11. Health Equity, Patient Engagement & You w/ Kellie Goodson, MS, CPXP

In this episode, we discuss what health equity is all about, what we can do to advance patient and family engagement, and how these issues matter to us all when it gets right down to it.

Our guest is Kellie Goodson, MS, CPXP, a thought leader in the areas of person, or patient and family engagement (PFE) and equity in health care quality and safety improvement. She has led a multi-year analysis of hospitals leveraging and deploying PFE in quality and safety improvement that demonstrated a correlation between high levels of PFE and improvements in patient outcomes, specifically lower rates of 30-day readmissions and falls with injury. She has worked with multiple health systems to improve patient outcomes using quality improvement science through the lens of health disparities identification and resolution.

Kellie co-led national Affinity Groups for the topics of PFE and health equity for the Centers for Medicare and Medicaid Services and has served on National Quality Forum committees, including the National Quality Partners Action Team to Co-Design Patient-Centered Health Systems.

Kellie received her Bachelors of Science in Business from the University of New Hampshire and her Masters of Science in Integrated Health Care Management from Western Governors University. She also received her Certified Patient Experience Professional (CPXP) designation.

Kellie Goodson, MS, CPXP on LinkedIn:

https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellie-goodson-ms-cpxp/

On Twitter @kac0102

Music Credit:

Jason Shaw from www.Audionautix.com 

 

THE IMPERFECT SHOW NOTES

To help make this podcast more accessible to those who are hearing impaired or those who like to read rather than listen to podcasts, we’d love to offer polished show notes. However, Swift Healthcare is in its first year. 

What we can offer currently are these imperfect show notes. The transcription is far from perfect. But hopefully it’s close enough - even with the errors - to give those who aren’t able or inclined to learn from audio interviews a way to participate.  Please enjoy!

Patrick Swift PhD, MBA, FACHE: [00:00:00] Welcome folks to the Swift healthcare video podcast. I'm Patrick Swift. And I want to thank you for dialing in for joining us. I have a special guest Kelly Goodson for the show. Kelly. Welcome to the show.

[00:00:11] Kellie Goodson, MS, CPXP: [00:00:11] Great. Thanks to be here with you today, Patrick.

[00:00:13]Patrick Swift PhD, MBA, FACHE: [00:00:13] Absolutely. I think we're going to have, okay. Fantastic show. And let me read you folks. Uh, Kelly's bio here. Very impressive. Uh, person Kelly is a thought leader in the areas of person, patient, and family engagement and equity. In healthcare quality and safety improvement, she has led a multi-year analysis of hospitals, leveraging and deploying patient family engagement in quality and safety improvement.

[00:00:36] She has worked with multiple health systems to improve patient outcomes, using quality improvement science through the lens of health, disparities, identification, and resolution. Let's not just identify it, but let's find the solution to it as well. Kelly has Cola and listened to this. Kelly has co-led national affinity groups.

[00:00:53] For the topics on the topics of patient family engagement and health equity, for who, the centers for Medicare and Medicaid services. I think you've heard of them and is deployed on the Nash has served on the national quality forum committee, including the national quality partners action team to co-design patient-centered health systems.

[00:01:12]Kelly, welcome to the show. I'm delighted you're here. And what are we talking about here? Folks? We're talking about patient family engagement. We're talking about health equity and you, and what that means is that this topic relates to all of us. This isn't just, um, a sub. A component with them. What we do with healthcare is all of us, whether we're in finance, whether you are in environmental services, cleaning, helping, cleaning the floor, whether you're in a physician, caring for patients, whether you're a CEO, I'm a CEO has gone undercover boss and I have, I've helped clean the floors and wiped down toilets and beds.

[00:01:47] This is all of us together. And the work that we do right. So I'm in the show. Kelly, we're going to talk about a lot of incredible stuff. And I want to ask you also just the top of the show. What are you up to these days? You've done so much.

[00:02:00] Kellie Goodson, MS, CPXP: [00:02:00] Yeah, thanks, Patrick. Uh, currently I'm working at Visiant, which is a, , member owned member driven healthcare performance company. We've got not-for-profit academic medical centers and community-based hospitals across the country. I've also started partnering with a new startup called diversity crew.

[00:02:20], and that's a consortium of passionate people, really wanting to help improve diversity, equity and inclusion, not only in healthcare, but in, in. All industries. And I also work with a company called ATW health solutions. It's a consulting company out of Chicago. Again, working in that patient engagement and health equity space.

[00:02:43] Patrick Swift PhD, MBA, FACHE: [00:02:43] excellent. Well, shout out to all those companies and, and just kudos for being part of all that. And we're, we're, we're taking a look at patient family engagement and health equity. We could talk about that for hours, right? But let's break that down for the purpose of the show and just talk about the tools and, and I know there are two tools that you're using this work.

[00:03:02] Can you tell us about that?

[00:03:04] Kellie Goodson, MS, CPXP: [00:03:04] Yeah. So I really focus on how to use patient and family engagement as well as health equity in your quality improvement efforts. So, you know, let's start with patient and family engagement. It's really, it's known. Throughout the industry that when an individual patient is activated and engaged and educated about their own health care, that they get better outcomes.

[00:03:30] Um, this has been studied for decades and, uh, I just want to mention Dr. Judy Hibbard who created, uh, what she called the PAC patient activation measure or Pam tool that actually she created.

[00:03:42] Patrick Swift PhD, MBA, FACHE: [00:03:42] healthcare without another acronym.

[00:03:44] Kellie Goodson, MS, CPXP: [00:03:44] know, right. Uh, but this patient activation measure really brought to light that patients are at different levels, uh, of their own, you know, knowledge, education, confidence in how to care for themselves.

[00:03:58] So, , Dr. Hebert came up with four levels of patient activation, you know, starting from sort of that traditional, , passive, , you know, Patient that really just receives healthcare. Just, you know, it's more of that one way street, they just receive the information , they do their best, but they don't really have the confidence to care for themselves.

[00:04:16]And then it, you know, it goes all the way up to level four, the highest level where. They're their own advocate and they are really, um, understand their condition. They, they advocate for themselves. They're looking for the best, , you know, medications and procedures and solutions for themselves. So this, this, , patient activation concept that Dr.

[00:04:38] Hibbard really brought out is one of the most researched and most studied, um, patient engagement tools. So it's, it's really brought to light how. Outcomes can be improved when we activate and engage our patients.

[00:04:53] Patrick Swift PhD, MBA, FACHE: [00:04:53] And that's so critical Kelly, because it reminds me of a, a gentleman I took care of in the two thousands, diagnosed with my Justina and gravis on, on a neuro rehabilitation unit. And when I first met him black gentleman in his thirties, and when I engaged him, I asked him how he was doing. And, and w w what are we doing?

[00:05:16] What are you doing here? How can we help you to get his input and his own words? And he said something that stuck with me. He said, what's the point in talking with you about this? Because no one really listens. And he had been misdiagnosed, poorly assessed and gone through a arduous, horrible journey of not.

[00:05:35] Being properly assessed and then treated and had been completely disempowered and stuff. My focus when I heard that, um, was to be his best friend, to engage, to get his story, to prop him up, uh, to be engaged in empowered. And what you're describing is these four levels in which the. One person is the least engaged and there is a bias I think we have of, well, if the patient is not really engaged and they must not really care about their health, and there is so much we can do. To engage our patients and also engage our colleagues to be part of this journey. So this gets to, I just, I love it. I love that you started with that and thank you for, uh, tickling my memory from, from 20 odd years ago, uh, , of an patient I was caring for, because this is about engagement.

[00:06:22] When we engage people. There are better outcomes. There's better. Self-esteem, there's better health. There's better quite frankly, joy and heart in what we do in this dyad, this collaboration with, with our patients and with each other.

[00:06:34] So let's switch gears, , to health equity and, , how can it be a tool for quality improvement?

[00:06:41] Kellie Goodson, MS, CPXP: [00:06:41] Well, let me, I'm going to ask you a question. I'm going to have you put your old CEO hospital's CEO hat on and

[00:06:47] Patrick Swift PhD, MBA, FACHE: [00:06:47] Oh, I got a hustle here. Okay. All right.

[00:06:50] Kellie Goodson, MS, CPXP: [00:06:50] So what would you say if I told you I could find, uh, the patients. In your hospital that have, that are in the highest readmitted let's use readmissions, for example, highest readmitted patients.

[00:07:03]And within that group, I can tell you exactly, , the subcategories of patients that are highest. Readmits to the hospital, , and really pinpoint who those groups are for you, so that you can, you know, shift your resources and shift your focus to help those patients not be readmitted and really reduce your, your readmissions overall.

[00:07:30] Would, would you be interested in that?

[00:07:32] Patrick Swift PhD, MBA, FACHE: [00:07:32] absolutely. And here's why. On many levels. And I, if I'm putting on that CEO hat, I'm going to put on my CEO hat, I'm not going to give the, the, the, the, the standard answer. Um, the standard answer I think, would be about, uh, well, I'll just speak for myself. Um, this is about, it is about safety.

[00:07:53] It's about quality. It's about the patient experience is about the, the, the physician and the provider experience. So from a safety and quality perspective, when you're identifying folks that that are let's call them frequent flyers, who are coming through the door constantly, we, that's not ideal. Because it may be heads in beds and maybe an old bottle in which you've just got people coming through the door and you're generating revenue as a hospital, but that's a zero sum game.

[00:08:19] And everyone loses with this fee for service. Boom, boom, boom has in beds. I would be really interested in how you identify those patients and then how can we serve them and reduce the likelihood readmissions, right. Cut down on their frequent flyer status. They would get less miles. That's fine. They don't need free tickets.

[00:08:36]And, um, the benefit to the, the, the providers and the organization also is that you're able to serve more people. More effectively, because then you don't have people coming through the hospital that are using up resources that we could apply elsewhere. And then we're able to think proactively about prevention, about, um, engagement for staff to be able to be part of these bigger solutions.

[00:08:58] So, and I could go on, I'll shut up, but, but really we're touching on safety, quality of the experience, the economics, um, and quite frankly, doing the right thing for the right reasons at the right time. And what you're touching on is the timeliness, because right now, as we speak, there's someone sitting in an emergency room who's suffering, who's constantly going through this revolving door and, um, it may be benefiting the, the, the, the system.

[00:09:19]Uh, that they're going through that door and there's, there can be an organization where they're not interested in, in helping stop that, but those organizations that are interested in stopping it, um, and cutting down on their frequent flyer status, uh, I can do better and save lives, save money, um, use better resources and, and do better.

[00:09:37] Good. I had my arm day glory to the greater glory. Yeah,

[00:09:39] Kellie Goodson, MS, CPXP: [00:09:39] Yeah. Yeah. And, and the way we do

[00:09:42] Patrick Swift PhD, MBA, FACHE: [00:09:42] this is probably more than you. That's

[00:09:43] Kellie Goodson, MS, CPXP: [00:09:43] No, no, that's

[00:09:44] Patrick Swift PhD, MBA, FACHE: [00:09:44] more than you plan on biting off, but you asked my opinion. So.

[00:09:47] Kellie Goodson, MS, CPXP: [00:09:47] Well, we do, you know, what we do is we, we can, uh, you know, find those patients by really dis-aggregating our data. So we look at data in the aggregate all the time and I'll stick with readmissions. So we know that heart failure, AMI pneumonia, CLPD readmissions, those are high rates. Of readmissions patients with those conditions, you know, automatically have these sort of higher rates of readmission than your average patient.

[00:10:13]So when we dis-aggregate that data, for example, we can find out, you know, these people from this certain zip code have higher rates of heart failure, readmissions, or, you know, we, when we desegregate the data, we actually can see what's happening.

[00:10:30]And I've got a really great example of a hospital

[00:10:33] Patrick Swift PhD, MBA, FACHE: [00:10:33] and then you identify a solution.

[00:10:34] Kellie Goodson, MS, CPXP: [00:10:34] Then you, then you identify Switzerland. So the, the hospital system Novant health they're based out of North Carolina, they, , dis-aggregated their pneumonia readmissions and found out that African-Americans in their hospital, had the highest rates.

[00:10:49] Of pneumonia readmissions. So they got a group together and went to work, use the traditional PI qui tools of improvement. And they did chart reviews. They did observations, they interviewed patients, they interviewed staff and they discovered some very specific things that they could do. That would help the African-American patients reduce those readmission rates.

[00:11:12]So, um, not only did they get rid of that disparity in the readmission rate between their African-American and all other patients, they re they dropped their pneumonia readmission for all of their patients. I

[00:11:26] Patrick Swift PhD, MBA, FACHE: [00:11:26] Yes. So I love that you said that because that's a win-win win.

[00:11:30] Kellie Goodson, MS, CPXP: [00:11:30] When, when, when am. And, um, I was really honored, uh, to nominate

[00:11:34] Patrick Swift PhD, MBA, FACHE: [00:11:34] Everyone benefits

[00:11:36] Kellie Goodson, MS, CPXP: [00:11:36] yes, and they, they won an award for it. I nominated them for the inaugural CMS office of minority health, health equity award back in 2018. And they were, uh, awarded that, that, you know, um, that distinctive award from CMS. So, not only is it a win for patients, it's a win for the organization.

[00:11:56] It's a win for everybody. Like you

[00:11:58] Patrick Swift PhD, MBA, FACHE: [00:11:58] I love it. I love it. So you're desegregating the data. You're plying that information. You're identifying solutions. And when you identify a solution, you're saying, and I, I want listeners to be aware that Kelly, what you're talking about is when you identify the problems and the solutions to it, then processes can be put in place that are helping everyone, not just a particular slice of the pie.

[00:12:20] That everyone benefits from this. So I want to challenge folks to be interested in what's going on in your organization. How is your organization looking at health equity? Because there are people, I mean, let's take the black lives matter conversation. I I've got friends . I love dearly and they get defensive saying, what do you mean black lives matter all lives matter.

[00:12:40] Well, of course they all matter. But when there are disparities related to black lives, well, injustice anywhere is injustice everywhere. Number one, but number two, there are people suffering as a result of systemic ways. We built health care. And so when we solve a piece of the pie, um, in one slice, the truth is that everyone wins.

[00:13:05] So when we're recognizing that black lives matter, um, everyone is winning. Um, if you want to drive a campaign for white lives matter, like what, what good is that doing? Uh, there's plenty of folks, white folks being a white, Hispanic myself, but being a white person, uh, the system is I'm certainly benefiting from being white.

[00:13:25]Um, but when it comes to addressing health equity, health disparities, um, black lives matter when we address the inequities inequities in healthcare, um, everyone's winning. So I'll get off that soap box, um, and go back to

[00:13:38] Kellie Goodson, MS, CPXP: [00:13:38] Well, the rising tide rises all boats. Right. And that, um, you know, and Patrick's

[00:13:44] Patrick Swift PhD, MBA, FACHE: [00:13:44] not voodoo economics.

[00:13:45] Kellie Goodson, MS, CPXP: [00:13:45] no, not

[00:13:46] Patrick Swift PhD, MBA, FACHE: [00:13:46] is, this is not a George Bush and we're not talking about voodoo economics here, but we are talking about, uh, all boats rising.

[00:13:53] Kellie Goodson, MS, CPXP: [00:13:53] Yeah. And you know, this is really what federal state, um, and even the CDC, um, has done with the COVID-19 data, right? So they dis-aggregated the data they've showed us the rates for the different populations that we have in our country. And we have Visiant did this as well. Um, and. You know, our, we have just wonderful, smart data scientists at Visiant, and they took all of our data.

[00:14:20] It's over 500 hospitals worth of data and they stratified our COVID-19 data by race. And ethnicity and it, you know, we found what you're hearing in the news, you know, that, uh, black and Brown Americans have higher rates of not only getting COVID, but being hospitalized for COVID and, and having COVID, you know, dying from COVID.

[00:14:45]So, you know, one thing that we did, so talk about, you know, sort of desegregation and investigation are really smart data scientists also added in age. So we have race, ethnicity, and age. And when you, you know, you hear about COVID-19 and you think, you know, those over 65 years old are most effected by it.

[00:15:04]Well, that's true if you're white, but if you're black or Brown, you are more effected by it. Between the years of 20 years old and 65 years old.

[00:15:14] Patrick Swift PhD, MBA, FACHE: [00:15:14] Mm.

[00:15:15]Kellie Goodson, MS, CPXP: [00:15:15] So when you really use the power of data to look and investigate and find you find things that you can actually do something about.

[00:15:25]Patrick Swift PhD, MBA, FACHE: [00:15:25] So what I feel you touching on under all this under these, you know, still waters run deep is we're talking about high quality care because when you're providing a high quality care, leveraging the data. To find evidence-based medicine. Well then when you're practicing evidence-based medicine, um, you're leveraging that data to address what the data's telling you, which happens to tell you this demographic, these, this attention, this demographic needs more of this attention to be mindful of that.

[00:15:58]Uh, and following what the evidence tells you, how to best, best provide care,

[00:16:02] Kellie Goodson, MS, CPXP: [00:16:02] Yeah, and I have another great example for you. Um, just along those lines, um, another, uh, visit member that I've worked with, um, Harbor view medical center out in Seattle, Washington. They've been working on this for decades and they are really sophisticated at this, but when they first started, you know, there, they went to stratify their data in.

[00:16:24]They didn't really have great patient demographic data. So that happens to a lot of organizations. They want to do this and they go try to do it. And it's, it's actually not as easy as it sounds. And then the data doesn't look right. And there has to be investigations around data collection and, and completeness and all that.

[00:16:41]But I tell them, don't let that stop. You. You can still do, you know, work in this area. And that's exactly what Harbor view did, you know, 10 years ago. And they were able to find out that, um, you know, for example, their colonoscopy screening rates for Vietnamese and Spanish speaking patients were way below.

[00:17:01]Those of English speaking patients. So what they were able to do by using the data and finding that out, they were able to provide prep clinics in Vietnamese. You know, they would conduct them in Vietnamese and in Spanish and their, , screening rates went way up and close that gap. So that's another example and that is in a hundred percent in control of a health system.

[00:17:25] You know, a lot of times health systems are asked to do like big things, like build a farmer's market or subsidize housing for patients. And it's so intimidating and they, they. They think about it. They get in that plan phase and they just kind of spin their wheels and they think, how are we going to do this?

[00:17:44] It seems so huge. And I always try and really just bring them back down into what they can control, which is the data that they already have. The patients they're already serving and the processes that they're using to take care of those patients.

[00:18:00] Patrick Swift PhD, MBA, FACHE: [00:18:00] Kelly. I love it. And I have to check. For those watching, um, I've laughed when you touched on the farmer's market. And the reason is that, um, there are organizations that will build the farmer's market just so they can look like they're trying to address community concerns and that's wrong. Uh, you know, th the notion here is that if you're going to build the farmer's market by God, you've got to be taking a look at what Kelly just spoke about, about the data, about how.

[00:18:23] Services are being provided and then being smart about how there is a strategy and plan in place to identify the problems and then identify the solutions, including making a farmer's market aisle. I want to shout out to Newark Beth Israel medical center in Newark, New Jersey, uh, near and dear to my heart.

[00:18:37]And they've done it, right? Yes. There is an amazing farmer's market, but it's more than just the farmer's market. It's about doing the right thing at the right time or the right reason and collectively having a good strategy in place, right?

[00:18:47] Kellie Goodson, MS, CPXP: [00:18:47] Right. Exactly.

[00:18:49] Patrick Swift PhD, MBA, FACHE: [00:18:49] Yeah. Yeah.

[00:18:50]Kellie Goodson, MS, CPXP: [00:18:50] You know, what I, what I want to say to Patrick is, um, you know, a lot of people think this is new. This is new information. Wow. These, you know, these patients are minority. Patients are not, uh, you know, having good outcomes here. This is not new. This is very, uh, long time coming for this to be put in such a spotlight now.

[00:19:09] And I, and I'm glad it is. Um, but back in the eighties and nineties, Even our own health and human services, , commissioned reports around looking at health disparities. And, , everybody knows about the IOM reports, uh, to err is human and crossing the quality chasm, and just shined a light on, um, how our quality in the United States is not up to par with other.

[00:19:35] Other countries. And so that was really the first time it was brought into the public that, Hey, maybe our us healthcare system isn't as good as we thought it was. and equity was brought up in those reports early on, and we've worked really hard as a healthcare system on the six aims that they set forth for us.

[00:19:53]and equity was one of those aims, but really, um, those of us had been working on this for a while. Call it the forgotten aim. So until COVID came around and we really started seeing these disparities in an active situation, you know, people didn't understand that these disparities exist.

[00:20:13]Patrick Swift PhD, MBA, FACHE: [00:20:13] and this applies not just to the us, but around the globe. Right?

[00:20:17]Kellie Goodson, MS, CPXP: [00:20:17] Yes. I mean, it, it, you know, it's, it's everywhere, unfortunately. in it's some of the systems that we have in place, you know, some of the, um, traditional, especially in America, Some of the things that the policies and even, you know, just access to good housing and education really affects, , our minority patients and, and it's it.

[00:20:39] And it manifests itself in these clinical outcomes.

[00:20:43]Patrick Swift PhD, MBA, FACHE: [00:20:43] you know, Kelly applying this on a global scale. , I'm curious about what's the most recent research on disparities that may be specific that your data may be, um, US-centric um, but it also parallels what we in your heart we know is happening on a larger scale. Right. , but can you touch on the more recent, uh, research.

[00:21:03] Kellie Goodson, MS, CPXP: [00:21:03] Yeah. Um, so the agency for healthcare research and quality puts out annual report, right? It's a, report. And I think that's been done for the last 15, 16 years. So if you look at that report, you will see that they, they studied 250 quality measures in that report. And fully 40% of those quality measures, which equals about a hundred quality measures that, , , black and indigenous people of color receive worse care than white people in that many measures.

[00:21:35] So 40%, which is a hundred measures. I mean, this, this is not, this is, you know, this has been going on for a long time and it's even things like the timely administration of medication for a heart attack. So black patients don't receive the right medicine in a timely manner when compared to white patients.

[00:21:54]We can all do something about this, right? We that's where, um, when you talked about that, this is about all of us. It really is.

[00:22:01] Patrick Swift PhD, MBA, FACHE: [00:22:01] And Kelly, I want to add, I'm familiar. I'm familiar with some of that research and that the research I've seen in the studies they've controlled for. Level of education, socioeconomic status, employment status. So even for example, addressing pain management for broken bones or pain management during labor and delivery, when you statistically control for a level of education, um, socioeconomic status, um, uh, employment status, when you pull all that out and just compare apples to apples.

[00:22:30], you're identifying, we're seeing in the data that there is a difference in care, and that's at the core of what we're talking about here. If we're not practicing evidence-based medicine, these kinds of disparities can exist.

[00:22:40] Kellie Goodson, MS, CPXP: [00:22:40] Exactly. And when up.

[00:22:42] Patrick Swift PhD, MBA, FACHE: [00:22:42] do the right thing happens.

[00:22:43] Kellie Goodson, MS, CPXP:: [00:22:43] And when we do the right thing happens, you know, when a patient is lying in a bed, you don't know if they're a CEO of a company, or if they're part of the janitorial staff, like you don't know who these people are in your bed, unless you take the time to get to know them. Um,

[00:22:57] Patrick Swift PhD, MBA, FACHE: [00:22:57] out to EVs. Shout

[00:22:58] Kellie Goodson, MS, CPXP: [00:22:58] yeah,

[00:22:58] Patrick Swift PhD, MBA, FACHE: [00:22:58] the janitorial staff narrative. They are the tip of the spear when it comes to infection control and addressing COVID. So a shout out to EVs. Go on, please.

[00:23:06]Kellie Goodson, MS, CPXP: [00:23:06] Um, so, you know, it's, it's just, this is, you know, of course, near, near and dear to my heart, my husband's an African-American man, and I want him to get the best health care that he can get. Um, my children are biracial. So, you know, this is really, um, you know, at the heart of what we're doing is treating humans as humans and giving everyone the best care possible,

[00:23:27] Patrick Swift PhD, MBA, FACHE: [00:23:27] absolutely. And the data we just touched on, you touched on, um, is government looking at disparities. So what about in the healthcare system perspective? What are they doing? What's the latest.

[00:23:39] Kellie Goodson, MS, CPXP: [00:23:39] You know, it's interesting because healthcare systems do have what they need to do, do this. Um, I gave you examples of Novant health and, uh, Harbor view medical center. Uh, and actually in, you mentioned at the top, I led a affinity group for CMS around health equity. Uh co-lead that with the New York state, um, health foundation and we, uh, got a big group of people together and we.

[00:24:04] Created what we call the health equity organizational assessment. So it looked at seven categories of data collection, data collection, training validation, data stratification. Uh, we looked at the cultural, uh, and organizational structures in place at hospitals to see how prepared they were to identify and address disparities.

[00:24:25]So, , we had over 2300 hospitals, , participate in this HEOA. Health equity, organizational assessment. And we found that, although they collect the data, they really don't validate it. Um, when they do stratify it, , they really don't know what to do with it and they don't really communicate about it. So it's, it's, there's, there's a real need here for hospitals to just start digging in and doing this.

[00:24:54] It, it, you know, it's something they're

[00:24:56] Patrick Swift PhD, MBA, FACHE: [00:24:56] Kelly, they're afraid. I've sat in the boardroom. I've sat in these conversations and it's a political conversation. It's a challenging conversation to collect the data. And then the fear that people have over recognizing, well, what if the data shows that we're not doing a good job and then how do we manage that?

[00:25:12] Number one, the feeling of powerlessness, what we, what to do. And, um, there are things that can be done right now and perhaps it may not be in-house and that's part of it is organizations. Considering getting help from outside counsel outside support to get some input on what to do with the data they've collected, the information they have.

[00:25:32] And I know for example, the kind of work that you do, Kelly, but, um, so how do I, how can they address in addition to the excellent kind of work you do? What are the barriers they can tackle to address these problems?

[00:25:43] Kellie Goodson, MS, CPXP: [00:25:43] Yeah. So, you know, what they need to do is they just need to get started. Stop spinning your wheels in that plan phase, take your data, do the analysis, and don't be afraid of it. I mean, if anything now is the time to do this. Right. It's

[00:25:56] Patrick Swift PhD, MBA, FACHE: [00:25:56] know I say that word a lot, but I'm needed. This is the time to do it.

[00:26:01] Kellie Goodson, MS, CPXP: [00:26:01] time to do it. Um, and look to others like, uh, um, I'm going to give another example. rush university in Chicago, um, they posted, um, their equity report. They called it a health equity report and they have this beautiful report that lays out all the disparities that they found. So just do an online

[00:26:21] Patrick Swift PhD, MBA, FACHE: [00:26:21] bold and brave.

[00:26:22] Kellie Goodson, MS, CPXP: [00:26:22] Very bold, very brave. It to me is the gold standard of what all hospitals and health systems should be looking at. It's it's amazing. I cannot say it enough. I would, if I had a magic wand, I would wave that around and have that be a requirement, just like a cha or maybe it's a, becomes a part of the, and a, the community health needs assessment that, uh, hospitals have to do every three years.

[00:26:47]It's it's amazing.

[00:26:49] Patrick Swift PhD, MBA, FACHE: [00:26:49] so you work at rush. Uh, you can be proud and celebrate that and hashtag it, celebrate it. Kudos. Great job. And if you don't take a look at your organization, And I don't care if you're in the C-suite your at the VP or director or a physician or working in finance or working in environmental services or working in nursing or working in physical therapy, it goes on and on and on.

[00:27:12]It doesn't matter where you are in the organization. Take a look at your organization. Is it doing something like that? And if they are please for God's sakes, say thank you to the leadership. And if they're not pay attention, And is there another organization and your town, that's doing the right thing that aligns more with these kinds of values that is doing the right thing for the right reason, the right time.

[00:27:37] Then maybe that's somewhere you want to be working because they really valuing not just the dollar, not just the, the, the, the business of healthcare, but they're honoring the, the practice of. Chair carry toss. Your they're honoring the practice of caring for human beings, caring for other human beings.

[00:27:56] And I know you would resonate with that kind of language. Right? Right. Kelly.

[00:27:59] Kellie Goodson, MS, CPXP: [00:27:59] Yeah, very much. So. I mean, this is just a, you know, uh, humans taking care of humans and, and, you know, it's, it's as much of an art. It is a science. And I just, you know, I just think now is the time, um, if you've been afraid to do this in the past, do it now engage patients and families invite them into your organization through P facts, and then, you know, take a look at your outcomes data, just pick one pick readmissions.

[00:28:27] I promise you, you will find something in readmissions, but you could look at, um, your, you know, Your care for diabetic patients, your care for our hypertensive patients, you will find some things that very specific things that you can fix. I promise you.

[00:28:41]Patrick Swift PhD, MBA, FACHE: [00:28:41] Love it love it. Kelly. My favorite question to ask my guests is if you were standing at the top of the world and you had the attention of all the healthcare folks, the docs and nurses and finance folks, and everyone who works in healthcare, and they looked up and you had their attention and you could say something, what would you say to them?

[00:29:00] Kellie Goodson, MS, CPXP: [00:29:00] No, I think first, I would say thank you, actually. Um, this has been such a trying time for everyone and, you know, healthcare. Professionals truly are our heroes. Um, it's so hard in, in when we say these things and we talk, we know this is not easy. Uh, we know this is difficult. So as Patrick said, you know, reach out, reach out for help. Um, you know, we're all gonna try to make this better for everyone, not only patients. And we want to reduce, uh, disparities, but we want our. Staff to find joy in their work and meaning and, and be happy. So, um, I think I would say thank you. And that we know this is not easy and, and we are.

[00:29:40]Patrick Swift PhD, MBA, FACHE: [00:29:40] Amen to that you are here to help and I'm grateful for all the work you've done with, with the work you've done with CMS and the P facts and the. Then on the national level and you've been inspiration at, uh, uh, international conferences. So what you shared here, , you've been sharing in conferences, uh, I've been touched by your leadership and, and really appreciate your thought leadership on a, on a global scale because you, you, uh, your principles and practices are, um, models for how to think about what we do.

[00:30:08]Um, but also how to feel, uh, connect to why we're doing what we do, and then be empowered to make that difference. Kelly. So thank you. If folks were interested in following up with you, um, how could they go about doing that?

[00:30:18]Kellie Goodson, MS, CPXP: [00:30:18] I think the best way probably is through LinkedIn. Um, I do have a page on LinkedIn and that's probably the best way to get in touch with me.

[00:30:26] Patrick Swift PhD, MBA, FACHE: [00:30:26] okay. Well, I will include that in the show notes and, um, gosh, Kelly, we've covered a lot of topics here, a lot of ground and learn so much. So I just want to say thank you for, for being a guest on the show. All you share the, the heart and passion for what you do and, and, uh, I'm grateful for your being a guest here.

[00:30:44]Kellie Goodson, MS, CPXP: [00:30:44] Thank you for having me, Patrick, it's been real fun.