In episode 339, we delve into Chapter 12 of Grant's latest book, exploring the cutting-edge neuroscience of change. Building on seven months of in-depth discussions, this episode aims to equip you with the knowledge to thrive in 2024 by understanding how our brain interprets change as either a reward or a threat.
We'll revisit key episodes that have previously tackled the concept of change, including insights from futurist Chris Marshall and renowned neuroscientists. Discover how your brain's response to...
In episode 339, we delve into Chapter 12 of Grant's latest book, exploring the cutting-edge neuroscience of change. Building on seven months of in-depth discussions, this episode aims to equip you with the knowledge to thrive in 2024 by understanding how our brain interprets change as either a reward or a threat.
We'll revisit key episodes that have previously tackled the concept of change, including insights from futurist Chris Marshall and renowned neuroscientists. Discover how your brain's response to social and emotional threats can be as powerful as its response to physical dangers, and learn practical strategies to navigate these challenges.
Gain a deeper understanding of Maslow's hierarchy of needs and its evolution into self-determination theory. Explore Bosnick's ACRES model—Autonomy, Competence, Relatedness, Equity, and Sureness—to see how meeting these needs can help you embrace change and achieve your goals.
Join us as we unpack Dr. Huberman's insights on how to harness neuroplasticity to create lasting behavioral changes. Learn how to manage the agitation and strain that come with pushing past your comfort zone, and find out how to build a positive change network to support your journey.
Whether you're looking to enhance your agility, resilience, or overall well-being, this episode offers valuable tools and reflections to help you navigate and embrace change with confidence.
Welcome back to SEASON 12 of The Neuroscience Meets Social and Emotional Learning Podcast, where we connect the science-based evidence behind social and emotional learning and emotional intelligence training for improved well-being, achievement, productivity and results—using what I saw as the missing link (since we weren’t taught this when we were growing up in school), the application of practical neuroscience. I’m Andrea Samadi, an author, and an educator with a passion for learning and launched this podcast 6 years ago with the goal of bringing ALL the leading experts together (in one place) to help us to APPLY this research in our daily lives.
On today's episode #339 we continue with our 18-Week Self-Leadership Series based on Grant Bosnick’s “Tailored Approaches to Self-Leadership: A Bite Size Approach Using Psychology and Neuroscience” that we first dove into with our interview on EP #321[i] the end of January. The goal was that each week, we focused on learning something new, (from Grant’s book) tied to the most current neuroscience research, that builds off the prior week, to help take us to greater heights in 2024. So far, it’s taken us 7 months to cover the first 12 chapters thoroughly, and we still have 7 chapters to go. After this week on change, we have chapter 13 on agility, 14 on resilience, 15 on relationships and authenticity, 16 on biases, 17 on trust, 18 on empathy and the final chapter 19 (and one of my target areas to focus on this year), the topic of presence. When we finish each of these chapters, we will put them all together, with a review of each one, in one place.
On today's EPISODE #339 we will cover:
✔ The Neuroscience of Change
✔ How our brains sense rewards versus threats
✔ How social and emotional threats are the same as physical threats
✔ Review of Maslow’s Hierarchy of Needs
✔ Review of Self Determination Theory
✔ Triggers to watch for during times of change.
✔ How to Change Our Nervous System to change our actions and behaviors, and leave behind a legacy we are proud of.
For Today, EPISODE #339, we are moving on to Chapter 12, covering “The Neuroscience of Change” which came out as a low priority with 0% (Pathway 5) along with Agility and Resilience. I wasn’t surprised to see this topic showing up with a low priority for me this year, mostly because I love change, and am constantly looking for new ways to do things. If I am doing the same things over and over again, I can tend to get bored, so it’s important to find new angles, and challenges, daily to inspire the most creativity.
If you’ve taken the leadership self-assessment[ii], look to see if Change (in Pathway 5) along with agility and resilience, is of a low, medium or high priority for you to focus on this year.
We’ve covered the topic of “change” in many different places on this podcast, most recently on EP 296,[iii] with Futurist Chris Marshall on his book “Decoding Change”, EP 244 “Using Neuroscience to Change our Perceptions”[iv], or EP 209 on “Using Neuroscience to Impact Change”[v] where we looked at a quote from the great, late Sir Ken’s famous TED TALK, Do Schools Kill Creativity, where he reminded us that “If you’re not prepared to be wrong, (by not fearing change and making mistakes along the way) you’ll never come up with anything original.” Think about this for a moment. Think of the times in your life where you embraced change. Would you agree with me that embracing change helps us to have more guts and perhaps stretch more in the future? It helps us to build our future confidence levels. There are many different ways to change our brain, like we found out with Dr. Michael Rousell on EP 159[vi] who taught us “How the Power of Surprise Can Secretly Change the Brain.”
So what does Grant Bosnick say about The Neuroscience of Change in Chapter 12 of his book, Tailored Approaches to Self-Leadership? He opens up the chapter with examples of change, asking how we feel when:
- Example 1: We are in nature and come across a “breathtaking view” (how do we feel) I love seeing water (rivers, lakes or waterfalls in nature). How about you? What do you enjoy seeing/feeling in nature?
- Or, think of this—we are in nature, and we see a large bear in front of us (how do we feel seeing a large bear compared to the first example of the beautiful river or waterfall)? I’ve never seen a bear, but we do see rattlesnakes often on the hiking trails with the same effect as a bear! If a rattlesnake doesn’t kill you with their venom, they could very possibly bankrupt you, due to the high cost associated with treating snake bites.[vii] Think about how seeing a bear or a snake in nature, makes you feel now? The first example is obviously peaceful, and the second quite stressful.
- Example 2: We are working hard, and go for our dream position at work, and we are thrilled that we actually land the promotion! (How do we feel) This feels incredible!
- Or, you don’t get the promotion, someone else gets it (how do we feel then)? Deflated is a word that comes to mind.
With both of these examples, the breathtaking view, or when we land the promotion we worked so hard to achieve, Bosnick explains “we feel like we got a reward. It’s a rush. We get a sensation in our brain and a hit of the big neurochemicals” dopamine, serotonin, oxytocin, norephinephrine, adrenaline.” (Page 132, Ch 12, Bosnick, Tailored Approaches to Self-Leadership).
But with the bear in the woods, (or snake on the hiking trails), or being overlooked for the promotion our brain actually sees this “like it’s a threat. We feel tense, stressed, pressure…our body physically feels it.”
Then Bosnick said something that caught my attention that showed me the difference between these two examples. Bosnick says that “Neuroscience has shown us, that the feeling we get from a social or emotional threat (like being passed over for the promotion) is the same as the feeling we get from a physical threat, (like seeing the bear of the snake) and that the negative (threat) response is stronger than the positive (reward) response.” (Page 132, Ch 12, Bosnick, Tailored Approaches to Self-Leadership). This explains to me why social and emotional threats can have a long-lasting impact on us and deflated just doesn’t cover it. If we let these threats impact us, they do have the ability to zap our future confidence levels.
When we see how our brain interprets “everything and everyone we meet as either a reward or a threat” we can better understand “how our body reacts, (and) our brain and mind think, (leading) to the decisions, behaviors and actions we make.” (Page 132, Ch 12, Bosnick, Tailored Approaches to Self-Leadership). It’s here that Bosnick reviews the five levels of Maslow’s Hierarchy of Needs, where the bottom two are our physiological needs (food, water, shelter) then safety needs (health, emotional security, financial security) that we need first for survival. The top three are our psychological needs, social belonging (friendships and love), the need for self-esteem (confidence, recognition and respect) that leads us to the top, with self-actualization (where we pursue our goals and seek happiness).
Bosnick talks about how Maslow’s model evolved into “Self-Determination Theory” around the year 2000 where researchers found that there were “three physiological needs: the need for Competence (feeling valued for our knowledge, skills and experience), the need for Relatedness (collaborating, connecting or serving others) and the need for Autonomy (being able to exercise self-regulation…to achieve our goals.” (Page 133, Ch 12, Bosnick).
Bosnick expands on this, calling it ACRES, A=autonomy or the feeling of control or choice), C=competence (feeling valued and respected for our contribution), R=relatedness (a need to belong and be accepted, to also have social connections), E=equity (perceiving actions as fair) and S=sureness (the ability to predict what’s going to happen moment to moment). (Page 133, Ch 12, Bosnick). Bosnick tells us that “if all of our ACRES are being met, it will put us in a toward state and we will fully embrace everything ahead of us; (but) if our ACRES are threatened, it will put us in an “away state” and will then resist or block things ahead of us.
IMAGE CREDIT: Figure 12.1 ACRES Example Grant Bosnick
Bosnick shows us the ACRES example in his life, showing the reward and threats he felt with a work situation.
Understanding our basic human needs, and how they have evolved over the years, helps us to understand why we resist change, whether it’s intentional, or from a subconscious point of view.
Remembering that Our brain is tied into “everything that we do, and everything that we are.” (Dr. Daniel Amen)
I can look at Bosnick’s ACRES example, and clearly think of a work experience I did not enjoy, as it went against the ACRES Model of Needs. With brain science in mind, I can gain more understanding of why I didn’t enjoy this experience, helping me to seek out a NEW work experience, where the ACRES were all met.
When I think of that work experience I did not enjoy, ALL five of the ACRES examples were not met, so I felt the negative threat response in my brain, activated daily, didn’t notice any positive reward responses, and even though I felt like I was consciously making an effort, my brain kicked into the “fight of flight response” just like my body was preparing for a threat (like the bear in the woods, or snake on the hiking trail). At the end of each day, I felt threatened and not rewarded.
Can you think of when you have felt the ACRES Model working for you (where you feel rewarded) or against you (where you feel threat) while going through change?
Bosnick next explains how open-minded or close-minded we are to change, in his figure 12.2 with an image that was created by Michael Mahoney[viii] the author of The Human Change Process book, who addresses why change is so difficult for people, and how to lean into change, and maximize your chances for success.
“The open-minded/closed minded dimension relates to the degree of mental openness to the environment and our level of curiosity. Open- minded represents the level of reward that we perceive and close-minded represents the level of threat that we perceive. With a passive mindset, we will either subtly support or oppose the change; with an active mindset, we will either overtly support or overtly reject the change.” (Page 137, Ch 12, Bosnick).
We did dive into the emotion of curiosity on our interview with the co-author of the famous book The Archeology of Mind, Lucy Biven on EP 270[ix] where we looked at Jaak Panksepp’s research, and again with Gabrielle Usatynski on EP #282[x] “How to Use Jaak Panksepp’s 7 Core Emotions to Transform Your Family, Career and Life.” With this look at effective neuroscience, it makes sense to set out with a “seeking” or curious mindset, while approaching change, to be as open as we all can to what we might learn in the process, while being mindful of what makes you close-minded. Bosnick points out that it’s normal to go back and forth between these two states, but just to be mindful of what shuts you down, or puts you in the threat response. We want to be in the “Bring Change On” quadrant from figure 12.2 but what do we do if something is “triggering” us as a threat response?
Bosnick lists a few triggers we can be mindful of watching during times of change. Some included:
- History of this particular type of change: Think about how have you been in the past with the change you are experiencing now? Remember that past behavior can help you to predict future behavior.
- Beware of the fear of loss that Bosnick says creates insecurity and unsureness.
- Beware of the fear of the unknown.
- Lacking a plan.
- Fear of giving up our freedom.
If you are going through a change right now, look at the change response quadrant figure 12.2 and see where you would place yourself. Are you clearly in the Bring it On Quadrant, or are you going back and forth between being open-minded (and ready for change) or close-minded (and unsure of yourself).
Look at the list of triggers and see if any of these are causing you to experience a threat response in your brain.
What I love about Bosnick’s book, is how many reflection activities he has, in addition to the Companion Workbook that goes along with this text. Bosnick suggests to “build a positive change network” so you don’t need to face change on your own. He suggests adding in new social connections to increase the positive rewards in your life, and minimize the threat responses you might face.
What Else Does Neuroscience Say About Change?
- Can we really change our nervous system—specifically our actions and behaviors that will lead us to NEW conditions, circumstances and environments in our life?
- Can we with focus, and with the use of our will, become more open-minded to change in our life?
After learning about how our brain either feels threatened or rewarded during times of change, I wondered what Dr. Andrew Huberman would suggest and I found an episode he did back in 2021 on “How Your Brain Works and Changes”[xi] that gave me some insight into how I can change my actions and behaviors to be more open-minded, getting me to that “Bring it on” Quadrant, so that I’ll see the change I’m experiencing as a reward, instead of a threat.
I think this is brilliant! Using our understanding of practical Neuroscience to actually change our brain, and lean into change, with an open-minded, active mindset, keeping our brain primed for rewards, and aware of how to mitigate threats.
Dr. Huberman suggests that in order to change our actions and behavior towards something, we must first of all understand how this part of our brain works in our nervous system. He dives into an hour long explanation you can watch, but I will give you the short-cut version.
He explains that our nervous system consists of these five things:
- We experience sensation (we have neurons that see color, feel sensations, taste, smell). We can’t change our sensory receptors.
- We experience perception (our ability to take what we are sensing or paying attention to) and focus on it. He says we can put a spotlight on something we want to pay attention to, for example.
- Then we have our feelings/emotions (like happiness, sadness, boredom, frustration) and he reviews how neuroscientists, psychologists, and philosophers argue (like crazy) about this topic, and how emotions/feelings work. Dr. Huberman says that it all goes back to understanding that there are certain neuromodulators that have a profound impact on our emotional state. Dopamine (involved with motivation and reward, and important with things outside of ourselves, things we want to pursue) and serotonin tends to help us to feel good with what we have. Dr. Huberman reminds us that “feelings and emotions are contextual” and that while showing joy/sadness can be appropriate in some cultures, it can also be inappropriate in others. While he says, there are no “happiness” or “sadness” circuits in our brain, but it is fair to say that “certain chemicals, and certain brain circuits tend to be active when we are in a happy/focused state, certain brain circuits tend to be active when we are also in a non-focused, or lazy state” (Dr. Huberman) It makes sense to me here to do our best to lean into the happy focused state as often as we can, knowing we could use the happiness brain chemicals in our pursuit of new things.
- Then our thoughts: that are like our perceptions, but they draw on “not just what’s happening in the present, but also things we remember from the past, and things we anticipate in the future…and our thoughts can be controlled in a deliberate way” (Dr. Huberman). We have spent a considerable amount of time on this podcast talking about how important our thoughts are, with ways to lean into positive thinking, and put a hard STOP on the negative thoughts that come our way.
- Then finally our actions and behaviors that Dr. Huberman considers to be the most important part to our nervous system. Our actions and behaviors he says are the only things that will create any “fossil record” of our existence. Or I say, they will be what will determine our legacy, or the impact we want to have on the outside world. When we die, our body disintegrates. The sensations, perceptions, feelings and emotions, or thoughts we had in our lifetime “none of these are carried forward” except the ones that we convert into actions (like writing, or actually doing something with the things we THINK about. Our legacy, or “fossil record” is through the ACTION we take in our life.
IMAGE CREDIT: Andrea recreated this image from Dr. Andrew Huberman's Solo EP Jan 3, 2001 "How Your Brain Works"
At this point, I can draw back on MANY episodes where we have focused on taking action (rather than just thinking of what we want to do) but we are focused on the Neuroscience of Change right now. How can we stay open-minded to bring on change in 2024 and keep moving forward?
Dr. Huberman has us reflect back on what builds our Nervous System (our sensations, our perceptions, feelings and emotions, our thoughts) and they ALL lead to this one last part, our ability to TAKE ACTION.
He says that we do “have the ability to change our nervous system” and this is when we “deliberately put our focus on something that we want to do.” This is where the work comes in here. When we want to “learn something new, CHANGE something (like a behavior) and he gives the example of learning to resist speaking, or force yourself to be quiet where we want to actively suppress our behavior and CHANGE our BEHAVIOR or ACTIONS.
When are suppressing a circuit in our brain, (using our forebrain that is fully developed by age 22) to do something different (that’s challenging to us) norepinephrine (adrenaline) is released and it will create a feeling of challenge or agitation as you engage these neurocircuits to push yourself past this threshold of where you normally don’t go. In the situation where we are learning to not speak, and withhold something we really want to say, we are putting self-regulation into action. “You will feel limbic friction that comes from this top-down processing.” (Dr. Huberman).
Think about any time you have tried to take a new action or behavior. You’ll feel annoyed (which is really the adrenaline that’s released from your brain).
“Agitation and strain is the entry point to neuroplasticity” Dr. Huberman
If we can push past this agitation and strain, we will be changing our brain, our actual nervous system, as we create a NEW change of behavior in our life.
This brings me to a quote by Peter Senge where he says that “people don’t resist change. They resist being changed.” That feeling of agitation will come up during change, and when the change is your choice…or something that you really want to do, you will push past the threshold to overcome the change.
REVIEW AND CONCLUSION
To review and conclude this week’s episode #339 on “The Neuroscience of Change” we looked at two examples of what happens to our brain when we see something our brain wasn’t expecting, like the breathtaking view, or when we land the promotion we worked so hard to achieve, Bosnick explains “we feel like we got a reward. It’s a rush. We get a sensation in our brain and a hit of the big neurochemicals” dopamine, serotonin, oxytocin, norephinephrine, adrenaline.” (Page 132, Ch 12, Bosnick, Tailored Approaches to Self-Leadership).
But when we see a bear in the woods, (or snake on the hiking trails), or we are overlooked for a promotion at work, our brain actually sees this “like it’s a threat. We feel tense, stressed, pressure…our body physically feels it.”
We learned that “Neuroscience has shown us, that the feeling we get from a social or emotional threat (like being passed over for the promotion) is the same as the feeling we get from a physical threat (like seeing a bear or a snake).
When we see how our brain interprets “everything and everyone we meet as either a reward or a threat” we can better understand “how our body reacts, (and) our brain and mind think, (leading) to the decisions, behaviors and actions we make.” (Page 132, Ch 12, Bosnick, Tailored Approaches to Self-Leadership).
Next we reviewed Maslow’s Hierarchy of Needs that led to “Self-Determination Theory” around the year 2000 where researchers found that there were “three physiological needs: the need for Competence (feeling valued for our knowledge, skills and experience), the need for Relatedness (collaborating, connecting or serving others) and the need for Autonomy (being able to exercise self-regulation…to achieve our goals.” (Page 133, Ch 12, Bosnick).
We learned that when our ACRES are being met, (our autonomy, competence, relatedness, equity, and sureness) it will put us in a toward state and we will fully embrace everything ahead of us; (but) if our ACRES are threatened, it will put us in an “away state” and will then resist or block things ahead of us.
Looking at Bosnick’s ACRES example, we thought about work experience we did not enjoy, to see where it went against the ACRES Model of Needs. With brain science in mind, we can gain more understanding of why we either enjoyed, or didn’t enjoy this experience. It all led back to how our brain either interprets the experience as a reward, or a threat.
We looked at triggers to be aware of to mitigate threat, during times of change.
Finally, we looked at how to change our nervous system, to change our actions and behaviors, so we can leave behind a legacy (or fossil record as Dr. Huberman calls it) that we are proud of.
We learned that “Agitation and strain is the entry point to neuroplasticity” Dr. Huberman
This is when lasting CHANGE is happening at the brain level, and impacting our entire nervous system. So when I’m working on something, (like trying to learn something new…like understanding the neuroscience of change for this episode) and that limbic friction feeling comes up, (and I’m annoyed or agitated) I now have a deeper understanding of what’s happening at the brain level. I will now push forward, stay positive and lean into the change that I know is happening in my brain, as I embrace the change and say “Bring it on!”
The Neuroscience of Change is an exciting topic, and it’s only going to be strengthened with the next two topics, Agility and Resilience.
To close, I’ll revisit the quote from the great Sir Ken[xii], who’s vision for creativity in our schools and workplaces of the future, is something that left a lasting impression on me. If we are afraid of change, of failing and doing something wrong, we will never come up with anything original.
I hope this episode has inspired you, like it has me, to lean into change, with brain science in mind, and keep working on the legacy or fossil record that you want to leave on the world.
I’ll see you next time.
REVIEW OF OUR MAP (This is chapter 12/19)
In this 18-week Series that we began in the beginning of February, (after I was inspired to cover Grant’s book after our interview the end of January) we are covering:
✔ Powerful tactics from this Grant Bosnick’s award-winning book that illustrates how change and achievement are truly achievable both from internal ('inside out') and external ('outside in') perspectives.
✔Listeners will grasp the immense power of self-leadership and its transformative effect on personal growth and success by applying the neuroscience Grant has uncovered in each chapter.
✔Explore practical strategies for habit formation and the impact of a self-assessment system.
✔Gain insights from Grant's expert advice on maintaining a balance between strengths and weaknesses while chasing after your goals.
✔Embark on an intellectual journey that has the power to elevate personal achievement and self-awareness to uncharted levels while we map out our journey over this 18-week course.
REFERENCES:
[i]Neuroscience Meets Social and Emotional Learning Podcast EPISODE #321 with Grant ‘Upbeat’ Bosnick https://andreasamadi.podbean.com/e/insights-from-grant-upbeat-bosnick/
[ii] Self-Assessment for Grant Bosnick’s book https://www.selfleadershipassessment.com/
[iii] Neuroscience Meets Social and Emotional Learning Podcast EPISODE #296 with Chris Marshall on “Decoding Change” https://andreasamadi.podbean.com/e/futurist-and-behavioral-scientist-chris-marshall-on-decoding-change/
[iv]Neuroscience Meets Social and Emotional Learning Podcast EPISODE #244 https://andreasamadi.podbean.com/e/brain-fact-friday-using-neuroscience-to-change-our-perception/
[v]Neuroscience Meets Social and Emotional Learning Podcast EPISODE #209 “Using Neuroscience to Impact Change” https://andreasamadi.podbean.com/e/using-neuroscience-to-impact-change/
[vi] Neuroscience Meets Social and Emotional Learning Podcast EPISODE #159 “Using the Power of Surprise to Change Your Beliefs” https://andreasamadi.podbean.com/e/dr-michael-rousell-on-the-power-of-surprise-how-your-brain-secretly-changes-your-beliefs/
[vii] Rattlesnake Bites in Pima County Pose Costly Consequences Bri Pacelli April 2, 2024 https://www.kgun9.com/news/community-inspired-journalism/midtown-news/rattlesnake-bites-in-pima-county-pose-costly-consequences
[viii] Human Change Processes by Michael Mahoney https://www.amazon.com/Human-Change-Processes-Foundations-Psychotherapy/dp/0465031188
[ix] Neuroscience Meets Social and Emotional Learning Podcast EPISODE #270 “A short-Cut to Understanding Affective Neuroscience” with Lucy Biven https://andreasamadi.podbean.com/e/lucy-biven/
[x] Neuroscience Meets Social and Emotional Learning Podcast EPISODE #282 “How to Use Jaak Panksepp’s 7 Core Emotions to Transform Your Family, Career and Life” https://andreasamadi.podbean.com/e/gabrielle-usatynski-on-how-to-use-jaak-panksepp-s-7-core-emotions-to-transform-your-relationships-family-career-and-life/
[xi] How Your Brain Works and Changes by Dr. Andrew Huberman 2021 https://open.spotify.com/episode/6wuY0R571xaBTbNOX4yuqY
[xii] Do Schools Kill Creativity? Sir Ken Robinson TED Talk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iG9CE55wbtY
