Alan Cadiz Wing Foil Interview #2- Blue Planet Show Season 2 Episode 18

Aloha friends, it's Robert Stehlik, welcome to season two of the Blue Planet Show.  On this show, I interview wing foil enthusiasts, athletes, designers, thought leaders, and go into great detail on technique, equipment, but also tried to find out a little bit more about the person, what inspires them, and how they live their best life.

You can watch it right here on YouTube. For those of you who are visual learners like myself, that's really helpful to have that visual content. But of course you can also listen to it as a podcast on your favorite podcast app. Just look for the blue planet show. In this interview with Alan Cadiz is we start with very basic beginner tips, the top five tips for beginners, and then we get into a much more advanced stuff as well.

So there's something here for everybody. And we also talk about equipment, including what Alan used in the recent wing foil race on Maui that he actually won against other wingers that were less than a third of his age. So a nice work Alan, on that. I really hope you enjoy this interview. If you do, please remember to give it a thumbs up here on YouTube and subscribe to the blueplanetsurf YouTube channel. And without further ado here is Alan Cadiz:

Allen, welcome to the Blue Planet Show! Actually, welcome back to the blue planet show. Thank you for inviting me back. Yeah, so we, we had a great interview last year and there was one of them actually, it was the most popular video on the Bhutanese show with almost 40,000 views on YouTube and then a lot of listens on the podcast as well.

You always have great information. People love to hear about it. So that's great to have you back on the show and just wanted to catch up and see what happened over the last year. So what's new or what's the latest and greatest that's going on Maui? It's during the last year, it's just been more, more winging.

We've had consistent wind all year on winging is growing in popularity on, it's still been quiet, with COVID winding down. It's not as many people as in the past, but we just had our first competitive event in three years. And what else is new? That's cool. Yeah. We're going to get into that more later that definitely hear about that Patagonia, kite and wing festival, but to get started like last year, I'm usually asked all the more advanced questions first that I was interested in.

Hearing about, and then at the end I asked the guests to talk a little bit about beginner tips, but I want to turn it around the other way, start with the beginner stuff and then work up to more advanced things. Cause I figured that most people that are really into winging are gonna watch till the end or listened to the end and the beginners, we got to get them into it right in the beginning.

So I asked you to come up with your top five tips for beginners to get into wink foiling. And you not only prepared some answers, but you've made a little video from what I understand. So let's start with that. What are your top five tips for beginners? All right. Thank you. Yeah. So I was thinking about those tips and there's so many different things.

But I've tried to think about the key things and I put together a little timeline video here. Tip number one. And I just pulled these clips out of my inventory of clips and start on a big board. Now this is a winter Ford. We have a surplus of wind surfboards here on Maui on you can, you might think a sup board would be a good substitute, but you really need the daggerboard unless you can put strap-on fins on your support.

I don't recommend using the support. It really needs to have something with the daggerboard now. And I recommend this for people who are just learning, how to use the wing, just to learn the basics on you can learn on a set board a foil board, but I recommend a large foil board to start with.

Here, I've got Frank my, my pay here. He's a very skilled. And using a smaller board. It's challenging. So as a beginner, if you're on a smaller board, it's pretty tough to get going. And, in the extreme case, a really small board, it has its advantages, but it's tough to get up on the smaller boards and this is goes through the whole spectrum.

So as a beginner, you really want to have a floaty board is just more challenging to get up. There are advantages to the tiny board once you're up. But in the learning stages, you really want to have a floating board. Yeah, I totally agree with that. So that's tip number one. So not everyone has access to the big boards on and.

It doesn't because the learning curve is so fast. It doesn't always make sense to buy a big board. Maybe for some, they've got a big family or they've got a slow learning curve or they're sailing in light wind, but if they have the option to rent on, I would encourage that for the first, a few runs on a mistake that a lot of people make is they'll run out and buy the board that they think they're going to end up on, maybe an 80, 80 liter board.

And it's a real struggle to learn on those smaller boards. You can do it, but it just takes a lot longer. So if you have access to a bigger board take advantage of. Yeah, very good. And then I just wanted to mention too, for people that have an old standard board or something, a big floaty signup board, there is a kind of a stick-on center thin daggerboard available from Slingshot.

I believe that you can basically glue onto the bottom of your board and make if your board doesn't have a dagger board. And that makes a big difference because it keeps the board from this going downwind. If you only have the fins on the tail, the boards is going to turn down when, and it's going to be very hard to stay cross winds.

I've seen people show up at the beach with the sup board and have that problem where they just go straight down wind. So yeah, that's basically I as tip number one, before you try this foil, learn the wing handling with a regular board that doesn't have a foil on it, basically. Yes. And if you don't have access to that, you can, learn on a foil board, but really get your hands on the biggest foil board you can get.

Yeah. And I, I don't know if this is another tip you had to, but I'm also practice as much as you can on the beach before you get it on the water. The wing handling a lot of it. You can practice on the beach before, before you're in the water. Yes, I do have that. I think it's tip number four or five.

Okay. So tip number two, you want to learn how to steer the board and turn around? Very close to the beach specifically, learn to turn around before you get out there on, so this is my daughter she's she has an interesting technique. She'll kneel down at the end of her run, do the turn on her knees. So she doesn't fall.

And then stand back up. But the point is that you're turning around close to the beach. And when I say close, 20 feet out, get on the board and turn the board around 180 degrees to come back in. You don't want to get a hundred yards off shore and realize you can't turn around. Now I can keep going or I can keep going, or we can discuss that idea.

Yeah. I think that's a really good tip. I guess a lot, I know I've heard of people, like they were so excited about getting up on foil and be able to go there. They just kept going as long as they could before they fell in. But then when they got way outside, like in Hawaii, Kai, for example you realize, oh, I don't know how to go the other way.

Yeah. And why Kai is slightly off shore. If I remember. So maybe that's a tip in itself, you want to go in a place where it's side shore, if it's off shore wind, make sure you're sailing with a partner to keep an eye on you. Yeah. And then I'll also, it's a good idea to just if you have a place where you can just go down when, and maybe park your car at the other end, then don't have to worry about staying up when in the beginning.

Yes. This next clip is all about staying up wind. And this is something that when I'm teaching my students, I try to focus on getting them to go up wind for a number of reasons. And the biggest reason is that you're not downwind. You don't have to walk back up or find transportation. You spend your time sailing back and forth instead of walking back up.

So this next clip here is a little bit longer. It's actually a section of a video that I call maximum performance. This is the tip for beginners on turning the board up when, and this is one of my edited videos on, so I'll go ahead and play the whole thing. It's about two or three minutes, and then we can stop and talk about it.

Okay. Great. One of the things I want to cover with quickly, this is more of at the novice level. And this is for almost the first time wingers. It's really easy to go down, wind and end up down wind very quickly. What I want you to try and do is turn the board into the wind.

This does two things. One is it gets you going up wind. So you're not losing as much ground. And it slows the board.

The struck is like a wind sock or a weather vane. It wants to point the wing into the wind. You can use this constant to leverage the board upwind or downwind by pointing the clue towards the back or front of the board. Respect. So we call the back of the struck clue or back end of the wing. And if I point that wing pointed down wind, it's going to point the board down wind.

So I want to point the struck behind or in this case to my left, the more I aim it to the left I'm pulling here. The more it turns into the wind.

If I push it away, it turns down with this is done while luffing the wing overhead and steering the board through your core.

If you come from a windsurfing background, you'll recognize this as similar to wind surfing in that if you drag the clue towards the tail of the board will turn up.

When you twist the wing toward the tail of the board, the wing wants to return to pointing into the wind and as it does it torques your body and board up wind. However, if you sheet in while pulling the clue back, the sheeting will overpower the steering effectively canceling the wings, torque to turn the board up wind, I'll say it again.

Over sheeting cancels, the upwind effort, move your hands forward or sheet out as you twist the clue towards the back of the.

You're going down when

you need the sheet, it out, turn it up when, and then start

simply stated left the wing. As you twist the wing to torque the board up wind.

I actually really like how you explain what the weather vain and that, when you pull it the. The strike wants to point straight down downwind. And then if you manipulate that'll give you a steering momentum. So I've never really heard it explained that way, but it like intuitively we know how it works, but it's hard to explain it to someone who doesn't understand that concept.

So I think that's a really good way to explain it. Thank you. I've been trying all different ideas, one way to think of the strep as a rudder or a guide. And you're aiming that guide to torque the board on a bunch of different ways to show it. And I even, I look at this and I'm like, oh, I might've might do that a little bit differently next time or try to explain it differently, which is I try to attack the idea from a different angle and try different ways.

And on teaching this to my students early on, I couldn't understand why they were going down when, what was causing it to go down when, and even myself, I couldn't understand what was the technique to get it, to turn up, wind on until I started well, trying to solve the problems at night, going to bed at night, thinking that why were they having trouble?

Why can't they do that? Yeah, I've been trying to capture it on video. Nice. Yeah. Okay, cool. I think we're ready for the next tip. Yeah. Okay. The next tip is more or less where you're standing on the board. So food placement on the board let's start with being off foil. So when you're slogging out to the wind line your front foot should be slightly on the Windward side and your back foot on the more or less on the stringer, as opposed to being this orientation.

This is going to actually set you up to point further down. Or that is it's harder to go up wind in this position than this position. Now, the next thing to determine is where to stand on the board regarding the board's flotation. So you may be comfortable standing in the front, but if the nose of the board is curling, you need to move back.

On the other hand, if the tail is sinking, you need to move forward. Again, this is off foil. And once you find that flotation point, you want to adjust your foil so that you stay in this position, as it comes up on foil, you can't be stepping forward as it transitions to on foil. So you want to have your feet in the spot when it foils.

Okay. One thing that I've done in the past with some of my boards is I've marked on the board. Some lines just as a reference for. So I have an idea of where to stand before foils. Ideally you want to be comfortably on the flotation, but when it foils, you want to make sure that your foil is matched with that flotation point and having marks on the board, just give you a better idea of where to place your feet.

Yeah, exactly. And if the D or does design well and you and your files in the right place, basically where you stand to float in the center of flotation, that should also be more or less where you want to stand once the board lifts up, right? Yes. Yes. You can put the foil too far forward in the track or too far back, or if you have a foil with a lot of lift in it on, you may have to adjust that, but.

Yeah and then another good point you add it. And then in a different video with the was being centered over the center line of the board to cause you might be able to fly on when the boards on the water, if you're not exactly in the center, it's fine. But once the board lifts up and you're on foil, you have to be centered exactly over the foil the center line of the board.

And that's the next clip here staying centered. I do have in this shot here, you think more of front and back where you're pressuring the nose down and you're kicking it up, but there's also the side to side. So that's this next clip here. Okay. We'll just play that whole thing.

Okay. Some people are afraid to learn to foil for fear of falling on the foil, a legitimate concern. So let's look at what causes this type of.

So let's look at the foil. It generates lift. The front wing is lifting up the back wing. The stabilizer is pushing down, but together there's force up through the mast lifting the board. Now it's important that you trim your weight for, and AFT. If it's too far in the front, you're going to stick to the water.

If it's too far in the back, you're going to overflow. So you're constantly trimming the weight and a half, but it's also equally important to keep your center of mass directly over the foil. So the foil is lifting up. Gravity is pushing you down and if they're equal, you stay centered over the board. But often as a sailor, you have another force that the sail is pulling you laterally.

So you need to compensate by leaning back against that pole. And when the. It's flat on the water. You have the stability of the ocean. So you can put lateral push on the side of the board, but as soon as it comes up on foil, you don't have that stability and any sideways push is going to cause it to in this case flip away and you fall towards the foil on your bum.

And here's a couple examples,

unlike windsurfing, where you're pointing your toes to keep the board flat in foiling, you're flexing your foot to keep your ankles at a right angle to the board, or that is your body. Mass is always over the top of the board. And the top means at a right angle.

I have this drone footage, which really shows it, centered right over the top of the board, even though he's hiked out he's on. And then here, if you draw a line from the mast up through his center of mass, you can really see it here.

So if you're not centered and I've got one more clip here of not being centered and you can see it right there. It's the beginning of the. Yeah, that's a really good point then. And I always like to tell people too, when they, before they try to wing and foil together, maybe just try to learn how to control the foil first.

I guess even going behind a boat though is sometimes you got to pull from the rope, so you can lean against the rope. So you can be a little bit off centered on, on, on the floor away from the pool of the rope, if you're going sideways. But but just to have that feel where you can, where you're foiling on the board without getting pulled or without pressure, so that you understand that you have to be right over the center line of the foil and you can't be like offset, yeah. Trying to isolate just the foil skills. Th the foil is one way, but the foil is different. The board is pretty heavy, so it's not as responsive. As a regular foil board certainly the prawns surfers that come to wing foiling, they have the skill already going behind a boat on is good.

But I have seen people that have learned behind a boat. And when they're out on the wing board, they're leaning back against the wing, trying to wheelie the board. And I'm like no, you can't leverage, you can't leverage the board like that with the wing, the way you can with the rope. But any foil time that you can get before you get on a wing is good.

Yeah, I agree. So the next clip here is about wing handling. And that is we talked about it earlier about practicing on the beach and here's just a few things on. A few things you can practice on the beach, simple stuff like flipping the wing over. And this is a six meter when I'm trying to flip a six meter wing over in the water is pretty tough.

So you can practice it on the beach. You can practice standing up, having the wing help you get to your feet. And the wingspan on a six meter, you have to go up to the wing tip to flip it over. So it looks easy and it's relatively easy on the beach. It's harder in the water, but that's something you can practice.

And just practicing, like for tacking or jiving, just practicing the hand movements of flipping the wing over on, just leaning back against the wind and the wind. And this is something you have to do where there's a breeze. You can't do it in your backyard where the winds all squirt. You really need to have steady wind to get steady feedback, but this is worth doing, taking the time.

And that there's in most of my instructional videos, I've got some kind of beach homework where you practice on the beach, whether it's the Heineken jibe or tacking or whatever. Yeah, no, that's really good advice. I think in a lot of times the beginners too, don't if you don't have a wig like a cutting or windsurfing or a sailing background just beginners have a hard time understanding exactly where the wind is coming from and how to angle your wing and relation to the wind and which way you want to go in and out, what's what direction can you go?

And what does. You can't, you can't go straight into the wind obviously, and things like that, that's things people don't understand at first, I think, or don't think about really. So just learning that. And then also I like to get people to just keep the wing tip, kinda get the wink to blow to the sand, but without touching it, like controlling the height of the wing on the beach, and that, that's something that, that I'm in.

I've got videos on that and all the clips here, this is just a fraction of the stuff that I have. And there's so much more there's so many more tips and these, I wouldn't call these the top five tips. These are just five tips in general on, and I also, the sport's still relatively young and we may look back in a few years and think, oh, we were teaching that progression where it's so much better to teach this progression.

There's still so much we're learning about the sport. Yeah there's there's definitely the idea of sheeting and steering the wing on, I've taken a couple stabs at explaining that in one video, I have one video up there already on what I'm going to. I have another video where I'm trying to explain it more clearly to sailors or non sailors, and just the idea of sheeting in and out to catch the wind and spill it.

That's relatively easy. But when you throw in the steering of the wing up and down in front of you, like you said, having the wing tip right on the sand and taking it above your head and separating those two skills it's a challenge to get people to understand that. It's really simple once you get it, but it's sometimes difficult.

Yeah, you have to grasp that concept first and the I, and I like to even the more advanced maneuvers and all the different tax and things like that on your patron channel, you have like really detailed info videos breaking it down. Step-by-step into really easy to follow steps that very detailed and, I highly recommend that your instructional videos are great, and I think, those beginner tips are great, not just for the beginners, but also for more advanced guys.

Cause you're going to have to show other help, other people that are learning and just understanding how to explain things like how to steer the board up into the wind. Th those are kinds of things. If you have a good way to explain it and to make it easy to understand that'll help a lot.

Yes. Yeah, that's good. My following on Patrion has grown almost a 700 at the moment, or just over seven to 700 at the moment. And the range of skills on, there's beginners on there that are just trying to get up for the first time. And then there's advanced sailors that are asking for jumping and more advanced stuff.

This recent video, the one you're looking at gliding on foil, that's more for entry-level. It's gliding is a skill that you take for granted, it's really easy to do once you know how to do it. But I had a number of students recently that I could see, they were relying on the wind for support and they didn't have the feel for gliding.

Yeah okay. So yeah, I just find it too. I'm just, screen-sharing this now you're at your patron channel and yeah, it's 747 patrons. That's great. Congratulations on that. So it's actually I guess if you get enough people supporting you, then it's actually, you can actually make a living, being a virtual instructor, basically.

Just making the instructional videos and teaching. Yeah, I so that, that seems like it really good business model for you, huh? I fell into it, with COVID when they shut down all the restaurants and airplanes and they closed the beach parks. That's when I started doing this and someone suggested I do a premium online video here on Patrion.

And so I've been doing that for the last almost two years now. I think there's 20, 22 or 24 videos, instructional videos ranging from. The first time holding the wing to more advanced stuff like three sixties and Heineken jibes and that kind of stuff. Heineken jibes and the three sixties.

That's probably the top 10% of wingers out there. I think the majority of wingers are working on basic stuff like this jibe here, that's George, one of our local sailors. This came to wild, demonstrating how to glide on the swell on. So this is a clip from the wave video on. So there's all different skill levels here and I've tried to try to address all of them.

Yeah. I like how you explain how to I guess that's a challenging thing at first for people that are used to just always having the wing powered up and leaning against the wind. That to transition into not using the wing and deciding on the foil without using the wing wind power.

So that's what you explaining it and just doing it kind of real step-by-step slowly getting used to this using the energy from the foil without having the wing pull you along. Yes. And if you come from a prone foiling background, you already know how to do this automatic.

But for the prone boilers, I've got tips on how to use the wing. Yeah. That makes sense. And I think this is a really important skill for jiving because basically when you're going into the jive, you have to de power the wing and just surf a turn on, or, do a turn on the foil without using the wind power basically.

Yes. That was the idea of it. So that angle right there that's, I got this new camera, actually it's not new, but I had to modify it for that board. Yeah. I just wanted to ask you about the the different handles. On the duotone wings, you have the rigid handles.

And then some, you have some that have the longer boom handle, like this one, and then the new D-Lab unit that you're using has two, two separate handles. We'll look a little bit about the handles and yeah the advantages and disadvantages of having rigid handles and two handles versus one long handle and so on.

Coming from a windsurf background, I've always liked the boom. And in fact that the first wings that my neighbor Ken was making all have booms. So we started with boom. I don't know if you remember the first echos on they had a boom and. The nice thing about the boom is it's infinite hand placement.

You can put your hands anywhere along the boom. When you're flipping the wing over your head, it's really easy to feel where the boom is. You don't have to look where the handles are. You shouldn't be looking even if you have handles. And the boom is so much more rigid than the webbing handles. So in fact, most manufacturers now are switching to some kind of rigid handle.

The handles I've gotten used to the handles, but initially when I went from the boom to the handles, I was grabbing in between the handles and missing and falling in. Now I can grab the boom or grab the handles pretty much every time without looking. I know where they are. Some of the bigger wings, the handles are a little further apart.

So I've got to remember to reach further back on. That's one of the things you miss when you have the boom or the two handles. I noticed like when I come out of the jive, I like to grab the wing right in the middle with one hand so that it kind of flies. But it would be right between those two handles.

So do you ever miss having that that grip in the right in the middle or you just get used to? I did get used to it. I did have that problem. I grabbed right in the middle and fall. So it, it took me a while to retrain my hands. I still prefer the boom over the handles, but these, this D-Lab wing is really superior.

This cloth it's super stiff. So the wing is really tight and light. You can see there. It's just, it's really nice. So I'll tolerate the handles to use that wing. And so let's talk about that a little bit, so that new this is the Lula fabric on the new do a tongue D-Lab weighing, and then they also have the unit in with the regular Dacron leading edge and and strike.

So can you talk a little bit about the difference between the two? And I know that there's a big difference in price, so I just wondering what you think they are the different between the difference between the two and if it's worth it for the average user to spend more, to get that well there, the wings are virtually the same shape slash design, just different cloth.

So the yellow cloth, the Lula cloth makes it really stiff and light. So if you're into performance, the Alula is the way to go on the, I think the sizes are from up to seven. Or no two and a half to seven meter, but the Alula the D labs don't start until three five on, but you're really gonna appreciate the Alula cloth in the bigger sizes on, 5, 6, 7 meter that's in the light wind where you want that lightness and stiffness.

Now, as far as the value on, money is different things to, it's a different thing for everybody. For some people money's not an issue, they can get whatever they want. I think as a novice Patty, my wife, her favorite wing is the SLS three, five unit on, I really liked the Fibo D-Lab I think that's what we're looking at here.

Yeah, this is, I think this is the three, five, or the three meter SLS. This is one of her favorite wings, although she recently tried the D lab for, and she said, this is my new favorite wing, and this is my shit. She tried to claim my fluoro. I'll share it with you. That's interesting. Yeah, that you're saying that that yeah.

Makes more of a difference than in a bigger wing on, in lighter wind, obviously. Yeah. Because if you have plenty of wind then I guess actually sometimes having a little bit of weight in the wind can actually be a good thing too, in some cases. It's not always the case that lighter is always better, but definitely in a big wing and light wind, it makes it, it can make a big difference, right?

Yes. Yes. I'm not sure we're heavy is good, but that's true. But my thank you. You're gonna they're all good, but you're gonna appreciate the bigger sizes with the D lab and. As a novice sailor, you'll be fine with the SLS. I think you're going to pay a little extra for that performance in the Alula cloth.

Okay, cool. Let's talk a little bit about that recent event you mentioned earlier, the Patagonia Caden, Wade Fest. You said that was just recently and there was a freestyle part of it and the race part of it. So let's talk a little bit about that event. I did a film, a little bit of the freestyle on, and I can try and share that here.

I was the Patagonia Maui, kite and Wingfield festival was that canal beach park. And when I got my camera out, the battery was flashing almost dead. So I just filmed one year. This is Chris McDonald. He won the event with moves like this he's 16 years old from the Gorge.

That's here's Kailani. He dropped in and he was doing moves. I'm not sure how he finished up. I think he made it to the final. I only filmed one heat. Just this Andre. He's a local ripper. He did pretty well. Wow. And I think also in this heat Otis Buckingham, no, that's Chris again. That's so you can see why he won the event there.

Oh, so there was racing and unfortunately I don't have any video of the race stuff. But you told me earlier that you actually won the race event. So just tell us about it. I did I spent a lot of time training for it and I had some really good gear and one of the guys I sail with all the time, he says, when you're out there, I can see you're sailing with purpose.

You're training for this. And I did. I worked really hard on it and I actually, I'm going to just show a little clip of the board that I used on. So I got this new board flying Dutchman. This is what that camera Mount I'll show you that. And then I posted this on Instagram clip coming up here.

So this flying Dutchman is different from my previous board in that it's a little. Mark made it a little narrower. So I wouldn't drag the rail while I was going to Winward other dimensions, sorry. Or what are the dimensions? Is the board it's four foot 11 by 21 inches wide. And it's about 60 liters, 20 to 60 liters, 2021 wide 2121.

Okay. Pretty narrow four foot 11

engine the board so that when I do touch down, there's more of a planning surface, the rails not digging in and on the back. There's no tail rocker, no tail kick, just a sharp edge. And this really helps to release the board from the water. Now it's also matched with a Mike's lab and I wasn't sure about the Tuttle box, but after trying it in this board, it's super solid.

It's all one piece, no moving parts. There's no play whatsoever. It's just really tight. And then my result in the racing I finished, I actually won the racing event. Excellent. Yeah. Thank you. Then. You're probably not the youngest one in there by far. In fact, you could probably fit a whole generation in between me and the next place.

When I went to the registration up in , it was at a. Mandatory. I went up there and I got in line and everyone in front of me was a teenager and I thought, oh man, what am I doing here? The older guys were in their twenties. Yeah. So one third year age. Yeah. Yeah. But I have to say that the Maui fleet and a wife who, they were a couple of people that came over from wahoo, both the men and women, young men and women, they're going to be a force.

They've got some talent and, they were going plenty fast in the racing, but the start line and the tactics. That's where my experience came in. So tell us how that whole, how it worked at, what was the format like? How did this start work? W were, how were the terms and upwind, downwind, and so on.

Tell us how that format works. They had a rabbit start that is that a jet ski raced across the start line and you'd pass behind the jet ski on and we'd race out. It was a close reach to a mark outside. And then from that mark, we had to go up wind to a Windward mark. So it, the way it was set up, it spread everyone out on and I had some good starts.

And then the upwind leg, it was favored on the inside. It was a little bit north wind. So you'd get a good lift along the shoreline, which I knew from experience where most of the fleet went outside into deeper water where the wind was lighter and there was more current on there were. Some of the kids that Chris McDonald, he was very fast.

He beat me to the Windward mark twice. But I was able to catch him on the downwind run. It was almost a straight downwind run to the finish line. So you had to zigzag your way to get down there. And Kai, I think he was able to pump downwind faster than with the wind, his pumping skills where most other sailors had to zigzag back and forth.

And I was using a six meter. It was light wind by Maui standards on, I was using a six meter. So yeah, I feel pretty good about that when I think it's probably my last competition, I'm passing the Baton onto these younger people. That or I'm anxious to see where they take the sport. And I'm confident in the riders.

We have so much window defending champion. You can't give up after the first time. No. I've yeah. I'm 60 years old Robert it's tough to compete 16. And I remember when I was doing wind surfing competition, when I was 20, I was looking to the guys that were 25 and I thought those guys have peaked.

They've peaked at 25. And for sure, in, in windsurfing jumping freestyle, doing the leaps and having the flexibility, I think you do peak in your early twenties, more endurance style type of stuff on more in your thirties, in your sixties. I'm not sure. I think what I've earned is that shirt that says old guys rule.

I think that's about. Experience too, right? You have, you got the experience and then, like you said, you train with the purpose and you're ready for it. So you're not just winging it, you're actually winging it. Yeah,

yeah. No, it's awesome. I love that. You can still beat everyone, including the guys. I Lenny, that's pretty awesome. No, Chi is, I, he it was funny during the wave event, one of the announcers talked about Chi being a legend. And I thought he's, he is a legend, as far as his ability.

There's no question there, but when I think of legend as an old, if he is a legend, what does that make me? Am I guess I'm a fossil, but no, Kai and all the younger kids, Chi's, he's so good at everything. And he hasn't really put effort into wing racing. And I think if he spends just, a very short period of time, he'll be on the top of his game. It seems like whatever he tries out, he succeeds, but there's a lot of other young talent on Maui.

That, that is really good. And I, we have the amount of advantage in that we have wind almost every day you can wing. And with the waves came to wild is doing some turns in the waves that are really impressive and he's just getting started. So it's going to be really exciting to watch as this younger generation leads the way right.

I'm stepping aside. And then I guess something, I was going to ask you to like, Yeah, generally two foot straps in the front and then not no foot strap in the back, which means basically you're not really jumped. You can't really use that set up to jump or not jump very high anyways.

Yeah. Or do you most, do you just avoid jumping usually or do you actually do jumps with that sort of, I do not do jumps and early on, I made a pledge to myself that I would not take the sport to the air on. I had a back injury surfing, a compressed vertebrae, a wedge vertebrae, and my physical therapist says I can't afford another fall.

So I don't trust myself. I'm looking at these guys do in the jumps, I've studied Chris McDonalds, flips and I'm like, I could do that. I know I could do. But no, I know better. The back there's no back foot strap because I do move my foot around a lot and it does keep me from jumping.

I was just noticing in this picture, the leash, I have it attached to the foot strap because when I have it attached to the back of the board, it would flip and get in the way of the camera. Okay. So I want to show you my, and one of those retracting leashes that like, I should send you one of those, but yeah I noticed actually, why don't you keep that up for a little bit.

I want to talk about the equipment a little bit. Yeah. I noticed you have the leash pug monster on the tail of the board, is that, so it's kinda more out of the way of your feet or less drag or what's the idea behind that? Putting it back there? Oh, sorry. Here. Rapid horse at flying Dutchman suggested I put it back there and it seems like a good spot.

I noticed I do have a prom foil board that I use for surfing. And the Mount is, I don't know if you can see my mouse here, but the amount is right there. And I found as a regular foot surfer as I stand up, my foot would always drag over the leash and I'd end up standing on the leash cord. No, I'm not planning on doing any prone for them with this board, but it made sense on, there was one of the rider that had the same setup and he felt that the leash was dragging in the water.

So I think for racing, especially to have a lease dragging in the water, it just totally doesn't make sense. Yeah. So anyway, but okay so yeah, the two front shots. That way you, the back foot if you just had one center strap you tend to have both feet a little bit off to one rail, right?

So being able to offset your back foot more towards the opposite rail helps with keeping your weight center too. And that's one of the reasons why you don't use the back foot strap to ensure it? Yes, because I would stand on it. And I also found too that sometimes when I would do attack, as I switched my feet, I found myself stepping on the far side of the board to keep it from rolling over from scissoring.

And the other reason as I did, I was using a back strap for awhile and I fell and tweaked my ankle. Didn't injured myself, but tweaked it enough that I thought I'm taking that strap off. And then, it also helps sometimes moving your back foot forward or backwards, depending on how fast you're going or trying to get up and light when and things like that.

Right now. 50, wait a little bit on this board. I don't have the foot straps. Doesn't show the bootstraps here, but the foot straps I have, they're longer foot straps. They're not the standard eight inch they're about 12 or 14 inches on. I placed the inserts further apart so that I could slide my foot forward in when I was going real fast to compensate for the additional lift by the foil and then move it back when I was going to Winward or so I really liked the ability to be able to move my foot four and a half still in the strap.

And I've taken some other videos. I've got a lot of different camera mounts. And in fact, let me pull up one of those camera mounts. Okay. But yeah, actually I did want to ask you about the foil as well. So I noticed you had that a few shots of the foil there too, but yeah, so don't turn off the grease screen sharing yet, but yeah, this particular clip here it doesn't really well, lot of times I'll do different camera angles and trying to capture one thing. And I realize, oh, this is a really good example of where the foot is, or I didn't realize the wing was this way. Or when I put the camera on the front of the board, it really shows my front foot, my toes curling up and down not so much in this video, but I didn't realize how much I was using the front strap to manipulate the board or leverage.

Yeah. I find that, yeah, having footsteps just allows you to turn much harder to you just feel more connected to the board. So you get, you're able to like crank Carter turns that you have that those foot straps, right? Yes. And I did do some video recently, then the board didn't have foot straps and it was a performance oriented board, but I just didn't put the foot straps on there.

And I found that I couldn't do the tax and the jibes as aggressively without the foot strap. So I do definitely pull with my front foot to pull the board around or leverage it this way or so, yeah. Okay. So let's talk about the foil, cause I think maybe the foil might be one of the most important parts of the equipment and like those Mike's labs foil, I know that like Johnny Heineken and San Francisco has been winning a lot of the races there with those foils too.

And it just seems like he's going faster than everyone else. And so anyway, talk a little. Yeah. Mike has been making the carbon foils for the kite racers for quite a while. He's been making foils and more recently for, he's got a reputation of making the fastest foils, particularly in the kite race and fleet.

Now I think he's winging himself and he's made foils for Wayne's specifically for winning. And this is one of them. It's the bullet series. I believe he makes an 1100 and 800 and a 600 and this is the 600. And let me see if I can get a little bit better angle of it on. So it's actually the smallest foil and is in this series.

Yeah. Yes, he does have a smaller foil for kite racing, but it has a shorter fuselage and he's also got a tiny little race foil on, I think it's a four, 10 tow foil. And apparently I think one of the kite racers clocked 46 knots on it. Wow. Yeah, I don't want, I don't want to go that fast. So this the 600 sizes at square centimeters, like projected surface area or something like that, or this is a full-on top performance race, foil.

It's not something that, the average person. Is going to use, it's very sharp edges on it. It's pointy and it's delicate, you bumped the bottom and it you don't want it. You don't want to scratch it, not just because it's expensive, but because the performance of it on, I used the Gulf soils and they're tough.

They're tough on, I scraped the bottom all the time coming in, hitting a rock right in the sand. Sorry. I I just find it to describe it a little bit. For those listening to the podcast sites, it looks like it has a really thin front wing pretty flat with a little curve the tip slightly curved down or straightened out basically with those dihedral man.

And everything's full carbon was the extended finish. And then we'll take it as a really long mass to it. Is that like a hundred centimeters? Something like that? Or how long is it mess? This one is a 96. Okay. They make a 1 0 2 and I believe an 80 something. I tried the 1 0 2 and I could see the advantage of using it on a coast run where you're blistering down wind and tall chop.

You want to be able to clear the wave tops, but still keep your foil under water and going to Winward. I could really lean over, but going just a little bit longer, there was loo tiny bit of wobble in it compared to the 96. And and it, with the total box, it just is really tight. So I think this is the right length mass for me on it is.

It is a little bit long for low tide. It cannot low tide is off limits. Medium, medium tide is okay. And you know you learn where the spots are, where you can go and where you can't. But the medium size is perfect for me. And the leading edge, she slosh and trailing edge is all one piece, which I think is one reason why it's so stiff and so tight.

So the only place that comes apart is like great, right at the the joint between the mass and the fuselage. And then this is all one. This is all one piece construction, all one piece construction. There's two parts. There's the mask and the rest of it. And that you can adjust the pitch and the stabilizer.

He has a system pretty clever. You put a spacer. I used a little nylon while. And you put that spacer in there. And then as you screw the three bolts down tight to the mast, it flexes the fuselage just ever. So a little bit, and that changes the pitch in the back, Wayne. A bigger spacer flexes more and gives it less pitch where it melts stabilizers more pitch.

Interesting. No. So to get us set up like that, like how did you have to like special order and how long does it take and about how much does it cost? If somebody wanted to order one on it? When I originally placed my order on, it was a 12 week wait and they took my order with no deposit. And they said when it was ready, they would send for the check.

And I told them that I was planning on racing in the store. And if I could get it, a week beforehand on that'd be great and we'll, they expedited it, they got it out to me early enough that I could train on it. And but I believe it's a 12 week waiting list, but I also know that they can, you can wait longer on, it was about $3,500 for the whole setup.

That is the foil. I believe that included shipping. And at this point I'm putting it away until I do more testing with Ken and racing with Ken, trying to keep up with Ken winter is pretty tough. He also has a mic slab 800. And that's really why I got this 600 was so that I could keep up with him trying to test the wins.

And of course it's a great race swing, but when I'm pre-writing and teaching I'm using the Gulf war. So I you guys obviously don't want to scrape over the reflux that on low tide or whatever. So like you said, it's Tragile and you don't want to scratch it and ruin the performance. So it makes sense.

But would you say that was one of the, your secret ingredients to winning the race part of it? Yes, for sure. The foil, but also the board. I actually had some great wings to the D labs. And so actually something I wanted to mention too, like for the boards cause, cause it's such a thin profile and I'm assuming that it takes a as a pretty high takeoff speed.

Like you can't like some of the big thick foils you can pop up at pretty low speeds, but this one looks like it would take a little bit higher speeds to pop up on foil. Surprisingly it, it pops right up. Now some of it's, some of it's my experience, but it it was later. During the regatta.

And there are a couple of times when I, during the weekend that I had to pump pretty hard, flapping the wing and pumping the board to get up. But the majority of the time, I it's basically sheet in and go combination of the foil. There's so little drag. It reaches take-off speed very quickly. And that's the total box.

And what about the star speed? Does it like, do you do you ever have a problem, like stalling with it stalling the foil or not really? Not really. That last video that I posted on gliding on foil, pretty much everything I'm riding this foil. It has a very nice glide to it. Sure.

Surprisingly and I was thinking. On the windiest days that I might be able to do a set foil run with this setup. That there's almost enough volume. There is enough volume to float me, to stand still whether or not I could paddle it fast enough with a paddle to get up on foil on. And I've been out outside the reef in the rollers, luffing the wing and gliding for quite a ways on a couple hundred yards and thinking I could do this with a paddle, but once it does slow down, it's pretty tough to get the speed back up again, pumping it with your legs, but I'm pretty certain that 800 would work on a coaster.

So yeah, the dominant paddling is something else I wanted to ask you about too, but let's finish the equipment thing here. Okay. So let's talk a little bit about the wings, the important importance of the wings. We talked a little bit about the board the foot straps, the foil. Obviously the wing is other thing that's really important having the right size wing and then the, and the right profile and shape and all that kind of stuff for upwind downwind.

And talk a little bit about that. Like what you found that is works best for you. With the D labs are pretty tough to beat on, you probably know, or maybe for the people that don't know Ken winner lives across the street, the designer for duotone, he's one of the designers here.

There's a team in Europe that, that works with them as well, but he's the main guy. And I'll go out and race with him. And every now and then I'll throw out my ideas about, what to do. And he quickly shoots them down. So he's really, he does everything on, I'm just a benchmark out there racing with him, but he wants to raise up wind and then turn around and race down land.

And then we swap wings and do it again. And there's another guy that runs with us regularly. Peter slate. He is he's national slalom champion in wind surfing. So he's got some experience in racing and he's the three of us go out there and beat up on each other. But Ken really puts a lot of emphasis on the speed of the wing up wind.

And really when you think about it, if you have a wing that goes fast and is stable, both upwind and downwind, it's going to work on, in every aspect. Being able to get the speed to jump, being able to get on foil quickly on. So he's got all these different parameters and it's amazing to me we'll go out and do a number of runs and he'll decide right away.

Oh, this one needs more, it needs more of this or that. So what determines the up wind speed of a wing, I guess the drag, the depth, the approach as a cider profile, or or more attention, or what are the things that make it work better on up, going up when the stiffness of the frame on the canopy tension, the draft position on the amount of twists or leech tension, all those things on, that's really his wheelhouse.

I don't really try to design or pretend to be a. I think the draft position is really important because if it travels backwards, then it ruins the upwind performance rate. If the draft flexes too much or moves back too much, then that'll ruin the forward propulsion, right?

Yes. Yes. And when we get, he'll get a new wing and it looks really good and we'll go out and test it. And sometimes it's amazing. And then there's a clear, cut difference that it's better or worse. Other times they're very similar, but he seems to know exactly what changes to make.

And the, again yeah, I've been trying to get Ken to come on this show for for over a year. And he's always too busy designing new wings and kites. But he said maybe check back with him and at the end of July. So I'm going to keep trying, I'm going to keep trying to get him on the show.

He's a little bit, he doesn't want to be in the limelight either, so it's very interesting. Definitely trying to get him on the show and then, they just for those who haven't watched, the first interview that we did I just want to do a little recap that you basically grew up in Kailua.

Like I think ki peak Cabrina was one of your neighbors. You learned to win wind surf at a young age and then moved to Mali, started your lesson business. Now, and our teaching, the whinging but w the way he got into wing foiling was basically you were doing downwind, foil, standup, foil, downwinders with mark, Robert Horace and Ken winner.

And then Ken was kinda having a hard time getting up on the foil. So he basically designed this wing to try and you were kinda making fun of him for about it, but then you saw at some point he saw it and you said, it looked like poetry in motion, and you have to try it as well.

Yeah. Yes, that, that image of him coming down, the swells is burned into my brain. That was the turning point. It's okay, I got to try this. And because up until that point, we were set foiling down the coast and we were waiting for Ken to catch up. And in this case, we were sitting there waiting for him to catch up and he came down the swell.

It was just a beautiful thing. So that was when I made the decision to try it. And at that point I think flash Boston had made his own way out of spars. And he went out and did a run on the sup board out and back, got some video and then the wing fell apart. And so the story goes and he never put it back together.

It was a novelty thing, but, and Ken saw that and he said, okay, I'm going to make a wing and try it. So slash Austin was the pioneer, but then can actually develop the first inflatable wing kind of thing. The homework. Yeah. Yeah. And it wasn't so much that I was making fun of him.

It was more of my scratching, my head, what is he doing? But yeah, he's, I think he can be now there's one other guy, Tony Legos that I believe did an inflatable wing. And I think there might be some video of him out there on foil, but he was ahead of his time. It didn't catch on. Okay. Okay.

So basically what I wanted to ask you is I, lately I've been listening because that's how I got into wing filing twos. Like we were doing downwind standup foiling, and like you're on a wall with the wind is not that good usually. So we were struggling with that, trying to like mediocre conditions is so hard to get up on flow and stay up on foil.

So when the wings came out, that was just like, oh, this is so much easier, and more fun because you're always flailing. You don't have to struggle to get back up. And once you come off the foil, but Lately I've been listening to the James Casey podcast. He has like a really good podcast. Now about downwind.

Foiling is really enthusiastic about it, trying to get people into downwind foiling. And I talked to mark Rapa horse in the interview and he said, that's still his biggest passion, even though he doesn't get to do it as much anymore. But I wanted to ask you, do you still do downwind, standup foiling, or did you give up on that since you started winging?

I gave up on it since I started winging and not, I did a run with mark wrap horse and we did it late in the evening. It was really rough and he got ahead of me and I tried really hard to stay with him. And the next morning I, my back hurt so bad. I couldn't walk. So I laid off from it.

But now there's some new boards that are coming out. Dave Kalama he's calls it the Barracuda. That's quite a bit narrower and longer. And it looks like it's relatively easy to get up on foil. And since I laid off the down winning the foils have improved quite a bit and I think they're easier and faster.

So I'm thinking, yes. I want to try it again on, but at the moment I'm still wrapped up in winging. So yeah. Now I'm exactly the same way I got, I stopped doing it once I got into winging, but now I'm going to getting curious and hearing about the new equipment that makes it a little bit easier, like to compare it to what we're using.

Early on, I think might be worth another try on a good day though. I wouldn't want to go out in mediocre conditions if it's the waves or the wind smells nice and clean and easy to get up on them. I definitely going to try it again, but kinda got out of it too, but yeah. Okay. Just a few more things.

It's been our gosh, it's almost two hours already, but we didn't want to ask you, like in one of your videos, you mentioned rotator cuff pain that you had, like in your shoulders, and that's why you liked to practice the movements before you do it on the water to avoid hurting yourself and so on, which I think makes a lot of sense.

And I can relate to that, to add some rotator cuff issues, mostly from Santa paddling doing like the molcajete race and training a lot and stuff like that kind of insane, like my shoulder. So I had to do, I was actually had really bad pain for two years and I had to do physical therapy and stuff like that.

And I found some good exercise that worked really well. So whenever I have a flare up, I do more of those exercises and that really helps. But but yeah, I just kinda wanted to hear your side of it. Like what kind of pain you have and how you deal with it and what you do.

Fortunately my shoulders have healed up and I don't have the shoulder pain that I was having. I, I was just using Advil and ice on and that would tend to bother me at night in my sleep. And so I seen it in Advil and then once I was stronger, I did some, simple exercises with dumbbells, these and that seemed to, to help lightweight dumbbells on.

So fortunately I have not had any trouble lately, but winging is something that, that it might restrict people that have shoulder problems, that it might be a problem to do that. But the new wings are so much lighter and stiffer. They don't muscle you around like the older ones. So maybe that's an impressive.

Yeah, but yeah, I think it's definitely a good idea to practice the movements on the beach first, just to make sure that you don't get yanked around by the wind when you know, like no unexpected motion or throwing you back, like pulling them shoulder backwards or whatever, lift up, pulling. Those are the things that bothered my shoulder.

And I found there's a little exercise I do on the beach where I bring the wing up overhead and then back down, up overhead. And even behind me and back down. And I found that has really improved my tax. Just doing that little warm up on the beach. When I go out in the water, I feel more confident doing the tax.

Yeah. And I think too I was watching on your patron child that when about tacking 2 0 1, I think you called it, but just like when you bring your wing over your head, just to give the clue little push. It kind of ticks over and lands in the right place to accelerate out of the attack.

That's a super important thing to, to learn how to do before, before you try to do those tasks, especially on your heel side, right? Yeah. But I'm also, just regarding aging well and staying healthy and so on. Do you have any good tips? I'm almost 55 now, so I'm not that far behind you.

And I find, as I get older it's easy, obviously get injured, easier nutritionist super important so do you have any kind of tips or things you do that, that help you avoid inflammation or like nutrition, anything like that? I try to stay hydrate.

I do every now and then maybe once or twice a month, I'll take Advil or Motrin, if I've had a long day on, but I think just staying active, I started water sports when I was 12 years old and I told my wife that I'd been practicing for this sport since I was 12. And really I've my whole life.

I've been fortunate enough to spend in and around the water surfing, wind, surfing, sailing, kite, surfing, paddling, I did them all Chi to Oahu a number of times with a teammate then set foiling and now wing foiling. Now it just and I probably put in four days a week wing foiling Fortunate here on Maui that we have wind virtually every day.

And you can go just about any time you want, but just getting out on the water and staying active. And I'm a little older, so I am cautious to avoid things that I might get injured like jumping. And I try not to overdo it on my sessions, and an hour or two, I use a harness so I can stay out longer on.

And with the harness, I'm not putting the load on my shoulders going to Winward on, but yeah, just trying to stay active, I'm winging. Foiling has kept me young. It's gotten me back in the water. I was kinda over, I was over wind surfing. I was over kite surfing on the prone paddling or the sub paddling was hurting my lower back.

That, that motion. I was just grinding my spine and I but wing foiling, it's an other than the initial stages of climbing on the board, fallen off, climbing on the board. Once you get past that point, there's very little pressure in your hands. And because the foil is above the chop or the board is above the chop, it's like powder snow.

So there's not a whole lot of pressure. And there's people out there that say, oh, you don't need a harness. There's no pressure. And that's true, unless you're racing Ken winter up, when, you need that power to, to drive up wind. But it's just really forgiving easy on the body.

And I hope that I know I have a number of patrons and students that are over 70 that are foiling and being 60. They're an inspiration to me that I think I can keep doing this for another 10 years. Barring any injuries. I think it's, I agree. Yeah. Yeah. It's like a fountain of youth and it's great to see so many different age groups doing it too.

And like you said, the initial learning curve is a little bit can be a little bit dangerous, especially for older people, you have to be really careful not to injure yourself in the beginning, I think. But once you get it down, it's really yeah, like you said, very low impact and not really that hard on your body.

So it's something I think I can keep doing for quite a while. I'm hoping. Yeah. Yeah. Good. Excellent. Anything else that you wanted to talk about? Let me see here. So many, actually we never can you show us your new camera amount? I did. I did want to get back around to that. So you have this camera Mount that months on your plate.

Underneath the plate Mont of the foil. And then it sticks out behind the back of the board. So this, I made this plate, actually. I had a local machine shop welded up in town on and displayed sandwiches between the foil and the board on the track mounts with the Tuttle box, I had to cut this groove to get it to fit the Tuttle.

And so it hangs off the back of the board. And then at the other end, I have a GoPro Mount on it with a little floaty, just in case it comes off. I also have the gro GoPro floaty on there. So if I lose the camera and I've lost a few that's one Mount. So that's how you get that follow cam look like.

It looks like there's a camera falling, like a drone coming in right behind you kind of thing. That's really cool. Yeah. Yeah. That's this action right here. This clip here on and I can aim the camera up to get the hand work. I can Mount it taller on. So it is, and you said you tried the go at the GoPro max.

Like the GoPro max 360. That's the one I've been using a lot. It's like the as I get 360 lens, but then it takes a lot of work to edit it afterwards. And you said you don't really like using this one that much. So you use just a regular GoPro eight or nine? Yeah. This was the max and I found that it is difficult to use the 360.

And I've found that generally trying to capture things that the regular hero amount or just using one side seems to work. The level horizon is really cool. It keeps the horizon level as the board banks right on. I also have a solo shot camera and this is. You wear this satellite tracker on your body and then the camera will track you Zuni and zoom out.

And when this works, it's exceptional, I can shoot 120 frames a second. So it gets slow motion, but so often it thinks I'm over there and it's looking the wrong way. It misses the shot. Yeah. And I had a love, hate relationship with that thing. Cause yeah, like half the time it would work great. In the other half of the time, it was like nothing.

All it, the whole session I would get was just like walk water without me in it. Like where I'm just out of the frame or something like that. I got lots of that. I've got lots of that footage, but when it does work, it's exceptional that I have irregular Sony 4k. I just got this recently, but I need someone to film and my wife has been doing that.

I also have the drone.

It's a Maverick too. Yeah, this is really good, but because so many of the sailing spots are near the airport. I can't fly this. Oh yeah. And then yeah, that's kinda my camera gear. But you said mostly you use a, this irregular GoPro like a GoPro hero and eight or nine with the horizon leveling and yes, I also have the nine with the hydrophobic lens, which is really good.

So many of my shots are ruined because the hydrophobic lens or the non hydrophobic lens, particularly that the max, when water gets on it, it ruins the shot. So interesting. So that's a good one on the camera gear. So how often do you come out with the new video? Do you try to do it on a regular schedule or is there like a like a certain I try to put one out once a month and I'm gonna pull my patrons to see what they'd like to see next.

I have a few ideas, but I try and get ideas from them. And then when I'm out teaching, when I see a particular pattern where a number of people are having trouble with a certain issue, then I'll try and capture that and try and solve that problem. Okay. Okay. So as the fastest person on Maui, what are some tips for going fast on a wing for aboard board?

I'm not the fastest, I'm just joking, but as the winner of the race anyway first one on last one off first one on the wall. Last one off the water. You got to put your time in, you're not going to get good thinking about it, sitting on the beach.

So that's the biggest tip is just spending a lot of time practicing it for sure. Time out there, you can buy speed, you can buy speed. You can buy the foil, you can buy the board, you can buy the wing, all of that, but you also have to know how to use it. So it just takes some time.

Yeah. And that part is the, I think the more important part than the equipment, I the equipment is super important, especially at the very high level. I think where a little bit can make a difference. But I think for the average person, that's just about yeah. The technique and practicing it and to get faster, yeah.

I think that's where you make them. That makes a bigger difference than getting the best and most expensive gear. Yeah, the time for the racing, I practiced every aspect except for the start. There was no really way to practice the start, but there's a few buoys anchored here and there up and down the coast.

And I practice doing a lot of turns around those buoys. I practice sailing close, reach, broad, reach down, wind up, wind on all trying to go as fast as I can. And then of course, when I'm sailing with Ken and Peter it's a race up wind and they regularly punish me. So that's good. It's good to have training partners that are faster than you, right?

That's another good tip. We take turns beating up on each other though. I sometimes kick their ass. It's vice versa. And then in that case where you're all pretty similar, is that I guess that's where the small differences in the equipment they're really noticeable, right? Yes. Yeah. Yeah. It's good to have someone to train with, and you can adjust this and adjust that and try this and try that and share ideas.

And and you said Ken winter has the one-sided so using the 600 bullet and he's using the 800 is that because he's a little bit heavier than you? Or what, why is that one working better for him? He is a little heavier but I let him try this setup that the green board with the foil recently, and he was blistering fast.

And in short order he got his own 600. So he shares that 600 with his wife. Okay. And you can get, I guess if you're buying a different foil size, you have to get that whole one-piece construction, front wing, fuselage, and tailing together. You can mix and match. I believe you can buy separate components. You can buy the smaller, bigger size foil set up. Yeah. But again I really only recommend it for, the high end racer. You got me thinking about it, but man, mostly I'm into doing more like freestyle and going out in the waves and all that cause yeah, the racing can be such an arms race, next year that someone else is going to come out with something a little bit faster than everybody buys that and stuff like that.

And if you don't have it, then you don't really have a chance to win. So that's frustrating.

Yes, I have a garage full of bones. Yeah. But it's definitely fun if he come out on top. It's a good feeling. Yeah. But at this point I'm passing the Baton. I'm going to watch now on I highly encourage you to defend your title of next year, but you already made your decision, but oh, I'll probably be out there, but I'm not gonna put any pressure on myself.

Yeah. It seems like after the Molokai race, I always tell myself I'm not going to do that again. It's so masochistic, but then the next year I'm like, okay, I guess I'm going to start training again. It's a love, hate thing too.

Anyway. Yeah, I really appreciate your time coming on again and a super long conversation. Appreciate it. And keep going, and keep inspiring so many people. I think it's awesome. What you do on Patriots. I highly encourage everyone to join that and get all your good tips in. And of course also you have a great YouTube channel, good videos on YouTube as well.

Thank you. Yeah, but it seems like on the patron channel is where you really post your the premium content. And the whole idea there is I'm trying to teach people as if they were having a lesson with me in person, I'm trying to get it across. And it's pretty challenging to do that on the video, medium, trying to teach a feeling or an experience, but getting better at it.

My editing skills are improving and working on. Yeah, definitely. Yeah. Congratulations on that. And your success there and on winning that race and so on, it sounds like you're doing great. And I'm probably gonna hit you up again next year. Talk talks. What's new next year. All right. All right.

Thank you, Robert. So keep going. Yeah, my pleasure. Thanks. All right. Take care. Hold on. See on the water. Yeah. Okay. There's some little bonus material. Like we, we kept talking a little bit after I stopped recording and now I'm still ask some more prompts to show us. So one thing that's like your trademark is like the hat you're wearing.

So tell us what you're using and how. This is a chilly endurable pat. It's a sailor's hat and I got really badly sunburned down in Australia and started wearing a hat then and came home and found the Tilly it's guaranteed forever. When they wear out, they'll send you a replacement and this one's got some wear on it.

This is my new one, my old one here. This has got about 10 years of use on it. And this is, I wear this only in the water. It doesn't go through the wash. This is a Testament to the amount of time that I've put in. And then as a pretty stiff brim is that I would like to breath. It comes stiff pretty much, but then, you ducked your head and the salt splashes on it, salt, water, it dries out and it's like starch.

So it gets real stiff after a while. As long as they don't completely soak it, which doesn't happen too often. I've been using the shelter hats, which are good too damn that kind of this dish, that doesn't collapse easily. And that's important when it's windy, especially something that doesn't slop down on your face or?

Yes. So this one blocks the spray, it blocks the sun and I've had I've had some Bazell cell cut out of my face a couple of times already. So wear your sunscreen, wear the protective gear, wear hat. Yeah. Any other prompts? I think that's it, but yeah, a hundred percent on the sun, like sun protection.

Oh, first place. So yeah, I have to see a dermatologist every four months now. And every time she finds him, like pre-cancerous stuff and either remove it or use the cream stuff. And it's just frustrating. And that's from the spending too much time in the sun when I was young and not protecting myself enough.

Yes. So for all those young people watching out there wear your sunscreen or you're going to pay later yeah. And wear long sleeves and protect yourself down in the sun. All right. Thanks for sticking around. I really appreciate you listening all the way to the end. Those of you are still listening. You're the ones that I'm making this show for.

It's for the hardcore enthusiasts that can't get enough information. I want to say a special thank you to our customer. Blue planet customers. Like you make it possible for us to produce these shows for free. All our content is available for free. So by supporting blue planet and buying our products, you support shows like this.

So thanks again for listening. And the next show is going to be with Adrian Roper from access foils. We're going to talk soon. Ag just got a new foil set up from him. I'm super excited to test it out and talk to him about the latest equipment and technology in foil design. So I hope you can listen to that interview as well.

Thanks for sticking around once again. See you on the water Aloha.