259. God Speaks to His Kids . . . Here’s How with Chris Allen

259. God Speaks to His Kids . . . Here's How with Chris Allen

 

**Transcription Below**

 

“My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me.” John 10:27 NIV

 

Questions and Topics We Discuss:

1. How can we actually disciple our children to listen to God and recognize when they are hearing from the Holy Spirit as well?
2. You've stated, "If you want to hear him, cultivate wonder." Will you elaborate?
3. What are some follow up questions we can ask our kids to actually put this into practice?

 

Chris Allen is married to Rachael and they have three kids. Chris has a masters degree in spiritual formation from Richmont Graduate University and he is a trained spiritual director. Previously Chris was a pastor in full time ministry for many years, but he is also a technology entrepreneur and is currently working in the technology group at Chick-fil-A. 

 

Other Episode Mentioned from The Savvy Sauce:

 

231 Stories Series: Faith Building Miracles with Dave Pridemore

 

Thank You to Our Sponsor:  Sam Leman Eureka

 

Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook or Instagram or Our Website

 

Please help us out by sharing this episode with a friend, leaving a 5-star rating and review, and subscribing to this podcast!

 

Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)

 

Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”

 

Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”

 

Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.” 

 

Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.” 

 

Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.” 

 

Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.” 

 

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”

 

Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” 

 

Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”

 

Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”

 

Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”

 

Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”

 

Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“

 

Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“

 

Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”

 

**Transcription**

 

Music: (0:00 – 0:09)

 

Laura Dugger: (0:10 - 1:36)

Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host, Laura Duggar, and I'm so glad you're here. 

 

The principles of honesty and integrity that Sam Leman founded his business on continue today, over 55 years later, at Sam Leman Chevrolet Eureka.

 

Owned and operated by the Birchie family, Sam Leman and Eureka appreciates the support they've received from their customers all over Central Illinois and beyond. Visit them today at samlemanchevy.com. 

 

Chris Allen is my guest today.

 

He has a master's degree in spiritual formation from Richmond Graduate University, and he's also a trained spiritual director. Previously, Chris was in full-time ministry as a pastor for many years, but he's also a technology entrepreneur, and currently he's working in the technology group at Chick-fil-A. Chris and my husband, Mark, actually go way back, so I've also invited Mark to come along with me today to interview Chris as we ask him more about cultivating wonder in our children and helping them to understand how to hear from God so that they can enjoy a conversational relationship with the Lord.

 

Here's our chat. Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, Mark, and Chris.

 

Mark Dugger: (1:38 - 1:39)

Hey, thanks. Great to be here. 

 

Chris Allen: (1:39 – 1:41)

Yeah, it's great to be here.

 

Laura Dugger: (1:42 - 1:48)

Well, I just want to start off and have both of you just take us back to how you two initially met.

 

Chris Allen: (1:49 - 2:20)

Oh, gosh, that's dangerous, Laura. Are you sure you want to do that? Well, Mark and I met in, I think it was fourth grade. But I've kind of known for not having the best memory, so I could have that off.

 

Maybe Mark will correct me, but yeah, starting somewhere in maybe sixth grade, we started kind of being pretty close and spent a lot, a lot of years together through middle school and high school and into adulthood, so it's been a while. Yeah, Mark?

 

Mark Dugger: (2:20 - 2:32)

I'm pretty sure we were in the nursery together at church growing up, so clearly you meant more to me than I meant to you. I think is what it's coming down to, but that's okay.

 

Chris Allen: (2:33 - 2:38)

I know that's been a theme in our relationship, but you are very important to me, Mark.

 

Mark Dugger: (2:39 - 2:58)

No, I just remember a mutual friend of ours moved away, and I think that was the catalyst for us starting to hang out. You lived right behind him. I would go to his house all the time, and then when he moved away, that was kind of the catalyst for us to start hanging out, and then I feel like we were pretty much inseparable from then on.

 

Chris Allen: (2:59 - 3:07)

See, it's always good to have at least someone who remembers, but I do know that you're important to me today.

 

Mark Dugger: (3:08 - 3:10)

Well, thank you, Chris.

 

Laura Dugger: (3:11 - 3:34)

Well, and it's been awesome just to hear the stories of growing up together and being close through all the years, but you guys also had so many unique opportunities. As I hear how both of you had a faith at a reasonably young age, so I'd love to hear from both of you, what were some of your experiences through those formative years that grew your faith?

 

Chris Allen: (3:39 - 5:27)

Yeah. Looking back on those years is kind of interesting for me. I became captivated by Jesus around the age of 13, and it really kind of consumed my time, at least mostly, and not because I needed to or had to.

 

It was I wanted to. In our church community, mostly our youth group, just kind of became honestly where I spent most of my time. Mark and I kind of experienced that together. So, I think we had a lot of time there.

 

We had a really tight-knit community. And then the other big thing was pretty early, we both kind of got invited into participating in God's work in different ways. We would lead things at our youth group.

 

We started leading things. Other youth groups started having us come in, and we had a worship band, and we would facilitate study and some teaching. But looking back at that, I'm like, oh my gosh, I can't believe they let me lead anything.

 

And so, it really, for me, illuminates how God has chosen to work in our lives. He invites us to participate in His kingdom. There is no qualification for that.

 

It's just as we are. And then He uses our participation not only to create fruit, like others are impacted by it, but He also shapes us in the process. And so, I think that's always true.

 

It's true today of all of us, but I can see it a little bit more clearly when I look back at that season. Yeah.

 

Mark Dugger: (5:29 - 6:20)

Well, Chris, you glossed over the fact about talking about the praise band that we were part of and how I was really the core being the manager, aka sound manager. It was awful. I was literally there with no musical inclination whatsoever, and I was only there by association because you guys were awesome musicians, leading worship in incredible ways.

 

And I was the tagalong who we would do sound checks, and you would be like, “hey, Mark, can you turn up the left monitor? No, no, no, no, not that one. The other monitor. No, wait, no. You know what? I'm just going to come back and just do it for you.”

 

And so really, I was the glue that held everyone together. You didn't really talk about that part.

 

Chris Allen: (6:21 - 6:51)

Yeah. I'm so glad you brought it up, Mark. Yeah, there was a lot of trips running from the stage to the soundboard to do the thing I was trying to get Mark to do.

 

But no, Mark, you were incredibly supportive in those years. All that was accurate, except for the amazing musician part. We maybe could say that about him, but for me, I think I knew just enough to maybe get through the song.

 

Mark Dugger: (6:52 - 8:45)

Well, I was going to say, in all seriousness, there was one particular retreat I remember specifically, and you let me do the closing message at the very end, and it was going to be on the Prodigal Son. And I remember being like, this is one of those cool experiences that's still surreal to me that came in. I felt like I was kind of the closing deal. And so, I remember there being a lot of pride involved in that.

 

And I remember hearing about the Prodigal Son and knowing that story really well. And I came in just thinking, all right, I'm just going to just bring it and it's going to be amazing. And all of these kids are going to come and know the Lord.

 

And I remember even in my arrogance and pride, God still shined through. And I remember getting off that stage when I was about to walk off. I remember just, I even like forgot my words at one point and walked off the stage.

 

And it was absolutely, I felt embarrassed, and I felt like I had just failed God through my pride and arrogance. And then all of a sudden, you came in and kind of rescued this amazing moment and really closed out that message. And I'll just never forget how shaping that was for me, that seeing even in spite of arrogance and pride and fault and sin of my own, that God can still use those things for His good.

 

And I just remember that being such a shaping moment for me. And really just, I think it further grew our friendship just to see, you just kind of pick me up in that way and answer God's call and have the courage just to kind of lead through it there. So, I just remember that being just a profound moment in my faith and growth.

 

Chris Allen: (8:47 - 9:01)

Yeah. Well, that's a great example of just the kinds of things we got to experience at that age. And I think it was really formative for both of us to get to do that in middle school and high school years.

 

Laura Dugger: (9:03 - 9:28)

And I've just gotten to know this over the years, hearing all of these stories of the two of you and Adam Johnson, who was part of the band. And it's incredible to be so close in friendship still, all three of you, and now they're awesome wives. And so, switching gears though, from the past now, Chris, can you catch us up on your current life stage with your family as well?

 

Chris Allen: (9:29 - 10:34)

Well, the biggest news is we just got a new pup. I don't know if you can hear him barking in the background, but Walt is our newest member. He's a little Shih poos.

 

So, he is a fluffy monster, which is wonderful when you're petting him, not so great when you have to pay for the grooming. But it's actually, it's been really good. We've talked about getting a dog for a lot of years, and our kids are just at the perfect season to soak it up.

 

So, we have three kids, 11, 9, and 6 (Ryan, Ramsey and Harvey) and my wife, Rachel. We are coming up on 16 years of marriage here this fall. So yeah, that's the season we're in.

 

We're having a lot of fun. It's like, you know, people keep telling me like, you're in the golden years. And I feel like we're actually experiencing it and enjoying it for the most part.

 

Of course, there's always, always the things. But yes, that's where we are.

 

Mark Dugger: (10:35 - 11:23)

So, I want to go back here recently. We were on a drive down to Atlanta, and our kids love their phone conversations with Uncle Chris on the way down. And I just remember one specific instance where we were talking to you and asking you about this experience you had to, you were asked to lead a retreat for Ryan's school.

 

And we were just blown away by what you were learning, what you were experiencing, and then especially how you talked about growing in faith and really building a life of relationship with God and your kids. So, do you mind kind of just sharing us a little synopsis of that talk and what that looked like?

 

Chris Allen: (11:25 - 19:12)

Yes, I'd be happy to. But first, I feel like the audience should know that most of my calls with your girls in the van are Uncle Chris trying to sell them a pizza or order a pizza with random things on it or making up like random songs or being a random character. So, it's mostly joking conversation.

 

And I'm not actually their uncle. We've just given me that title because we're close. But yeah, that's most of our conversations.

 

But yeah, I got invited to be the speaker at the fifth-grade retreat for my son's class. So, it was like a three-day retreat for their grade at his school. And as I was wrestling with like, okay, well, what, you know, what am I going to share?

 

I don't do that sort of thing that often. So, I'm usually excited when I get the opportunity to, but was just kind of sorting out, all right, what, like, God, what do you want to share with them? And this thought, actually, I should say, this was planned way in advance, and like, like, six to eight months in advance.

 

And it was kind of like in the back of my mind for a lot of months. And I had nothing like I had no clarity about what I was gonna talk about. And of course, you know, as you get closer and closer, you know, it starts to like, be a little bit more on your mind.

 

But I kept coming back to this thought of like, no, like, you know, God will bring clarity when he's ready. And trying to hold on to that thought. And then as we got like two weeks out, this thought just came, it was like, what if they began a conversational life with God at fifth grade?

 

Like, I've been working on this project that's kind of about how to help adults develop a conversational life with God. And before this moment, like I had not put these two opportunities together. But once that thought came, like, it just lit me up.

 

Because obviously, I have three kids that are kind of in that stage. And, you know, we're constantly pursuing them spiritually and trying to help them explore who God is. But that's not necessarily easy.

 

And obviously, trying to help them develop their own life with God, which is not easy, you know, they're kids, and they see things differently. And so for me, it was like, wow, what if they started now? You know, for adults, I think it's really hard.

 

Like prayer can mean a lot of things. I think most adults feel like prayer or conversation with God is somewhat hard. It's something they struggle with, typically something they want more of, but maybe don't feel super successful in.

 

So, the thought was, you know if you start in fifth grade, what would that change? Um, so I kind of went on a journey of trying to think about how could I help them? How could I help them explore this?

 

How could I help them start a conversational life with God? And that that kind of ended up being, you know, what the series of talks that I gave throughout the retreat were. So, my second thing was around like, if you want to hear him, you've got to cultivate wonder, which I'll come back to in just a second.

 

And then my third thing is, was teaching them to pay attention to their thought life, which we can dive into more. But the wonder piece, it may not be obvious, like why wonder, you know, why is that important? Um, so let me just speak to that for a second.

 

So, uh, the way I like to think about wonder is if you've ever been snorkeling in like the ocean, ideally in really clear water, uh, there's this moment, like, right. So, like you go out on a boat, you get to the spot where you're going to snorkel, you've got all your gear, you get in the water. And there's this moment where you're, you're about to go underwater, but before you do your head's still above the water, right.

 

And in this moment, you're like so close to beginning to see this whole new world that's underneath the water. Uh, but for this moment, your eyeline is above the water and you're really like, that's all you see. Like you really, you really can't, like, if you look down, you just see kind of like this fuzzy picture, right.

 

This distorted kind of water picture. Uh, but you can see for miles and miles across the top of the water, you see the sky, like there's so much above the water that you can see. Right.

 

And then you put your goggles on, and you drop your head down like six inches. And all of a sudden there's this whole other world, uh, that you really didn't have access to before that moment, right. You couldn't really see what was going on down there until you put your head under the water.

 

Uh, but then all of a sudden you start to see, you know, depths of the ocean. Uh, you know, reefs, all these, you know, different colors, all these different fish, wildlife, you know. Um, and then the same is kind of true when you're underwater. Like if you go underwater and look up, you can like see a vague color of the sky, but it's kind of all distorted.

 

So, I like this analogy because it kind of, it's like you almost have like two totally separate kingdoms, right? Like the underwater world and the above water world, they are right next to each other. There is this point at which they touch, but they operate so differently.

 

Like, you know, everything underwater is different, right? You can't breathe, like oxygen is different. Uh, you know, uh, the way you move is different.

 

You got to swim, you can't walk. Like the way things work underwater is different than how they work out of water. And I think the kingdom of God in the kingdom of earth is kind of similar.

 

Like there is a threshold at which they touch, but they, they operate so differently. Like the kingdom of God is just different. It's different than what we know in the kingdom of earth.

 

So essentially, uh, I kind of see like all of life is us, you know, trying to, or working towards participating with God in the kingdom. His kingdom, uh, while we are operating here on earth and the kingdom of earth. Um, and so wonder for me is, is like the goggles, uh, that help us move back and forth between kingdom of earth and kingdom of God. Uh, like when you put the goggles on, you know, you can, you can open your eyes underwater depending on the water, uh, but you can see so much better with, with goggles.

 

And so, um, wonder for me is like, is the vehicle that helps me move towards the kingdom of God. So, um, I'll, I'll, I'll share more about kind of like how I talked with the kids about that, but God speaks to his kids. If you want to hear them cultivate wonder.

 

And then lastly, pay attention to your thoughts. Uh, so that's, that's kind of what we talked about.

 

Laura Dugger: (19:14 - 21:09)

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Well, and I love all of those. So let's just slow it down and kind of go through all three, beginning with that first statement that you make that God speaks to his kids.

 

And from previous conversations, I know that Mark and I agree with you on that, but not everybody does. Even those who are in the faith community may not agree that God is still speaking to his children. And so, what would you say is the basis for your belief on that?

 

Chris Allen: (21:11 - 23:18)

Yeah, that's a big question. Well, you know, I think, I think it's pretty clear in scripture. Like, you know, we have in John 10 where he says, “I'm the good shepherd.

 

I know my sheep and my sheep will know, they'll know my voice. They listen to me.” Like, and if you read that section, it's not only that, like, he speaks, it's that like, it almost sounds like it's easy.

 

Like the sheep don't have to work to know who their master is like, or the shepherd is like, they know his voice. you know, like when the shepherd calls, the sheep can instantly know if it's his voice or not. you know, quick, funny story. I wasn't planning on telling you, but my wife is an identical twin. And when we first started dating her and her twin shared a phone, a cell phone.

 

So we're in college, we start dating. I would call my girlfriend, not knowing if she was going to answer the phone or if her sister was going to answer the phone. And I had to know, just based on the tone of their voice, which one it was could get in big trouble if I get this wrong.

 

Right. So, you know, I learned, I learned her voice. Right.

 

And the same is true, obviously, with like our kids, like they can tell the difference between your voice and some other parents voice. Right. Did you always get it right?

 

Did I always get it right? There was a few times where it was a little hard. Usually a lot of times, like there was context clues, you know, like just by the way they would talk to me, but sometimes like Rebecca would answer and just say like, “Hey, and you know.” it's like, that's all I got to work with is a “Hey, you know”?

 

And, you know, I wasn't quite sure for a moment. So, I would ask a question to get more talking going, and then I would figure out who this was. So, yeah.

 

Mark Dugger: (23:19 - 23:21)

That's good. Sorry, I derailed you there.

 

Laura Dugger: (23:22 - 23:44)

I'll bring us back because I think that's so profound, even how you said context clues. So, I'll bring it back. You were talking first, John 10:14.

 

“I am the good shepherd. I know my sheep and my sheep know me”. And then also a few verses later in 27, where he says, “my sheep listen to my voice. I know them and they follow me.”

 

Chris Allen: (23:47 - 25:06)

Yeah, I think. And then I think also like Jesus modeled this throughout his whole life. Like we would, you know, I and the Father are one, He would often retreat for time with the Father.

 

He seemed very clear on what the Father was saying. I mean, I realized there's a divinity gap between looking at how Jesus operated and maybe how we are. But then He also says, “like, it's better for Me to leave because I'm going to send my Helper, the Holy Spirit.”

 

And I think we see in that language, an even more intimate relationship. Like Jesus is in, like God is in us, you know? So, I don't think like when I study scripture, I don't think God intended for it to be hard for us to hear Him.

 

Which is why, you know, I'm interested in this topic. And as a lot of people that I interact, do struggle with that, and I struggle with that in my own life. I don't want to just accept that, you know?

 

So that's kind of what motivates me in this topic. It gets me excited to talk about it.

 

Mark Dugger: (25:09 - 25:12)

That's cool. You have something else you wanted to say?

 

Chris Allen: (25:13 - 31:40)

Well, I was kind of going back to the retreat. So, I think, you know, one of the biggest hurdles when I was in with the kids, as well as I think with us, even as adults, is first just acknowledging that we don't notice everything. Like there's things happening around us that we just simply don't notice.

 

If you're like me, like I feel like I'm fairly observant. And I do notice a lot of things. And I typically kind of feel like I'm right about things, you know, or I feel like my take is kind of on point.

 

It can be hard to admit this, but the reality is like there's so much happening around us that we actually don't notice. So, when I was talking to the kids, this was like the first thing that I tried to establish. So, I had this opening slide that said, if you're reading this, put your finger on your nose.

 

And so, as I come up to talk, I mean, I'm just introducing myself for the first time. Hey, everyone, I'm so glad to be here. My name is Chris. Mr. Chris, you know, and I'm starting to talk to them, you know, leading into our time together. The whole time behind me is this slide. If you're reading this, put your finger on your nose. And so, as I'm talking, you know, certain kids started putting their finger on their nose, but as I went on for like five or 10 minutes, right.

 

And in the end, you know, maybe a third of them had their finger on their nose. And so, I was like, you know, the first thing I want to establish with us together is an idea that there's things happening around you that you do not notice. And to convince you that that is true.

 

I want you to look around and notice your friends who have their finger on their nose. And the reason is because of the slide behind me that you haven't noticed yet. Right.

 

And so, it was a really fun way just to help them go like, oh, interesting. I guess I don't notice everything. And then we kind of moved to this idea of taking on a posture of curiosity.

 

And so, I was like, I want you to imagine that we or I was like, does anybody know a name of a famous detective? You know, they're shouting out names and stuff. So, we landed on Sherlock Holmes.

 

OK, well, Sherlock Holmes was here in the room with us, and he was trying to solve a mystery. What do you think he would do? And, you know, hands start going up.

 

He'd look for clues. Like, yeah, that's right. He'd look around.

 

You know, he's trying to figure out clues to solve the mystery. Right. And so, cultivating this posture of curiosity of like, OK, if things are happening around me that I don't notice.

 

And I want to notice them, like, what would that look like? I've got to start getting curious about my life, about the things that are already in it. And why are they there?

 

And so that's really kind of at the root of this idea of cultivating wonder is looking at your life and the things that are already in it and wondering about them. I'll give you an example. Our oldest, Ryan, is going into middle school, a transition which there's been a little bit of energy about in our house.

 

But near the end of fifth grade, Ryan was a little bit unsure what school he wanted to go to. He wasn't sure if he wanted the school that they are in which goes K through 12. So, he had the option of staying there.

 

But he also had the option of potentially moving to a different school. And he had some friends that are going to move. And that was kind of a catalyst for a lot of the conversation.

 

So, for a lot of that time, you know, just to be transparent, there was a lot of worry and anxiety as we were trying to discern, like, which school should he go to? And, you know, you've got layers that you've got my take on, you've got Rachel's take on it, you've got Ryan's take on it, right? And all of course, his parents, like, you know, we don't want to just make a call and force him, you know. We really want him to be bought in.

 

And at the same time, we have a sense of what we think. And so for a while, we were just kind of doing what I call wandering. Wwe were just wandering around within this topic, like, you know, Rachel would feel anxious about certain things, I would feel certain things, you know, Ryan's feeling certain things. And we're just kind of ping ponging around, wandering around.

 

And then one day, it finally started to shift towards wonder for me. And it was just like, you know, I wonder what God is up to in Ryan's life. Like, I wonder what God has in mind for Ryan, as he's moving into middle school.

 

I wonder which environment might be best for him, you know, to shape him in this next season. And instead of like latching on to the pieces that we're maybe concerned about and obsessing about those or thinking about those, just moving towards wonder, even though it doesn't solve anything, it doesn't change anything, like the situation is still the same. But it begins to change how I hold that thing.

 

And before I know it, I am interacting with my Father God about this thing that I was just worried about. And so, it's like this transformation of taking the, because here's the thing, this thing is already happening in my life. I'm already spending energy on it.

 

Like, why not let it be the catalyst for how I'm going to interact with God? And so cultivating wonder, curiosity, why is this happening? What is God up to?

 

As I mentioned already, for me, it's kind of been the gateway for me to put on goggles and to begin to see more of why things might be happening. Or what God's up to and just hold them differently than I was previously.

 

Mark Dugger: (31:40 - 31:55)

So, I love this topic and thinking about it. How can we then disciple our children to listen to God and know for themselves, like, and recognize when they're actually hearing from the Holy Spirit?

 

Chris Allen: (31:56 - 39:42)

Yeah. Yeah. Well, I think, I don't think there's a perfect formula.

 

I think it's something we just cultivate. Some of that's going to depend on the individual. I think each child's going to be a little bit different, but I think this idea of starting to notice things is a key one and just helping them think about or acknowledge that they're not going to see everything.

 

Another little tool that I use with the students was those magic eye things. I don't know if you remember this from our childhood, but they had books and posters with these pictures of, like, when you look at it from a distance, it's just like a lot of little random things or like a confusing drawing at most. But if you look at it a certain way, right, you start to see this picture within the picture.

 

Right. And so, we used that. It was awesome.

 

We had like a contest to see who could see it first and they got prizes and stuff. But you know, it's basically like we have to fix our eyes. Right.

 

We have to learn how to see the unseen, essentially, in the same way. I mean, those posters are actually a little tricky for a lot of people. Like if you don't see it, you don't see it.

 

Like, you know, you have to learn a certain like once you get the hang of it and you position yourself in relationship to it just right. Right. You can start to see like the horse or whatever jump off the page.

 

But, you know, learning to see what is unseen is not easy. But here's the really, really cool part that I think is really important for kids. It's like God made them for this.

 

And, you know, not just kids like us to like God made us for this. Your mind is already doing the things that is needed for this. And so, at the retreat to help them like understand what I mean by this, I basically wanted to show them all the things that they already know that they never learned.

 

And you may not know what I mean by that, but basically we played this game where I had all these logos from different famous brands. But I intentionally chose brands that were like adult brands, like insurance, Allstate, you know, State Farm. And so, we had their slogans or their logos in some cases, and they had to guess what it was.

 

They knew them all. And it's like, you know, I would make jokes, of course, in between they get off. They got Allstate.

 

And I'm like, I would go up to the kids who guessed it right. I'd be like, so tell me, do you have auto insurance with Allstate? Or is it home insurance?

 

What is what's your coverage amount? You know, what is your policy like? Just to drive home the point, it's like, you know, they're not a customer.

 

There's no reason they should know who Allstate is. But they are watching TV, they're driving around, they're doing different things in life. And of course, they have absorbed, their mind has learned what Allstate is without them even trying, right.

 

And so, your mind is doing a lot of this work already. It's already noticing everything around you. It's already learning and processing all this information.

 

Dallas Willard talks about kind of the role of the mind. A lot of times, we think of the mind as a generator of thoughts. And this is a pretty big position or adjustment that I think is important.

 

But instead of viewing the mind as a generator of thoughts, viewing it more as a processor of thoughts. Because reality is like, you didn't make up Allstate, you didn't make up the brand, the kid didn't make up the brand. You just processed it, you know, and that's what your mind is doing with most information.

 

And so when we start to view the mind as a processor, you now have a category for okay, there's all these other things that are basically submitting things to our minds. And you know, that's all the things we've been talking about, right? That's billboards, that's TV, that's us, like we're submitting thoughts to our kids' minds.

 

But you know, everything they read, everything they look, everything around them is constantly submitting thoughts to their minds. And their mind is just processing away. But it does it all automatically, like that's what the mind was made for.

 

So, for me, the kind of good news in all this, even though I think some of these thoughts can sound kind of foreign, or maybe hard to go figure out, it really is how we were designed. Like it's, you know, God designed our minds to interact with him. He designed our minds to be able to recognize thoughts that are coming from him.

 

So, when we shift the mind to a processor, really, that point is just about learning to notice those thoughts, okay, as they come in, right? And as you start to notice them, you can notice, you know, kind of the nature of them or the characteristic of them. And God, the thoughts that God might be presenting to your mind versus the thoughts that other sources might be presenting to your mind, over time starts to become clearer and clearer and clearer.

 

So maybe just like a practical example would be that, like, sometimes when we're processing things with our kids, if they're feeling a certain way, I might ask them, like, hey, what are you thinking about this? Or what's the most, like, what's the last thought you had about this? And it's like, oh, I'm worried, you know, I was thinking about, you know, my buddy, how he won't like this thing, you know. And it's like, oh, okay, that's why you don't want to go, you know, to that place, because your buddy doesn't like it. You know, it's like, but oftentimes, I will go to the, I'll go to thoughts, and ask them about their thoughts, what's the most recent thought to understand what emotions might be happening now. But I think even just talking about thoughts as a thing, right?

 

Like, what thought did you have, is really helpful to start, because a lot of times, I think the default is we kind of like assume we are our thoughts, we are one with our thoughts. And this can get really dangerous. I think, especially for young men, but really for all of us, because we have a lot of thoughts that are not honoring to God or to each other, right?

 

And so, if those are me, then that says a lot about who I am, right? So separating ourselves from our thoughts, positioning the mind as the processor of thoughts, not only gives room for the idea that God is presenting thoughts to our minds, but it also gives room for the idea that the enemy or the world or these other things are presenting thoughts to our minds. So just because we might have that thought doesn't mean it's us, which is a big thing as well.

 

Laura Dugger: (39:43 - 40:52)

I love that because, okay, so going back to that first point, so God speaks to His children, and I think it's helpful for me just to have that articulated. That has been my experience, that one of the ways God speaks to me is through my thoughts, and so sharing that with our children as well. And something, when I'm verbally processing then later, if I'm wondering and I'm questioning, where did this thought come from?

 

Where did this originate? Mark's question to me will always be, whose voice is that? And I think it's another way of what you're saying, because it could be culture, it could be God, it could be the enemy's voice, and that it is through our thoughts.

 

But then if we are now, you've recommended also thinking about what our thoughts are. So, thinking about our thinking and pursuing that listening stance. So that kind of leads into the next point where you share that you say, if you want to hear Him, cultivate wonder.

 

So, can you just elaborate on that?

 

Chris Allen: (40:55 - 45:09)

Yes. So well, let me also mention, so I mentioned Dallas Willard, he has like a quote that I really love around this. And I'll just go ahead and say it for those that might be thinking it, like, did you really present all this to kids?

 

Yes, I did. I wrestled so much going into this with like, this is too much, like it's too deep, it's too much content. I almost changed a lot of the talk, like literally like five minutes before it.

 

But I kind of landed on this, you know what, and there was a lot of adults in the room, it wasn't aimed at them, but it was just like, my job is to just throw it out there. And like, if one kid just grabs onto something, you know, so yes, I did. I did give this to kids, but I realized it's a lot.

 

So, but Willard says, he says, generally, it is much more important to cultivate the quiet inward space of a constant listening than to always be approaching God for specific direction. And he goes on to say, in the still small voice of God, we are given a message that bears the stamp of his personality quite clearly. And in a way, we will learn to recognize it.

 

How the message comes, this is kind of the biggest part right here: how the message comes is diminished almost to the vanishing point, taking the form of thoughts that are our thoughts, though these thoughts are not from us. And so, when I first read this, it was like, oh my gosh, like, I think I've experienced that. But he is putting words to something I, you know, maybe hadn't fully acknowledged that like, this, this is God speaking to me, you know. So, I think a lot of times we, we write off our thoughts as just like, oh, it's just my lunch, you know, or whatever. But I, I really believe, and Willard, you know, believes that one of the primary ways that God speaks to his people, and when we say children, I don't mean children in this case, not like the age of someone, but anyone, um, any person, like, this is a, at least a huge part of how God speaks to them is, is through their thought life.

 

And so, for me, like, as I, as I've started to walk in this, and, um, take, pay more attention to my thoughts, and then actually, like, hold them like, okay, well, what if this was God speaking? You know, it's, it's changed my personal interaction with God, um, for sure. So, I think for most people, if you're not already practicing this, it can feel inaccessible.

 

It can feel hard. It's like, oh my gosh, like, are you telling me that I have, like, I have to change everything. Like, I have to start recognizing all my, like, if you're not already doing that, um, and I think that's where cultivate wonder comes in. Is moving towards just a posture of curiosity, moving towards a posture of wonder, of, um, when you start to notice a thought, like, just hold it out there.

 

It's like, oh, that's interesting. I just had that thought. Hmm.

 

And you just think about it. You just wonder about it, right? You don't really have to do anything.

 

Like in the beginning of this, you don't have to do anything with it. Like, just look at it, hold it, name it, and just wonder about it. Like, I think that is the first step.

 

And so, I think there's little ways we can help our kids with that, right? Just as we're helping them process things, as we're talking through things, um, we can call out what we think we hear them say, you know, and just say, Hey, it sounds like you had this thought. Is that right?

 

You know? Um, and just the way we, you know, they can pick things up quickly. So, the way that we teach them to process what they're thinking about, um, is a huge gift to them.

 

If we can help them name their thoughts and hold them out.

 

Laura Dugger: (45:09 - 47:07)

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Well, and just want to speak to some of this as well. So, when you were sharing about children, meaning more than actual age children, I was thinking back.

 

Our oldest daughter, Selah was baptized a couple of years ago and a scripture that was really meaningful to her in that process as she was writing out her testimony and just pondering the work that God had done in her life. She really was impacted by a verse I'd love to read because that's another sure way that God does speak to us is through the word of God. So, the Bible, that's always a way that we can hear from Him.

 

But this verse is John 8:47, and it says, “Whoever belongs to God hears what God says. The reason you do not hear is that you do not belong to God.”

 

Chris Allen: (47:07 - 50:09)

Well,  I think the emphasis that I would point out on that is that it's not that God is not speaking.

 

It's the reason you don't hear. So, I believe God's pursuing people even that aren't following Him. And even in our case, I think God pursues us even in our disobedience.

 

But what shifts is our ability to hear. And so, it's like we're tuning in, and that invitation exists for, I think, for all people. It's the opportunity to just tune in more to what God is up to, what He's saying, just by looking at what He's already doing in your life, what's already happening.

 

Just look around, pay attention, start to notice, start to name it. And like I was saying, if this feels overwhelming, which I think it definitely can, the beautiful thing is we were made for this. Our mind was made to work this way.

 

It's how God designed it. And one of the final ways that I pushed this across the finish line with the kids was the final logo that I had was Nike. And of course, not only did every kid in the room know the answer to what the brand was, half of them were wearing it.

 

But if you look back in your life, and this is what I had them do. It's like there's some moment in your life where you were not aware of Nike. You probably were already wearing it, the toddler walking around in it or something. It's all around you.

 

It's everywhere. Everybody else is wearing it too. You've seen tons of ads and advertisements.

 

It's everywhere. Yet there was some moment where you didn't know what it was. If you saw the logo, you'd be like, I don't know what that is.

 

And then at some point you cross this threshold where it's like all of a sudden you learn like, oh, that's Nike. And so, if you could pinpoint that moment in a kid's life, it's like in that moment, you go from like, I don't know, to like, Nike. Well, Nike didn't all of a sudden exist in that moment.

 

It was no more present than it was before. It was always around you. It was always active.

 

It was always everywhere. The only thing that changed in that moment is you became aware of it. And that's how I like to think about like what God is up to in our lives.

 

He is active. He's all over it. He is in your every day and every situation that we're in.

 

And He is inviting us to participate with Him, to notice Him, to talk with Him about it and to interact with Him through those things. But we just have to become aware of Him. And for me, I think wonder is the thing that helps me shift in that direction, just cultivating wonder.

 

Mark Dugger: (50:11 - 50:31)

That's awesome. So you talked about with your kids, asking them and follow up questions about their thoughts. But is there any other practical ways you think about bringing this to life with our kids to help them kind of shape some of this line of thinking?

 

Chris Allen: (50:34 - 52:38)

Yeah, that's a great question. I mean, the other kind of analogy that I've used with my kids as well is where's Waldo? So, my spiritual director, Jeannie Hoover, who's amazing, who lives in Illinois as well, she actually was the one who used this analogy in our conversations first.

 

But you know, where's Waldo's fun? You get the book or the posters and you're looking for Waldo, right? But you have no chance of finding him.

 

First, you can't find Waldo unless one, you believe he exists. Two, you know what he looks like. And three, you look for him.

 

And so that's kind of the starting point. I think an easy starting point with kids, plus you can use the Waldo book and they love it. But they have to believe God exists.

 

They have to know what He looks like, and they got to start looking for Him. Obviously, we can play a very tangible role in helping them kind of learn what He looks like and helping them look for Him. I think one easy way is like, you know, some kind of daily routine, as maybe you're putting them to bed or debriefing the day.

 

Or you might ask a simple question like, you know, did you notice God anywhere today? Or was there anything that happened in your life today, you know, where you noticed God? Or you can also go, I think a lot of times we can find Him in the things that we're struggling with.

 

So, is there anything that happened today that hurt you or didn't sit well with you? But as you help them process that, right, you're kind of looking for where is God in the story? What is he up to?

 

And helping them connect those dots.

 

Mark Dugger: (52:40 - 52:41)

Oh, go ahead.

 

Laura Dugger: (52:41 - 52:44)

Oh, you go first. I wonder if we're on the same thought.

 

Mark Dugger: (52:44 - 54:00)

I was thinking, I was recently, this is helpful for me personally, but I was recently frustrated about a day or something that happened recently. And I was just, you know, going through the iterations of why this thing caused me frustration. And, you know, it caused me to take out frustration on others that were around me and impacted others.

 

And then my friend was just casually kind of listening to me and just said, what do you think God's calling you to do in the midst of this? And it was just such a simple yet profound question that I hadn't even considered. Like I wasn't even thinking about God being active and involved in this frustration that was going on in my life because I was so consumed by it.

 

But yet when I take that moment, I think him asking that question to me, helped me step back out kind of that 10,000 foot view and just say, huh, what, where is God right now in this process? And what is he potentially trying to show me in the midst of this frustration? And I think that's something that our kids can really understand too.

 

They can really grasp onto that concept. So, I think that's been a helpful one for me.

 

Laura Dugger: (54:00 - 54:58)

You're both stirring all these ideas because I also think something that Mark's started recently on a Sunday on Sabbath, he loves to go around the table with our kids. And the youngest is five, as you know, Chris, and he'll ask all of us, where did you see God at work in your life this week? And they are able from a young age to think back on their life.

 

And I think that God does manifest himself to them. But then whether this is a question then for children or adults or everyone, even a conversation that Mark and I have had with you and Rachel before, where when you're going back to something that's happened in the past, asking yourself of that situation, if I go back to that scene in my mind, where was Jesus within that? And that's a pretty profound experience, I would say as well.

 

Chris Allen: (54:59 - 56:56)

Yeah. Well, I think another something that I would encourage people to think about is this is not something that we have to figure out. That's really God's role is to teach us how to do this.

 

I think throughout scripture, the posture of curiosity or wonder is encouraged. Just ask, just seek, just knock. And you will find it.

 

The door will be open to you. And so, I don't think God asks us to figure out how to hear His voice or figure out how He speaks. I think if we come with just a posture of curiosity, which honestly, even that alone takes a little bit of work on our side, right?

 

But if we just cultivate some curiosity about what he's up to, my experience has been that you will start to notice. If you just focus on noticing and being curious, you will start to notice Him. I think sometimes we focus on the outcome.

 

We think the intimacy, like if I could hear God well, if I had a conversational life with God, I would experience intimacy with Him, right? But I think the truer thing is that a lot of the intimacy is in the learning. It's in the process.

 

We just show up, we just cultivate curiosity. And as God teaches us, a lot of the intimacy comes out of the teaching. Like, oh my gosh, that was God.

 

I just saw Him in a way I hadn't before. And so I think hopefully it takes some of the pressure off and allows us just to start to look for Him.

 

Mark Dugger: (56:57 - 57:13)

Yeah. This conversation, I think, has been so helpful just to begin the process of thinking about this. Is there anything else that you want to add or help this message stick or bring home deep within us?

 

Chris Allen: (57:16 - 58:07)

I think I would just say, if you're someone who maybe is not sure that God is speaking, I would just challenge you to pretend that He is. Just try it. Just start looking around, start noticing, and just see what happens.

 

In my experience, God is fully capable of making Himself known to us. If we just take a step in his direction with curiosity or wonder, He will reveal himself to you. He'll start showing you things.

 

And it's not constant, right? But over time, your faith will grow that He is speaking, that He does speak, and it will start to transform how you interact with Him.

 

Laura Dugger: (58:10 - 58:31)

I love it. And I'm going to kind of summarize. Okay, so God speaks to his kids.

 

We get to participate and cultivate wonder. And a practical thing was to pay attention to our thoughts. With all of this too, Chris, you've alluded to a project.

 

Do you want to share any more information about that?

 

Chris Allen: (58:31 - 59:54)

Oh, man. Yeah. So yeah, I've been working on a book for about a year and a half now with my spiritual director, Jamie, who I mentioned, really for adults about wonder.

 

I think we activate and use wonder a lot as kids, especially when we were kids. I think kids are better, more naturally jumping into wonder. The pool of life for adults is away from wonder.

 

It's towards the other side of the brain. It's towards be productive, be on time, be on task, get it done. And the more we fill our lives up with things, which as you all, like in this season that we're in, life is very busy, wonder just so easily gets squeezed out.

 

And so the project I've been working on is really aimed at helping adults cultivate wonder in their life again, specifically around how they interact with God, which probably no surprise at this point in the conversation. But yeah, it's so exciting. I mean, we're down the road, things are starting to solidify, and we got a good bit of work left to do, but I'm really excited about what that will be.

 

Laura Dugger: (59:55 - 1:00:15)

Well, then we look forward to a part two of this conversation when that's further along. We'd love to have you back, but you are already familiar that we are called The Savvy Sauce because savvy is synonymous with practical knowledge. And so as my final question for you today, Chris, what is your Savvy Sauce?

 

Chris Allen: (1:00:16 - 1:00:57)

Oh man, well, I think I might be a broken record on this one. So it's probably a summary statement here, but if wonder is our goggles into the kingdom, the question is how can we put them on more? And so, my encouragement is to leverage the things that are already happening in your life to help you cultivate wonder.

 

And obviously that's what the book is about. So hopefully maybe I can help some people do that more in specific ways once that's out, but that would be my Savvy Sauce.

 

Laura Dugger: (1:00:58 - 1:01:38)

Love it. Well, I think Mark can share as well, but from the two of us, we just love you and Rachel, and Ryan, Ramsey and Harvey. And Mark and I are so grateful you have profoundly impacted us.

 

Just the friendship with you guys has been incredible. And also spiritually, we've learned so much from you and hopefully sharpened one another. And I appreciate the impact that the two of you have had on each other spiritually as well.

 

And I get to enjoy sweet fruit from your amazing and godly friendship. So, thank you for all you shared today. Thank you for your friendship.

 

And thank you for being our guest.

 

Chris Allen: (1:01:40 - 1:01:42)

You're very welcome. Thanks for having me on.

 

Mark Dugger: (1:01:43 - 1:03:04)

Yeah, I was just gonna say thanks. You know, friendship is pretty rare. And it's pretty remarkable just to think about all we've been through together.

 

But yet, Laura summarized it so well, but you've had such a profound impact on me, even in those years, you know, picking me up in high school ministry when we were doing those, those kinds of things together. And then we shared a mentor with Dave Pridemore, who's actually been a previous guest here on The Savvy Sauce. And just learning more about who we are in Christ.

 

And you've always been an encouragement to me. And that's just been such a blessing in my life. Just to know that there's always that constant friendship.

 

And no matter what goes on, no matter how, you know, being states apart, you know, sometimes we're not always talking all the time, but it's always nice to know that you, it's always the same. It's like we picked up right where we left off. And I think that's, that's deeper than just the friendship, but it's the bond that we have in Christ.

 

And that's, you know, you've challenged me in this way, just to think about wonder, this isn't something that comes to me naturally. And so I'm just very thankful for this conversation. And then just to be able to share some of the things that we've talked about privately, but be able to share with this audience today.

 

So thanks for doing that.

 

Chris Allen: (1:03:05 - 1:03:06)

Absolutely.

 

Laura Dugger: (1:03:07 - 1:06:50)

One more thing before you go. Have you heard the term gospel before?

 

It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you. But it starts with the bad news.

 

Every single one of us were born sinners, but Christ desires to rescue us from our sin, which is something we cannot do for ourselves. This means there is absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So, for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved.

 

We need a savior. But God loved us so much, he made a way for his only son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute. This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with him.

 

That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus.

 

We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us. Romans 10:9 says, “That if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” So, would you pray with me now?

 

Heavenly Father, thank you for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to you. Will you clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare you as Lord of their life?

 

We trust you to work and change lives now for eternity. In Jesus' name we pray. Amen.

 

If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring him for me, so me for him. You get the opportunity to live your life for him. And at this podcast, we're called The Savvy Sauce for a reason.

 

We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So, you ready to get started? First, tell someone.

 

Say it out loud. Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision, my parents took me to Barnes & Noble and let me choose my own Bible.

 

I selected the Quest NIV Bible and I love it. You can start by reading the book of John. Also, get connected locally, which just means tell someone who's a part of a church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ.

 

I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps, such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you. We want to celebrate with you too, so feel free to leave a comment for us here if you did make a decision to follow Christ. We also have show notes included where you can read scripture that describes this process.

 

And finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, “In the same way I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.” The heavens are praising with you for your decision today.

 

And if you've already received this good news, I pray you have someone to share it with. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.