Rob Whittall wing foil interview- Wasp V2, Armstrong A+, Episode #5

Rob Whittall is co founder and head designer at Ozone and a partner at Armstrong.  He talks about his background the Wasp V2 design, the Armstrong A+ system, and how to live a good life, enjoy!

Interview transcript:

 Hi, it's Robert Stehlik with Blue Planet. Welcome to the show right here in my home office, in the garage. And I interview foil addicts, like myself.

 I wanna say a big thank you to our sponsors. This show is brought to you by people like you, Blue Planet customers who support our business and you know when our business does great, I can do fun stuff, get on the water and do interviews like this and share it with the world. So thank you so much to our customers for your support.

And I just wanted to mention to the wasp V2 wings we're talking about here in this video. Are available at blue planet or, they're on the way. So they're being shipped and we should have them within a few days after this show airs. And if you're just call our shop, we can take pre-orders or ship them out right away.

Were probably going to be one of the first dealers to actually have them in stock. I'm stoked about that. And of course the show is with Rob Whittall. He is the co-founder and head designer at Ozone. And he talks about the Wasp V2 design really gets into detail on that after we go over his background and so on.

And then after about 46 minutes, we start talking about the Armstrong A+ wing system. Or basically upgraded fuselage system. That's really interesting stuff too, that was just released by Armstrong. And then my favorite part was at the end when we just talk about life in general, the pandemic and you know how to live your best life.

And so thanks so much for being a great conversation partner, Rob, and I hope you enjoy this conversation as much as I did at home, or you can listen to it on as a podcast or watch it on YouTube either way. We do, I do have pictures and video in the, on YouTube, but listening to it as a podcast is another great way to listen to these super long interviews.

So thanks so much for welcome to the show, Rob widow. Great to have you. This is actually the first time I have a designer on the show is someone who actually designs the products that we love to use. Thanks. Thanks so much for joining us. Your w where are you right now? Thank you so much for that.

I'm currently in a regular New Zealand. Let's start a little bit just with your background. What, where did you grow up and how did you get into water sports? And, what's your business background and design background and all that. Just start from the very beginning and take your time code details and tell us a story.

Knows me, knows I like to talk. So you'll be you're good. So it all started actually with in my youth with hang-gliding. My father was a pioneer in the UK, in the hang-gliding city. And so we grew up with time gliding from the age of four and five onwards. I got my first hang glider flight with my father on his back sort of piggyback style when I was about five years old.

Those memories stuck in my head until I was 16 when I was actually allowed to go flying. And illegally the flying solo. In those days, the prerequisite was you have to be sick. So at 16 I'd shown a lot of interest in motorcycles, but my father steered me away from motorcycles and offered me handwriting lessons.

Instead if I would stay off the motorbikes I said, yes, went hang-gliding for my first lesson and just knew straight away that I'd found something pretty special. And from then on it just blossomed into a handline in Korea, I run around the world, competing hang-gliding ended up working for some factories in first I was just testing gliders to check that they'd come out of the factory to spec and, they flew straight and everything felt how they should feel.

Then I started tuning hang gliders and charming hand gliders and working with the sail makers. But then after a few years of that paradigm and came along, moved into paragliding because it seemed like a good thing to do anything that got me was attractive. So I was handwriting and paragliding together, and I had quite a successful competitive career in both those sports.

And it just everything kept pushing me towards the design. It wasn't something that I was prepared for. I was prepared for it because I've spent so many years already working with designers and working within the trimming and testing of these things. And one day the sort of the design became available and I sat down and Started to learn to to actually process these imaginary ideas into reality.

And it's been a lot of fun and giant.

So the 3d computer stuff you taught yourself or did you get any formal education in that kind of like engineering or design like that? It's all self-taught, it's, self-taught, I'm fortunate. I'm very lucky that the ozone program, for instance, is something that I've grown up with. So for me to use it, it's very natural because it's progressed from, very basic design program in the early days to what it is today.

And because I've grown with that I can use it very quite effectively. Some of the other cap programs, obviously that. Complicated and written by other people and such a solid works in these kind of things. I can't use them, but nothing with nothing like the the knowledge, because really when you know a program intimately, then you can get the most out of it.

It might not have the most features, but if you can use the features that does happen yeah, it can work well for you. Okay. So I guess your earliest childhood memories that kind of got you into these kinds of sports was flying with your dad on a hang glider, basically. Yeah. My, my thought has always been an adventurer, the.

Sort of inspired us to, and, gave us the freedom to go and explore and to push ourselves and to to enjoy all these things. Again, he was amongst cyclists. So we also grew up with motorbikes. He'd take us, he'll walk in, let us climb rocks and trees that most parents nowadays would be, going, Oh my God, it's too dang gross down that and do that.

And my parents were just gone to the top of that. Let's see your plan to the top of that. It was just encouragement all the time, which was, it's a very positive way to bring a child up. I think a lot of things I hear today or where their parents is that it's the parents' fear that, that holds the kids back.

The kids have got tons of skills and they're ready to learn skills, but the parents are afraid. So they don't really let the parents, they don't want the kids to say what the kids should be doing, what she's climbing trees and rocks. And occasionally you might fall off a breaking out, but guess what?

It's good learning. So they never tried to hold you back from trying crazy things. I don't think of them as Gregory. I think of them as normal. I consider the things crazy because you're here on this planet for some great experiences in a very short time. And with what I know is available to us and sensory stimulation I want to try all these things and do all these things because.

Th this there's a beauty and a, an expression in all of them. And so why wouldn't I want to do all of them. So I pretty much do all of them. That's awesome. So I guess your background was like, I guess first hand gliders and then paragliders and then when did you first start getting into cutting?

How did you even, like, how did you hear about it first and how did you get into that? The cutting we actually we just started ozone back in, this was the first, at the very beginning of ozone. It was made two friends and we started it as a paragliding company. And so we were fully ensconced in the in the paragliding world at that time.

And. Basically kite surfing had just started, but I was a snow sport man at this particular juncture in my life. I was flying in the summers and snow sports in the winter, heavily in snowboarding and speed. And of course, cause I like to do everything.

What actually attracted me was snowcats in that syllabus. First they mentioned the magazine and snow collecting and literally, the following weekend I was Jason Snow because it was just, Oh my God, whatever that is, I need to do it because how were incredible in the mountains where the Kelly, I could see flying already.

I could see a skiing and snowboarding, these three passions of mine all mixed together. Oh my God. I got to get up there and do that. So pretty much the following weekend, myself and Matt Taga one we were in the car driving out to this place that we knew you could smoke. And we had literally two days on full line handle counts and, full line handled guides.

And we went back to the office on Monday morning. And when the people that were buzzing, like there was no chance that I found was, could do anything about from say, okay, let's try and smoke because me and Matt were just fully induced and yeah, we wanted to make snow accountants. So we set about making snow accounts and after a few years of snow, mainly because we wanted to wait until the patent, but Bruno like a now hat.

Finish because we didn't want to step on anybody's toes. We couldn't afford to get into the business in that time, but just a fresh paragliding business and all the constraints of a new business normally financial. Yes, we couldn't afford to pay that back. So we just said, let's just wait, we're not in the area.

We're in John Snow. And then the patent ran out and we decided it was time to take a 4:00 AM to the water as well. And so then I in a roundabout way, I've ended up enjoying now all these sensations in the water, which is fantastic. Yeah. I guess when you started ozone, that was before there was even like the instate of leading edge credits and all that kind of stuff.

It was this Ram here. Wings or, yeah. So that was the very early days and that it was you and a friend who started ozone? Yes, it was me and two friends. We started the CAD department lights later. That's when Matt came in, but in the beginning, yes, it was, we were, one of them was the British team manager for the British paragliding team.

Then there was myself and I was on the paragliding team and my other friend, Dave, he worked for AirWave paragliders back in the day, they were quite a big brand and our big manufacturer. And yeah, we just decided to get together and do our own thing because, you always think you can do better than the people that we're working for.

So we set out to. To have a go at doing that because maybe there was a little bit of dissatisfaction in that, it's a long time ago now and it's a lot of water under the bridge. Yeah. By the way, we have a really bad thunderstorm here right now and there's like rain just pouring down and it's probably, I don't know if you can hear it in the background, but it's it's really raining pretty loud right now here at fender and everything.

But no worries. But and then, so this was all like you, I guess you grew up in, in Raglan as well, or is that, and you're where did you grow up in? Was it, yeah, I'm an English man and I came from Yorkshire, a place called elites which is a very beautiful parts of the country on the very few days that the sun does shine.

Okay. And then what brought you to New Zealand? Oh, it's been a long trip. I guess what will happen to us? My sort of international hang-gliding and paragliding career took me all over the world. I've ended up living for quite a few years in Germany, quite a lot of years in France, the States Spain, Dominican Republic.

And then I always had this idea that I needed to go and spend time in New Zealand because of the small population. There's only 5 million. And so I decided this 15 years ago and here we are I made the decision to go to New Zealand. I have left in between, but I've left only for work, but now it's been almost 13 years.

I've been basically in rattler. And it's a great place. It's facilitated some amazing aspects of my life. Yeah. Ragland is really a beautiful spot. We've visited there a couple of years ago and yeah, it's just a beautiful place so I can understand why you settled there. And then ozone is based where's the headquarters of ozone or is there a headquarters?

There is a headquarters. There, there's a couple of them. The sort of kite surfing department is in spreading and near Barcelona and the paramedic department is in France and they are nice. And then for some reason because I can hear the design department for the colleagues in New Zealand, so also Matt, the owner, one of the owners lives here in Ragland. We've got a great test ride at Tara and Brian lives nearby as well. And if we need help, everybody wants to come to New Zealand for a holiday. So we only have to put the word out, Hey, if anybody wants to a bit of testing time down in New Zealand, normally there's somebody to come along.

So yeah, it makes a lot pretty easy. Yeah, no doubt. And then I guess you're also, I guess you're the head designer for ozone, but you also design for Armstrong, right? For army Armstrong and Armstrong foils. You do all their foil designs and the wings as well, or. No, not at all. I'm a partner in the business obviously is from New Zealand.

I met army he's an infectious character is my really great spirit. And at that particular moment, he I've known him for five years before this, but so five, 10 years ago, I've known him for about 10, 12 years. And then about five or six years ago when it started the foil business he needed a little bit of financial help.

So I got involved helping him financially and the business got kick-started and it was working, but it was a massive strain on him. Because we are working between here and China and also being new to all this kind of business, it was a pretty difficult. So I sat around a set about finding some other partners and we'll pump it up.

And that was how Armstrong really came into life. But in terms of design and development, I just help out with the testing. I give her some ideas on what are, I work with which profiles we might use on some files, but I don't do anything apart from that. The AUA news, all army, the actual, the true design is all.

He's the guy who's. I'm not plugged in to the water. He's plugged into the water I'm plugged in. So I stick to what I do for sure. There's theory that crosses both. But my sensitivity or, I believe my sensitivity for design is in flying things because I just, I feel that I have just a better connection for that.

Once we go into the water, just like I can jump on all kinds of hang gliders and paradigms and feel what I want to feel. It can do the same thing with all kinds of files. And if I don't protest with the foils, he's testing for the high-performance guy and I'm testing for the kind of the average Joe, because I just don't have those super skills Ollie's through Waterman half.

I'm just a, I'm just a wannabe. You're born in there. Like you said, that was your early childhood experience flying. That's probably in your being, so that makes sense. So the funny thing is that he's grown up on boats and sailing around the world with his father and, just has absolutely that connection.

So it's, the similarities are crazy, but it's just with different mediums. Neither of us have the mathematicians or scientists. We're all which is something I always like to remind people Because some people are surprised that neither of us have had any sort of formal education in this.

But what we have to understand is that mathematics and science are only explanations of nature, something religious plugged into nature, and they don't need the mathematics and the science to be able to find the right answers, the math, mathematics, and science are there so that we can try and have a broad spectrum of understanding of how something actually happens or why something happens.

But it's only a language that doesn't mean it's actually better than actually being connected. And someone like I just say that these plugged in and because you watch the last weekend, for instance, we went and tested some files, just telling him to some waves that ABI can jump from the very most high aspect weighing with.

The fastest tail on with the most shims in the backs of it, the whole thing is as fast as possible. And he can just get straight on that ride, come back, change the whole rig down to something like something made way with a slow tail on them, notions in the back and just an HS front wing or something and write it incredibly.

The second D stands on it. I crushed both at both of them for a couple of waves until I find your YouTube and then I can be a lot of work. I got it, but I don't really feel comfortable. So

I'm the average guy tester and the guy of itself, because you obviously need a sounding boat because it's very easy to get carried away with performance, but. I always feel like, Hey man, just don't leave me behind. It is so true what you said about the science part aspect of it, because you can't really, there's so many things that you think in theory, they should work, but then when you try it, it doesn't work.

So it's all about the feel and testing and R and D that's, you can't really predict how somebody is going to work until you try it. It seems like these sports. So that makes a lot of sense to me. And yeah. So the, it's more about the background of understanding what is actually involved in sport.

Then the theoretical part is really the secondary or afterwards, you can explain it maybe with the science, but why? I think what's also important is that everybody only goes home with a feeling right. That feeling isn't tangible in it's only tangible through yourself and through expression.

You don't put that feeling into maths and science, do you to go home and say honey, I had this amazing day. I re I, I released the power of the wave and at 2.5 tons of volume just behind man. That's not what do amazing the feeling out there was insane. So you're taking a feeling home, so you don't have to break it into silence, or it doesn't have to be developed from science.

Just, the testing for example, whether I'm testing a a paraglider or a wing or Italians or fathers, I'm only testing the feeling, it's what is the sensation that this thing is giving me that, is it easy to define that? Is it smooth? Is it progressive? Is it forgiving?

Yeah, I'm thinking too much to try and get the power out of this thing, or, there's the handling slow. Those are the things that are actually the relevant things for me. When something isn't working then, and in my mind, I'm drawing this picture of what I've built and then I'm trying to think, okay, so why is that not working?

Why is it not doing that? And go back home and look at the computer. And when I say, look at the boot, so I just started, you see the drawing, all the, the the 3d image rendering of it. And yeah. Okay. So it wasn't doing this. So maybe if I do that, it'll give me that result that I'm looking for with its better handling on whatever.

But it's all through just feeling. I can't plug in some mathematical formula, but to say, give me better handling. It's only imagination. Imagination. Yeah. Also just I always tell people like for Santa Palio and all those sports, where balances involved and things like that, you can't really use your mind to your mind is in fast enough yet.

It's almost like your nervous system has to take care of those adjustments. And if you try to think about it, it's just too slow, you have to have that confidence that your body will automatically regulate it. And then just it's really too, it happens too fast for your mind to think about it almost, yeah. It's definitely to be able to analyze it. Okay. So tell us how you got into making the wings. Like how, why did ozone decides to make a wing.

or whatever, this, a great scenario, because because I was getting into, in the business with army and I was very supported untainted that I really enjoy sub filing. I still love stuff for more than going toeing into the biggest stuff or whatever. I just really love catching waves on stuff.

And then, I saw one of the Slingshot weightings, and I suddenly felt with a guy riding it with writing us up with a foil and the wagon. I just thought now that actually is a really good way to get lots of time on the folder. And, cause I was subtitling, I just wanted more time on the foil because I wasn't that good at the time.

It was crushing way more than I want it to be. So I just, yeah that's the way. And literally went to the guys in the office and said I've been to make a wine and a couple of days later and literally just all happened at the same time. Kai had just started riding Rios and he just randomly sentiment.

He might have out of the blue saying, Hey, I don't suppose you're going to make any of those wings. Yeah. It just so happens.

It was a good little match as well because we were going to do it, but it's definitely a little bit of an incentive having. The idea that Kai wants one as well. So I'm not the only guy here with my hand up and we should be doing this. Yeah. It started from that. Obviously I can economically we've just launched the V2 and a big one I can just say is it was a reaction to something starting.

And that was my reaction to this thing starting we are in business at some point you have to put out a product and I was very happy with it at the time because it did what we wanted it to do. And it's been, relatively successful and people enjoy it. But I can definitely say that the two, because there's been more time is much more refined and yeah, just Has a multi giving character, much more forgiving characteristic than the bit you want, but

it was a new sport and everybody was just Hey, this is what I got. This is what I got. So it was nice because there, there was quite a few different types of designers out there and development doesn't just happen in one person's mind that happens through, seeing what other people are doing and all right.

Okay. Maybe I should try that. So now we understand the pros and cons of the boom having a booth yes. And not having a booth and lots of other little things, bits and pieces that, the Slingshot, the inflated trailing edge, it was an interesting concept. It probably isn't a viable in terms of consideration, but maybe we'll come back to.

But, yeah, so you've got to see all these new ideas and people edit what they have and that we get to refine the ideas and perfectly make them better and better. So the sport becomes easier and more fun, more accessible. It's pretty amazing that you had Kailani as a test pilot, from the beginning.

That, that's pretty awesome. So tell you, so let's talk a little bit about that V2. The, it looks pretty similar, like visually the design didn't doesn't look like it changed a lot, but what are the things that you find on this V2 version of it? Okay. The first thing that we were looking for was a better balance in the hands.

The pretty one, I felt that you had to pull the handle too out all the time to get the power out of it. And they worked enough power in the front end. What I would like is more power in front of him. And as you pull, look back on that power increases on the backend to match the front of that.

And so you ended up with a of that. So we spent a lot of time on this, working out that balance a lot of times, moving the handles up and down just to, to get exactly what the thing that's required. The next thing we did was so when you, sorry, when you're flying it, which channel do you use the most?

Or what, I guess it depends on the size of the wing too, but as a design team. So you would use mostly the middle back handle or the backpack handle or just to, there are different, various different styles and understandings our concept predominantly built, but the way that I like to STEM and I'll wings.

Okay. I liked the Wydown stamps. I find it more controllable in many ways. Stance. So predominantly I'm using the, and the pivot in the front, and I'm always on the backhand, unless it's flowing

pretty much around the most power is when you're on the back Campbell. But our wins are designed around either on the front, the lower end of the vape. And then on the very back handle is once it starts getting rid of windy and you're feeling like that too much, then that's where the big towers. Okay.

It's a, it's quite a wide stance, but if you want to bounce well, normally it's good to have your outs out. Most people don't bounce very well. So that's another reason why they have . Okay. Putting on the headphones. Cause it's so noisy here with the rain.

Yeah. It's a real downpour here. Crazy. I hope it doesn't flood. We're right at the quotes close to the water. So we, I guess this garage flooded before, so hopefully it doesn't get to that point, but yeah, it's coming down, but yeah, like I find myself using mostly the back handle myself as well.

Just feel I get more power out from having my hand all the way back. Okay. And then you added windows two. It looks like do some words. Oh, when windows looks like you added windows, you didn't, the original ones didn't have windows. We actually, we have some on order. And they're going to have like our little blue planet logo on it.

So I think that's super cool that you're you let people put on their own logos on your w on the ozone wings. And then I have to say too, that the way you have your factory set up and the ordering system is, cause we're also dealers, obviously we sell the ozone and we, we saw Armstrong as well at our shop, but just being able to go online and place the order and then see what's happening with the order, make the payment.

And then, and this is just a very nice system and it very clear about how long it's going to take. And when you get to get it and stuff like that, which unfortunately is not the case with most of the other brands. So that's something we're doing our best, that those guys have done an amazing job with the production facility.

And just so you know, the listeners can understand Please with the ozone wings at attention to the detail, but it's taken in the manufacturing of these things because it's actually our factory that we set up 20 years ago now in now it's literally like a massive extended family. We look after our work is very well.

We give them a breakfast, lunch, and dinner, and if there's overtime, which they really enjoy with them again we have health care pay above all the average wage. We try and when people say we're a little bit expensive, yes, we are a little bit expensive because we don't produce in China and we have our own factory and paying our work is more than what is normal.

But the reason for this is the quality that they produce for us. Because we look after them and we have great systems and they get us their best work. Literally, if you look at the stitching, it's all straight

the factories in Vietnam

and yes. Do you go there often? Do you travel to the factory often? Obviously it's not last year, but usually do you go there regularly or yes. Yes. It's important that the developments of movies spend time and not sometimes for both parties, it's good to see the difficulties in some, in the manufacturing and construction of these things, because it's very easy to get.

Karen away with complexity, but someone has to make the stuff. And then someone has to make the stuff, within a time schedule because we can't produce the craziest things in the world, but we're going to cost an absolute fortune because the summer time I put into the production, nobody wants to buy them all by phone.

So everything has to be understood. So sometimes you can go there and just see a process of struggling with, and literally modify the design. So the selling machine just has, 10 mil clearance next to a seat. And so that it can run free instead of them having to stop lift out over a foot down again.

We, so it's very small things, but we have a massive attention to detail and construction, and I hope that listeners and viewers can see that cat that is tempted. Yeah. I just had an interview too, with Annie Reichert who, one of your team writers and yeah, she said, one of the nice features too, is that there's two valves, so it's easier to deflate the stress now.

And I've noticed like a lot of guys here on a wall who had problems with the the stra bladder folding in and then popping. So w what did you do to fix that issue? It's basically now tethered on the inside. That's why the zip is up front. So it's easy to get to that. Yes.

Now it's tethered. So a strings attached to the end of the end of the bladder to the strep.

You can see that I've got a street with a back hole in the center where it was the previous model has described running all the way down. Along the side of the day, tried to match

the reason we've done message to lower the center of gravity, because obviously by this time, then the white, which isn't really ideal. And so now we're down lower back minus the wind sit more stable because now low, it seems, it also loves and loves better when you have that little panel, because it just allows the wing to flutter easier, right?

Yeah. Yes. Exactly. One thing we've done is we brought tips, so that helped him to bear with the water as much. Because definitely again, the video was was the winglets. We did that. They happen in the beginning. We loved it that much anyway, because we needed 25 knots. We didn't even know how to talk.

As we got better at that lead him to ride and lots of wins, the tips got into the layer. So they've been sheltered by about 2,250 millimeters on baby for winter. So it's quite a big difference in that way. You've got much more without tip interference. Okay. That's nice. Another thing I noticed is like your, the, your window placement is pretty similar to the Armstrong wings and whatever people say is that.

It's hard to see through the window because the top window is too high to look through. And the bottom window is covered by the strut, so I dunno what made you place the windows right there? Is that from feedback or I'm just curious the reason that when does a person that believe it's the best place for them to be, I would like to be scratch it.

for those listening, we just got interrupted by,

took a while to get get it back up again. What were you talking about? We're just talking about a windows. Yeah, and I did, I was just explaining out, making an excuse. I'm not quite sure which it was the reason the windows are where they are is first. You do have the ability to see that's the most important thing you might have to move the wing to be able to see.

Yes. Okay. I agree. But what I didn't want to do is put it in the next panel out because that panel is too far out. And so the reason it doesn't cross a panel is because I don't like to have things like different materials in a panel crossing because sewn together, then you have different stretch characteristics.

And in, especially in seams, it's better to not have different spectral characteristics because that love is in every seat. Obviously there's more load and At some point, if there's different stretch characteristics, it's not going to want to live next to each other properly throughout life. So that's why the window count be a bit further up or because diamond needs to do in the next panel, which is too high or it's where it is.

And like I say, it only takes a quick I'm good. Oh yeah, you can count. So I'm a total advocates at the window since the sport is getting bigger. People need to be able to see, especially on the, so when you are with Kelly surfers, Windsor , all these different crops now that are on the walls, they all go up when to very different, random angles, compare to each other.

So you need to be able to see what's happening when and where on a regular basis. But if you have to look for it and look for that, it's still not job to be aware of. Who's around given a window,

but it's still that. Just move your hands 10 centimeters and you consume plenty. And I guess another concern with the windows is that you want to be able to you don't want to increase them right when you're rolling it up. And so I guess it's probably easier to roll it up without creasing it when it's right next to this truck, then when it's in the middle of the window.

Yeah.

It doesn't matter whether it's because you can produce that stuff. We've got the special space center stuff. Oh, okay. So it's not a concern now. Yeah. We've had all the windows in a minus 25 degree conditions and no way, and we've been using them and, off desert conditions. No problem.

So are these pictures taken in Raglan or where is it? Where are these waves here? These waves are in Ventura. Oh, Fuerteventura okay. Yeah. Yeah. I guess ozone is a pretty cool global company. Huh? The good thing is the Spanish guys buy the main sort of parts of the hub of the Chinese certain departments.

It's very easy to go to flight to Ventura or the Canary islands under the Spanish flag. So it's just very cheap flights that you can probably get flights for 50 bucks, right? Yeah. Yeah. Very cool. All right. So basically the advantages of the new wing are that handles handle placements better.

The tips are less likely to catch the, is the leading edge diameter changed at all, or it has only four minutes or it's gone slightly bigger, but on the other sizes, it's virtually the same.

The other thing is with that baffled in the, the baffle rip down the center, it's allowed us to increase the fitness of the profile. So there's a,

there's more power and it's easier to access that power. The back handle is very, what's the word responsive in increasing the pal. Cause we've got quite a high CAMBA profile. This is what you call the baffle here. Yes. That's the battle, it's one of those things that, does it have a deeper profile?

Did you change the curve of the profile at all? Or? Yeah, so it's deeper in the front, deeper in the front end, the overwhelm, and another reason why it has small, but the main things that you're going to notice when you fly it is it's much more stable. You just get on it and it feels a plush is the best way to describe it.

It's just blocks to the standard. Oh yeah. This is very effortless. Nice progression on the power. You will notice. Now the front hand is loaded quite nicely. For instance, on the beat one, I was always getting my My lights, aching, like crazy on the backhand side would just be, Oh my God.

Cause you're just pulling them the whole time. And now being more balanced in the backhand, it's just a much more relaxed. So it's more comfortable to ride. It's more stable when you have just surfing on the front one. The V one had a tendency to flip over slightly regularly. But the two, it just sits there and doesn't do anything it's making generally it just makes it more comfortable.

It's more user friendly. Is the weight similar about the same or the weight of the wings? It's about the same as you want or to tell the truth? I can't tell you the right, because it's probably on the website. But not really much, but it will have been weighed. I can only imagine that with the window compared the new handles a little bit lighter, we're probably looking at virtually the same light.

So it's quite a lightweight especially with the CG, with that struct it automatically feels in the ed lights up because it just sits that, if you just get it up in a bit of Oh my God, it just flies into the cell. So it feels water, but I think it's actually manufactured infection lights.

Okay. Very cool. All right. Do you get, can you talk a little bit about the new Armstrong, a plus system? Do you know much about that? Or were you involved with that? With the work on that you were okay. I'm going to share some pictures of that and this, I guess when the time I'm posting this interview Armstrong will have this up on their website.

And so the new they're, they just announced it to the dealers, but this is the A-plus system. So they made some changes to the, as far as I can tell the fuselage has these barrel nuts that go through the fuselage kind of horizontally, right? Or why don't you explain the differences.

Yeah no, it's a you started with the right thing. The first thing that everyone should understand is that everything that we currently have is compatible with being the plus system. So every, all the wings you've got, it's not a problem at all fit for work. It's all good to go. The A-plus system, as you can see here in this one, in this diagram that we have up now in the photo, you haven't, now you can see now that there's a barrel that's on the top of the front line, right?

If you go to the top of, yeah, exactly. That, so that barrel nut is now going through top to bottom, which just locks the front ring on and then you've got the barrel nuts on the side of, yeah. So that's that one. Exactly. Yep. And then you go to the side of the fuselage and we've got one going in horizontally.

Yes, exactly. Inside of the mouth side. So we've got going in horizontally, that goes all the way through the fuselage and on the other side. So basically these are opposing forces that tighten themselves together and squash whatever's in between just that little bit more. And as you can see with this new high aspect where the ha 1125.

This has got an aspect of 9.8 to one, which is very high aspect. These wings have due to that enormous span and the fact that they are very powerful for their size. They have massive forces being created. We needed to develop a system that would cope long-term with those forces. Now, what I can just tell you is you can stick that wing straits on the rear that you have with no A-plus without the A-plus fuselage and it will work and it'll probably be fine, but over a long period of time, you might notice that there's a bit of wet between the fuselage and the mask, because these leverage loads, when they just keep working effectively, it's like super fine grit, sandpaper.

Over a very long period of time. We'll start to love each other and they'll make it a little bit of Slack. And so that's why we've come up with the A-plus system just to minimize that micro movement so that when not wearing out the fuselage of the mask, but as I said, you can still use that one tomorrow on any rape.

This is of the outlet. Yeah. And then they also offer a kind of a retrofit where you can actually a kit where you can basically it has a jig and you can drill out that hole yourself and add the nut and strew basically to an older or an existing Armstrong mass and fuselage. So that's kinda cool that, sorry, just to make one thing clear at the heart of the A-plus system is the fuselage.

And the reason for that is. Because the the barrel nut that goes through the mask and then through the fuselage has to go through that time Tanium. And this is a new hole. So you won't be able to have this barrel, not today on if you have the old system, because fuselage has a solid titanium and account pro presenter of it.

So the key thing for the whole thing is the fuselage. If you wanted to upgrade it, you can buy a new fuselage and then you can, re-drill the mosque with the Oh, you can drill the master, put in the barrel, not to cross the mask and you can drill all your front lens to have your front load.

Okay. For the battlements at the front. So basically that's why. Even, but you can still ride with everything. You've got just putting new wings on. You just won't have the battle of knots and Mustang in the front way. So yeah. So basically that basically though, the older fuselage, you cannot you can't add those barrel nuts on an old shoe slash cause basically you're saying, because you can't drill through the titanium rod in the middle, is that the issue you can't drill through the titanium rather than tap it, it takes interesting.

Yeah.

There's still no problem writing it without it's just that climb and that is going to get slopping because of the fact that I'll not sloppy, but there is going to be some play in that because there are massive forces with those supervisors. Sure. And that's the app, in foiling, you don't want any play between the mass and the fuselage and the front wing, especially if there's any kind of looseness that makes the whole thing feel sloppy.

Like you say, you said, you want that to be super rigid and stiff. So I guess the other differences, the tail wing as different as well. Yeah. Instead of having those titanium 3d printed shims, you're using plastic shims design. Yes. Now the title of mine can go directly on to the fuselage.

All existing title. Wings can go directly to the fuselage as well. Although the new eight plus system tailwinds, or just been slightly modified to, to basically fit it more elegantly. But oldest stuff, you've got some, there's no water to that. And the reason we did this was it's just easier to have.

A solid fitting with the master and the tailwind and just have the small shin adjustment if required because the titanium ferrings, although they were great, they were quite expensive. Whereas we're giving these things away for you. Yeah. That was one of the things I, like what retail, I think they're like $70 or something for one shim, so that's definitely not cheap.

So I guess these ones cost a lot less to manufacturer I'm sure. Yeah.

With the fact of the matter is that the Armstrong, ethos and philosophy is we basically want the best stuff that we can have to ride because, w when now the age that we've been through enough sports and used enough, Averaging crappy equipment and some very good equipment to, to know that it's much nicer to have really good equipment.

So yes, we may be outside and expensive, but that's because we're not really compromising because we don't want to compromise because we've got to go out of there and ride it. And I'm out there for the best feelings I can possibly get rather than something that we'll do. That's why, we had the tie to it and ship it and because of the time, that's what we thought was the best thing.

Okay. We've now love that. There's another way of doing it and it's simpler and it's cheaper. If we can, anything that we can make cheaper, then we can, we will, because obviously it's good for the customer and man. Yeah. As long as it doesn't affect the performance. Yeah. I've noticed definitely with Oilers, once you get addicted to the feeling of foiling then price becomes less of an issue, for beginners, they always.

Worried about price, but then once people get hooked, then I guess they're willing to pay for the drugs. You call it price insensitive, yeah, you don't care about the products you just want the next day fairly like start, I don't know, but it definitely the case that people just want to get.

Whatever's the best thing they can get, but tell us about this new wing. The H S 1125 it's I guess the first, really super high aspect wing that Armstrong make made. Right? Is that the case? Yes. I think it's the highest aspect when available on the market. I'm not sure about this, but basically we've been in the throws of making this for a year and a half.

Development is. Of these kinds of things is very difficult and time consuming because you're already looking for definite progress as such. And so yes, this has been the result. And it really is quite interesting if you, Oh, if you're winging it. Okay. Obviously with the big span, you're going to lose some reactiveness, but you're going to be very surprised that how quickly this thing can turn.

It still turns pretty damn good. If the tips come out again, we've been working on the section of the tip to stop the tips ventilating. So the tips can come out, nothing happens. You just carry on. The glide is amazing. So you're pumping and the timing that it takes or put it this way, you don't even have to really contemplate.

Your tax, you just to have the thing up wind and slowly move your hands over and I'd bring it down. I'm just still gliding with loads of speed and super easy. Just January, take the wing again and fly off. It's yeah it's pretty amazing. It's a great step in our progress. We're not going to talk about the rest of the market because the rest of the market is whatever the rest of market is, but for us, it's certainly amazing and we're all enjoying it.

When I first saw it. I just thought there's no way I can like that. It's just, it's too out there. And now I'm riding it all the time. I just love it. This is pretty smallest surface area, but like in terms of. Lyft. Obviously a high aspect, you always get a little bit more lift than on a low aspect wing for the surface area, but compared to the other wings what is it similar in lift to a 1250?

Or is it more like a 1550? Or what would you compare it to, in terms of the feel for the lift wise? That's difficult to hunt competitive like that. I normally think there the only limitation to a witness getting up, getting the thing for them. This is how it's how much speed it takes to get it.

Yeah, because it's high aspect. It doesn't have grounds, but once you get it going, it's got glide. Like you can't believe. And yeah, I love drag. So in that trade off, yes, you lose the grunt at the bottom end. So you've got to pump a little bit more, needs a bit more wind to get going, but once you going, the speed is phenomenal.

The glide is phenomenal. I'd say you've probably got the speed of the eight 50 with the glide of the ADT, but in a very different, but a much faster it's. Firstly, I haven't tried other hot before Ohio that follows on the market, but from what, from within what we do within the Armstrong range, something completely abstract because it does everything very differently.

It's still, an easy enough to use foil, in the glide in the way it reads it, it does well, but it's not like anything else. It's it's quite busy. But I think you're going to see a lot of people. Maybe a little bit of an initial hesitation, but once they get going on, there's certainly you're on flat water.

Oh my God, this is the way this is the way. If you're wanting to ride waves, you can still cruise on wipes with it, but it is a bit more technical and you don't have quite the maneuverability, but, I was with army just the other day and he was, yeah, he was riding the wave. I guess once people get good enough and used to it, Yeah.

Yeah. I find too, when you have a really high aspect, weighing it, with the wider wingspan, you just, if you have a longer mask that allows you to tip it over more, or, if the mass is too short and relations to the wingspan, then then the wing ends up breaching real easy or the, the tip comes out too easily.

And then that makes it a little bit harder. But I think with a longer mass you can go you can go wider on the wingspan as well, but let's talk about, sorry, just to recap on that's a very good point. We have that wing is best used with an 85 master longer. For sure you can't use it with a 72.

But, the wine Spanish, huge, the tips are going to be out quite long, then the tips can breech and it's not a problem, but you know that the trade-off with high aspect is that you are going to need the longer masks really. So this tailing, is this telling the same as this one? This one looks like it has like more V2 it or something.

Yeah. Yeah. This is the flying V and this is a little bit this is inspired a little bit by sky drama. And then because the America's cup is going on. Oh, incidentally, the front follow the the Halm 25 has been through the team, New Zealand computer that, that design computer to be analyzed and refined.

The best guys in the world have actually been looking at that have input and in what it is. So it really is about as cutting edge as we can get right now. And it's the segment of the tail. If you notice the tail, and if you look at the the foils that are on the America's cup yachts at the moment, obviously there are all these so army is very good friends with the sailors Jimmy respectful of people very good friends like out towing together that followed into we need together.

They're there, they're all involved. There's been a lot of. With this run up to the America's cup. Cause you're going to sit in the America's cup now, but obviously for us, it's been happening for a long time because it's happening in New Zealand, but New Zealand is a very sailing, orientated place country because it had a lot of coastline and a lot of people live on the coast.

So we're very water orientated. And we've also got a museum, has a big history and segment. So that has affected how I would design that Armstrong has happened because of spending time with those guys and those guys being involved with us. And it's all just played off on itself. So it's been fantastic.

And the knowledge that those designers have is phenomenal and the computing power they've gone through something and you can dream. Okay. These are the, these are some of the most. I think people in the world throwing money at designing the best things as they possibly can so that there was some very educated eyes run over those smiles.

Yeah. I believe it. Yeah, it sounds pretty cool. I was looking for this somewhere. There's some pictures of Jimmy Spithill foiling and stuff like that, but I don't have him on my computer right now. Try to look it up. Yeah. Jimmy and Pete head to head. Awesome. Fantastic. As well. Super high. I am Stu and these guys are training.

These guys are fit. That they're not sat down drinking champagne on the back of the bed. Now, this is lovely. He's got a Holly and it's just, I find it phenomenal that in their free time that they're running around chasing for them because of the feeling they're on the way doing dabbling quiz, towing it with Amil, with the East coast and the West coast.

It's just yeah, this is put it this way. The job is sailing, but I passion really is for, yeah. So for yourself personally, do you spend most of the time on the water now on a wa Wayne foil board? Or do you still go sub foiling or what do you do the most when you get? I'm in a lucky position.

I'm involved in everything designing tights and loss. Know so basically messing around on cars. So the 50% of the time, and then I'm missing around sub 20% of the time and maybe with the women 30% of the time. Obviously our work and colleagues is still the majority of my work is we have a big Reagan ship, always needs tending.

But for sure, I'd love to, to go from a way now for a couple of hours of that, and then get sat behind the computer for a while. Wait till the wind comes up and then go for a constant

prototypes. Then obviously I'm intent on other types, whether that's, but otherwise it's either work a little bit of flying. Yeah. For me, I just find like you were talking about it earlier too. Like when you get on the wing if you have a two-hour session, let's say if you're sub foiling, you might catch maybe five to 10 ways and maybe spend, you get 10 or 20 minutes on actually up on the foil.

If you're really good, that would be probably the max versus when you're winging, you can be up on the foil, probably like 90% of the time, so in terms of, that's why I think too, like when I started wing flailing, actually my foiling progressed a lot faster because I spent so much more time getting comfortable on the foil and all that kind of stuff.

It's helped my standup foiling as well, but now I kinda, yeah, when I'm set up for anything, I feel like, Oh man, it's I'm not getting enough time, yeah, but. It's all good fun. And I just love riding waves too. And yeah, sometimes the wind gets in the way but still it's like my friend Derek says, it's you have an Uber ride back out, like with the wind, it's like you, yeah, you got your Uber ride back out to the break, so you never have to paddle and stuff like that. So go ahead. I think that's why I love the way quite a long at the moment. I'm sure there'll be something else come along. So maybe not the same thing, but there'll be something that's going along. But what I like with the winning is that you get so many, you get so much diversity with the foil because I can go set up and then, if there's a sweat and.

Do some downwind in the wing and ride some waves or some bumps. And then if there's some real waves, then I can ride the waves with the way. And if there's no way, just going around and messing with them, just practicing your taps in jibes and some three sets there's and blah, blah, blah. It's just, it's all very better for you to can enjoyable.

It doesn't matter. There's no wires. No problem. Let's do this.

Yeah. It's a great tool for a diverse sort of enjoyment. Yeah. And it also opens up the sport of foiling to pretty much the whole world, as for, before you had to have a wave or, a certain type of wave even for foiling. And now it's just yeah, all you need is some water and a little bit of wind.

And and you have a huge wind range, too. If you have a big wing, you can go and really light, wind, and a few, strong winds. You can still link for me now I'm either in the four weeks or the three minutes. And then if it's strong, but if it's lights are a big enough for me to, I'm happy to change the wing under the water to have more fun riding than I always prefer to have a small one, just.

Maneuverability and comfort it's much nicer, but maybe the big guys feel happy with the five, but the fullest good for the three super nice as well. I can normally pump up with, three the same in the same strength. One was a Canada four if I just throw up. So just I'd much prefer to ride it.

1250 is my standard, but I'd much prefer 1550 on the state of the three meter in my hand, then compromise that because once this is small, you can do, you have to worry much less, so the attacks and jobs and trips, and once you get on the letters, Yeah. Having a small wing just makes everything so much easier, but so when you on a four meter wing, what's the lightest wind would you say you can go out and with the 1550 or, in a four meter wing?

I'm pretty confident that I'm good at 10 to 12 and 1250 and the full meter one. Okay. It's not pumping up electric fit, but we get it down.

And sometimes it's just waiting for that little Gus to, I guess what people, when you start out, it seems like you need a lot more wind to get it going, but once you get good at popping up on the foil, maybe waiting a little bit for the right Gus and then quickly popping up once you're up on the foil, it's so efficient that you really it's almost like you, you could almost go down half to half the size once you're up on the foil, once you get it going and you have that apparent wind coming up.

Yeah.

What do you think, how far it's come in? Such a short time? Both the foil development and the development isn't happening just because of the wings, but now we, the wings that definitely helped them with development. Because, it's giving us another opportunity, but we went up the fall. Just in a year and a half, we've come so far with some nice far wins now, and the happenings are getting better.

It's only going to get easier and more fun in the future. So do you have, like you're saying, there's probably going to be another thing coming in the future. Do you have any thing any ideas or crazy ideas about what could be next or things you want to try or she's your technologies you're playing around with, I've got a feeling the advent of the electric battery age and about the electric power age is, w we're scratching the surface now with with the folio boats, but. I can imagine a little electric power pack on your back or something where it's more of a fan rather than just like a powerhouse, but electric it's waterproof a bit like the diving things that they use in the water, but about that.

And it's just a fan, whether you'd go out there just to accelerate up on top of the foil, the wings are so defaulted that you can just some little pumps every now and then go out, catch some waves, the hood. Who knows that the human imagination can take us anyway. Know, it's just a, it's a case of a little bit of time and effort.

So I'm sure we're going to see some things. Yeah. I was wondering too, if there could be like a combination between kind of winging and kiting, like where you have some short lines that you can like, kinda let the wing of final at higher may not my friend Derek actually does that.

He has this long line on his wing and then he just lets go and holds it by, by the line and that's higher up in the air and he gets no light wind that helps because you get a little bit more wind once the way is a higher right. You have more power and yeah, no worries.

Oh, your

battery technology is not quite there yet.

Yeah. Cool. Yeah. W what else do you want to talk about? Any, anything else? You want to get into I'm not really well. I honestly, Rob, I think we've covered a lot, but it was good. Yeah. I think we're about that. But like I say, it was a total pleasure. I hope that it brings some form of entertainment maybe.

Yes. Yeah. Entertainment is the best thing.

You know how people that are addicted to foiling, they'll spend the money to get the best thing, things that they want, but also in terms of consuming information, like I'm always surprised how many people actually listen to these interviews and listen to the very end. But especially all, all this stuff you talked about is super interesting.

I'm really interested in it and I'm sure there's going to be plenty of people who are going to eat it up, yeah. I, I certainly don't I'm a positing is my understanding of my feelings. So everybody's different. Some people like this, some people like that, I've got no problem.

We're just doing what we can do and enjoying what we can enjoy. If you're not an expert, I don't know who is, but I guess none of us are experts

if people like it. People like the things that, the themes that we create, then that's fantastic because that's what it's about. Really. We're just facilitators and we're just sharing that common feeling. And so people that are feeling that fantastic and people that another brand is feeling. No problem.

Don't enjoy it. Just the main thing is people are out there experiencing and enjoying sports and nature. Yeah. Actually there's a couple more questions I wanted to ask you. I almost forgot. So usually I ask all my guests who should I interview next? Who do you think would be good to get on the show and talk about wink, flailing?

Unfortunately I think. I'm going to say someone who's probably difficult to get on the show, but I think it'd be interesting to know what Kelly, hi Kailani. Oh yeah, for sure. Mainly because I'm not I'm impressed with this guy because I have chosen to ride some. I was by the, by I'm impressed with the guy because he can cross over all these sports and, just are still looking at me without if they'll do I find that just the crossover between some forms set up messing around with, but this guy can go pretty much next level on everything all the time.

He obviously loves this because he took all that to Jones. I, yeah. Some of that footage, he's just on a regular 12 foil board, but let's say he catches air and it's he's floating down the face, almost like a Pelican flying along the front of the wave, the sun, the updraft of the wave.

Just almost, it's almost like paragliding, yeah. What he's doing, it looks like he's just hanging in there for a long time email. I'm not pretending although I'm sure we're friends, but you tell me by email is that expressed that he had expressed once a week to be able to fly down Jones.

And of course, my background in flying, I can see straight away. And obviously now what I do in the stuff, I know how the through the water just creates its own up graph. And as soon as he said, I'm just thinking God it's possible. And so we are working on a special one for him to do that.

You can't hold a drip man down and the guy wants to do it now. So I didn't really think was ready for that kind of thing. But he decided it was Oh, that's cool. So you actually working on that kind of a glider wing that can basically float in that updraft, that's coming up the face of the wave.

And just I wouldn't say at the moment, we're just working on the special link, especially when we're just working on a way for him to satisfy what he would like to find that. So

I don't know if that's a win for everybody else or whatever, it's just. Look at what the guy can do. If we can facilitate him to do something kind of something else, then let's do it. Yeah, totally. That's good. Yeah. Okay. The other thing I wanted to talk a little bit about is just, the whole pandemic and the whole situation in the world and how you've been dealing with it.

I know, like in New Zealand you guys have been probably one of the, one of the few countries where you're like, I guess pretty much unaffected by it at this point. Like you can just go out as normally and go shopping without a mask on and all that kind of stuff. But how has it affected your life and was there like, is there a silver lining to it and how have you been dealing with it personally?

Okay. Excuse me. So the silver lining to it is that Basically society. The Cuban spin sees is also like a muscle. If you don't stress that muscle from time to time, it doesn't get stronger. The muscle is currently being stressed and already we're beginning to show signs of strength and we weren't weak and we were vulnerable.

And that we're beginning to understand that this bigger than is applying to them. It followed you. And the potential of the human existence to go forward is probably with a little bit more awareness than we were displaying before. So in that respect, yes, there is still the line for myself personally appearing very lucky I have to go to the States right in the middle of this thing, which I didn't want to do.

But I have to go to the States. Then I went to the Dominican Republic. Then I went to Spain. Then I went to UK. I think I went somewhere else to Germany. And then I finally came home and I managed to Dutch. COVID the whole way I came back to New Zealand where life is just carrying on totally as loss, which is a blessing.

Fantastic. And as I came here and just drove into town, so people everywhere and restaurants for people living normal life after the full month, I've had nothing was normal. It was very galvanizing in my gratitude for being here. In New Zealand, because with a small population it's relatively easy to control.

And at the same time might have me truly appreciate the, there are people who are having a massive discomfort, an auction because of this this event. Yeah, I hope that it gets played up soon and we can return to some form of normality, but I hope that normality is where a lot more awareness of and gratitude for life.

We take it for granted and we're also better considering myself, and so if there's anything that opens our eyes to that, then I think it's a good thing. Yeah. I think just being able to connect with people like we are now over zoom. I never used zoom before, before the pandemic and now it's like normal.

Everybody knows how to do it and then send someone a link and we can talk like this and see each other and talk like we're sitting across from each other. So that's pretty cool. Okay. So when you came back to New Zealand from all the travel, what was the procedure to go back? And I dunno, what is it?

I thought New Zealand was completely shut down that you couldn't travel back and forth, but you can only travel to DC, London rested. And when you came back, you had to go into that two week quantity and it wasn't it was relatively strict, but it wasn't terribly strict. And yeah, I got tested twice.

And if you were playing and you were allowed out, it seems to work quite well. But like I say, this is a big Island where there's lots of satellite communities. There's only 5 million people. Everybody's relatively well educated. If you couldn't control it here, you couldn't control it anyway. And although it was a lot of praise for the prime minister, she did do a relatively good job.

But like I said, if you couldn't control that hair, then you know, you're pretty helpless because this is being able to control it. Hawaii is an even smaller Island or islands group of islands, even less population. And we weren't able to keep it out. You know what I mean? Cause we were so a tourism dependent, they just waited too long to shut it down.

But But, I don't know. You can, it's also like it's a trade-off, is, how much economic damage is it worth to save those lives? It's a hard question, so yeah. Yeah. It's a hard question, but the biggest problem is, and stuff.

I find the question, disappointed how much economic damage we have, so economically minded, but we've lost really the true value to life because economics comes before and to a certain degree, it has to, or it has to come in unison. But let's face it. Economics has been at the forefront of the modernized existence.

So let's say at least the last hundred years, it's all about economics now. And we forgot to nurture any of the requirements around nature that can help people's fit recognize that, we were overturned, again, we were over tourism, everywhere and everything. And it's not, we've actually found that it's not helpful.

It's happy to make some money, but at the same time, there's people traveling on planes everywhere. And basically all they do is consuming and leaving junk behind, but blah, blah, blah. It's just, okay. That's true. And to destroying the places they're visiting too, the economical balance.

How healthy is economics not there? So we need these extends to push us and make us professional. No, I totally agree with that. Yeah. Especially the, just the environmental impact that we're having on the earth, obviously like the global warming and stuff that, all the concern about that kind of took a back seat to let's control this pandemic and at any cost.

But I guess one of the results was, less travel, which resulted in less pollution. Definitely, yeah, all that air travel all over the place is definitely not good for the environment, but but it sure is fun to travel. This is something I'm looking forward to being able to do again, yes. And, I love travel. I've been traveling all my life, but I can recognize that. Every flight time about pretty much every flight time always been a proper price tickets. I don't really use my at the small super cheap airlines that are just literally busing people around Europe, delivering them so they can, instead of being an England consuming, they take them to Spain that, and consuming that and blame something two weeks and then ship them back again at $49 a ticket.

So we can, we're working on a mass scale rather than that, an economically viable stand while you're paying 300 bucks for that seat. They've just minimized it. Lots of flights, super cheap, get them going. We'll make the money, know that it's one business model, but it's a business model. We don't really need it.

There has to be a price for that travel. And if it, if we're make it too cheap and too easy, then yes, the effect is on our atmosphere. Everyone gets a cheap, fantastic. Actually it's better to have an expensive holiday and have less of an effect on him. Yeah. And yeah, I think somehow there has to be a way to price the damage that you're causing into the cost of the ticket like that, because that, that $99 ticket probably causes $200 worth of environmental damage, so that needs to be somehow taxed or it needs to be calculated into the cost of that ticket, cause like in the long-term we got to be basically incentivize being wasteful and it's also one of the things that this ask them is it has incentivized people to stay at home.

And then Joey, where they live, people are always having these ideas about, Oh my God, it's going to be so amazing. If I get over that, Hey, open your eyes. Most of the time, it can be amazing. But you've got, these are aspirations for something over there. So you can't really get in and focus and enjoy what you have because that's the thing that's going to bring the joy and you've only got this and I want that.

You can't have that. So you better start looking and enjoying this and, New Zealand, tourism, and now a survivor from New Zealand. But we used to have an influx of dominoes every year with overseas tourists. We haven't had it, but sometimes people are traveling within the borders. Yeah. Yeah. I've been living here on a wattle for over 30 years and now just for the first time went to this on a hike to Kyle crater, like I'd never been there and just being up there on the mountain and just seeing this view and being out there as awesome.

And it's yeah, probably just as good as traveling around the world to see something somewhere else. Yeah. Yeah, so as it really that's what the cool thing about traveling is that the sense of adventure and seeing new things and having new experiences. And, but yeah, a lot of that you can experience much closer to home if you want it to.

And so just that mindset. Cool. What do you do to keep your keep a positive mindset and stay healthy and young at heart. And so on, any secrets to life that you can share staying positive. If that's purely, that's a choice you have every day you wake up in the morning, you might get a good day or a bad day.

You can sell them, problems that are actually only molehills into mountains that spoil your child. And what I try and do is wake up a bit grateful to be alive. The sky is great. Enjoy your gray star. If the sky is blue and  breathing, you've got a chance to have a great, the next, 18 hours while you're a white guy or whatever it's going to be.

Just get up and go and make your life happen. Big act to motivate connect with nature and. Yeah. So the those are great tips. Yeah. I agree. Like it's almost impossible to be in a negative mindset if you're grateful for everything you have. So if you remind yourself of the things that you're, you can be grateful for, that's definitely a good way to stay positive.

And then, yeah, the same for us. Yeah. Getting out there, getting out on the water, getting into nature is always a good way to change changing mindset. I feel very lucky that I don't have a TV. So my life isn't indoctrinated with other people's rhetoric, it's only indoctrinated with what's actually is my day and what is within my rail.

And for sure you can say that it's good to, to know what's happening over in Guatemala or the weather or whatever. But I can't affect it. Its relevance to me might be life-threatening but I'll deal with that when it happens. The best thing I can do is to not have all that extra noise affecting what my real life is, my real existence, which is what I have here.

I cut over from the noise and the TV is the biggest my cultural and vehicle has ever been created. And that generally feeds in the modern day drama and people bring that drama into their own lodge because they see it on TV every day and too much of it. And it's all overdramatized. So that's now how they think they should be reacting to things that happened.

Whereas it's drama, TV, they're overreacting to everything. What we should be doing is switching it off and doing anything else. All right. That's a great way to end the interview. I think that's really good advice. I don't watch the news. I like to stay in farming, but it usually I try to read it, and from a from a good source, I like to read the economist and get all my information from that.

All I need to know about the world. And it's more kind of, it's dry. It helps me fall asleep. Yeah. That's something like the economist as intellectual content, fantastic. I like the economist when I sit down on a bike rack or whatever, but what I'm talking about here is this is mine, not pollution.

It seems to me that the mass of the population hasn't wanted to have, but this is. A tool just to take out the go live. So you go and do what they want you to do, which is spend money. And they don't really care about you spending money by this latest thing. We don't need cases, shit, John because well, or whatever, and overreacted, because you've seen it on TV and stuff.

Yeah. And eat junk food. Don't exercise consume lots of drugs and die young after you spend millions of dollars in medical care. That seems to be like how they want you to live your life right now. Exactly. And there's such beautiful lives to be lived if you just wake up and actually take control of your own life.

Live it and stuck with old junk rubbish. And it's so easy. Yeah. One of my favorites is people don't believe that you can be happy all the time because there has to be a ying and a yang. Why not? I'm pretty much happy all the time and there's no secret to it. It's a choice, you can, something comes along, it affect you like Oh at least the sky is still blue.

Oh, fantastic. It's where you choose to put your thoughts. We just take them away, put them somewhere else. Yeah. It's like having a default your default is happy and yeah. Sometimes you get knocked out of it, but then like you get back to your default state, which is, yeah.

Don't let it affect you for too long. It's just to remind yourself like, okay, this is most of the time. If it's not life-threatening for you or your family, it doesn't matter.

That's true. All right. Great. I think that's really good stuff. I love it. Thanks so much.

Yeah. When you come out with some new stuff out, I'll hit you up again for another interview and keep it going maybe in six to 12 months or whatever. There's new stuff to talk about. Yeah, but also thank you for your enthusiasm to generate

enthusiastic people that helps spread the knowledge. So thank you very much. All right. Yeah, no problem. I would do it because I enjoy it. So it's easy.

I have a great night and we'll talk soon.

It alkalizes you? Yes. A bit of a tweaker when it comes through. I like to balance my bad habits with some good habits, but I've got plenty of bad ones too. So you drink water with Apple cider vinegar. And what else you said baking soda. So alkalizing, I, I've heard that putting a little bit of lemon, fresh lemon juice in the water also.

Alkalizes you, even though it's an acid, so it just doesn't make sense, but I guess it, alkalizes your system. That's what I've been getting. Yeah, that's what I've been doing in the morning. I just drink water with a little bit of lemon juice, and that seems to work. I'm actually told this is one of the best ways to start the day, but I can tell you how to make it even better for you.

There's only a certain amount of effective goodness in the juice. The best thing you can do is freeze the Lebanon and in the morning, grate the lemon with the rind internal as well as external. And a lot of the goodness that's in the lemon, is it in the rind. So by, by doing that, and so that's my go-to first drink of the day.

It's just grated lemon, frozen lemon into water. That's my first one. Then I get into the car. Yeah. I love coffee too. I don't think I'm going to stop drinking coffee, but it, yeah, it's easy to get addicted to the caffeine, but I find that one of the hardest things to quit. It's caffeine, but yeah, like I said, Ben's stuff is another one.

Yeah.