In this episode of the Just Schools Podcast, Jon Eckert interviews Dr. Matthew Lee, research professor at Baylor University and co-leader of the Global Flourishing Study—a longitudinal project spanning 22 countries and nearly 200,000 people. They discuss what it means to flourish as whole human beings and how education can support not only academic success but spiritual, emotional, and relational well-being.
Dr. Lee shares insights on how flourishing is not just about individual happiness or wellness, but about contributing to the greater good—what he describes as "ecosystem-wide flourishing." He and Eckert explore how love, hospitality, and compassion can shape the culture of schools, drawing from research and real-world examples, including organizations like Barry-Wehmiller that center care and community in their leadership.
The Just Schools Podcast is brought to you by the Baylor Center for School Leadership.
Be encouraged.
Mentioned:
Unreasonable Hospitality by Will Guidara
Christian Caregiving: A Way of Life by Kenneth Haugk
Transcript:
Jon Eckert:
All right. Today we get to welcome a good friend and colleague at Baylor University. So Matt Lee is here with us today, and his work all revolves around flourishing, which is the ultimate goal of all education and one of the most intrinsically human things that we think about. So Matt, if you just give us a quick intro as to why you're at Baylor and kind of the 30,000-foot view of what you do here at Baylor.
Matt Lee:
Well, thanks, Jon. I'm delighted to be here at Baylor, and I would say part of the reason that I'm here is that the Global Flourishing Study is a joint project of Baylor and Harvard, and this is a five year, 22 country survey to understand the forces that affect flourishing for about 200,000 people globally. And we've got nationally representative samples in each of these countries. So we're almost able to generalize to all humanity, which is unusual for a study. And to have this longitudinal approach enables us to follow up over time, look at changes. We've got the time ordering nailed down, we've got some statistical techniques to address robustness. We're almost able to make causal claims that generalize to all humanity. So that was one of the reasons.
The other thing is I just really appreciate Baylor's mission and ability to combine really rigorous research with a Christian commitment. And so I think that is a special strength of Baylor University, not to go into a commercial for Baylor right now.
Jon Eckert:
Oh no, we're all for that. But it's one of the reasons why our work overlaps, because we work with education leaders in over 45 countries and all 50 states and the stated goal of education since Aristotle has been for the flourishing of human beings. And so there's obviously a school component of this. You're looking at all of humanity. Again, that's not probably something I'll ever be able to say as a researcher that I've able to generalize findings to all humanity.
But I'm curious to hear how you all think about words like flourishing in love and operationalize those for educators. What does that look like in whatever school you're called to? Obviously, we're here at Baylor and we can have a faith component to what undergirds everything we do, but a lot of our educators that we serve are in public schools, and there's secular humanism there, and there's all different kinds of kids with all different kinds of backgrounds. So what does flourishing and love look like universally, in the way you would define it?
Matt Lee:
Well, I would frame it as a dialogue. And so we are contributing to a dialogue. And I remember there was a chaplain at Harvard who used to just observe that Harvard tends to treat students as though they are just a brain on a stick or maybe a neocortex on a stick. And of course, there's more to human beings than that.
And so when we think about flourishing, we think about multiple domains. We're flourishing in terms of our physical health, we're flourishing in terms of our spiritual health, our emotional health. And so there's all of these different domains at the individual level, but it's sort of meaningless in a sense if we're not contributing to the greater good.
And for most people, particularly in the United States, the greater good is going to be largely defined in terms of a sacred narrative. So if we're not honoring that need to serve the greater good in terms of a sacred narrative, then we are dehumanizing people by definition. And so if we care about the inherent dignity, the infinite value of every person, that we need to attend to all of the domains of flourishing across levels. So flourishing is different than well-being and happiness and wellness and some of these other constructs because it really is not just about the person, it's about the person in their context. And their context might include a sacred context.
Their context certainly would include a political and economic context. It's knowing we have the skills in order to make a meaningful difference in this person's life. We're not trying to fix anything. We know that that doesn't necessarily work, but we can be present with loving awareness in a way that is itself healing, and then we can get people the help that they need if we can't provide it. But it's not one person's responsibility to do that.
So oftentimes when we think of love or compassion, we think of one-on-one, but this is actually something that you find at the level of groups. And Brian Wellinghoff, my co-author on the one article about Barry-Wehmiller, he's a senior director at Barry-Wehmiller. He said in the article, what we've found over these couple of decades is that when love is present, it promotes the conditions that are required for flourishing.
It's not just that love is present at the level of one-on-one interactions, it's that it's now that love is part of the culture. Love is part of the context, and that enables everything that they do. And they help encourage that by promoting skills like listening and the practice of gratitude and regularly celebrating people, not just employee of the month where you get a nice parking spot and everyone hates you for the month or whatever. But like a culture of celebration where it actually is joyful to celebrate the people that you care about and you want to do that and you appreciate it when they do it for you. And you know it's going to happen because you can see your love, make a difference on a daily basis. You know that you're contributing, you know that you're engaged.
And I remember asking Bob Chapman, again, the CEO of that company, "What do you do about free riders?" When I went to Harvard, I thought, "I'll never see any free riders," and there's free riders everywhere, and how do you do that? And so he said, "Well, we want everyone to get on the bus, but they're not necessarily going to get on at the same stop, but we have faith and we're committed that eventually everyone's going to get on the bus."
So there's some mercy and there's some grace. And then there's the tough conversation. There's the tough love. It's not just the warm hug, it's the powerful love that says, "Look, I'm going to speak truthfully to you about your contribution as a co-creator of this culture," he calls it a culture of caring, but I think we could also call it a culture of love and compassion.
Jon Eckert:
So couple of things that came to mind when you were talking about that. I like the term sacred hospitality, but the book Unreasonable Hospitality by Will Guidara came out just a few years ago. He ran Eleven Madison, and they became the best restaurant in the world based on not their service, but on their hospitality. And he differentiates service from hospitality. And it's absolutely a culture that gets created. It can't just be one person. It's how the whole team views the experience they're creating for diners. And it's a remarkable book that it's hard to replicate in schools because that is an elite experience with lots of money behind it, and public schools aren't functioning in that world. But how do we have that kind of an attitude about how do we see whole human beings and reach out in a hospitable way, not just in a service way? So I wonder if you have any... Are you familiar with Unreasonable Hospitality at all?
Matt Lee:
I've not read it, no.
Jon Eckert:
Okay. But does that align with sacred hospitality as you're considering it?
Matt Lee:
Well, one conceptual resource that I found helpful is from a book called Christian Caregiving, and this is written by the founder of the Stephen Ministries. This is the laypeople in a congregation who provide care to others in the congregation. They're not trained as psychologists or counselors, but they've been given a set of skills and they know their boundaries. That's the most important skill is knowing what's yours and what's for a professional and what's for God. And so when you think about the critical distinction in that book, it's between servitude and servanthood.
And so when we are living into our vocation, that's servanthood. And when we are forced to do something that we wouldn't want to do in a way we wouldn't want to do it, then we're talking about servitude. And so when we imagine education and we think about a system that is perfectly designed to get the result that it gets, what is our system getting? It's perfectly designed to get disengagement. That's what we see from the Gallup data. So as you progress through your journey, you start out highly engaged in kindergarten, and then you're less engaged in middle school, less engaged in high school, and it just continues. It's a nice linear downward trend.
Jon Eckert:
That's not a nice trend, Matt.
Matt Lee:
Well, it's not nice, but from a research standpoint-
Jon Eckert:
It's clean.
Matt Lee:
It's very clean. So what are we doing systematically there? Well, we start out in kindergarten, we're sitting in a circle with our friends holding hands, finger painting the alphabet, singing songs. The creative arts are infused into this container of friendship. And we're learning our core material in that kind of container. And then we systematically start pulling all that stuff out. No more recess, take art maybe once in four years in high school.
Jon Eckert:
Elementary school, on average now, get 27 minutes of recess a day in the United States.
Matt Lee:
Oh, so we're-
Jon Eckert:
It's devastating.
Matt Lee:
We're doing it even younger than when I was a kid.
Jon Eckert:
Yes. Yeah.
Matt Lee:
I started doing this UN class called Love and Action at the University of Akron, and I said, "Rather than reading about this, why don't we practice it and then come back in a community of friends and share what are we learning?" And it just felt more like kindergarten to me. Let's sit in a circle and let's sing some songs about what we're learning. And I remember saying, "Well, do we even need exams at some point in these UN classes? Maybe there's a different way to be in relationship where we don't need the exams." And some of my colleagues would say, "Well, that's dangerous. You're going to have all these free riders." I had so few free riders in that context, and it's sort of like Barry-Wehmiller company as well. There's so few free riders because you empower people to be what they were created to be.
Jon Eckert:
Seeing data coming out on what leads to flourishing and mental health and what doesn't. But we're always looking for the things, what's working. I don't have time to spend a lot of time on the things that aren't working. I do like Bob Chapman's belief that everybody will eventually get on the bus. I don't believe that is true. I believe some people need to find another bus. But I think eventually you need to get the people that need to be on the bus, on the bus, and they'll get there. And they may choose there's another bus route that's better for them, and that will lead more to their flourishing. And that's great. But with 12,000 people in that company, that's not going to be 12,000 people that are on the right bus all the time.
Matt Lee:
Well, and I think maybe it's not everyone, but you go after the lost sheep.
Jon Eckert:
That's right. Yeah, you do. You do. That is fair. That's fair. And teachers definitely do that. And you can run yourself ragged. This is the last part of the time, and this is always the hardest part for me. I would be terrible at this, but you have four questions, four sentences. So one sentence for each one. So in all of your flourishing work that you've done, what is the most obvious finding that you're like, "That's kind of a duh, we all knew that and now we have empirical evidence that says that's true."
Matt Lee:
Better to give than receive.
Jon Eckert:
Okay. Well, there you go. Some ancient wisdom. All right, second. What's the most surprising finding that really jumped out? Like, "Oh, didn't see that coming"?
Matt Lee:
Yeah, I don't know that it was really surprising. It was just surprising to see it so consistently that groups that so obviously prioritize financial material stability, have the lowest flourishing on all the other domains. At the country level, at the group level, even within particular organizations. So we find in a paper that I've just... This is more than one sentence, but I'll give you an example.
Jon Eckert:
That's all right.
Matt Lee:
So I'm co-leading a paper on showing love and care to another person, and this is using the global flourishing study data. We find a fairly strong negative correlation with GDP. Countries that have higher GDP have people who show lower levels of love and care.
Jon Eckert:
Wow, okay. And I'm not-
Matt Lee:
So I'm not totally surprised by that, but it's still kind of shocking to see it so reliably surfacing in all of this work.
Jon Eckert:
I'll keep this short, but my daughters went down to the Dominican Republic to do some work there with a lot of high school and college students this summer. And they had an amazing experience because of the joy of the people that they were with in the Dominican Republic. And so the joy that they exuded through... Some of them had very little, but the joy was there and it made a fundamental difference I think will mark my daughters for the rest of their lives because they recognize, "Oh, really, joy is not tied to what we have."
Matt Lee:
Yeah. I had a group from Spain consult me a couple of years ago, "We're going to this impoverished country and we're going to help them with their flourishing." And I said, "Oh, really? You might find that they help you with your flourishing."
Jon Eckert:
100%, right. So the last two questions. What's the biggest challenge you see globally or in the US, take your pick, that's inhibiting flourishing right now?
Matt Lee:
Yeah. I think that the way we understand flourishing or love or leadership is really just a small part of what those words represent. And so I think if we understood flourishing as ecosystem-wide flourishing, we would have the appropriate North Star. But if we keep doing it as, or understanding it as, a kind of subjective experience of wellbeing for an individual, I think we'll never get out of the crab bucket.
Jon Eckert:
That's good. And then what's your biggest hope for flourishing, globally or in the US?
Matt Lee:
My biggest hope would be that we would learn from the positive outliers who are already doing it everywhere in the world. And I think I remember some years ago... So I'm bad at one sentence.
Jon Eckert:
I know, I am too. This is a challenge.
Matt Lee:
I have to immediately support it with evidence.
Jon Eckert:
That's good.
Matt Lee:
So let me give you just one example of evidence. I was chair of the section on altruism, morality, and social solidarity of the American Sociological Associations. That's a lot to remember. But as part of my role as chair, I was also editing the newsletter, and I was approached by a member of the section who had done some research on concentration camps, Nazi Germany, and he found in his argument... I'll just cut to the chase. His argument was, most of the Holocaust museums focus on the narrative of victimhood. But what you saw in the camps was incredible heroism, incredible sharing under pain of death of your last crumbs and incredible, just inspiring altruism. The human spirit was soaring, even as the body was being destroyed by this evil regime. And so people who have never had their names in the history books have done incredible things. And Holocaust museums around the world could tell that story too. Not just the victim story and not to the exclusion of the victim story, but tell the story of empowerment.
Jon Eckert:
Wow. That's a great place to end. Thank you for taking the time, and thanks for the work you do, Matt.
Matt Lee:
Thank you.
