around family and personal interests.

Transcript:

Seth Bradley (00:10.188)

What's going on, law nation? Welcome to the Passive Income Attorney Podcast, your favorite place for learning about the world of alternative passive investments so that you can practice when you want to and not because you have to. Now, if you're ready to kick that billable out of the curb, start by going to attorneybydesign.com to download the Freedom Blueprint, which will also get you access to partner with us on one of our next passive real estate investments. All right, let's talk about

 

the highest and best use of your time. We've talked about active versus passive income and for good reason, they are completely different. They're on opposite sides of the spectrum. When we talk about active income, we're talking about your job as an attorney, as a doctor or a business owner, where you trade your time in for money out. Depending on your skill set, background, education, work ethic, et cetera,

 

You know, this could be a great use of your time or it could be a terrible one. But when most people think about getting into real estate investing, they're torn. Should you do a fix and flip like you saw on HGTV? Should you invest in a REIT like your financial advisor and Charles Schwab told you to do? Should you buy a single family rental or invest in a syndication? There are endless options so I can understand why it's so confusing. Well, start with this.

 

ask yourself, what's the highest and best use of my time? If you're thinking about doing an HGTV fix and flip and your partner at a big law firm, for example, is that flip really the best use of your time? And don't be mistaken, a flip is transactional and it is active. So will you make more per hour on that fix and flip than you would at your job?

 

After you factor in the learning curve, the deal sourcing, the headaches, what it takes away from your job and everything else, it's not even close. Unless you truly love doing it, which some people do, it just doesn't make sense for high income earners. You should be focusing on transforming the income you earn actively into passive income streams. At different levels on the passive scale, that could very well be a single family rental or an Airbnb.

 

Seth Bradley (02:34.26)

or could be passive investments into commercial syndications. But if you truly want to obtain financial freedom as quickly as possible, don't create more time consuming activities that aren't as fruitful as the active income stream that you already have. Focus on passive investments until you are financially free. And then you will have the freedom to transition or not into any

 

active activity you have a passion for. Today, we have a very special guest, Mr. Jay Scott of Bigger Pocket fame. Jay is an entrepreneur, investor, advisor, and the co-host of the Bigger Pockets Business Podcast. He has bought, built, rehab, sold, syndicated, and held over $70 million in residential property, and currently owns several hundred units. Jay is the author of four bestselling books on real estate investing,

 

with sales of over 300,000 copies. Get really excited for this, folks. You're in for a treat.

 

This is the Passive Income Attorney Podcast, where you'll discover the secrets and strategies of the ultra wealthy on how they build streams of passive income to give them the freedom we all want. Attorney Seth Bradley will help you end the cycle of trading your time for money so you can make money while you sleep. Start living the good life on your own terms. Now, here's your host, Seth Bradley.

 

Jay Scott, what's going on, brother? Welcome to the show.

 

9. Scott (04:09.196)

Thanks. Appreciate you having me here Seth.

 

Absolutely, man. Appreciate you taking the time out of your day, We've got a little bit of history, but let's jump into your history, man. What's your story? Tell us about your background. Take it back as far you'd like to.

 

Yeah, I'll keep it short because nobody really cares about what I used to do. So I'm a tech guy by education and former trade. I worked in Silicon Valley for a long time, spent about 15 years doing the engineering thing and the product management thing. 2008 decided to get married. My wife and I, she was in the tech world also. We decided to leave and do something different so we could start a family.

 

focus on our family. Basically, we were both working ridiculous hours and it just wasn't sustainable if we wanted to start a family. So put our jobs in 2008, moved to the East coast, ended up flipping houses. Long, boring story about how that started, just kind of serendipitous. We didn't really plan it, never really considered real estate, but fell into flipping houses. Over the next eight years or so, we flipped about 400, 450 houses, was great. It ended up being the,

 

next career we were looking for, it gave us the flexibility to kind of raise our kids and never have to miss a soccer game or a piano recital, which was fantastic. But then around 2017-ish really got burned out on flipping houses and that's when I started to look for some new stuff to do. and that kind of leads me into what I've been doing the last few years.

 

Seth Bradley (05:41.742)

That's awesome, man. That's a ton of houses you flip, man. think that that's, know, a lot of the folks who've been in the game for a long time, they've heard you speak on, you know, on bigger pockets and all of that. So, you know, what attracted you originally to house flipping rather than, you know, buy it holds or anything like that?

 

So I'll be honest, I don't love real estate. I love business. I'm a business guy. like when I was even when I was in the tech world, I got my MBA and I did some business development and I moved from the engineering side to the product side where I could be more involved in the business stuff. And I'm a business guy by heart. And that's what I love doing. So when it came to flipping houses,

 

For me, was, I could have been buying and selling anything. It ended up being houses. And again, not an exciting story. mean, literally the story was my wife was watching a show on HGTV with some people flipping houses and she said, let's give that a try. Just as kind of like a fun thing to do on the side while we were waiting for our wedding to come up. So it wasn't something that I ever thought about or planned to do. It just kind of happened.

 

And so if it weren't flipping houses, it would have been buying and selling something else. would have opened a restaurant or I would have opened a retail store or who knows what I would have done. But for me, the challenge was in the business. It wasn't the real estate piece of it. And so I've always enjoyed the scaling part. So yeah, flipping a house is great. Flipping five houses is great. But I always wanted to know, how do I go from flipping five houses to flipping 50 houses in a year? What are the systems and processes I have to put in place?

 

how do I build that type of business? That to me is what's exciting. And so for me, it's always been about not the real estate part of it, but about the building the business part of it.

 

Seth Bradley (07:25.248)

I love that man. I don't think I've heard anyone just come out and say that, even though a lot of people are probably in the same boat as you that, you know, you don't have to love real estate to recognize that it's a great business. Right. Yeah. So that that's awesome. So tell me a little bit about your, your transition and what you're doing now, your current business, how you kind of progressed from house living to what you're about to tell us about.

 

Yeah, so 2017, I just got really burned out on flipping houses. It was good to us financially. We got good at it. I wrote a bunch of books on it, but I'll be honest, it was never fun. And as the years went on, it just ended up getting more tedious. I felt like I wasn't learning anything new. It was revising processes and creating new systems. it was fun, but I needed some new challenges.

 

So 2017, I decided, okay, done with flipping, actually went and started doing some business stuff. So I do some advisory work for some tech companies. I do some angel investing. And so for a few months, I actually considered getting out of real estate altogether, focusing on other business pursuits. But I actually, what I realized was that I didn't like the nuts and bolts of real estate. I liked the mechanics of real estate.

 

I loved the negotiation piece. I loved the asset management piece. I loved the putting deals together piece and I was good at it. And so while I really didn't wanna be flipping houses, didn't want to be involved in the day-to-day aspects of managing the projects. I enjoyed the deal part of real estate. And so in addition to that, after I stopped flipping, I had all this cash.

 

And I was like, okay, what am I going to do with this cash? I was using it to flip houses. We were doing 50 houses a year. It's put a lot of cash to work. Now I had all this cash. I'm a control freak. do invest in other people's syndications, but I don't sleep well at night when all my money is being managed by other people. So I said, how do I kind of take back control of my own cash as well as kind of get back into real estate? What can I do in real estate that I would enjoy? And now I can also deploy a bunch of my own cash. And what I realized was multifamily.

 

38. Scott (09:38.648)

That was a great opportunity. And I had been thinking about multifamily for a long time. But what I realized was from the syndication side of multifamily, could, one, I could have the control. could be a general partner. could control the deal. I could put the deal together. I could manage the deal. But also I could come in on the limited partner side as an investor. And it was a great place to deploy my capital. So I could deploy my capital in deals that I had full control over. So 2017, I decided I wanted to get into multifamily, probably wanted to get into syndication.

 

I reached out to a friend of mine, Ashley Wilson, who managed a company called Barred Down Investments. She and her husband had started the company a couple of years earlier. They were doing exactly what I wanted to do. And so I reached out to Ashley and I said, hey, I would love to learn multifamily. I don't expect you to like just take all this time and teach me so I can often be your competitor. But here's what I am willing to do if you're willing to do this. I will come work for you for a year.

 

And in that year, you've got all my time, you've got all my energy, you've got all my knowledge, you've got all my contacts, I'll put money into your deals, whatever it takes. You mentor me for a year, you've got my commitment for a year. After a year, we can figure out if like, there's a place for me on the team or if I'll go off and do my own thing. But basically, let's work together for a year. And she loved that idea. mean, I think she liked the fact that I was really good with the systems and the processes and the operation stuff.

 

And I obviously loved the fact that I could jump into a team that was high functioning, already owned a lot of properties and was doing deals. So for the next year, I worked with her team. It took about a year and a half before we finally did a deal. But 2020, just before COVID, we started putting together a deal. That deal went really well. Ashley and I realized that we were like, just we made a great team.

 

We had a bunch of complimentary skills, the things that she was really good at, I wasn't, the things I was really good at, she wasn't, it was just a good partnership. Around the same time, her husband decided that he didn't really want to be doing real estate anymore. He kind of wanted to be a stay at home dad. He liked helping with the business. He ran the underwriting team and he did a lot of the analytics, but he didn't want to be a partner in the business anymore. So about a year and a half ago, Ashley came to me and said, Hey, would you want to join me and be a partner in the business?

 

57. Scott (11:57.678)

2020, 2021-ish. Ashley and I joined forces. She and I now run bar down investments and we do value add multifamily all around the country.

 

That's great man, said you weren't having fun anymore, you having fun now?

 

I'm having a ton of fun. And I think the big difference between then and now is when you're flipping houses, flipping houses is a very, it's a solitary venture. Yeah, you have contractors around you and you have eight real estate agents and you have closing agents and lots of 1099 people, lots of vendors and people that come in to help you. But at the end of the day, you're running the show. You're doing the four big things that you do when you flip houses.

 

you're acquisitions or you're running acquisitions, you're doing the rehab or you're running the rehab, you're doing the disposition or managing the disposition and you're raising the money. mean, all four of those things, you don't generally have a big team to do those things because it's just hard to scale a big team when you're flipping houses. The profits aren't there, the margins aren't there. Unless you're doing real high-end houses, the deal size isn't there. But in multifamily, the thing I love about multifamily is it really is a team sport. When you're doing it,

 

$10 million deal or a $50 million deal, it's not something that I could ever do myself. It's not something anybody or very few people can do themselves. Typically you have to be part of a team because things are very specialized. mean, the acquisitions piece, you need some of the best acquisitions people in the world to be finding deals in this market. The renovation piece to be renovating a 200 or 400 or 600 unit apartment complex, it's not like flipping a house. You need to have really good systems and processes. need to...

 

36. Scott (13:36.448)

really know the renovation side of things. Managing the property, I mean, you have to know the asset management side. You have to know how to carry out a business plan. You have to know how to increase and reposition rents. You have to know how to decrease expenses and improve the efficiency of the management. And then on the sales side, that's a whole other world where you have to really know the market and be able to work with the brokers and know how to position the company for sale. And then finally, there's that raising funds piece.

 

And that's a whole world by itself, whether you're dealing with raising debt through a broker and you're going like just typical, like getting loans, or you're going out to private investors or institutions and you're raising equity, people that come in as partners. And I mean, that's a full-time job in itself, those two things. So when you do multifamily, you really need to figure out what are you great at? And then you need to surround yourself with people who are great at everything else. And so that's what I loved about multifamily. It allowed me to focus on what I was really

 

and then bring in people who are literally the best in the world at all the other stuff. And now it becomes a team sport. It goes from playing tennis to playing basketball. It goes from being yourself reliant and you have to do everything and be the best versus you have to be able to put together the best team and manage that team in a way that not only is everybody fantastic, but working together, they're better than the sum of their parts.

 

Yeah, yeah, that's fantastic, man. The whole team game part of multifamily and commercial real estate. It's really interesting because when you get into other businesses, it feels more competitive and kind of like if you if you have the secret sauce, you keep it close to your vest. You don't you don't tell everybody about it. Whereas when you're in this commercial real estate world, everybody's sharing ideas. Everybody's trying to partner. Everybody's trying to see how they can help you rather than just looking about, well, how can you help me kind of?

 

I call it, I'm gonna get in trouble here, but the Hollywood mentality where it's like, what can you do for me? Oh, you just drive a three series, you probably can't help me. So it's a different attitude.

 

41. Scott (15:41.294)

Absolutely. I like to refer to it as co-op petition. It's like there are deals that you're going to do with other people and then there deals you're going to do yourself and you may come back to those people later. You may never come back to them, but everybody kind of looks out for each other because you never know when you may end up in a deal with somebody that previously you were competing against. And so anytime that you're not in a deal with somebody, you're still treating them as if, the next deal we could end up being partners. And the deal after that, we could end up being partners.

 

because it really is, it's a small industry, everybody knows each other. we really, again, going back to the sum of the parts is greater than the parts themselves. mean, working together, we can really do a whole lot more than if we just are purely competitive and try and take each other down.

 

Yeah, absolutely. And I think kind of going back, there's a lesson to be learned about how you were transitioning from house flipping and you were the best at it. And then you're like, okay, I want to go into multifamily and a syndication. You went and you sought out someone that was already in the game that knew what they were doing, that had the experience. And you said, what can I do to help you? What value can I bring to you to help you so you can teach me what you've done? And there's a lot of value to be found in that lesson for folks that are trying to

 

you know, get into the active side. A lot of listeners out there are passive investors already and they're, you know, maybe thinking about, maybe I want to do in the active side. And they're like, well, what can I do? Cause a lot of attorneys, especially in doctors and folks like that, they think they have this one track mind. They're only trained to do one thing. And they're like, what value can I provide as somebody else? But there are a lot of skills that you've learned in your W2 profession that you can apply to help other folks that are already in the industry.

 

Absolutely. I mean, I talk about it a lot, but even outside of real estate, I do a lot of advisory work and I'm still pretty active in the tech world. And I find companies that kind of bridge that gap between technology and real estate. all know about the Zillows and the Airbnb type companies. There are a lot of startup companies in that space too called property technology type companies. so...

 

46. Scott (17:46.998)

I love to use my experience, my knowledge, my relationships to go into those companies and help them grow their companies. In return, I'm not an employee. I'm not even a 1099 contractor. In return, I'm getting equity so that if I can help make them successful, ultimately my equity is gonna be worth something. I'm gonna be successful as well. And so what I like to tell everybody like figure out what you're good at and then figure out who needs that expertise.

 

and then figure out how you can offer that expertise in a way that isn't trading necessarily hours for dollars. Figure out how you can trade your expertise, your knowledge, your Rolodex, your whatever it is for equity or potentially passive income so that you can grow potentially many fold as opposed to I charge $200 an hour or $300 an hour. mean, everybody loves $300 an hour, but the minute you stop working, you stop making that money. But if you can get equity, that equity can work for you for a while.

 

Yeah, absolutely. And it's tough for a lot of the WTs out there listening, they're highly paid professionals. It's tough to get off of that treadmill. For some folks it's easier because they're not making as much money, but for the lawyers, the doctors out there that are making a good amount of money in their profession, it's tough to try to see, you know, to stop trading time for money. But you've got to kind of see through the weeds there.

 

Yeah, well, what I tell people is, there's two types of income. There's your active income. That's the stuff that you're trading your time for, whether you're a doctor or a lawyer or an engineer or you're a house flipper or you're a consultant or you're a small business owner, whatever it is, that thing that when you stop working, you stop making money. And then there's a passive income. It's the thing you trade money for money. So you put your money out there and hopefully it continues to come back to you for the rest of your life or at least the next several years.

 

And so what I like to tell people is don't think about those the same. Those are completely different. figure out for your active income, figure out what the highest and best use of your time is. If you're gonna make more money as an attorney than you are flipping houses, don't flip houses just because you eventually want to retire on real estate. You can always use real estate for the passive side of things, but if you're gonna make more dollars per hour as an attorney or a doctor or a consultant, then do that because you wanna get out of that active income as quickly as possible.

 

5. Scott (20:05.9)

And the way you do that is you make as much as you can and you move it over to the passive side. So focus on whatever it is that's generating the most dollars per hour for a shorter period of time so that you can then start moving that money over to the passive side and start building up the passive side. don't, people ask me all the time, should I flip houses or should I buy rentals? And I'm constantly telling them that's not the right question. Flipping houses is your active income. Compare that to all the other.

 

potential active incomes you can have. And rentals is passive income. Compare that to all the other passive investments you can make. And so don't say flipping houses or rentals say, should I be flipping houses or should I be an attorney? And don't say, I be flipping houses or rentals say, should I be doing rentals or should I be investing in syndications or dividend generating stocks or something else? And think of them very differently. then secondly,

 

Make sure as much of that active income as you can, move it over the passive side so that you can start that snowball rolling. I compound interest is the key to financial freedom. And the sooner you can put more money to work, the faster it'll compound and the sooner you can start to live on.

 

Yeah, I love that man. mean, lot of folks, you know, calls that I take, they're like, hey, they're attorneys. Should I quit my job or how do I quit my job? I'm like, if you want to quit your job, don't be hasty about it. First of all, you're probably making a good amount of money in your active income. You just need to figure out a way to transition that active to passive income and don't just quit your job. It's very difficult to flip houses, to do an HGTV fix and flip while you're working at a big law firm or something like that full time.

 

I tried to do it, I didn't do it very well. You're not even gonna make it nearly as much money as you would as a doctor, as an attorney, unless you get to level like you did, Jay, but that takes time and that takes a buildup of accumulation of skills and money to be able to get to that level.

 

5. Scott (22:05.826)

Yeah, I mean, at the end of the day, it's a math equation. mean, your passive income or your ability to build up enough income to be able to retire, whatever your number is, is based on how much can you put in per month into that wheel, that passive income growth machine? How much are you generating every year on what you're putting in? So what do your returns look like? And three, how long do you have to compound it?

 

And so everybody can go out into a compound interest calculator and say, okay, I have $5,000 a month that I can invest passively and I can return 12 % per year and I need $6 million to retire. Well, based on those three numbers, you can now figure out that fourth variable, is how long is it going to take? And so figure out how much do you have per month to put in? What's the rate of return you can generate and how much do you need? And that'll tell you how long it's going to take or

 

figure out how much you have to put in, how much your return is gonna be and how long you wanna spend. And that'll tell you how much you'll end up with at the end, either way you wanna look at it. But again, it's a pretty simple math equation, but too many people don't actually do that equation where they don't think about it until too late and they think, I wish I would have taken that $5,000 a month that I was spending on my second home in the Bahamas and put that into real estate so that I could have been.

 

compounding it and so now I could buy that home for cash five years or 10 years later.

 

Absolutely. Attorneys hate math, but I think they can handle that little equation. I want to take a step back for a minute because you got into house flipping in 2008, which is kind of like around the big crash. And now we're kind of at the height of a market. We don't know where that height is going to end, but we're definitely in it. Right. So can you maybe compare and contrast getting into, let's say,

 

Seth Bradley (24:01.652)

one real estate venture in the middle of a crash compared to getting into another venture kind of towards, towards the upswing.

 

Yeah, so it's one of the reasons I like multifamily and I like commercial and I like syndication. Anytime you're doing purely transactional deals, buying something and then selling it, not generating any cashflow in between, you run a risk. If the market turns in the middle of the transaction, you're gonna lose money and you don't have a lot of ways to mitigate that risk.

 

Whereas if you're buying something like an apartment complex, or even if you're buying a rental property, or you're buying a self-storage complex, or you're buying anything that cash flows, the nice thing is if the market turns, you may not be in a great position. You may not be thrilled with what's happening with the value of your assets, but if you're still generating cash flow, you can weather that storm. Maybe it's gonna take, the average recession lasts about 18 months. And so if you can make enough income that you can keep yourself afloat for 18 months, or maybe

 

it's a horrible recession and it lasts three or four years. If you're still making income and you can keep yourself afloat for three or four years, the market's gonna come back. And so when we do our multifamily deals, yeah, we typically say we're planning to hold three to five years, but we also do all the underwriting to ensure that if we have to hold for six years or eight years or even nine or 10 years, that the numbers still work because.

 

Again, who knows what's gonna happen three years down the road, we could have a major recession that lasts four years and now we're seven years down the road. I wanna know that my multifamily investments in seven years, they're probably gonna be producing more cashflow. We're probably gonna see more growth in terms of population. We're probably gonna see more growth in terms of employment. Hopefully we're gonna see more wage growth once we come out of that recession. So all the economic indicators that kind of lead towards value growth in multifamily,

 

58. Scott (25:58.486)

are going to happen over those seven years if I can just get my property seven years and not lose it. With a flip, well, I'm not generating any income. So if the bank calls the loan due or if my two-year loan comes due and I can't refinance, I'm screwed. But in a multifamily, I just waited an extra couple of years and I'm probably in a better position than I was anyway. So that's one of the reasons I love multifamily because we can't predict

 

what the economy is gonna do in the next couple of years. But I do know that whatever the economy does, it's probably gonna come back in the next five or 10, and I'm still gonna have the problem.

 

Yeah, yeah, that's great. That kind of rolls into this next question. How does a passive investor that's kind of vetting a sponsor, how do they check kind of the boxes to see if their sponsors are taking the extra measures to look into those risks that you just mentioned, to mitigating those risks, to taking those risks into account in their underwriting and things like that. How can they best vet the sponsor to make sure that they're thinking of those things?

 

So I invest in a lot of other people's syndications as well as my own. And so when I do that, I kind of look at five areas for due diligence anytime I invest in a syndication. Number one is the team. And that's probably the most important thing. For a lot of people, I have been pleasantly surprised that a lot of our investors have recognized that team is the most important aspect of the deal. I know in the flipping world, everybody was concerned about the deal. Nobody cared about

 

what was my experience, but in the multifamily world, a lot of investors recognize that the team has to be great. So number one is the team. Number two is location. Location is often overlooked, but at the end of the day, the thing that's gonna drive value for multifamily and for commercial real estate in general is gonna be population growth. So you want more people coming into an area, employment growth. So you want more employers coming into an area that will bring more people in. You want wage growth because that will ultimately drive rents up.

 

6. Scott (28:06.082)

and you want employment diversity. You wanna know that if one industry takes a big hit, so for example, we invest in Houston, but we won't invest in the energy corridor of Houston because it's so reliant on oil and gas, that if the oil and gas industry took a big hit, the real estate around there would probably take a big hit. So we wanna see that there's good employment diversity. But at the end of the day, location is that next big thing. So team, location, number three is the deal itself.

 

So you need to know that the deal is gonna stand on its own. I wanna know that if I took a deal and I handed it to pretty much any other indicator, they couldn't mess it up too badly. Obviously, again, we're gonna go back to the team is super important, but I want the deal also to stand on its own. And I wanna know that the business plan for the deal, the hold period, the numbers and the underwriting, the pro forma for the property makes sense. So team location deal.

 

Number four is the returns. So obviously when I invest with somebody, I'm in it for the money. And so I wanna see that the returns are commensurate with the risk. I wanna know that the returns, if somebody tells me I'm gonna get 10 % returns in this deal versus 20 % returns in another deal, I wanna know, well, why am gonna settle for lower returns? I want the answer to be because it's a lot lower risk or because you're gonna get your money back a lot sooner, which is gonna allow you to compound it or whatever the answer is.

 

I want to know that the returns make sense given everything else. And then finally is the risks. At the end of the day, I'm always going to sit down with the syndicator and I'm going to say, what are you most concerned about here? Like where, if I'm going to lose money on this deal, where am I most likely going to lose money? They say, there's no shot of losing money. walk away because we all know every deal has risks and every syndicator knows what those risks are. And they're thinking about those risks. I just want them to tell me.

 

So if I'm gonna lose money on this deal, where am I most likely? Why am I most likely to lose money if I'm going to lose money? So those are the five things that I look for. Talking about each individually a little bit more. the team, I like to know that one, I wanna see how many deals the team has done together because again, like a basketball team, you can put the best basketball players in the world together. And if they've never played on the court together,

 

31. Scott (30:31.672)

they're not gonna be necessarily the best team out there. You can find another team with five inferior players who have been playing together for 20 years and they're probably gonna be better because they know each other better. So I like to see teams that have worked together for a while. I like to see teams that have gone full cycle in deals. So it's easy to buy 10,000 units. It's hard to buy 10,000 units and also sell 10,000 units for a profit. So I wanna see that if a team has bought a lot of deals, they've at least sold some for a profit.

 

I wanna see a team that's putting their own money in the deals. So I want people that have skin in the game. If they don't have skin in the game, and I've seen plenty of syndicators that don't like to put money in the deals, well, they need to sweeten the pot for me somehow. So maybe they're saying, we're not gonna take any profits until at least year three, or we're gonna give you a better preferred return, a better split than you would get if we were putting money in the deal. I wanna know if you're not putting money in.

 

that you're at least giving me something that aligns our interests and ensures that you're gonna be working hard even though you might not have as much financial risk. So those are the types of things I like to see in the team. I like to see things like at least one or two people working full-time. If everybody's part-time, that's kind of a little bit scary. Obviously not everybody has to be full-time because there are a lot of jobs on a GP team that aren't full-time jobs. There are a lot of jobs that might stop the day you purchase the property. Like the person that's raising money, job's

 

pretty much done other than communicating status when the property's been purchased. But I do want to know that whoever's managing the asset is doing it full time. So that's kind of the team stuff. Location, again, population growth, employment growth, wage growth, and employment diversity. So those are the four big things I look for. Next is the business plan. So I want to see the biggest question when somebody goes in and...

 

does what I do, which is a value add multifamily. Basically they buy it, they raise the value of the property and then they sell it for a big profit. Where is that profit coming from? Generally the profits coming from raising the rents. There's also some lowering the expenses, but at the end of the day, raising the rents is kind of the big thing that's gonna generate the big profits in multifamily. And so I wanna know how are you raising the rents? And two, when you tell me that you're raising the rents from X to Y, where is Y coming from?

 

55. Scott (32:55.182)

Show me the comps that tell me that why is a reasonable new rent, market rent for this property after you've done the renovation. So I wanna see the comps. So that's kind of the deal. The returns speaks for themselves. I wanna see like the structure of the deal. So when's the money coming back to me? Is it paid monthly? Is it paid quarterly? What are the returns look like? What's the preferred return? So is it a low preferred return, which means

 

that the syndicators are getting paid sooner, whereas at a higher preferred return, which means the syndicators have to do more for me before they take anything home. So that speaks for themselves. And then for the risks, I wanna know both the catastrophic risks. So what's the thing that's like going to make me lose all my money? Is there something out there that can cause me to lose all my money? Hopefully the answer is no, but there are probably some risks that are bigger than others. So we do a lot of deals in Houston. If somebody were to say to me, what's the biggest risk on your deals?

 

The answer is generally going to be weather. If we have a really bad hurricane, if we're in a flood zone, we probably have flood insurance and we have hurricane insurance. But if it's in a place that's never experienced the negative impacts of a flood or a hurricane, and we are not required to have flood insurance, but there's still a massive hurricane that wipes out that property, that's not going to be good. We're going to have to pay for that ourselves. So what's our mitigation there? We don't have a great one. Luckily.

 

the risk is really low. We don't buy in areas where there is that risk. And if there is, we're gonna get flood insurance. But I do want my investors to know that no matter where you invest, whether it's a risk and especially in Houston, if we see a storm bigger than anything we've seen the last 50 years, some of our properties could be at risk. And then there are the smaller risks. So maybe there's five other complexes being renovated all around us. Maybe there's class A, brand new class A being developed.

 

all around us. So basically our absorption of units is going to slow down because there's so many more units. Maybe there's one big employer in the area. Amazon just built a warehouse that's employing 8,000 people. Well, what happens if Amazon has a bad year and has to lay off 4,000 of those people? How's that going to affect us? So, so risks is the next thing. And the way I approach it is I literally sit down with the, with the syndicator and say,

 

15. Scott (35:15.554)

What keeps you up at night? What are the biggest things you're concerned about? And so those are the things that I do. I have no problem basically saying to a syndicator, I need 15 or 30 minutes of your time to ask these questions. Typically the good ones will either find the times themselves or have somebody on their team that will sit down and answer these questions. If they're not willing to answer those questions, well, that's probably a good indication that that's not a good team.

 

Yeah. For our listeners out there, that breakdown was incredible. Rewind that, listen to those five items again. That's a quick, but thorough and awesome rundown of what you need to do. Just as at least the starting points for your due diligence. And that's, that's great that you said if they won't book a call with you either themselves or an investor relations person on their team, then it's time to, you can just walk away and look at the next, look at the next deal. One question I had on the deal.

 

So a lot of folks, it's kind of overwhelming to see an underwriting model or something like that. And being a passive investor, I don't know how much you even want to dive into it. Some people do, some people want to nerd out on it. Most people don't. And we don't generally have access to the T12 or the rent roll or anything like that. What are maybe some quick tips on how to maybe proof through that pro forma to make sure that the assumptions are reasonable and the pro forma is generally

 

a reasonable prediction of what we might expect from that investment.

 

Well, let me start, me take a step back before I answer that particular question and just say that even for you and me, mean, you know how to do an underwriting, I know how to do an underwriting. If you or I were gonna invest in somebody's deal, Joe Smith's deal, we're probably not gonna have enough information even though we know this business really well and we know the underwriting models really well, we're probably not gonna have enough information.

 

8. Scott (37:08.908)

that we're going to be able to know for certain that Joe Smith's not trying to scam us out of money. So if Joe Smith is really smart and he could probably put together an underwriting that could fool us because we're just not gonna be putting in as many dozens of hours underwriting as he and his team are. So the number one thing I would say is make sure you trust your syndicate. This goes back to why team is so important.

 

because there's two types of things that Joe Smith can do. One, he could do a bad job of underwriting and come up with bad numbers. That's not good, but that's not nearly as bad as Joe Smith wanting to scam us out of money. So number one is make sure Joe Smith's not the kind of guy who wants to scam us out of money. And so work with people who are reputable. And that's why I would invest with you before I would invest with 95 % of syndicators out there because you're an attorney, you passed the bar.

 

you know that if you go and somebody finds out that you're trying to scam somebody, well, you're putting your entire career at risk. And so what I tell people is, so what do you have that really proves that this person is on the up and up? And maybe it's a track record. Maybe it's 10 or 15 years of doing deals. Maybe it's, I like to think with me, I've been doing this business for 15 years. I've done thousands of deals with hundreds or thousands of people.

 

And if you go out on the internet, nobody's gonna, you're not gonna find anything that's written negatively about me. So that's a good sign. But make sure that there's something out there that gives you faith in that syndicator, even if it's just somebody else that's invested in a couple of deals with them. So that's number one. So that's the way to rule out that catastrophic, they're trying to scam you risk. Then there's the more likely, what if they just didn't do a good job of underwriting risk?

 

And so for that, would say for people that have very little knowledge of how the underwriting works and how the numbers work, it can be really difficult. And so what I like to do is, or what I recommend people do is sit down and ask to do a Zoom call for 15 minutes with the investor relations person and say, hey, will you kind of walk me through the high level underwriting? And at least force them to go through and then just ask questions.

 

30. Scott (39:30.958)

when they say something, even if you have no idea what you're talking about and they say, well, it looks like we're gonna be able to reduce expenses by implementing a rub system, blah, blah, blah. Oh, okay, well, what is rubs and how does that work? And at least make them explain it to you. At least then you'll get an idea that they're not making it up as they're going along, or at least you'll get that confidence that it sounds like they know what they're talking about. But the biggest thing that I would say is that whole comps thing.

 

And this is a question that a lot of people don't like to ask. But I actually, and when people ask me this question, it always makes me nervous because it's the hardest part of the business, but it impresses me when people do. to the underwriting or the investor relations person, what are the comps that you used for your post renovation market rents? So again, the thing that drives values in multifamily is after the renovation is completed, in theory, you should be able to bring your rents up higher.

 

and your rents, those higher rents, you should be able to figure out what they are by looking at other units that have already been renovated and seeing what their rents are. So if I buy one, two, three Main Street, and I know I'm going to put $8 million into it, well, now that property is going to comp out to 678 Main Street. And well, what are the rents at 678 Main Street? And so by asking, hey, so you're buying one, two, three Main Street, what are the comps for the rents after you renovate?

 

and they tell you, it's going to be 678 Main Street and 123 Smith Street, whatever it is, you can then go look up those properties and say, okay, well, it looks like a two bedroom at those properties is renting for 1200. Now I go back to the investor relations person or whatever information they gave me I see, oh, okay, after renovation, they have their rents at 1200. Makes sense. If that's a reasonable comp, they now have the rents at kind of where they should be.

 

If he says that six, seven, eight main streets, a comp, and you go look in a two bedroom at six, seven, eight main streets, 1200, but their underwriting tells you that after they do the renovation, they're going to be charging 1500. Well, why are you now $300 above this property that you said was a comp? And so that to me is kind of the first thing that I look at or the biggest thing I look at is what are the comps that they're using and does just a kind of first pass.

 

57. Scott (41:57.762)

jumping on apartments.com or calling the complex and asking them what different things rent for. Does that coincide with what they're telling you their post renovation rents are gonna

 

Yeah, I love that man. I mean, it's not as simple as just going into an old dilapidated apartment building and saying, I'm to put granite countertops and hardwood flooring and stainless steel appliances in there. And then I'm going to triple the rent or double the rent. It's not that easy. If it's not in the right area that could support those, those market rents or that have potential tenants that want those types of things, it doesn't work. So that's why that's so important to check those comps to see what's around those apartments that you're going to be investing in to see if, they can achieve those.

 

those proforma rents. All right, man, before we jump into the freedom four, what's one last gold nugget for our listeners?

 

Absolutely.

 

45. Scott (42:45.634)

Yeah, so again, what I would tell people is figure out your highest and best use on your active side. And then for the passive side, figure out how you're gonna scale. And I know a lot of people like to invest in a whole lot of different things, but I'm a big fan of doing some work so that you don't have to diversify as much. Diversification is great, but diversification,

 

is for people who aren't really an expert in anything. If you want to get your best returns, the way to get your highest level of returns is not to have to diversify. And the best way not to have to diversify is to get knowledgeable about whatever you're investing in. So if you decide you wanna invest in all your syndications, just cause that's what you and I do. So it's an easy example. If you want to invest in syndications and that's how you wanna grow your nest egg, my recommendation is,

 

get as much information about syndications as you can. Pick up a good book on syndications. Go find somebody that does syndications and say, hey, I'd to pay you a thousand bucks for five hours of your time. Or you just to walk me through what a typical deal looks like or what the underwriting looks like. Or go sit in on a hundred multifamily syndication investor videos, presentations. So you can see all the different things they're talking about and become as much of an expert there as you can. So that way you're reducing your risk without having to do a lot of the.

 

diversification. So focus on whatever your highest and best use of time is on your active income and then become as knowledgeable as you can for whatever you're investing in passively. What I like to say on the passive side is it's not truly passive. Nothing's truly passive. But the best investments are the one where all the work is done upfront. You do your due diligence and then it becomes passive.

 

Yeah, that's awesome, man. And then what you can do though is diversify within that strategy, right? Absolutely. Yeah, different asset types can have different business strategy, value add, or maybe you're dealing with just a class A where you're chasing yield or across different cities, different geographies, or across different sponsorship teams. There's other ways to diversify within that same type of investment strategy. Yep. All right, man, let's jump into the Freedom 4.

 

5. Scott (45:05.598)

It's time for the Freedom Four.

 

What's the best thing you do to keep your mind and body healthy?

 

So for me, it's admitting when I need a break. I know so many people that it's a badge of honor to work 80 hours a week, 52 weeks a year, never take a vacation. I'm just the opposite. If I wake up one morning and I'm tired and I don't feel like working and I don't feel like I'm gonna be productive, I will grab a book. I might even turn on the TV. I might say to my wife, hey, let's go to breakfast or let's go spend the day, let's go to a movie.

 

And I have no qualms with just saying, I need a break today. Today's not gonna be a productive day. I don't need to pretend to work just so I can have that badge of honor that I work hard. And so, yeah, and that's one of the nice things about real estate. mean, I don't have a hundred percent flexible work-life balance. I can't do anything I want any time I want, but if I wanna take a couple hours off, I normally can. And so I'm not scared to do that.

 

Yeah, yeah, that's a great answer. With all your success, what is one limiting belief that you've crushed along the way and how did you get past it?

 

15. Scott (46:15.734)

Yeah, I still have a lot of them. I think we all do. But I'd say the biggest one is that doing a big deal is not that much harder than doing a little deal. I'm not going to say a hundred million dollar deal is just as easy as a hundred thousand dollar deal. But if you're smart enough to do a hundred thousand dollar deal, you're smart enough to do a hundred million dollar deal. And the people that are out there doing those hundred million dollar deals, mean, we have, we now have a hundred million dollars assets under management.

 

I remember a couple of years ago, looking at the people that had nine figures under management and thinking, they're different. I can't do that. These are people, went to some school that I will never go to, or they were born into something that I was never born into, or they know people I don't know, or whatever it is. No, they're normal people. And the only difference between them and me was I wasn't thinking big enough.

 

and I wasn't willing to take some risks and I wasn't willing to acknowledge the fact that doing again, a hundred million dollar deal is certainly within my capabilities. So that to me has been probably the biggest one and it's made it a lot easier for me now to say, okay, $50 million deal, let's go do it, not think twice.

 

Yeah. I had a similar experience working in, in, big law, doing house flips, doing single family rentals, things like that. And even though my clients are doing 50, a hundred million dollar deals and I'm helping them close those deals, it was just like the mindset shift that, a minute, I can do those deals too. I'm actually giving them advice on how to, how to do this thing. I need to step up my game and, and, take some.

 

Exactly, it's the difference between people doing a hundred million, a hundred thousand, it's all mindset.

 

Seth Bradley (48:00.866)

Yep, absolutely. What's one actual step our listeners can do right now to start creating more freedom.

 

take action. So the biggest thing that I see stopping people is just this fear to take the first step. And I know this doesn't apply to a lot of your listeners, but I talked to a lot of people who want to get into house flipping or they want to get into rentals and they've been thinking about it for years and they just never take that first step and then they end up giving up. One of the the few truisms I see in this business

 

is that there are two types of people I meet. Number one, I meet people that have never done a deal. They've done zero deals. And maybe they're still working on it. Maybe they've given up whatever it is, but they've done zero deals. And then the other type of people I meet in this business are people that have done a lot of deals. They've done five or 10 or 20 or 50 deals. There's one type of person I never ever meet in this business. And that's somebody that's done one deal. Because if you get that one deal, you're gonna get the second and the third and the fifth and the tenth.

 

Nobody does one deal and then says, okay, that's it, I'm done. can't do this. So what I like to tell people is, and that applies to a lot of things in life. If you can get over the hump and do it once, you're gonna get that snowball effect and it gets easier the second time. It gets even easier the third, it gets even easier the hundred. So don't give up until you achieve that first step or that first iteration of whatever it is you wanna achieve because that's gonna get that snowball rolling.

 

Yeah. Yeah. We preach that on their show all the time. Just like, you know, just do a deal, just invest in a deal so you can get that experience and it'll just kind of open up your mind to other opportunities. You'll just see opportunity all around you. Once you just do one deal last but not least, how it's passive income made your life better.

 

51. Scott (49:51.886)

Passive income has given me the ability and the confidence to raise a family. Before this, my biggest concern with raising a family was I didn't want to be, I had, my parents were great, but my parents were always working. And I didn't want to be the same type of father that my parents were. Again, they were fantastic, but I wanted to always be there. I wanted to be at every soccer game, every piano recital.

 

I wanted to be able to go into school for the parent-teacher conferences. so passive income has really given me the ability to build my life around my family as opposed to building my life around

 

Love that, love that. It's been fantastic, brother. We're gonna listen and find out more about you.

 

Yeah, anybody wants to get more info, go to www.connectwithjscott, just letter J, Scott, connectwithjscott.com, and that'll link you out to everything you might wanna find.

 

Awesome man. Talk soon.

 

54. Scott (50:54.945)

Awesome. Thanks,

 

All right, Mr. Jay Scott from Master House Flipper to multifamily syndicator. He's a master of creating profitable, well-oiled business machines. I've been reading Jay's bigger pockets books for years and it's awesome to have the opportunity to have him on the show today. Major key, focus. Focus on transitioning your active income to passive income and don't get distracted. All right, if you're ready for a change, you're ready to take action.

 

partner with us on one of our next passive real estate deals. Go to passiveincomeattorney.com and join our Esquire Passive Investor Club. All right, kiddos, as always, enjoy the journey.

 

Thank you for listening to the Passive Income Attorney Podcast with Seth Bradley. Do you want more ideas on how to generate multiple streams of passive income? Then jump over to passiveincomeattorney.com for show notes and resources. Then apply for the private Facebook community by searching for the Passive Income Attorney on Facebook. And we'll see you on the next episode.

 

Links from the Show and Guest Info and Links:

Seth Bradley’s Links:

https://x.com/sethbradleyesq

https://www.youtube.com/@sethbradleyesq

www.facebook.com/sethbradleyesq

https://www.threads.com/@sethbradleyesq

https://www.instagram.com/sethbradleyesq/

https://www.linkedin.com/in/sethbradleyesq/

https://passiveincomeattorney.com/seth-bradley/

https://www.biggerpockets.com/users/sethbradleyesq

https://medium.com/@sethbradleyesq

https://www.tiktok.com/@sethbradleyesq?lang=en

J. Scott’s Links:

https://www.linkedin.com/in/jscottinvestor/

https://www.instagram.com/jscottinvestor/

https://x.com/jscottinvestor

https://linktr.ee/jscottinvestor